Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Villains in Mighty Morphin Power Rangers


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. The current consensus here is fairly clear, that this article in particular does not pass the notability guidelines. Keep !votes have not been founded in policy and thus bear little weight in the discussion. Considering a similar article exists and is currently under consideration at AFD, if somebody would like to merge the two I'll provide the text — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:40, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Villains in Mighty Morphin Power Rangers

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

As substantially similar to an article deleted at Articles for deletion/List of Power Rangers villains  MBisanz  talk 22:46, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak delete I'm a bit on the fence here. What we have is way too much plot emphasis, tiny details about nonessential characters, and a whole lot of OR. That being said, this could be a viable article if we limit the list to just the big baddies who were threats for at least a season or so, and not their minions or one-off bosses. The fact that this is just plot summary tips the line to delete; any viable article would need real-world commentary or background information on the important characters.  Them From  Space  05:27, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 22:18, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 22:18, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 22:18, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: You know it would be good if you notify WT:WikiProject Tokusatsu that a article within its scope is up for AfD. Anyway, I notified WikiProject Tokusatsu about this AfD. Powergate92   Talk  17:24, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I hadn't thought of that because I don't know the topic area and started the AFD as part of the close of another AFD.  MBisanz  talk 17:28, 22 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep: A list of characters of from notable television series (all antagonists), the inclusion of which on the parent article would clutter it up. It's not really the same as the previously deleted page (but I don't know what was there to begin with; I assume it was just a list summarizing the other lists). There's plenty that can be removed from the page though.— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 17:31, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've gutted the article of the monsters of the week/day to leave just the big bosses and related recurring characters. To be quite honest, if this was part of a list that included the protagonists and antagonists I doubt this would be up for deletion at all.— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 17:40, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Courcelles 01:05, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

 
 * Keep - Let this page stay. We should have full information on the villains that appear in this show and brief descriptions of it's monsters. Rtkat3 (talk) 2:37, December 26 2012 (UTC)
 * Reason why the page would meet our guidelines ?Folken de Fanel (talk) 02:25, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Courcelles 03:17, 31 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 05:17, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * AfDs are not votes.Folken de Fanel (talk) 02:25, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe you didn't grow up watching Power Rangers, but I did. It had Villains; too many to count. I figure a list is justified. PortlandOregon97217 (talk) 10:19, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually I did grew up watching Power Rangers and had all the action figures at some point. AfDs still aren't votes, though. I encourage you to find policy-based reasons to keep the article, otherwise the closing admin is unlikely to take your comment into account.Folken de Fanel (talk) 16:52, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep as list appears to be a summary style parent to multiple existing villain articles. No objections to merging some of them to here if appropriate, and no objection to trimming excessive plot summary, but I see no policy-based reason for deletion. Jclemens (talk) 08:00, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NOTPLOT + fails WP:LISTN.Folken de Fanel (talk) 02:25, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "There is no present consensus for how to assess the notability of more complex and cross-categorization lists (such as "Lists of X of Y") or what other criteria may justify the notability of stand-alone lists"— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 01:18, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Maybe I'm mistaken but this is not a "more complex and cross-categorization" list. 2) WP:NOTPLOT, being policy, trumps any other criteria you may want to argue for concerning the notability of stand-alone lists about fiction.Folken de Fanel (talk) 11:59, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I was more under the "what other criteria may justify the notability ofs tand-alone lists" and plot shit can be edited out instead of throwing out a list page.— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 12:27, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand but you have to make sure the other criteria don't actually conflict with existing guidelines and policies. Besides, don't you think that if we remove all the plot shit the page is left almost blank, without even solving the notability issue ? I think it would be easier and more consensual for you to argue for clean up + merge rather than to blindly stick to conservation.Folken de Fanel (talk) 12:32, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It's already a list split off from a parent article. Why would it be merged back into said article?— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 12:35, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right, Mighty_Morphin_Power_Rangers is essentially that list minus all the plot shit. I thus see absolutely no reason for that list to be separate if its only purpose is to add plot shit that violates WP:NOTPLOT.Folken de Fanel (talk) 12:43, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * So basically, and I'm not going to bother posting it twice because I'm just going to be making the same point, you count WP:NOTPLOT as having any sort of discussion of the plot. Your determination as to what makes a list page valid for deletion pretty much includes every single dedicated character list I've ever come across on this project. And that all we should include on a list of characters is the actor who portrayed the role without any sort of fictional character biography. Doesn't seem very encyclopedic to me.— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 12:49, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You're the one who talked about "plot shit" being "edited out" but yes, if, basically, the only purpose of this list is to have plot shit, then it is worthless. Also, I'm sorry, but this is for the sake of our debate: there is absolutely no plot discussion in this list. Please stop making any incorrect use of the word discussion, and talk about plot description or summary instead. Discussion is when something is discussed/analysed/commented on/debated on in secondary sources. That is not the case here and I'd appreciate if you stopped misrepresenting the content of this list. Thanks.Folken de Fanel (talk) 15:34, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, what the hell is supposed to go on lists of characters? Fictional character biographies exist on this project in various forms for all works of fiction. And if it seems that the characters that are listed on this page and have separate articles aren't worth keeping, then those should be merged to this one with whatever reliable sources might exist and it should be used for what it is, a list of fictional characters, of which there are thousands on this project, all of which have plot "description" and I don't know what you mean about "misrepresenting the content of this list". It's a list of fictional character biographies and links to other articles for a specific group of antagonists from MMPR. I don't know if I've ever said anything different other than your insistence that I'm not using a single word right.— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 16:45, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * And why the hell should we have lists of characters ? WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't a good enough reason. Plot points or bios, if necessary, can already be summed up in the main articles, we don't have to make endless lists of every plot point that ever existed. Lists are supposed to have some use, they're not the "throw everything that doesn't fit anywhere else" magic bag. Wikipedia isn't an indiscriminate collection of information. Lists aren't a magic trick to bypass WP:NOTPLOT.Folken de Fanel (talk) 17:03, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Because people are clearly interested in the characters enough that the information about them cannot be kept within the descriptive text of the work of fiction they come from.— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 17:06, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This boils down to "what a bunch of fanboys want" vs "what the community as a whole wants WP to be". This was settled long ago and I don't want to waste my time anymore. All I can tell you is that wikia is a better place for the kind of content you want. Folken de Fanel (talk) 17:12, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd rather be boiled alive than edit a fan run Wikia in this topic area.— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 17:15, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Then maybe you can understand why stuff like "Because people are clearly interested in xxx" is not the best argument you could find. A line has to be drawn somewhere if we don't want WP to become another wikia.Folken de Fanel (talk) 17:23, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * On a Wikia all the content I removed in a diff I posted at the top of the page would have its own separate article. I'm aware that the article in its current state is crap but that can be fixed by cutting out entire plot summaries, and leaving only a much more protracted fictional character biography. And one of the main reasons I want to avoid Wikia is because the fans despise me for taking a stricter stance on sourcing on newer pages (and also because I force the usage of official translations of Japanese text over what they take to be more looser yet accurate translations or whatever).— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 17:37, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mediran  ( t  •  c ) 10:13, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak delete, as per Themfromspace. 1292simon (talk) 10:49, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep Meets WP:LISTPURP as a valuable informative source. Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 13:20, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * With only 3 entries leading to actual articles, I don't see how WP:LISTPURP would apply here.Folken de Fanel (talk) 16:52, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is cruft, a long list of trivial tidbits about non-notable characters in a kids TV show. I thought we wuz writing an encyclopedia here, which is a book of important things. Drmies (talk) 15:55, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Do you have proof that the characters are not notable? This is just a spinoff list after all, and it can be proven that the subject of the parent article is notable.— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 01:16, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Seriously? Oozemen? Hatchasaurus? And that's being kind--an encyclopedia should find its secondary sources in published books and printed articles of the highest quality. Remember, we are talking about Power Rangers here, not about brains or countries or Shakespeare plays. You and I probably have different ideas about what an encyclopedia is, but fortunately there's WP:RS and WP:V to make some kind of demarcation between an attempt at a real encyclopedia and a list of Lego toys and TV show characters. Drmies (talk) 05:18, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You cherry picked the worst choices from the list which just shows that those two are probably not notable on their own. You could probably find mentions of the major antagonists on this page somewhere in the depths of this search. Hell, Goldar gets name dropped in this result on page 2 (although most of these articles seem to be about violence on television or gendered marketing).— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 07:17, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't purposely pick the worst ones. I picked two, and they happen to be terrible. I hadn't looked at any others, but to appease you, I picked another one, from the purportedly notable ones (notable since there's an article): Goldar. The article is terrible, tagged as unreferenced since 2008, consisting mostly of plot and description based on--on what? original research. Try to look for sources--good luck. I searched and found that Spin magazine once described him as "a big freak with wings", and that's all they had to say (I added it to the article--you're welcome). No, this is cruft, and the associated articles don't seem to be any better. Drmies (talk) 15:14, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * So that just means Goldar isn't notable on its own and it should be merged into this article. I can find references that mention and describe Rita Repulsa (some mentions of Lord Zedd and Ivan Ooze too) throughout Google Scholar:, , , , , , , , . And while I can't access all of them at the moment, it would seem that she is important to discuss if all of these child psychology articles are to suggest.— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 17:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you find a reliable source that discusses Villains in Mighty Morphin Power Rangers as a topic? Something more than some entry in a fancyclopedia that merely lists them? Because the validity of this article stands or falls with the validity of the topic in its own right. Even if none of the ghost ships in Ghost ship are notable, it's still a viable topic because the concept of ghost ships is well attested. I don't see that being the case for this article. (See also the difference between Angels in Islam and Demons in the Marvel Universe--the one is an article, the other a collection of crufty descriptions.) Again: not mentions of these villains, that's nothing--in-depth coverage of the concept. Because you have latched on to my "non-notable characters", but the main thrust is the "trivial tidbits"--that is, the article is full of factoids but there is no concept of villainy in this TV show that's been discussed in reliable sources, as far as I know. Remember, this isn't a list; that one's already gone. Drmies (talk) 17:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This article is simply not a list in name but it is one in function. And that AFD had so many problems. And from the multitude of sources I provide, the bulk of them discuss the fact that because there's the dynamic between good and evil in the show, it leads to issues in informing children of fantasy violence and the like (and also because half of the cast was females it did something with marketing. I'm not sure. I can't read the articles at home).— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 17:52, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Just a note to Ryulong that per WP:BURDEN and WP:AFDFORMAT, it's up to the users who want to keep an article to prove it's notable, not the other way around. And per WP:N, mere mentions are not proofs of notability.Folken de Fanel (talk) 08:05, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * In one of the articles I saw they mentioned one of the characters specifically as an example for gender equality, but seriously these guidelines you're bringing up are for individual items and not the list as a whole.— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 11:34, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:LISTN, which is for lists as a whole, is a part of WP:N (and as I said above, though LISTN does leave room for more possible criteria, the remark doesn't supercede actual policy like WP:NOTPLOT).Folken de Fanel (talk) 11:59, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * NOTPLOT is an editing rule rather than a notability guideline. Also, how can you not discuss the plot when the article is a list of fictional characters?— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 12:27, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "Any other content not suitable for an encyclopedia" is a valid reason to delete per WP:DEL, and NOTPLOT is part of WP:NOT. Besides, I see no plot discussion here, merely plot description.Folken de Fanel (talk) 12:43, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep There are four things on the list notable enough to have their own main articles. Rename this to say "list of" before its current title, and its fine.   D r e a m Focus  17:14, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) You don't provide any policy-based reason to keep the article. Your comment can be discarded by the closing admin. 2) That articles exist don't mean their necessarily notable.Folken de Fanel (talk) 17:18, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * See LIST. And no matter how much you argue with everyone in AFDs and deletion reviews, you don't seem to ever convince anyone.  Do you not understand how list articles function on Wikipedia?  And don't tell administrators how to close a discussion.  Unlike you, I'm sure they know what a list article is suppose to be.   D r e a m Focus  17:50, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Folken, Dream Focus is correct. There's no need to point out the obvious to the point of badgering. Drmies (talk) 17:53, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * To DF: see WP:NOTPLOT. Do you not understand what Wikipedia is not?Folken de Fanel (talk) 20:06, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand there are thousands of list articles just like this, that have been around for years. I understand that over the years I've seen hordes of articles like this one go to AFD, and they are never deleted, because they are perfectly valid list articles.   D r e a m Focus  22:53, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep as legitimate subarticle of parent article, Power Rangers, which would get too unwieldy. Villains are an essential plot element and a directory of them is a good compromise. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:45, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: The AFD that spurred this one has been at DRV for a week.— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 16:42, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: What's the deal with all of pages in this template? Are they all deleted or redirected? J u n k c o p s (want to talk?|my log) 05:43, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * They're all still there. What made you think they were deleted or redirected?— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 05:53, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge into Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. This list does not meet WP:Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists, which says "Being articles, stand-alone lists are subject to Wikipedia's content policies, such as verifiability, no original research, neutral point of view, and what Wikipedia is not, as well as notability guidelines;" all of which this this does not meet. As well, this list does not meet the general notability guideline for which it should per WP:Notability, which says "Notability guidelines apply to the inclusion of stand-alone lists and tables." Powergate92   Talk  20:41, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Merging into the parent article is not a suitable choice as this is not a standalone list as much as it is a subarticle. If this were to be merged anywhere, it should be into some not-yet-existant List of Mighty Morphin Power Rangers characters page (as would any individual article on single characters).— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 22:02, 11 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Note that List of Power Rangers villains is at AFD again, having been relisted after deletion review. So we're having the same discussion in two different areas for basically the same thing.   D r e a m Focus  10:59, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete. The list is only very sparsely sourced (WP:V), and none of the sources covers the topic of these villains as a group, making the list fail WP:LISTN.  Sandstein   22:31, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Since when have lists of characters not been suitable topics?— Ryulong ( 琉竜 ) 22:48, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.