Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Venetian Centre-Right


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Tosi List for Veneto. TigerShark (talk) 21:43, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Venetian Centre-Right

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First of all, I premise that "Venetian Centre-Right" was not a party (WP:Original Research by the author of the page) but a mere local assembly group. The page has not any utility, and this is evident from its reading: the page merely states that the group (erroneously defined as a party) existed, then it only describes the previous and subsequent political career of its members. In practice, there is not the slightest relevance from reading this page. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 08:58, 3 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep. It does not really matter what a political party is or is not (see note below) or whether a political grouping is active only in a local assembly: also parliamentary-only parties are encyclopedic, indeed. In our case, the subject is notable, is sourced (additional sources might be found) and deserves an article of its own. The Venetian Centre-Right was a relevant split of the Tosi List for Veneto, the sixth largest party in the 2015 Venetian regional election. For fully three years was active in the Regional Council, at the local level (especially in Verona) and played a distinctive role in Venetian politics. A minor party in a polity like Veneto, counting 5 million people, is definitely more relevant than minor extra-parliamentary parties from small countries, of which Wikipedia is full (and, as an inclusionist, I happy of that too). Wikipedia is great especially when it gathers and organises information difficult to find elsewhere. If, regretfully, there is no consensus on keeping this article, I hope it will be possible at least to merge with another article, like Tosi List for Veneto, in order to keep the article's history. Note. It may be disputable what a political party is. According to Encyclopedia Britannica, a political party is a "group of persons organized to acquire and exercise political power" (like the Venetian Centre-Right!). Several political scientists have given different definitions and categorisations of political parties, e.g. cadre, mass, catch-all and cartel ones. Especially, at their origins, a role is also played by parliamentary parties, that, according to our own definition in Wikipedia, are groups "consisting of members of the same political party or electoral fusion of parties in a legislative assembly such as a parliament or a city council". --Checco (talk) 10:01, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It was not a political party but a local assembly's group, personal interpretations of the nature of an organization are Original researches. Its distinctive role must also be fully demonstrated. Furthermore it is not relevant where this group has operated, but if it meets the criteria of general notability, and in my opinion this group does not meet them. However, as a compromise solution, I could agree to merge it to the Tosi List for Veneto.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 10:15, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Whatever its nature, the subject is encyclopedic, but I appreciate your openness to compromise. I know that Italian politicians and journalists make distinctions between political parties, political "movements", political associations, parliamentary groups, etc., but these have nothing to do with political science and its international standards. --Checco (talk) 10:40, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I re-affirm it even here: it is not the Italian politicians or journalists who distinguish between parties and parliamentary groups, which are objectively and juridically different entities.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 11:18, 3 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Conservatism, Organizations, Politics,  and Italy.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 11:18, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete - 1) it is not a party, but a regional parliamentary group; 2) as regional parliamentary group, it had local notability only at most; 3) no inherent notability: the fact that a party exists/existed doesn't mean it deserves an article in Wikipedia; 4) the first two paragraphs of the article, which are focused on the "party" itself, are without sources; 5) the remaining paragraphs are related to politicians who may or may not have been part of this "party" (no source directly pins them to this specific "party"); 6) finally, almost all the sources don't even contain the name of the article's "party", so I'm asking if it ever existed at all... --P1221 (talk) 14:46, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep, given the length of the article and its number of sources; also agree with SDC's compromise to merge the content with the Tosi List for Veneto article to preserve it, if we cannot agree on maintaining it as a standalone article.--Autospark (talk) 10:07, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Let me point out however that, of all the sources in the article, only one spells out the name of the party... The other ones are valid sources, but they appear to be totally unrelated with the party called "Centrodestra Veneto". P1221 (talk) 09:36, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The party (or whatever we would like to call it) was represented by three regional councillors out of 51 for three years in the Regional Council of Veneto, a region of 5-million people. There are thus official sources regarding the party's presence in the legislative body. This alone should convince anyone on the party's relevance and the opportunity of continuing to have an article on it in Wikipedia. --Checco (talk) 08:40, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * You refer to this subject as a political party, but in reality it was just a regional assembly group, it does not appear that this group has ever undertaken initiatives that have ever given it general notability: indeed, it is almost impossible to find mere news/sources about this group.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 20:57, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Checco Neither a party nor a parliamentary group are notable for the simple fact that they exist: as per WP:ORGCRITE, a political party is presumed notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject.
 * In my opinion, official sources regarding the party's presence in the legislative body are not valid secondary sources (at most they confirm the presence of this group in Veneto's parliament). The party's relevance might be confirmed only if the sources point to the fact that Centrodestra Veneto was able to influence the legislature to pass laws in accordance to Centrodestra Veneto's political objectives. If this happened, however, I'm expecting newspapers would have covered it. As said above, I'm simply struggling to find sources citing Centrodestra Veneto by name...
 * I don't doubt that Centrodestra Veneto existed as parliamentary group (but not as political party), I simply doubt that it was the subject of significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject, so that it was notable enough to deserve its own article in Wikipedia. P1221 (talk) 08:41, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * As final comment, there is an objective difference between "political party" and "parliamentary group". A political party is usually open to general public, not only to members elected in parliament; a parliamentary group is formed only by politicians elected in parliament. The main aim of a political party is to contest elections and possibly elect somebody; the main aim of a parliamentary group is to regroup politicians who share common political goals.
 * A political party might not have a parliamentary group with the same name (for instance, because the number of persons elected is too small to form a political group - example: Azione); a parliamentary group might not represent a political party with the same name (because it represents different parties, which usually do not run under the same coalition - example: Per le Autonomie -, or because a corresponding party hasn't been established - example: Insieme per il Futuro as of today).
 * I think it is wrong to consider a political party and a parliamentary group as the same thing and I think that an encyclopedia shall be very precise on the terminology used in its articles. P1221 (talk) 08:53, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Less Unless (talk) 20:34, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per User:P1221's comments which are actually based on WP policies. Another option would be to merge, i.e. mention its existence in some other article of a more relevant party, if multiple sources certify that such a party Centrodestra Veneto existed. Yakme (talk) 07:02, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comment I think that a good compromise could be the merger with Tosi List for Veneto, since at least 3/4 of the page concerns the Tosi List and not this group.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 21:39, 18 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.