Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vengalil family


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:07, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Vengalil family

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Non notable family. One of the members of this family V. K. Krishna Menon was a notable figure, but that does not mean the family becomes notable by association. No references provided in the page since it was created ages ago and none found on a search as well, indicating our notability standards are not met. Was created by an editor who has spent considerable time editing V. K. Krishna Menon indicating that they may somehow be associated with the subject of this article (probably a member of the family).  Jupitus Smart  01:46, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Hinduism, India,  and Kerala.  Jupitus Smart  01:46, 20 August 2023 (UTC)


 * References seem easy enough to find? Cf:
 * "The frontiers of expansion of cultivation were set by the dominant landowning tharavadus like those of the Vengayil Nayanar, who held two lakh acres of land"
 * "This steady intrusion on the forests had two consequences. First, it brought the new breed of cultivators into competition with the tribal groups practising slash-and-burn cultivation of hill rice. Secondly, it brought to light the existence of bonded labour-both tribal and untouchable caste - in what had been remote fast nesses penetrated only by the overseers of dominant tharavadus like Kalliatty and Vengayil. In 1939, a delegation of the All India Students’ Federation visiting north east Chirakkal had to inform the tribal inhabitants that it was the British and not the Vengayil Nayanar who ruled the country.72"
 * "One of the most illustrious Nayar tharavadus of north Malabar is Kodoth in what is now the Kasargod district of Kerala. The Kodoth family practiced hypergamy. In fact, the famous Vengalil family headquartered near Calicut was formed when a girl of the Kodoth family entered into a sambandham union with a Thirumulpad."
 * "The family papers of Koodali Thazhathu Veedu show that the family had maintained marriage relations with almost all major landowning tarawads of the region like the Kalliat family, Vengalil family..."
 * "A 3000-strong jatha marched from Korome, Erima and other places to meet their landlord, the Vengayil Valia Nayanar in October 1938. After a discussion lasting three hours the jenmi agreed to give up the important feudal levies like vast and nuri and to use the standard measure for rent in kind... The early peasant jathas were directed at some of the biggest landlords of Malabar. The Chirakkal Raja's family owned about 30,000 acres; the Vengayil Nayanar family owned over 200,000 acres, including forest lands; the Kurumathoor Namboodiripad owned 5615 acres and the Kalliat jenmi had 36,779 acres in his possession.
 * "Out of the 689.17 acres of land owned by the temple 589.07 acres were held on lease by one single family, the family of Vengayil Nayanar, a prominent landowning family of North Malabar."


 * These are all from academic sources unconcerned with Krishna Menon, which recurrently call the family "dominant", "prominent", "major", "famous", and so on.

Relisting comment: Rather than quoting some unknown source, please provide a link or some specific references which other editors can verify. Sources don't have to be online but they have to be identified and not merely referred to as part of your search results. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:40, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile, maintaining that VK Krishna Menon is the only notable member of the family is also bizarre. VK Nayanar more or less invented the short story and satire in Malayalam and is canonically one of the most influential figures in Malayalam literature. VK Chinnammalu Amma was a central figure in Malayali feminism and literature. Raman Menon was the Dewan of Travancore. VA Janaki was the chair of the geography department at Baroda College/Maharaja Sayajirao University of Baroda and a leading Indian geographer, especially of Kerala. All are discussed as such in the literature. It's not clear to me how exactly Sir C.P. Ramaswami Iyer is related to the Vengalils, but he's definitely notable. Etc. 2806:107E:15:1C4A:482E:D3E6:D000:7389 (talk) 02:09, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It is unclear where you are quoting these lines from. Having 1-2 notable people like Vengayil Kunhiraman Nayanar and V. K. Krishna Menon does not make the family notable. Also, the entire country was ruled over by many feudal vassals in the 1800s. None of these references indicate that the family was any better than the other feudal landlords who also owned lands.  Jupitus Smart  11:51, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment - the article references 2 books. Has anyone looked at these?
 * Krishna Menon: A Biography by T. J. S. George (1965)
 * V. K. Krishna Menon: a personal memoir by Janaki Ram (1997)
 * Why wouldn’t these establish notability? The first book is about one Menon but it could cover other family members.
 * — A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 02:03, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with you. It looks as though the author of this article was trying to pen down his egoistic thoughts into wiki. Just 2 or 3 notable members from the family does not make the family themselves notable(Also Vengayil kunhiraman nayanar was from the vengayil family, which is another family. The Vengalil's were a Menon family). There were many menon families who related to royals of kerala by marriage and this seems like an advertising campaign for the family. In addition to that, as you mentioned, there are no proper sources. Many such Menon families like the Ankarath, Vadakke kuruppath, Ambat etc. were equally wealthy and produced eminent personalities but I don't see them having a separate wiki page. Like I mentioned in the Talk page, this article needs to strictly kept to family discussions and blogs rather than on Wikipedia. I completely agree with you on the deletion of this article from Wikipedia. Pedia.01110 (talk) 05:34, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting as I believe the IP's comments are, in effect, an unbolded "Keep" so Soft Deletion is not an option. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 00:13, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete Notable individuals don't make the family notable per WP:NOTDIR.— TheWikiholic (talk) 05:42, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete: No indication the family is notable. Notable individuals don't make the family notable per above.  // Timothy :: talk  01:57, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:SIGCOV, WP:RS, WP:MILL, and WP:NOTINHERITED. The argument for "keep" appears to be that there have been books written about the family, without evidence that this is significant coverage, or that the books themselves are reliable sources. By all accounts, this is a run of the mill, land-owning caste or clan. With the exception of Presidential families or very well-known celebrities, families of even famous or notable people are not by themselves notable as a group, and arguments otherwise are untenable, based on 20-plus tears of precedent here at AfD. Bearian (talk) 15:28, 9 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.