Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Verandah, Isle of Man


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Other than the nominator, I don't see anyone else seriously arguing for deletion. Rather, there seems to be a consensus to keep. ~Amatulić (talk) 15:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Verandah, Isle of Man

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No evidence of notability; content should be merged into the history of the TT races; and/or a description of the whole course Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:50, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Europe-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:04, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:04, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:04, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Nomination to keep the article as it has encyclopaedic value. The Snaefell Mountain Course is unusual in its length at 37.73 miles. Articles describing certtain parts of the course has value. The Verandah a series of bends on the A18 Sneafell Mountain Road is an important part of the circuit. There has been discussions by other contributors on Isle of Man TT notce boards about how the history of the Isle of Man TT and Manx Grand Prix should be developed. Merging into a general description of the course or the history of the Isle of Man TT would be over-long and unhelpful and avoid some previous problems of multiple contributions by different editors. Agljones 11:10, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep Historically a sigificant viewing point which is shown on outline course maps. I have added some content and sources, but, regrettably, I moved-on through ebay some years back all of my post-1979 sources including some copious course guides and I'm not confident of turning anything 1960s up in the house, but some should be available - suggest refimprove tag rather than AfD. The Isle of Man government in conjunction with TV coverage have invested heavily to provide programming on free-to-air channels and the TV commentators regularly mention any TT course vantage point when adding voice-overs, often to footage from on-bike cameras and heli-cam, particularly on these mountain sections where the bikes are faster than the 'copters. Therefore the main vantage points should have searchable separate articles, IMO. The main structure has already been established, so it would be counter-productive to delete a few - the three which have been proposed for deletion would rate at 11-20 on a scale of importance starting at 1, but I would also advocate that some should be consolidated, eg Bedstead Corner to be combined with nearby The Nook, Isle of Man as a prime candidate being historic but minor, not major viewing points (this latter comment for the above editor).--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 22:12, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I have now had the opportunity to go through contributions to ascertain that the same editor has nominated for deletion - or intends to nominate - many more TT Course locations than I originally surmised. From the AfD list below, the majority are arguably 'world famous'; the other three are minor and could be retained and merged into preceding and following locations as appropriate, with name-changes and redirects. The standard of the content is often poor. Glen Vine

Crosby Cross-Roads

Barregarrow

Sulby, Isle of Man

Sulby Bridge

Ginger Hall

Kerrowmoar

Verandah, Isle of Man

Windy Corner Gardener's Lane Ballahutchin Hill Glenlough User  has striven, along with others, to establish articles which should be retained and improved. Using the catch-all ploy of 'notability' is inappropriate where consecutive historic physical localities are involved.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 23:53, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 12:42, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment Diffs below from the nominating editor dated 3 November on landmark TT locations - the whole doesn't work with pieces of the jigsaw missing. Taken together indicates a concerted effort at retrograde deletions concerning a series of related articles. Some articles could be merged together and remain searchable, but not imported into over-lengthy articles such as "the history of the TT races; and/or a description of the whole course" as stated in the nomination. Admittedly the stubs are poor and often have been abandoned, but other forms of banner-waving would be more sensible and possibly more productive - I haven't the time to monitor and improve, at least for the remainder of 2014. Sulby - "rm infobox, pending its deletion" B'garrow - "replace infobox, pending its deletion" Glen Vine - "rm infobox, pending its deletion"--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 11:55, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:AGF has not been suspended. The "its" in "its deletion" refers to Infobox Isle of Man TT course, not the articles. It's also tiresome to see that you've posted the above at multiple locations. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:18, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I already figured that out; articles can have more than one infobox. Where there is a village article existing, it needs a section developing, deletion is not the way forward. As stated, I don't have the time to do it; I can envisage the format of improvements, but it's unlikely to eventuate with the risk of one individual making a unilateral decision to delete and it's too much trouble for others to get involved in. Once again, Wikipedia is the sufferer.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 13:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Verandah is not a village; it is, the article under discussion informs us, "a series of bends on the primary A18 road" - and a series of bends for which no evidence of notability has been offered. I have just replied to your identical comment at Articles for deletion/Windy Corner. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:06, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep: Per ESPN Verandah appears to be a Dead Man's Curve in motorcycle racing as a site of fatalities and hence most likely notable. In kind of a macabre way. Covered in a major third-party publication; article itself close to Start Class.  Montanabw (talk)  20:05, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep: The article Verandah, Isle of Man has notability as it is a well known part of the Isle of Man TT Course. It is also important to the history of the Isle of Man TT Races after a fatal accident to a competitor that resulted in the Isle of Man TT races losing its World Championship status.  It is also a part of the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road which is an important major road in the Isle of Man and therefore has notability and also has encyclopaedic value.  In 2007, I rewrote the Wikipedia article for the Snaefell Mountain Course and removed a long list of names of corners as it had been plagiarised from a publication about the Isle of Man TT races including a number of inaccuracies and incorrect information.  The current format of the Wikipedia article has a much improved structure and information can be easily added when it becomes available and due to its success has been translated into other languages on Wikipedia.  To return to the previous 2007 format for the Snaefell Mountain Course is not a viable alternative.  I created separate articles for each of the more famous parts of the Isle of Man TT Course.  However, other contributors have added extra articles and then abandoned them without trying to extend the articles or improving them.  I have had problems with editing conflicts of many Isle of Man TT articles including incorrect information and problems with editing style.  It may not be understood by editors reviewing many articles about the Isle of Man TT Races it is difficult to find and research information and present it in a way to provide encyclopaedic value or to conform with Wikipedia editing standards and rules.  Many of the articles that you refer to have been deliberately written in a style that is low-key in respect to the fatal accidents to competitors during the Isle of Man TT Races and Manx Grand Prix Races.  Also, there has been personal problems, editing conflicts and problems with trying to maintain the low-key style with contributors and editors in regard to the Wikipedia article the list of fatal accidents to competitors on the Snaefell Mountain course.  I have tried to maintain a certain style for these Isle of Man TT articles and there has  been previous problems of multiple contributions by different editors and some Isle of Man TT articles have been subject to a Wikipedia deletion policy and then later successfully reinstated.  I am currently in the process of a complete rewrite of the main Wikipedia Isle of Man TT and the proposed amalgamation/deletion process is unhelpful. Agljones 21:47, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.