Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Virgil's Root Beer (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. The discussion cites sources to support GNG for both articles; and the promotional issues are a matter of, as pointed out, WP:DINC (non-admin closure) RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:38, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Virgil's Root Beer
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This article seems to be written like an advertisement, and is not very notable. I am also pairing this with Reed's, as these two articles both have the same problem with a neutral point of view (and read like an advertisement for their company). I-82-I (talk) 02:02, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
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 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. North America1000 02:17, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Connecticut-related deletion discussions. North America1000 02:17, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Connecticut-related deletion discussions. North America1000 02:17, 15 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Reed's. There is no third-party sourced material to merge otherwise that would have been my recommendation. There are sufficient sources to oppose outright deletion. BiologicalMe (talk) 15:51, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Change to keep both based on Cunard's more thorough search. BiologicalMe (talk) 12:41, 18 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete Virgil's Root Beet for sure. I would argue that even Reed's might is potentially deletable; the only coverage of it is in beverage industry-specific articles (questionably notable from my reading of WP:AUD), and the rest of the sources seem to be primary. WhinyTheYounger (talk) 20:29, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: I based my assessment on available sources, not sources used. I did not think there were enough third-party sources to support a stand-alone article for Virgil's as individual product, but there are some.example The Reed's ginger ale campaign that named Canada Dry garnered modestly broad coverage.. The failed merger with Jones Soda shows that coverage was not just a blip. I probably should have proposed a technical closure on the basis of a inappropriate WP:BUNDLE since an individual product (featured over the parent company) and a publicly traded manufacturer whose eponymous product happens to be ginger beer is not "nearly identical to root beer", and the early editors differ. BiologicalMe (talk) 14:16, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Keep Virgil's Root Beer per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.     <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li><li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> </ol>

<ol> <li> The article notes: "But Virgil's is different. This high-end root beer (if the notion is not too absurd) is pure and clean, with a clarity of flavor that leaves you wanting more, rather than wondering what possessed you to drink the whole bottle. Originally brewed in England, Virgil's now comes from the Beverage Corporation in Los Angeles. It is one of the few sodas these days to use cane sugar, which imports a clean, crisp sweetness, rather than corn syrup, which I find strong and unpleasant, with a metallic aftertaste. And unlike so many other root beers, Virgil's has components that are all of the earth, as was true when the term root beer was coined. The ingredients include vanilla, licorice, cinnamon, clove, wintergreen, nutmeg and molasses, and all are clearly discernible in the blend. The major sticking point is the price: $2.29 for a 12-ounce bottle, twice the price of most other boutique sodas. ..."</li> <li> The article notes: "Virgil’s Root Beer, Virgil’s Bavarian Nutmeg Root Beer. Originally made in Germany and the UK by a New England enthusiast, Virgil’s was purchased by Angeleno Chris Reed (Reed’s Ginger Brew) and seems to be everywhere lately. Virgil’s root beer is delicious -- very rooty, with a texture that’s more silky than creamy, and flavors on the spice-and-licorice end of the root beer flavor spectrum. Bavarian Nutmeg Root Beer is rich and spicy, “the vintage port of root beers,” one taster said, and, yes, you can taste the nutmeg. Both made with cane sugar. (Available at Aero Market, Beverages & More, Bristol Farms, Cost Plus World Market stores, Galco’s, Sainsbury Deli, Whole Foods. Root beer only available at Mani’s Bakery in Los Angeles, [323] 938-8800; Mel & Rose Liquor & Deli; Trader Joe’s markets.) Virgil’s Cream Soda. This has a good real-vanilla flavor, but it’s light. It doesn’t knock out your taste buds, but opens up slowly and has a soft, pleasant finish. It would make a wonderful float. (At Aero Market, Beverages & More, Bristol Farms, Cost Plus World Market stores, Galco’s, Mel & Rose Liquor & Deli, Sainsbury Deli, Whole Foods.)"