Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Valeri Minkenen


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. L Faraone  02:15, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Valeri Minkenen

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Contested PROD. Concern was "Article about a footballer who fails WP:GNG and who has not played in a fully pro league." PROD was contested on the grounds that he has played in the Veikkausliiga, which is listed as non-fully pro at WP:FPL and does not change the fact that he still fails WP:GNG. Sir Sputnik (talk) 02:24, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions.  Sir Sputnik (talk) 02:25, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  Sir Sputnik (talk) 02:25, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Sir Sputnik (talk) 02:27, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - fails WP:ATHLETE and WP:GNG. GiantSnowman 02:35, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete fails WP:ATHLETE and WP:GNG as a non-notable footballer. DARTH SIDIOUS 2 (Contact) 15:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - Google News, from the articles I put through a translator, only seems to give him trivial mentions, so fails WP:GNG. J Mo 101 (talk) 15:54, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - The fact that several Veikkausliiga clubs have a few youngsters on part-time contracts on their books, certainly does not make the whole league semi-professional. Due to Wikipedia’s anglocentric nature, no one appears to be in any way bothered by the fact English League 1 and League 2 also allow clubs to have semi-pros on their teams or that the link that is currently used to justify the inclusion of League 2 in the list of fully-professional leagues, actually states that the league had at least one part timer in 2008. How many are there in 2010? Zero, five? Anybody knows? How many part timers can the league have in order to be still considered fully-professional, is it just one or seven or 21? Who sets this limit? Sure, from purely formal perspective, operating as a professional club and having a few part time players registered for the club does not make you a semi-professional, or does it? I believe it shouldn’t, but then, as there is no exact criteria, how are we supposed to know for sure? WP:ATHLETE is not a good guideline, fact, not only it is unfair and unbalanced towards different players and does not take players' personal achievements into consideration, but, as I have shown above, it is also unclear and confusing. If half of the energy you’ve put into deleting content from Wikipedia was put into coming up with a decent and fair policy, I bet we wouldn’t have had this problem now. Although I doubt this is even a problem for most of you. I mean, why would someone even care about some Finnish, Lithuanian or god knows what other weird leagues? Right Sputnik? Ban  Ray  16:26, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - Minkenen is a professional footballer and plays in professional team. And also both his previous clubs (FC Haka and AC Oulu) are professionals. I don't really understand these your deletion approaches with Finnish players at all. Minkenen has also played on Finland youth national level (U17, U18, U19, U20, U21).  Todorov-FIN (talk) 21:46, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * None of this changes the fact that he still fails WP:GNG, which is prerequisite to WP:NSPORT. Sir Sputnik (talk) 03:31, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Under which criteria? You failed to address any of the issues I raised above. Ban  Ray  16:06, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have not addressed the points you raised because they are moot in this instance. I'll quote WP:NSPORT: All information included in Wikipedia, including articles about sports, must be verifiable. In addition, standalone articles are required to meet the General Notability Guideline. This article clearly does not. As for under what criteria he fails WP:GNG. If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list. Besides inclusion in various databases and passing mentions in match reports, both which are generally regarded as trivial with regards to notability, I am yet to find any sources that might indicate he is notable. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:27, 20 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep Whether it's good or bad, nearly all athletes meet the general notability guideline, simply because there are so many websites that devote individual pages to each individual athlete on a team. Not every person or event who meets WP:GNG is notable enough for a stand-alone article, and where WP:ATHLETE draws the line is by either requiring that a player represents his or her nation in major competition, or plays "in a fully-professional league".  Were it otherwise, we'd have a friggin' article for every NCAA player in the entire U.S., and every person who ever played soccer football in the world.  It appears that his current league Meistriliiga is not fully professional; assuming that Veikkausliiga is fully professional (it's the Finnish premier league, and pays an average salary of 20,000 Euros, according to its article), then playing for AC Oulu and FC Haka qualifies him under WP:ATHLETE.  If someone can demonstrate that the Veikkausliiga is not fully professional, then I'd say delete. Mandsford 02:23, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.