Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vinod Chaubey


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. The strength of the "keep" arguments hinges on the notability conferred by the Kirti Chakra award. While this was discussed, no consensus was reached. &mdash;Darkwind (talk) 05:52, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Vinod Chaubey

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There is no notability outside the ambush incident.  A m i t  웃  20:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC) * Delete as per nomination. At best this is a merge to the ambush incident.  A m i t  웃  00:30, 4 September 2013 (UTC) Note: I've struck out the 'delete' !vote here - this is implicit in the nomination, and you don't get to !vote twice. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep : Vinod kumar Chaubey was awarded Kirti Chakra Gallantry award. RouLong (talk) 20:44, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No offense on his gallant sacrifice but every year multiple soldiers get it(there is not even a list that is maintained for kirti chakra let alone articles for the kirti chakra honored soldiers). Being first in a newly formed state of chattisgarh is not something to create an article about.  A m i t  웃  00:30, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. No evidence of notability beyond the incident which led to his death. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC) Note: Please consider reading WP:INDAFD which includes some points about WikiProject India AFDs. Those may or may not be applicable here. Tito ☸ Dutta 04:24, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete. Not notable outside of the ambush incident. His medal is a standard "2nd class" gong (no offence meant). The sources also say he violated standard operating procedure and was lured to his death. He was also carrying a mobile phone with him at the scene of the ambush which contained his private informer network's numbers which subsequently led to their elimination.TheWikiIndian (talk) 18:15, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment : Vinod kumar chuabey was presidential award (twice) winning police officer, first of Chhattisgarh Police personnel to get Kirti Chakra award by President of India. These credentials clearly make him notable enough to have a Wikipedia Article. RouLong (talk) 02:37, 5 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Do not delete : Vinod kumar Chaubey and his sacrifice are is very important to the people of Chhattisgarh and as far as saying that Chhattisgarh is a newly formed state, it is considerable enough to note that no other IPS officer in the undivided state of Madhya Pradesh (out of which Chhattisgarh was carved) has ever won a Kirti Chakra. As far as the comment about not following Standard operating procedures are concerned, I don't think he would have recieved the Kirti Chakra if the Government thought so. Also he was behind the successful elimination of the Maoist Urban network in the cities of Raipur, Durg in which a life sentence has been awarded to two naxalite cadres, Malti and Meena, the former being the wife of the Naxal spokesperson Gudsa Usendi. The excerpts from the book 'Lets call him Vasu' Shubhranshu Choudhry are notable. Considering his achievements and his sacrifice, I think he has more than enough reasons to stand a place in wikipedia. It must also be noted that the Chhattisgarh Government in his honour has launched a book that is being taught in all primary schools of Chhattisgarh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.79.143.234 (talk) 07:33, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Do not delete : Shri Vinod Kumar Chaubey sacrificed his life fighting for his nation. He Sacrificed his life fighting the undemocratic force which has been termed as the biggest threat to our nation by our own Prime Minister. Before his sacrifice, he blasted the urban intelligence network of Maoist in Raipur. All the person arrested have been convicted till date. Also, he has been awarded Kirti Chakra, the 2nd highest award for bravery given by the Honourable President of India. He is also the 1st person from the state of Chhattisgarh who has been awarded Kirti Chakra. He has been an inspiration for the person in the force and the young crop who is willing to join the force. Deleting this article would mean that Wikipedia does not believe in respecting the true martyrs of India who selflessly sacrificed their life for their country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.161.7.103 (talk) 07:46, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Do not delete : Shri Vinod Kumar Chaubey has been one of the very few police officers brave enough to take a stand against the Naxalite menace which has been terrorising the state of chhattisgarh and eight other states together termed as the Red corridor for more than 3 decades.The naxalite insurgency has been noted as the single greatest threat that independent India faces today by the highest authority in india,the Prime Minister himself.As such the efforts of Mr.V.K chaubey against the scourge that is naxalism has been noted as being Pivotal by both the state government and the government of india(indicated by the latter awarding him with the kirti chakra posthumously).Deleting this article would mean ignoring the importance of the efforts of one of the very few significant persons who have been involved in this 3 decade long bloody war between democracy and insurgency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.161.7.103 (talk) 07:46, 7 September 2013 (UTC)   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.168.234.121 (talk)


