Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vivien Keszthelyi (4th nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Very clear consensus that the article should be kept. (non-admin closure) Bungle (talk • contribs) 19:02, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: this debate outcome has been vacated to procedural no consensus. Please refer to Deletion review/Log/2021 February 25 for more extended comments. Daniel (talk) 22:35, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Vivien Keszthelyi
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log )

Repeatedly-recreated promotional biography of a racing car driver who only races in Formula 3, which isn't "fully professional" within the meaning of WP:NSPORT. DGG says on the talk page that this might be speediable, but since the last AfD it was accepted at AFC by Primefac, and also, the outcome I'm seeking is not just delete but delete and salt -- so I felt AfD was the best venue. —S Marshall T/C 12:57, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. —S Marshall T/C 12:57, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 13:06, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Motorsport-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 13:06, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Hungary-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 13:06, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 14:05, 17 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete - I can only find passing mention in English language sources. NickCT (talk) 14:07, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * and Salt - Article created by sock puppet. NickCT (talk) 14:08, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * English language sources are NOT required. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:30, 18 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete, salt and take to SPI as this seems to be a long-running story. ser! (let's discuss it). 15:43, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Having re-reviewed the sources and the editing history of this article, updating my vote to keep. ser! (let's discuss it). 23:46, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete and salt afterwards to make sure the article isn’t re-created again. D🐶ggy54321 (let's chat!) 16:47, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Strongly Keep - I consider this an extremely rude move. I went to the talk page, I have requested proof of content problems, got no replies, and instead of the discussion the same people again start an AfD. This is not good. --grin ✎ 21:48, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment - It has been pointed out before, but I'll say again that WP:NMOTORSPORT is questionably useful, in large part due to the questionable definition (and example) of a fully professional series. And arguably she satisfies point 3 "Competed in a series or race of worldwide or national interest" (whatever that is supposed to mean) since she competed in the W Series which it is certainly possible to argue is of wordwide interest (indeed if deleted she'd be the only red linked driver who competed in the 2019 W Series, although she was a promoted reserve driver). I'll also note that Articles for deletion/Vivien Keszthelyi (2nd nomination) was passed as keep since, as far as I can tell there is some substantial coverage in non-English sources, in particular in Hungarian (hence this article having equivalents in several languages). I can't assess the reliability of the sources given (by, for example, User:Largoplazo in the 2nd nom discussion), and much of what I've said above could be described as WP:OTHERSTUFF, some am not yet going to give a !vote, but I'd hate to see an article deleted for the wrong reasons. A7V2 (talk) 21:59, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * (She is en route to Formula 3 (international), and was suggested to target Formula 1 but since she's Hungarian it seems impossible for financial reasons. The Hungarian article seems more updated than this one, especially since all edits seems to be reverted. --grin ✎ 22:10, 17 February 2021 (UTC))


 * Keep - Notability is established, i don't even know how anyone would want to delete this article. it has over 30 reliable sources, the Hungarian article has even more, including serious newspapers, specialized sport magazines, television reports on large country-wide channels... You know, people outside of the UK/USA are notable, too... Xia talk to me  22:05, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * and just as comment, since when is it a requirement for notability that the sources have to be in English...? Then we wouldn't have content about 90% of human knowledge, which Wikipedia aims to accumulate, if I am not mistaken in my 15 years spent as a Wikipedian... Xia talk to me  22:08, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * English-language sources are preferred but not required. WP:NOENG. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:30, 18 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep - it is really disappointing what I read on the talk page. You want to delete an article because somebody recreated it, but you cannot say what is the problem with the article? I don't see any serious problem with the article, the person is notable, and the article lists her major results as facts, with reliable sources. She is as professional as Lewis Hamilton was back in 2004/5. Samat (talk) 22:59, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep - Keszthelyi notability is unquestionable. She competed in national and international championships. There is coverage of press vehicles from different countries, in different languages. It is the 4th time that the article is proposed for deletion, twice the decision was to KEEP, in just one the decision was to delete. If the article is promotional, someone can do a review. Minerva  ( talk to me ) 23:20, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. The article is supported by reputable sources whose coverage of her is sustained and non-trivial. (Just to pick a few examples cited in the article:, ) They are independent and cannot be dismissed as "promotional". Note that WP:NSPORT makes clear that an article is merited if "the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria"; Keszthelyi is generally notable and as a result it does not matter whether or not she is "fully professional". Adumbrativus (talk) 02:45, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. only races in Formula 3, which isn't "fully professional" within the meaning of WP:NSPORT is a statement that by implication suggests NSPORT is the only criterion. It's not. WP:GNG exists, and this passes that. I hope it was not being suggested that a subject that passes GNG but fails NSPORT should be deleted as non-notable. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:30, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * But the point I raised is that we have  decided in different ways whether one or both sets of criteria are necessary; I see no stable consensus over the years. I definitely have a preference, which is that both should be necessary for NSPORTS,  but my reason for it is not based on general consideration about the abstract preferability of one set of rules over another, or even about the general way in which we determine notability ,but more specifically because of my own view that we have overcoverage in many parts of this general field, and that a more restrictive standard is the best way of dealing with it. We're not of course going to settle this general question one way or another by this or any other single AfD, but a good way of testing the extent and nature of present consensus is to bring afds in a few doubtful cases from time to time. Not repeatedly or disruptively, but from time to time--I think I get involved in perhaps one or two  relevant afds to this matter a year).  I'm not sure I would support salting, because the individual might in the future obtain successes at higher levels. I
 * And I should say that I very strongly believe that we should not discriminate against non-English language sources, especially for articles dealing with non-English language subjects, or people in non-English language countries. The only rational reason for English preferred is accessibility of sources, since this is the enWP and anyone reading an article hre must inherently know how to read English,. In fact, I'd prefer that the rule were worded "we should use the best sources available, and, if the best sources are non-English, the best English sources also".  DGG ( talk ) 05:48, 18 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep. She was the regular driver duties for Round 4 in W Series, and she scored point. If deleted she'd be the only red linked driver who competed in the 2019 W Series. The Article has 10 english references from 40. --Dodi123 (talk) 09:02, 18 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep. She is a notable Hungarian, very young driver. Unique in Hungary. First in history in many results with correct references even if those are in Hungarian (I added English titles). JSoos (talk) 12:27, 18 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep she is notable. GhostDestroyer100 (talk) 16:42, 18 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep - an article on someone who clearly passes biographical notability criteria comfortably which far surpasses whether she meets the SNG or not. There are multiple sources discussing her at great length so clearly is notable. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:45, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep per my comment above and what others have said about the sources. A7V2 (talk) 11:57, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep It's hard to say that the subject is not notable, many articles can be found in various languages. Mjbmr (talk) 12:01, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep - She is definitely notable, we have many sources, English and Hungarian as well, and the article is quite expanded so far with relevant information. nyiffi stargate 12:29, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * - Really? Point to one English language source. I'm a little surprised by the outpouring of support for this girl. Daddy bought her a race car and sock puppet bought her a WP page. We're meant to filter junk like this out. What's driving this support? Some kind of fancruft? NickCT (talk) 15:38, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I would prefer civilised and respectful communication instead of the style you have chosen. Would that be possible, please? --grin ✎ 16:07, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * - Is that a "no", you can't provide an English language source? What communication are you taking issue with?
 * I don't want to be a hater, but this subject clearly gets very little coverage outside of Hungary. That certainly doesn't mean she's not notable, but the onus is really on our Hungarian buddies to point to high-quality sources that grant her coverage. NickCT (talk) 16:25, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * - The article has a few English sources as said above, please look at the references, I can count at least 5 English sources (2nd, 4th, 6th, 18th, 36th, 39th), and I didn't even count the passing mentions. I'm trying not to consider your questions provoking or rude, but I don't think that is the proper way to argue about any topic. 'What's driving this support?' Well, who should defend her if not the Hungarian buddies? 'Daddy bought her a race car.' Why is that a problem? Enwiki has a very well written article about Paris Hilton. :) Someone wrote about Keszthelyi as well, it's not a big deal, it's an article to keep. nyiffi stargate 20:48, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * - Ok. So your English language sources are; Style & Race, volkswagenag.com, Auto+ Women in Motor Sport. No. 10, Speedqueens, Speedcafe, W Series. The only source there which looks like it might approach moderate quality is Speedcafe. Seems like weak tea.