</li> <li> The article notes: With the current popularity of micro-brewed beer, it's little wonder that Virgil's Root Beer, also micro-brewed, is catching on among the too-young-to-drink set. Virgil's is brewed in the north of England from Lake District water. Made from real roots — sassafras, licorice, and ginger — Virgil's wins industry awards and deserves them. This old-time drink, popularized during Colonial times, tastes strong and zippy, not diluted like most modern root beers. Imported by Crowley Beverage Corp., of Wayland, Virgil's comes in 15-ounce bottles with closable spring tops (about $3.50) or in packs of four 12-ounce bottles (about $6). Taste it, and you'll understand why Shakespeare called this "small beer."</li> <li> The article notes: "Virgil's ($3.99 for four bottles) This all-natural, microbrewed concoction bills itself as the Dom Perignon of the root-beer world, but our judges begged to differ. It was deemed 'too strong' with a 'faint alcohol taste'; one suggested it might be better 'warmed up and sipped by a fire.' The word 'unpleasant' was used not once but three times, as was the word 'syrupy.' 'Yuck' turned up only once, but that's more than enough, don't you think?"</li> <li> The book notes: "Virgil's Root Beer—1994 Outstanding Beverage (English-style root beer). The firm was purchased in 1999 by Original Beverage Company, which specializes in brewed ginger ale. Original Beverage principal Chris Reed was a friend of Virgil's Root Beer founder Ed Crowley. Reed purchased Crawley's company after Crawley passed away. Virgil's Root Beer is still on the market, but its new owner's focus is on brewed ginger ale. The company reports that it is the number one ginger ale in Trader Joe's upscale grocery chain."</li> <li> The article notes: "If you want a four-pack of Virgil's Root Beer, be prepared to plunk down a cool $6.79 (before taxes). But then, maybe that's not so extravagant for a soft drink that gets its anise from Spain, licorice from France, vanilla from Madagascar, cinnamon from Ceylon, clove and nutmeg from Indonesia, cassia oil and wintergreen from China, sweet birch and molasses from the United States, pimento berry oil from Jamaica and balsam oil from Peru. What's more, the prestigious Hammacher Schlemmer catalog offers it. ... Certainly, Virgil's doesn't lack for marketing chutzpah. Its Web site boasts that Virgil's is to root beer as 'Dom Perignon is to champagne.' ... Virgil's: Smell and taste are faintly redolent of molasses, which it contains. Taste is pleasant but too busy. Head has little staying power."</li> <li> The article notes: "Virgil's, one of the newest entrants, has quadrupled its annual sales to 135,000 cases in the two years since its introduction and its winning of the Outstanding Beverage Award at the 1994 International Fancy Food Show. Made with 11 exotic flavoring agents and no preservatives, it originally was imported from England by Weyland, Mass.-based Crowley Beverage Corp. Now it is produced in a Cincinnati brewery. Crowley has promoted the brand as a gourmet product and sponsored a recipe competition at the Culinary Institute of America. Recipes from the institute's students included a cheesecake, a rice dish and the winner, a prawn tempura batter and dipping sauce."</li> <li> The article notes: "The rest of the lot fell into the middle - though they weren't offensive, they weren't completely noteworthy. If you're looking for a completely all-natural one to try, Virgil's did shine through in that respect. The flavors weren't super strong, but every flavor that could be detected (anise, wintergreen, clove) was from a real ingredient and not an artificial flavor."</li> <li> The article notes: "Not many root beers fill these idealistic demands. Here are the ones I tasted, in order of preference. Virgil's Special Edition Bavarian Nutmeg Root Beer (Imported from Bavaria by Crowley Beverage Corp., Wayland, Mass.; 500 milliliter glass bottle). Very rich, dark brown color; pure, deep, scintillating spice, vanilla, anise, very rooty, creamy and lively, dense sweetness but not cloying, a complex blend of the medicine cabinet and the kitchen spice box. Exceptional. ... -- Virgil's Root Beer (Imported from England by Crowley Beverage Corp., 12-ounce glass bottle). Very dark amber; baking spice, fresh pine, clove and anise, mild but true flavors, creamy. Excellent."</li> <li> The article notes: "Virgil's Root Beer is rich and creamy, and stands up to either ice cubes or ice cream. It is stocked at Whole Foods Market and the East-End Co-op."