 * Do not delete : It is a well known fact that the police force of our country is one of the most politicized institutions of civil administration, added to this staff shortage, lack of modern equipment , infrastructure and coordination with the other security agencies make the task of a high ranking police officer indeed very challenging. Unaffected by all these structural constraints shri Chaubey put forth an extraordinary effort in dealing with the menace of naxalism ,in its hottest bed , the region known for its tribal orientation and lack of connectivity.He showed tremendous planning skills and patience while he unraveled the urban naxal communication structure . Not only this , during the course of his career he was posted in some of the most serious LWE districts where he faced multiple threats , attacks and bullet injuries on course to ultimately sacrificing his life on the lines of duty. The reports also suggest that he entered the ambush thrice , rescued his injured subordinates to safety before facing a bullet on his face. He could have just as easily stayed out of it after having crossed the ambush for the first time . This martyrdom of an upright police officer deserves recognition beyond a medal. Thus this article must be preserved in the Wikipedia inventory to honour our true soldiers and inspire the future generations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.202.230.53 (talk) 10:43, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. Please note that this is not a vote. It is a discussion as to whether this article conforms with Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and can be kept accordingly. Multiple postings from anonymous IPs all making the same arguments, none of which appear to address the issue of whether the article conforms with Wikipedia notability requirements, are unlikely to have a significant effect on the final decision. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:02, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment You are right. Such things should not be decided on voting, but on contructive discussions. The posts, like mine, are anonymous may be due to the fact that i am too lazy to create a wikipedia account. so this must not be the concern for the debate. What i am saying that this article should remain in wikipedia as the person has done a notable contribution for his country,has been awarded one of the most prestigious gallantry award of the nation, is held as a source of motivation for the children and the personnel in the Police training. People are quoting anonymous sources regarding his not following the SOP's and Kirti Chakra award being a second grade award whose record not being maintained. So i would like the debate to remain in an objective and constructive path so that we have a better, reliable and evolving wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.161.7.103 (talk) 13:51, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Please see Notability (people). Notability isn't determined by 'gallantry', but by the degree of enduring in-depth coverage of the subject matter, as seen in published reliable sources. It appears that Chaubey has received little coverage in such sources for events other than his role in the events that led to his death. As such, normal Wikipedia policy is to cover individuals only notable for a single event in the article covering the event - in this case, the Rajnandgaon ambush. This should not be seen as a statement by Wikipedia that we in any way minimise his role, but instead as a normal editorial practice. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:13, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Awards merit under WP:ANYBIO #1 "The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor". Some described Kirti Chakra as a "second class gong" above and I'm not seeing that. He also won other award so obviously a local officer outside the norm. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 18:24, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment : Chhattisgarh always have been in the receiving end of media's apathy. National media was covering the fallen pillar of Delhi Metro, when 29 people were killed on 12th of july. The same apathy was seen when 76 security officers were killed in Tadmetla ambush in Chhattisgarh. It was not covered properly by the national media. That is why such articles should not be deleted from Wikipedia, so that people know about such incidents, such sacrifices, which many of times get unnoticed by the national media. We can see the difference in media coverage when a incident happens in Mumbai or Delhi. There is also difference between coverage of incidents of "Religious extremism", and Left wing extremism, Maoism ,Naxalism. As Religious extremism is a global phenomena, and Naxalism is a local phenomena( as per media reporting), even though the latter has caused greater life and property damage. I am not going to gain anything from this article, but still i want this article to remain in the wikipedia as it is only providing knowledge about a person who lived a selfless life. Life of a person is not determined by how long he lives, but by the quality of life he lived. Even 1 act of selflessness makes a person shine among the lesser mortals who criticize everything and everyone, but don't act to make it better.


