Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Veem (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Not everyone agrees with the sources Cunard has presented, but there's not enough agreement that they do or don't show we can write a reasonable article on this. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  09:57, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Veem
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Fails WP:NCORP. It has survived two previous AfD's where it was compared against the GNG. The last AfD ended in no consensus in 2017. Regardless I just don't see the depth of reliable independent coverage needed to show notability. The references are mostly crypto-currency tabloids, with a few passing mentions in reputable sources talking about Bitcoin, Ripple and the blockchain. &mdash; Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 21:48, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 00:40, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 00:40, 28 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete - most cites are press release reprints, a lot of the cites are reporting speculative claims that haven't happened yet (and didn't happen), and what remains is too sparse for WP:NCORP - David Gerard (talk) 10:12, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment - The previus AfD discussions were under Align Commerce and can be seen here and here. --CNMall41 (talk) 16:34, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep - You will need to make sure to search for results for "Align Commerce" since that is the company's previous name. In the previous AfDs, I presented sources that meet WP:CORPDEPTH such as Ottawa Business Journal and The Wall Street Journal. A quick search now also shows CNBC and CNN. The company is obviously "worthy of notice" as it has been covered internationally to the point it more than meets WP:NCORP. --CNMall41 (talk) 16:43, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
 * delete would need a complete rewrite, so could have been speedied. We could perhaps have a page on this company (per CNMall41) but this is not it. Please get this out of mainspace. WP:GS/Crypto and just plain old WP:ORGCRIT applies here; we need much stronger sourcing. Jytdog (talk) 17:15, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
 * So with the exception of the page in its current form, would you agree its notable? I don't really care to waste time trying to clean it up if others want to delete despite. --CNMall41 (talk) 17:18, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I removed enough to likely pass speedy, but will wait to do any further until time runs out here. --CNMall41 (talk) 17:24, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  The article notes: "Led by banking giant Goldman Sachs, with GV (formally Google Ventures), Kleiner Perkins, Silicon Valley Bank, Trend Forward Capital, and Pantera Capital also participating, the investment in enterprise-payments startup Veem is primarily a move to accelerate the firm’s exponential growth. Central to the investors’ interest in Veem is the built-in stickiness of the model, which has proved to be adept at turning recipients of Veem payments into Veem users. Since the San Francisco-based company raised its first round of venture capital in May 2015, it has grown from a mere 590 customers to more than 80,000 today. As the price of bitcoin hovers around $6,500, compared with $300 when Veem raised its first round, the company is helping blaze the trail for next-generation bitcoin startups that give customers access to bitcoin’s speed and traceability without their even knowing it. ... This latest strategic investment follows on a $24 million Series B raised in March 2017 and brings the total amount raised to $69.3 million. Lead investor Goldman Sachs made the strategic investment via its Principal Strategic Investment Group, which has been increasingly active in the blockchain space. As part of the investment, Goldman Sachs managing director Rana Yared will join Veem as a nonvoting board observer." The journalist in this article (as in some of the articles below) interviewed founder Marwan Forzely and includes quotes from him in the article.  The article notes: "And yet famed venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins had not joined in the fray — until now. Tuesday, business-to-business payments provider Align Commerce announces that it has closed a $12.5 million series A round of funding led by Kleiner. ... Launched in spring 2015 and already in 60 countries, Align Commerce enables small businesses to skip the hassle and fees of wire transfers and pay vendors globally using the Bitcoin blockchain and traditional bank wire and treasury management rails at much lower cost. Align, in contrast, has a more streamlined email-based system. A vendor sets up an account and invoices the payer, who clicks on a link in the email to enter her bank account information. From her end, it works like a domestic transaction — like paying a local utility bill — and she does not need any SWIFT codes or the bank account information of the payee. Align also offers its customers the ability to track payments, much like a Fedex or UPS tracking system, so both the sender and receiver always know where the payment is in transit. ... Although the company is in 60 countries, customers in only 24 of those countries can both send and receive payments; customers in all 60 countries can receive payments. The hurdles Align faces in offering both sending and receiving services in all countries can be regulatory and operational. For instance, Align needs to obtain licenses for each country (and in the U.S., some states, such as Florida and Washington require additional licenses). It also may find that in some countries, the partner bank can handle incoming payments but doesn’t have the technology to send outgoing transactions."  