 * re "Why is that a problem?" - I guess it's not. Lots of people buy their way to fame. Hilton is a good example. Of course, Hilton at this point is pretty notable for several things. As far as I can tell, Vivien is only notable b/c her dad bought her a race car. NickCT (talk) 01:58, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, strike my comment about Speedcafe. I think it's a PR distribution, which would put it in the lowest category of sources. NickCT (talk) 02:10, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
 * How is the W Series website not a reliable and high quality source? It is the official website for the racing series in which Keszthelyi competed.  Is the Formula One website not considered a reliable source about F1 drivers?  I would strongly recommend reading both the W Series website, and the Wikipedia pages on W Series and the W Series 2019 season, to help understand why Keszthelyi is considered notable.  Perhaps part of the reason for disagreement here is merely a lack of information. Hyperion35 (talk) 02:50, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't intend to comment about the sources (since, as it has been said before English sources are not compulsory), but I object the following: "Daddy bought her a race car", "sock puppet bought her a WP page", "junk like this", "what's driving this support", "fancruft". I am not sure you really would need detailed explanation, but I'll provide them if you request so. I'd advise against it as it clearly not helping anyone. I'd prefer just avoiding such comments and concentrating on the remaining relevant questions about the deletion process; I also suggest that the comments about the improving of the article shall be directed to its talk page. Thank you! --grin ✎ 23:38, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
 * - You're not addressing the content. Fancruft is real bud. And if this isn't fancruft, I don't know what is. NickCT (talk) 02:00, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
 * While I still find your tone unacceptable (I am not your "bud") let me try to help you to have a better view of why I (or rather we) have a problem with your "opinion". I believe majority of the people here never really cared about the lady in the subject; as for me, I have not heard about her until I was asked to review the situation. You believe that when there is a, how to put it, "abuse of seniority" (quoting the UCoC) and fellow editors come to help then it is a "fancruft"? Try to realise the situation when the policy say that national relevance is an acceptable notability criteria yet you (and other fellow deletionist editors) do not speak the language, and they try to ignore that english-only sources are not compulsory... what would be the way, in your view, to resolve this other than the said language editors come here and tell their own opinion? And when else than for the AfD (which has a time limit)? So please realise that addressing the fellow editors (who spent time familiarise with the topic and the problem, read the discussion, form an opinion then took the time to formulate it) as "fancruft" is expressively rude. This probably also reflects on your statement "I don't know what is"; at least you ought to realise what you think you know may not be aligned with the reality. And, yet again, I kindly ask you to communicate respectfully with your fellow editors. Consider us speaking a foreign language so avoid slang which you may consider "friendly" while others may read as "offensive" and "marginalising". --grin ✎ 09:13, 23 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Leaving aside the crude nature of the comment, the question of whether Keszethyi's father purchased her car (this seems unlikely, since the W Series is not a Constructor's event, and all drivers competed for 22 spots out of a large pool of applicants) is irrelevant to notability. Lance Stroll's father is part owner of his racing team (Aston Martin, formerly Racing Point), and yet this does not affect his notability.  Lord, if we're going to disregard every wealthy scion in Formula racing, there's not going to be much left.  Hyperion35 (talk) 00:55, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
 * - Stroll's daddy bought him a car too. But Stroll races Formula 1, which I think is a little more notable. But regardless, I'm not really trying to say that someone buying their way to notability isn't legitimate notability. I'm more concerned about the sources. NickCT (talk) 02:03, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
 * What are your concerns about the sources? Many appear to be in Magyar, which makes sense since the subject is Hungarian.  But there are plenty of English-language sources including several from the W Series website itself.  If your concern is that the article needs more English-language sources, then by all means go find some more sources.  The sources issue has been discussed repeatedly and does not seem to be a matter of contention.  My understanding is that the primary question is whether this racer meets the notability standards. Hyperion35 (talk) 02:29, 23 February 2021 (UTC)


 * keep I believe that the initial motion for deletion may have involved a misunderstanding.  Keszethyi competed in the W Series, which is run using cars meeting the Formula 3 standard, but it is not the same as saying that she has "only raced in Formula 3".  Competing in the W series meets two of the standards of WP:NMOTOSPORT as it is a professional series, and it is clearly a series of worldwide interest (especially the inaugural year of the series).  As to my first point, please see where a presumably reliable motorsport publication states that the inaugural series had a $1.5 million total prize pot, with $500,000 going to the winning driver.  Further, the W series is clearly notable as an all-female motorsport competition, which is unique in motorsports at the moment.  Keszethyi appears to have been one of 20 drivers to have competed in at least one race, and one of 17 to have finished in the points in the inaugural season.  I placed the word inaugural in bold because this also gets to the core of notability.  Finally, I am confused as to why this is the 4th attempt to delete this article.  It is even more confusing as none of the pages of the other drivers in the W Series appear to have even one AfD.  I will certainly admit that I am a relatively new fan to motorsports, but Keszethyi and the other inaugural drivers of the W Series strike me as rather notable figures.  But don't take my word for it, the Motorsports article I referenced has several quotes from presumably notable individuals, as well as an explanation from that author, as to why the series is notable. Hyperion35 (talk) 00:44, 23 February 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.