</li> <li> The article notes: "Called Virgil's Root Beer, the beverage is made in small batches in an appropriately small brewery in Chester, England. Sassafras, anise, licorice, cane sugar and spring water from England's Lake District are used to make Virgil's. It is also brewed naturally rather than carbonated under pressure with carbon dioxide gas as most other soft drinks are today. The president of the company that imports Virgil's to the United States says it is comparable to root beers made in American Colonial Days when many taverns and families brewed their own. Virgil's Root Beer is being distributed in Tampa by Moudy Distributing. Look for it in restaurants, bars, gourmet shops and delis."</li> <li> The article notes: "Virgil's Root Beer: Tawny color. Layers of flavors, wintergreen, anise. Sweet but not cloying. Preservative-free."</li> <li> The article notes: "The microbrewing revolution in the beer industry is extending to the soft+drink industry with the introduction of Virgil's Root Beer, hand-brewed in Chester, England. The premium product - retailing from $2.20 to $3.99 a bottle - has been on the market less than six months but has found distributors in 35 states, says.Marc Berliner of Consolidated Beverage Corp., the importer of Virgil's. The makers of Virgil's use natural ingredients - anise, sassafras,!licorice, and pure cane sugar - as well as spring water from England's Lake District. Its spring-top stopper bottles are the same type bottle used during the Victorian period."</li> <li> The article notes: "'America is the only place that drinks root beer,' said Chris Reed, president of Reed's Inc., the producer of Virgil's Microbrewed Root Beer. 'When we have samples of Virgil's at international food shows, non-Americans think we're joking.' Nonetheless, Americans -- or at least many Americans -- love root beer. The last decade has seen the introduction of a number of premium root beers such as Virgil's, which is made with cane sugar, anise from Spain and Madagascar vanilla. The sodas allow people who grew up drinking root beer to trade up to artisanal takes on their beloved beverage."</li> <li> The article notes: "Fans of 'real' root beer can rejoice: Virgil's Home Brew Rootbeer is being imported from England in a 15-ounce corked bottle. The root beer is made with spring water, sassafras, licorice, anise, molasses and cane sugar. The bottles can be recycled; customers who collect 24 bottles can get concentrate and brew their own root beer. Virgil's is available at the Mount Washington Cafe & Deli, at Sutton Place Gourmet, and at Eddie's of Roland Park. Retail price is under $3 per bottle."</li> <li> The article notes: "When they see the five-litre keg of root beer, children might lose their minds. They won’t care that Virgil’s is the only micro-brewed root beer or that it has a smooth and creamy depth of flavour. They will stare at you blankly when you tell them that Virgil’s is made with Madagascar vanilla, Ceylon cinnamon and Spanish anise. And it’s probably best not to mention that, because it’s not overly carbonated, this root beer mixes well with bourbon. It’s best to just pick up a keg and bring a world of harmony to your next barbecue."</li> <li> The article notes: "Some brands, like Virgil’s and Dry, have a national profile and Big Soda — much like Big Beer did with craft beers and ciders — has taken notice."</li> <li> The article notes: "Virgil's Medium foam head that fades quickly. Complex herbal scent and flavor — nutmeg, licorice, wintergreen. Also contains something called 'pimento berry oil.' Unusual, slightly medicinal finish. So many flavors that it tastes a little different with each swig. ... Virgil's Special Edition Yup, six bucks for a bottle of root beer, albeit about half again as big as a regular bottle and with a porcelain stopper similar to that of Grolsch beer. Another medium foam head that fades quickly. A swirl of aromas — honey, molasses, roasted spices. The flavor is well-blended and smooth. But six bucks? Only if you're absolutely passionate about root beer."</li> <li> The article notes: "With the judges clamoring for more, Virgil's root beer, a dark, creamy-rich brew, was named 'outstanding beverage' at last year's Specialty Food Show in New York. A tasting at the Tribune test kitchen was resoundingly positive as well, bringing visions of black cows to mind. Virgil's is made in Chester, England, for a Massachusetts company. It's flavored with an intriguing blend of old-fashioned herbs and a goodly dose of vanilla. Virgil's is packaged in old-fashioned swing-top bottles. Jill Fraser Crowley, president of Virgil's Root Beer, reports that the second-usage on the bottles is extraordinarily high. The resealable bottles are ideal for home brewing beer or root beer."</li> </ol>