The article notes: "One exception is a San Francisco-based money transfer business called Veem. Founded in 2014 by Marwan Forzley, who sold his previous start-up to Western Union, Veem is setting out to simplify cross-border wire transfers and payments to vendors and contractors. Veem, formerly known as Align Commerce, uses three methods of sending money: Treasury, SWIFT and blockchain. ... Companies typically use Veem to replace processes that required them to make a trip to the bank and fill out detailed forms. When a customer uses Veem's site to make a payment, Veem's software decides which transfer method to use -- the customer never knows if it's going via blockchain or another method. ... Veem, which raised $24 million last year from investors including National Australia Bank Ventures and GV (formerly Google Ventures), serves businesses ranging from surfboard maker Global Surf Industries and software company Checkster to Bulat Kitchen, which makes knives."</li> <li> The article notes: "Align Commerce, a new startup from an old hand in the payment and transaction market, has raised $12.5 million in new financing to use blockchain technology to create a new cross-border payment technology for small and medium-sized businesses. Founded by Marwan Forzley, a former executive at Western Union, Align Commerce is using the blockchain technology and Bitcoin as an alternative way to transfer money among small and medium-sized businesses in the same way that other companies have leveraged the technology for peer-to-peer money transfers or payments to individual contractors. ... The Align Commerce founder has been working on the company since May 2014, when he left Western Union. The company launched its private beta in October of that year and opened the payment system in April 2015."</li> <li> The article notes: "Align Commerce, which today is rebranding to Veem, is today announcing that it has raised a $24 million round led by strategic investor National Australia Bank (NAB) Ventures, with participation also from GV (Google Ventures), Softbank’s SBI Investment Co., Ltd., Kleiner Perkins Caufield Byers and Silicon Valley Bank. Veem plans to use the funds expand into more countries and add new products. The startup is currently active in 60 countries (you can see the full list of where money can be sent and received here), and makes revenues on a flat $15 receiving fee (it’s free to send); and foreign exchange rates. ... The specific focus for Veem — which was founded by Marwan Forzley, a former executive at Western Union — is SMBs across international borders, an interesting one for a couple of reasons. For one, it taps into a gap in the market: small and medium enterprises have largely lost out compared to consumers and large enterprises when it comes to tech innovations, particularly in the financial world — too specific in their business needs to use consumer services; too small to be able to afford services built for larger companies."</li> <li> The article notes: "If you’ve ever tried to do business across borders, you know how painful it can be to send a wire transfer, wait for the payment to clear the bank and pay a set of fees along the way. Veem is a startup trying to simplify all of that for SMBs by providing a platform to ease the international transfer of funds between businesses. Today, it announced it was opening up that capability to developers in the form of an API. ... The company does not charge developers for connecting to Veem, making it an attractive option for programmers. Instead, it continues to make money off of the exchange rate fees. Veem launched in 2014 and has raised over $44 million."</li> <li> The article notes: "Align Commerce Corp.’s use of bitcoin is invisible and almost irrelevant to its business customers. And that’s how the startup wants to keep it. The San Francisco company, which is announcing today that it has raised a $12.5 million Series A round led by Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, is one of an emerging class of bitcoin-based companies that rely on the digital currency behind the scenes. It’s being used as a tool to provide an improved financial service--in Align’s case that’s cross-border payments for small businesses. That’s different from the earlier crop of startups that attracted venture capital... Align’s customers, by contrast, pay each other using government-issued currency and do not directly deal with bitcoin. Align takes the payor’s currency, exchanges it into bitcoin, and then exchanges the bitcoin to the payee’s currency. In this way, the startup avoids the cumbersome bank wire transfer process, said Marwan Forzley, chief executive and founder, who launched the company after several years as general manager at Western Union. This is Kleiner's first deal in the bitcoin sector. ..."</li> <li> The article notes: "Mr. Forzley’s company, San Francisco-based Align Commerce, made headlines in November when it landed $12.5 million in series-A funding in a round led by renowned venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins. A business-to-business payments provider that sends cash via the Bitcoin blockchain – the distributed database technology that keeps track of all transactions using the digital currency – Align has already expanded its service to 60 countries since its launch last April."