 * Comment : I would also like to bring the attention of the moderators of wikipedia to a page on Durga Shakti Nagpal, an IAS officer who has been in the news after her suspension. Wide media coverage of her suspension after her alleged crackdown on the sand mining mafia has made her a popular figure and people has also created a page of her on wikipedia. My question is simple, does wikipedia only recognizes the person covered with hue and cry by the national media, even if there is not much substance. I am not compairing the achievements of the two respected public authority, but only pointing to a discrimination based on populism. Sir/ madam, contribution must not be measured by the popularity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rishabh09 (talk • contribs) 13:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This page is solely intended for a discussion as to whether the article concerned meets the relevant Wikipedia guidelines and policies. Please stay on topic, and confine any comments to the matter at hand. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:43, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment : We are here to discuss whether this page is worthy enough to be on wikipedia. My earlier arguments are just supporting my main premise that this page is worthy enough to be on wikipedia. But problem here is the people who are deciding the worth are very subjective in their approach. Decision should be objective and should be based on a person's impact on the various dimensions of the society. But many other personalities have their page owing to the popularity in media. So please read my comment based on the contextual argument, rather than a competitive subjective opinion.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.161.220.81 (talk) 15:10, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Decisions will be made according to Wikipedia policies and guidelines. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:14, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep : Clearly falls under the category WP:ANYBIO. Terming Kirti Chakra as a 'second class gong' is uncalled for as the relevant article clearly suggests its importance by stating it as second in order of precedence of peacetime gallantry awards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdm.bb (talk • contribs) 13:43, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * A simple question. How many Kirti Chakra's have been awarded? WP:ANYBIO gives states that "a well-known and significant award or honor" can be considered sufficient to establish notability - but where is the evidence that the award is significant? The sources cited for the award consist of a press release from the Indian government Press Information Bureau (which includes the award as one of three for unrelated incidents), and a single paragraph in The Hindu. This doesn't look like evidence for a 'significant award' to me - and if it is significant, evidence to demonstrate the fact will need to be provided. So far, all we've seen is unsubstantiated assertions. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:58, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sourcing in India is problematic see WP:INDAFD so the level needs to be kept in context, coverage there honoring people is not as prevalent as other countries (as explained in INDAFD). The question is if this award is significant - it is the second highest peacetime decoration in India. Thus in US terms it is equivalent to the Presidential Citizens Medal (second only to the Presidential Medal of Freedom). I don't think anyone would argue that the Presidential Citizens Medal is not a significant award, likewise for the Kirti Chakra. The number of medals given has to be kept into context that India has over a billion people. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 16:33, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You have not answered the question. How many Kirti Chakra's have been awarded? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:52, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think that information is available online. However we can make a rough estimate based on facts known. We know this is a military award given in peacetime (sourced in the article). We also know that the Indian Airforce (IAF) has received the award 34 times total (up to 2005). We know the Indian Navy has received it 5 times.  If we extrapolate the Air Force number by a generous 10 times for all the other military branches and police, that brings it up to 340 awardees, which over the course of the award history is 6.4 a year on average. By comparison an equivalent US award, Presidential Citizens Medal, is awarded about 3.9 times a year during its lifespan - however the USA has a population 1/4 that of India meaning the Indian award could be seen as more rare, on a per capita basis, since we would have to multiply the 6.4 by 0.25 to account for pop difference. So there is a lot of room in that 6.4 figure, for example we could double the number of awards to 680 and it would still be in the same ballpark as the US award. Let's say it was 680, it would be statistically odd if the airforce, one of the main four branches of the military, only had 5% of the total awardees, so probably not as high as 680. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 05:05, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