There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Virgil's Root Beer to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 10:06, 18 June 2020 (UTC)</li></ul>

<ul><li>Keep Reed's per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.<ol> <li></li> <li><li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> </ol>

<ol> <li> The book notes: "That said, let's stick with beverages and examine the value chain activities of a company with $30 million in annual sales, Reed's Inc. ... Strategy in Action: Reed's World of Ginger Anyone like ginger beer? If so, you may be familiar with Reed's, the company known for its ginger-flavored products, including its award-winning, nonalcoholic ginger brews, ginger teas, candies and chews, and even ice cream. Started in 1989 by Chris Reed, the company today sells its products in natural and organic grocery stores, such as Whole Foods Market, gourmet cafes, online (Amazon.com), and even drugstores. As a point of reference, a four-pack of 12-ounce Reed's Ginger Brew retails for about $7. In relation to Coca-Cola and Pepsi, Reed's is a teeny-tiny company. So how does Reed's successfully go up against these Goliaths? By doing a value chain analysis of Reed's, you will gain important insights into the company's operations and how it delivers unique and targeted value to its customers. ... Beginning in 1987, when Chris Reed began tinkering with brewing processes for sodas, Reed's has been a small but nimble competitor whose core activity is product innovation. For Reed's to stay ahead of its pack, its culture of product innovation needs to permeate its firm infrastructure. A critical component is its human resource management of hiring, training, and retaining employees who can come up with the next generation of ginger-based products. These include herbologists, foodies, and even health 'nuts' who embrace and promote the health benefits of Reed's products. Two specific aspects of Reed's technology development help the company create unique, premium products. First is its deep knowledge of, experience in, and expertise in manipulating (i.e., innovating) ginger into a variety of consumable products. Second is the brewing process the company has perfected over decades. ..."</li> <li> The article notes: "Reed is founder and chief executive of Reed’s Inc., which produces a line of natural sodas. And he’s a fan -- some might say a fanatic -- of the pungent herb. ... Reed’s Inc. competes against much larger companies by catering to health-conscious shoppers. The 18-year-old company calls its drinks “quality of life” beverages that are free of artificial flavorings, colorings and processed ingredients. ... Now, the company has 32 employees and produces 25 million drinks a year. Its products are sold in 7,000 stores in the U.S. and Canada, including Trader Joe’s, Whole Foods and Ralphs. ... In January, Reed’s settled a $2.6-million lawsuit filed by Consac Industries Inc., which accused Reed’s of negligence in manufacturing Prism Green Tea Soda for Consac. Reed’s, which contended that Consac supplied a defective formula, paid $300,000 to settle the suit."</li> <li> The article notes: "Tags placed over the necks of soda bottles are offering customers the chance to buy shares for $4 each directly from the company in an initial public offering that Reed hopes will raise as much as $8 million. ... But some analysts say Reed’s sales of just $9 million in 2004 make it too small to be considered a smart play for investors. The stock would be traded over the counter -- not by the New York Stock Exchange or another large exchange -- and could be overlooked by investors and financial analysts. ... Kathy Smith, a principal at Renaissance Capital in Greenwich, Conn., said potential investors should scrutinize Reed’s stock prospectus and financial statements. “It’s an interesting come-on,” she said of the direct-to-consumers IPO. “But investors have to look at the real stuff that is going to matter and make sure it’s the right thing for them.”"</li> <li> The article notes: "Even before he wrote this letter, Chris Reed had never had much of a taste for authority or for other people's restrictions. Sure, it was aggressive to promise that he would be on the OTC board within nine months. But he was an iconoclast, an outlaw in this business world of rules and paperwork. He had been ever since he started his little natural-soda company, Reed's, from his kitchen, in Venice Beach, California, in 1987. Back then he was a burnt-out chemical engineer who had taken a sales job at 1-800-Dentist while trying to conjure up a company. He liked the taste of ginger, and while studying herbs, as one tends to do in Venice Beach, he learned that ginger soothed stomachaches and motion sickness. He began brewing a spicy ginger beer and