</li> <li> The article notes: "Veem announced today that it has closed a $24 million funding round. The startup offers small and medium-sized businesses (SMBs) around the world an easy solution for sending and receiving money. More than 95 percent of all businesses across the world — some 20 million — are SMBs, which represents an enormous potential market. ... Formerly known as Align Commerce, the startup changed its name to Veem as a snappier alternative, Forzley said. “Next time, just Veem it,” he wrote. But it sounds an awful lot like Venmo, the digital wallet that lets you make and share payments with friends. However, Veem distinguishes itself by providing its services to businesses, not individuals. ... Yet it was a bank that funded Veem — National Bank of Australia led today’s round (Veem has several Australian customers), with new investors GV (formerly Google Ventures) and SBI Investment joining. Existing investors Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers and Silicon Valley Bank also participated. This brings the total raised to date to just over $40 million."</li> <li> The article notes: "Moving up the ladder to service businesses, one firm that is proving to achieve cost efficiency for cross-border payments using the blockchain is Align Commerce. Speaking to Marwan Forzley, CEO of Align Commerce, he explained to Digital Currency Magnates that “payments on a domestic level are relatively efficient. The friction occurs when you use different currencies and FX costs get involved.” He added that most B2B payments are facilitated through bank-to-bank transfers via Swift. But while such a system works, there is a lack of transparency in pricing, with bank customers rarely having an idea of the price of the currency conversions in relation to the real market. Also an issue is the time involved with Swift bank transfers which can take up to a week to get processed which leads to pricing risks if currency levels change dramatically. To provide a solution, Align Commerce offers two services to business customers: cross currency invoicing and a cross currency payment gateway for eCommerce companies. The foundation of each service is the ability to allow companies to collect payments from their customer’s currency of choice while receiving it in their local currency."</li> <li> The article notes: "The National Australia Bank (NAB) has announced that its venture capital fund, NAB Ventures, has led foreign exchange startup Veem's $24 million Series B investment round. In addition to NAB, Veem -- formerly Align Commerce -- received funding from Google Ventures, American VC firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, Silicon Valley Bank, and Japanese fund SBI Investment Co. Ltd. The San Francisco-based startup uses blockchain technology to perform cross-border business-to-business payments that are settled and sent in respective local currencies."</li> <li> The article notes: "Veem re­cently dis­closed re­ceiv­ing $24 Mil­lion in new fund­ing. The sum of in­vest­ments from National Aus­tralia Bank, GV (for­merly known as Google Ven­tures), Kleiner Perkins Cau­field and By­ers, SBI In­vest­ments Co Ltd, and Sil­i­con Val­ley Bank will be al­lot­ted for ex­pan­sion into more coun­tries and ad­di­tion of new prod­ucts. The money re­mit­tance com­pany for­merly known as Align Com­merce pro­cesses sev­eral hun­dreds of mil­lions of cross bor­der busi­nesses in­clud­ing OFW pay­ments in over 60 coun­tries. Veem has of­fices in three con­ti­nents. Founded by Filipino tech­preneur Aldo Car­ras­coso in 2014, the re­li­able and real time sys­tem of send­ing and re­ceiv­ing pay­ments via email is de­signed to re­place the com­plex and costly tele­graphic trans­fers, wire systems and SWIFT, by by­pass­ing the banks, or the mid­dle­men. It uses a com­bi­na­tion of pro­pri­etary mul­ti­rail pay­ment systems and the blockchain, de­scribed as one of the fastest grow­ing ar­eas for tech in­vest­ment. The money re­mit­tance com­pany for­merly known as Align Com­merce pro­cesses sev­eral hun­dreds of mil­lions of cross bor­der busi­nesses in­clud­ing OFW pay­ments in over 60 coun­tries. Veem has of­fices in three con­ti­nents. Founded by Filipino tech­preneur Aldo Car­ras­coso in 2014, the re­li­able and real time sys­tem of send­ing and re­ceiv­ing pay­ments via email is de­signed to re­place the com­plex and costly tele­graphic trans­fers, wire systems and SWIFT, by by­pass­ing the banks, or the mid­dle­men. It uses a com­bi­na­tion of pro­pri­etary mul­ti­rail pay­ment systems and the blockchain, de­scribed as one of the fastest grow­ing ar­eas for tech in­vest­ment."</li> <li> The article notes: "More importantly, the system being offered by US-based—and Filipino-controlled—Align Commerce can deliver real-time payments that will be credited immediately to any payee’s account in 66 countries by sidestepping conventional services like the Swift payment structure. ... Launched in early 2014, Align Commerce is seen as one of the hottest financial tech startups, after it was announced late last year that the company received a $12-million funding lead from Kleiner Perkins Caufield Byers (KPCB), Silicon Valley Bank and Recruit Strategic Partners. Align’s reliable and real-time system of sending and receiving payments via email is designed to replace the complex and costly telegraphic transfers, wire systems and Swift, by bypassing banks or middlemen. It uses a combination of proprietary multirail payment systems and blockchain technology, described as one of the fastest-growing areas for tech investment."</li> <li> The article notes: "A Filipino start-up, Align Commerce, made it big in Silicon Valley, delivering a technology that makes global payments easier, faster and cheaper. In late 2015, the company received a $12-million funding from Kleiner Perkins Caufield Byers (KPCB), Silicon Valley Bank and Recruit Strategic Partners and after two years of operation, it has expanded its presence in 60 countries. ... Align’s real-time system of sending and receiving payments via email replaces complex, costly telegraphic transfers, wire systems and SWIFT by bypassing the banks and other middlemen, using proprietary multi-rail payment systems and the “blockchain” – one of the fastest-growing areas for tech investment."