Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Velasgutto de Ayala


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Listed for 13 days with no arguments for deletion aside from the nominator. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 23:22, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Velasgutto de Ayala

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Non-notable. Obscure object of an obscure foundation legend of a Castilian noble family. Subject isn't even notable in Spanish. I am unaware of a single English-language source that names him, nor of a Spanish one that gives more than passing notice in reporting the tradition. A Google Books search returns nothing, Google Web only returns Wikipedia mirrors. Agricolae (talk) 05:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions.  —Agricolae (talk) 05:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Spain-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:30, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Weak keep -- If this were the legendary founder of a British noble family, I suspect we would keep it. The fact that he is Spanish should make no difference, But I would have liked to see more (perhaps by cross-reference) as to how notable his descendants were.  Peterkingiron (talk) 22:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Not if such a legend received so little coverage as this 'man'. It is not the fact that he is Spanish that is the reason.  It is that, being Spanish, he hasn't received the slightest interest from English-language sources. Even basing a notability determination on his Spanish coverage would return a verdict of non-notable. He gets mentioned in the 14th century family genealogy, an illegitimate son invented to connect the family to royalty. Since, the story has either been repeated out of course, or given just enough space to dismiss it. This is not notability. Agricolae (talk) 01:45, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:00, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Keep It is a well established principle that what language the coverage is in is  totally irrelevant. If he has received coverage in spanish language sources that is fully sufficient. (see WP:RS)  enWP is merely the encyclopedia written in English. We cover the entire world on an equal basis, subject to the limitations of the predominantly English-speaking  people here to find material. If enough people here could work with Spanish to cover the Spanish-speaking world in equal depth that would be wonderful, but in the meantime we get what we can. with the people we have and the material we can find. I was however very reluctant to say keep on the basis of a single   source. But using alternate names given in the article, I have found some additional ones, and added them.  DGG ( talk ) 05:20, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * DGG may well be correct, but I think a separate biographical article for this person would not be appropriate unless we can find a reliable source that gives basic biographical details. For example, his approximate date of birth and approximate date of death seem to me to be a de minimis (and "fourteenth century" doesn't seem to be specific enough).  I recommend that it shouldn't be deleted without consulting Wikiproject Spain, though.— S Marshall   Talk / Cont  10:03, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. Googling "Velasgutto" I gets lots of hits, but mostly duplicate versions of what's here, or a simple listing in a genealogy or ... Very little in Spanish.  Looking under "Belasgytto" I see essentially nothing except copies of what's here - and nothing in Spanish.  OTOH, founders of royal lines, need to be mentioned, although possibly not in their own articles. ?? DGG, if you can find resources that we can read and check (probably on-line), that would be wonderful (even if in Spanish).  I worry that the print references you gave might only have passing references?  If they are longer, could you explain what they say, perhaps? David V Houston (talk) 12:52, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Let me address several of these issues. First, we are not going to find reliable biographical information on this person - he never existed, and unlike someone like King Arthur or Beowulf, he is not subject of any saga, epic, or other heroic tale.  He was invented as a means to explain how the Ayala family came to possess their lands, and in order to tie this noble (not royal) family to royalty. All of the sources (thanks to DGG, I now see most of them can be found by Google Booksing Vela Ayala Aragon, in no particular order). These fall into two categories. Many (e.g. the surname books) just say that the Ayala family descends from Vela of Aragon. Some give the more detailed account: Vela was a son (youngest, or illegitimate) of king Sancho Ramirez of Aragon (or of his father Ramiro, or a member of the house of Navarre) who went to Burgos and was given (or his son Sancho Vela was given) lands around Ayala by king Alfonso VI.  He became founder of the Ayala family/ancestor of Pedro Lopez de Ayala.  Any time someone does a biography of Lopez de Ayala, they repeat this legend that the Ayalas were founded by this Vela, rehashing the same brief outline first given by Fernan Perez de Ayala (father of Lopez de Ayala) in his 14th century history of the family.  This is all just passing reference and he is of no notability independent of this famous supposed descendants, never mentioned on his own.  Finally, there are a few that mention him only to immediately dismiss the fantasy (e.g. the New England Historical and Genealogical Register reference).
 * There are hundreds of similar invented stories about invented founders for just about every family that ever cared enough to invent one. In England, every noble and gentry family in the 16th century traced their 'ancestry' to an invented companion of William the Conqueror, and none of these inventions are notable. Now, there has been some writing by Balparda and his followers that details an actual Vela who was actually ancestor of the Ayalas, but he is not the same as this legendary Vela.  So, he has not received substantial coverage in reliable sources. When he has been covered, it is only as supposed founder of the Ayalas and ancestor of Pedro, flying in the face of both WP:ONEEVENT and WP:NOTINHERITED.  At best, it could never be more than a stub, but is more likely to accumulate clutter, like the WP:OR just added that would make him son of Sancho II Garces of Navarre, just added.Agricolae (talk) 21:03, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.