Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/V.J. Manzo


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.  Sandstein  17:00, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

V.J. Manzo

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Promotional (and possibly autobiographical) article of an individual of questionable notability. Article creator (Merlingoth88) appears to be Manzo himself - see his Twitter account, blog profile, and Facebook page. While heavily referenced, the majority of the references are to primary sources, linking to Manzo's personal websites or to organizations created by and/or affiliated with Manzo. A Google news search on "V.J. Manzo" shows no significant coverage. Standard search shows a plethora of primary sources, but little that could be called significant coverage. Appears to fail both WP:ACADEMIC and WP:MUSICBIO. MikeWazowski (talk) 04:54, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete - I just waded through all 58 references given in the article. The vast majority is a collection of primary sources. The only ones remotely relevant to notability are several student awards (without secondary sources and of dubious notability themselves), an Independent Music Award (ditto), articles in his university's student newspaper and alumni newspaper, respectively, and possibly a mention in the book Music therapy education and training which I don't have access to. With the possible exception of the one source I cannot read, none come close to showing significant coverage in reliable secondary sources independent of the subject, and the quality of the other sources used to support the same claim as that one does not inspire confidence. He fails both the general notability guideline and, for a lack of sources, WP:MUSICBIO and WP:ACADEMIC. The author has replied on Talk: V.J. Manzo and disagrees, claiming it is a good article. Huon (talk) 06:53, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for wading through these many references. As we both mentioned on this and the general Talk page, the majority of these references are to sources by Manzo. However, as you note, there are some primary sources in there. For example, two scholarly academic books: "Goodman, K.D. Music Therapy Education and Training: From Theory to Practice. Charles C. Thomas, 2011" and "Miller, E. Bio-Guided Music Therapy: A practitioner’s guide to the clinical integration of music and biofeedback. Jessica Kingsley Publishers, 2011" are primary sources. The IMA award Manzo won in 2007 is certainly, as Huon noted, another primary source. Many of the additional sources, many of which are academic journal articles and website news items should be counted toward keeping this page from deletion as they support the claims that Manzo is a notable individual whose research has made an impact. His own works which are referenced present his own unique research which has been accepted largely by the academy as is indicated by his publications, most notably a college text book published by Oxford University Press. This book, which I have read, also references his own unique work and further supports claims to his notability, at least as an academic if not an artist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Merlingoth88 (talk • contribs) 17:13, 6 December 2011 (UTC) — Merlingoth88 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Comment: Miller's book is not a secondary source. Instead, it contains an essay written by Manzo himself. Merlingoth88 may want to read up on what primary sources are and why we should not base articles on them. I have yet to see any work by another person referring to Manzo's scholarly articles. Publishing books and articles, even at Oxford University Press, does not establish notability; what we'd need would be other people writing about Manzo. Outside his university's student and alumni newspapers and possibly that one book which is not available at my local library, that seems not to be done. The sources given for the impact his research supposedly has made are the last seven, in order: The website of a research project by Manzo, Miller's book with a Manzo essay, the Goodman book I can't read, two personal blogs which mention Manzo, and a Brazilian creative dance (?) article which mentions Manzo's name, but does not quote him nor lists his work among its references. For all I can tell it's not itself published in a scholarly journal; it seems to be hosted by the author's university. The one-line mention of his name in an unpublished article which otherwise tells us nothing about Manzo or his work is the best of the six I can read. Somehow I doubt the one source I cannot read is so much better than the rest. Huon (talk) 18:01, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 18:35, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 18:35, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Then may I request that the article be removed from the deletion cue as it was a few days ago so that I, and presumably others, may continue to add secondary sources such as interviews in reliable periodicals and academic publications. I assume these are in existence though I haven't referenced them. I do appreciate the effort you've made in clarifying this for me, and would appreciate time to improve this article without its deletion pending. Merlingoth88 (talk)Merlingoth88 —Preceding undated comment added 19:05, 6 December 2011 (UTC).
 * The deletion discussion will run for a week. That should suffice to show the existence of significant coverage in reliable secondary sources. Huon (talk) 19:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete - Yeah, I'm afraid I'm still in favour of deletion. --Legis (talk - contribs) 08:52, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete as lacking in-depth coverage in reliable, independent third-party sources. Should such sources be integrated into the article feel free to leave a note on my talk page and I'll take another look. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:48, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Question Did he develop " Max/MSP/Jitter". I see from worldcat there are a number of publication on it besides his book? It would seen that the software has notability, even though he might not.  DGG ( talk ) 10:26, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment - I can't tell who developed Max/MSP/Jitter, but it's probably not Manzo. Manzo's book on that subject is available at Google Books, and the book's acknowledgements contain a note of thanks to the "numerous Max developers and artists throughout the world". Sounds like a collaborative project to me. The cycling74 website which offers Max for sale says it has been in use for over 20 years - if Manzo were the developer, he would have been younger than nine at that time. Given the level of detail in which we know Manzo's every accomplishment, I doubt we'd have missed him being a child prodigy. Huon (talk) 13:43, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.