</li> <li> The article notes: "Have you always had problems sending and receiving payments from abroad? Aldo Carrascoso found a solution to that. He is the co-founder and COO of San Francisco-based payment service provider, Align Commerce, which enables businesses to quickly and securely send and receive payments in local currency. The company was founded in 2014 and has its headquarters in San Francisco."</li> <li> This is a 20-minute video report about Align Commerce. The article notes: "Financial startup Align Commerce paved the way to a more convenient and reliable platform for sending and receiving payments worldwide just by e-mail, eliminating tedious forms and extra charges. Launched this bank wire replacement service in 2014, Align Commerce is helping SMBs worldwide enjoy efficient and effective payment transactions. Find out how Aldo Carrascoso started and maintained the startup on this episode of The Boardroom."</li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Veem to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 09:54, 30 September 2018 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * Veem (formerly named Align Commerce) has received significant coverage in reliable sources in four countries:<ol><li>Canada: Ottawa Business Journal</li><li>Philippines: CNN Philippines, Summit Media's Entrepreneur Philippines, Manila Bulletin, Philippine Daily Inquirer, and The Philippine Star</li><li>Israel: Finance Magnates</li><li>United States: CNBC, Forbes, TechCrunch, The Wall Street Journal, VentureBeat, and ZDNet.</li></ol> Cunard (talk) 09:54, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
 * A lot of these are funding rounds, which aren't typically considered relevant to WP:NCORP, but others are good - David Gerard (talk) 10:19, 1 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep - Cunard has turned up some sources that sway it for me - David Gerard (talk) 10:19, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment - I've just culled all the dubious sources and done a rewrite from the Forbes Staff and CNBC sources. Short but I think notable enough to have been multiply noted - David Gerard (talk) 10:32, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete. Clearly, not a single reference by Cunard meets the criteria for references to establish notability. Either the references rely on company announcements o they rely on interviews with founders or investors or other related sources, none of which meets the threshold of "intellectually independence" as set out in WP:ORGIND. It states Independent content, in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a sougree with Highking. rce unaffiliated to the subject. Each reference mentioned by Cunard attributes the information directly from the company or from interviews or announcements and therefore fails WP:ORGIND and WP:NCORP. There are a small number of other references where the company is given a mention-in-passing and fails WP:CORPDEPTH, also part of NCORP. Cunard's assertion that there are "sufficient reliable sources" does not take into account that there are additional criteria for references to meet the criteria for notability. If any of the Keep !voters above // can point me to a minimum of two references that meet the criteria for notability, I'll happily review them and change my !vote if they are good. <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 13:52, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete. I agree with Highking. All the refs seem to be influced by PR,and the most they prove is that the company hasa good publicist. Cyrtocurrency related companies usually do ely of publicists for their importance, as there is usually nothing useful to say that is specific.  DGG ( talk ) 08:39, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
 * The sources provide detailed independent analysis of the subject. The Forbes article about Google and Goldman Sachs providing financial backing for Veem notes: "Central to the investors’ interest in Veem is the built-in stickiness of the model, which has proved to be adept at turning recipients of Veem payments into Veem users. Since the San Francisco-based company raised its first round of venture capital in May 2015, it has grown from a mere 590 customers to more than 80,000 today." The CNBC article notes: "Aside from cryptocurrencies like bitcoin and ethereum, there aren't many real-world applications of blockchain, a distributed ledger that allows data to be cryptographically tracked and secured. One exception is a San Francisco-based money transfer business called Veem."  CNN Philippines provides commentary, noting "Financial startup Align Commerce paved the way to a more convenient and reliable platform for sending and receiving payments worldwide just by e-mail, eliminating tedious forms and extra charges."  The Wall Street Journal article notes: "It's being used as a tool to provide an improved financial service--in Align's case that’s cross-border payments for small businesses. That’s different from the earlier crop of startups that attracted venture capital, such as Coinbase Inc., and BitPay Inc., many of which have been trying to enable consumers to buy bitcoin ... Align’s customers, by contrast, pay each other using government-issued currency and do not directly deal with bitcoin.  A company that has received analysis and significant coverage from these very reputable publishers clearly passes Notability.  Cunard (talk) 10:20, 6 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.