tinkered with the concoction for a couple of years. Once the brew satisfied him, he bought 90 pounds of ginger, cut it up by hand, and threw it in the back seat of his Volkswagen Bug. He drove to a local brewery to borrow a vat and used a canoe paddle to mix the ginger with water, roots, and spices. He poured that into some bottles, slapped on some labels, and drove the Bug to health-food stores, delis, and a Philly cheesesteak joint to sell test batches. Then he stuffed some bottles into his backpack and wandered to the Natural Foods Expo West 1990, where a couple of big distributors liked his product and signed him up. He was in Whole Foods by the end of the year. He had no idea that that 1999 letter would kick off an extended entanglement with the very people he was trying to avoid: the lawyers, the bankers, the regulators, the state officials, the people who believed in rule books and orderly procedures. By the time he wrote the letter, Reed's had revenue of $4.2 million, and Reed wanted to buy an L.A. warehouse and turn it into a brewery. He decided to raise the money through a special, non-IPO offering for small businesses called a Small Corporate Offering Registration, or SCOR, which lets companies sell up to $1 million worth of stock to the public without having to go through Securities and Exchange Commission reviews. ... Nine months into the 12-month offering, Reed had raised only $50,000 and was about to shut it down."</li> <li> The article notes: "With the aid of a loan from his father, Reed launched his first batch of ginger brew for less than $5,000 in the summer of 1989. He sliced 90 pounds of fresh ginger by hand, brewed the product at a small brewery with no bottling operation, bottled it on his own, slapped on labels with a stick of glue, and loaded 36 cases into the back of his VW bug for distribution at four local stores. ... Reed’s is also the only soft drinks business in the world to package its brew in a five-liter keg — a selling point for both the thrifty and the environmentally conscious. The company packages its spiced apple brew and top varieties of its ginger brew in champagne-like bottles to compete with brands like Martinelli’s, an attempt it says proved highly successful in California supermarkets. In addition, the company offers a one-liter swing-lid bottle, fashioned after that offered by European beer maker Grolsch. “We’re creatives. We do unique packaging that other people don’t,” says Reed. ... Marketing expert Seth Godin, however, thinks Reed’s success boils down to the fundamental fact that its product is good. “It’s so easy to think that marketing and the product are two different things, but they’re not. Their product is different, it’s spicy. People talk about the drink for what it is — and not because they’ve changed their bottle.” ... While entering the mainstream is an understandable ambition for any niche company, Gary Hemphill, managing director at the Beverage Marketing Corporation issues a caveat. “These companies can’t get caught up competing directly against the giant companies. They certainly can’t compete against them on price.” His advice is that companies like Reed’s should “play up their uniqueness in their marketing. That’s their value in the marketplace.”"</li> <li> The article notes: "With new ginger wellness shot bottles hitting shelves next month, the “craft” soda company Reed’s has a new, concentrated burst of innovation as it enters its second full year based in Connecticut, after moving its headquarters to Norwalk from Los Angeles. ... Under Chris Reed, who created the company in 1989, Reed’s gained an early cult following in taking on Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, Cadbury Schweppes and Canada Dry, first with its ginger beer and then with its purchase a decade later of Virgil’s and its line of root beer. But in attempting to capitalize still further on that early name recognition, Reed attempted to branch his company into other lines of soft drinks, including those bottled for sale under other company’s labels, struggling with production issues and denting profits over time. With losses growing, Reed’s directors named as board chairman John Bello,who gained industry fame building up the South Beach Beverage Co. and selling SoBe to PepsiCo. Bello chose Stalowir as CEO to lead a turnaround of Reed’s."</li> </ol>

There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Reed's to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 10:06, 18 June 2020 (UTC)</li></ul>
 * Keep: Strong keep for both articles since they undoubtedly pass notability per Cunard's comment above. Maybe doesn't meet NPOV and needs a cleanup, but certainly doesn't warrant a deletion because of it. -  Harsh  14:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.