I do not have the exact number of recipient till date, but wikipedia itself revealed that it was awarded to only 35 brave person till the year 2005. This makes this award highly prestigious and as compared to Padmashri award,if we only talk about numbers. Kirti Chakra awardee not only gets due credit by the government of India through the press release by PIB, also it is covered by the National print, paper and AIR. It is unfortunate that Andy only reads PIB and The Hindu, otherwise he would have seen the wide media coverage of the Award in all the local and national newspaper. So kindly remain objective during the debate and don't make a comment with partial knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.161.107.124 (talk) 16:31, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment : i think your lack of knowledge is creating a problem here. Kirti Chakra or Ashok chakra class 2, is the second highest award given for bravery in our country at peace time. It is equivalent to Mahaveer Chakra, which is awarded during war time. Its record is duly maintained by the ministry of Defence and the Honorable President Secretariat.
 * That's right, I don't have 'knowledge' regarding this award - which is why I am asking for evidence that it is of the necessary level of significance to justify the article. As is always the case with Wikipedia, it is down to those who wish to include material to provide the necessary sources. Which still isn't being done. Instead, all I'm seeing is unsourced claims. If this award is significant, prove it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:50, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Evidence, well lets just start objectively here, the second highest award for gallantry in the USA is the Distinguished Service Cross and wikipedia, the platform we are having this discussion on and the official website of The Government of India says that Kirti Chakra is the second highest award for gallantry in India which is a peacetime equivalent of the Mahavir Chakra. As is widely construed, wikipedia does not favor a particular country so it goes without saying that when more 50 recipients of Distinguished Services Cross can have articles then this page does deserve to stay. Although, it is sad to 'prove' the significance of this award, which the president himself bestows with full state honor. If we talk about numbers, an estimated number of 13400 Distinguished Service Cross' have been awarded till date and that does not make it any less of an honor, does it? So the number of Kirti Chakra awarded is totally irrelevant here. The 'significance' of this award is proved just by saying that it is the second highest award for gallantry in India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdm.bb (talk • contribs) 17:31, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Nope. Evidence that the award of this medal to Chaubey was notable would consist of substantial coverage of the fact in multiple sources. Such evidence has not been provided, and pulling numbers out of a hat won't make any difference. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:03, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Andy, if u do not have the knowledge about something then you should neither exaggerate your claim, nor reduce your opinion. Here you are continuously asking about the valor and pride pertaining to Kirti Chakra, and how big an award is that. Lets talk some statistics here, Padma vibhushan Awards, the 2nd highest civilian award in India has been awarded to 288 people till date, and Kirti Chakra only to 35 person till 2005. It is awarded vary rarely and to the person who has shown immense bravery and valor for protecting their country, and most importantly it is given by the President of India, not by any private organisation whose credibility can be questioned. If person of USA, who have won Distinguished service cross can have their wikipedia profile. If person who have only got suspended and have the limelight of media can have their wikipedia profile. Then why you are denying the person who has proved his valor to the Head of the Republic of India? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.161.243.12 (talk) 17:58, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment :


 * Yet more pointless unsourced assertions... AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:11, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Unsourced : kindly see the wikipedia page of Kirti Chakra and Padma Vibhushan 1sta nd then comment. I think you are being ignorangt on purpose. You have not given any objective argument, only your subjective opinion. Better prepare 1st and then come to an adult discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.161.53.249 (talk) 06:30, 10 September 2013 (UTC) 
 * Comment : Pointless: i have given you the example of how rare is the Kirti Chakra award and how is it awarded by the highest executive of the country. Still you are saying that it is pointless.
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 17:43, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * My objective argument is that there has been insufficient evidence provided from published reliable sources to indicate that Chaubey meets Wikipedia notability guidelines. We do not cite Wikipedia articles as a source - not that the articles back up your claims anyway. Either provide the necessary citations to back up your claims, or stop wasting other people's time. And as for 'adult discussions', I'm not the slightest bit interested in arguing with clowns who try to rig discussions by signing in multiple times under different IP numbers. This doesn't work - the closing admin will I'm sure take note of the multiple identical comments, all failing to actually address Wikipedia notability policy, and act accordingly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:58, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The citations are in the Wikipedia article, and further, they have already been linked by me on this very AfD page for your convenience. And you totally ignored it, while continuing this conversation as if no one has provided sources! Your either not paying attention or engaging in rhetorical games. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 18:55, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Citations for what? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:27, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment : 1. Press information bureau is the most authentic source of material in India. If it says that Kirti Chakra or Ashok Chakra class 2 is the 2nd highest award for valor, then there is not much scope for any argument.

2. Referring to the fellow debaters as "clowns" has berated your argument standard. Kindly maintain the dignity of Wikipedia and this page.

3. IP address in itself is an identity of a person. You should not worry about the identity, but about the dimensions of the debate. My name is Rishabh Shukla, and i don't sign in to wikipedia every time i open my web browser.

4. Its is also your onus to provide the source which makes you to say that Kirti Chakra is not as honorary as Press Information bureau, The president of India, Ministry of Home Affairs, and Ministry of Defense, claims to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.161.59.35 (talk) 16:37, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment : Keep per WP:ANYBIO Wiki policy. RouLong (talk) 22:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.