Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Von Aachen's Disease


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Tone 21:53, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Von Aachen's Disease

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Contested CSD hoax. Without any sources at all and no web content at all to be found this looks like a giant hoax to me. De728631 (talk) 21:00, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete: Agreed -- plus the so-called "doctor" in the article links to a painter. -- &#x03C6; OnePt618Talk &#x03C6;  21:31, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment The link to the painter results from the use of a redirect of the same name as the "doctor's" so this isn't really a piece of evidence for a hoax. Still, the rest smells fishy. De728631 (talk) 21:35, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've de-linked the name. Peridon (talk) 11:50, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment No ghits for von Aachen or Strauss, never mind the disease. I would also point out that fluid oozing from the scalp is unlikely to be a symptom of fluid causing pressure on the brain. Cerebro-spinal fluid can leak from the ear in cases of fracture of base of skull, and this is one of the surest diagnoses of this condition (along with the gibberish uttered by the victim...). However, in the absence of a fracture, the skull prevents the loss of fluid from the region of the brain. This is why Subarachnoid haemorrhage can be fatal. (I have personally dealt with three cases of fractured skull (one having a fractured femur as well), and my 12 year old cousin probably saved her father's life by her prompt calling of the ambulance when he had a brain haemorrhage.) I would like to see more evidence in almost any language for this condition, and more description of its mechanism. Also, von Aachen could not have detected PTSD as such in his patients, as the term only originated in the 1970s. These things can be back-diagnosed, but this should be explained and made clear. Peridon (talk) 22:39, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Going for Delete in the absence of any more info from the creator of the article (and after conferring with medical friends who also can't see the connection between pressure on the brain and oozing from the scalp). Peridon (talk) 18:02, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Coment Von Aachen referred to PTSD as "shell-shock." WE know know that shell-shock is real and that it is PTSD. Mucussummery (talk) 23:46, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Von Aachen's Disease is not a hoax. It isn't a widely publicized disease, but it is, nonetheless, real. There is some literature on it, but I'm not sure if it would be acceptable to cite because the literature is in book form. Mucussummery (talk) 19:17, 5 June 2010 (UTC) I can provide one main source, it will just take me a few minutes to get it into the proper citation format. It's an article called "A Summery of Doctor Johann von Aachen's Work over the Past 12 Years" published in 1938 by Dr. Strauss. It was originally a German article with a German title, but I only have the English translation.Mucussummery (talk) 19:28, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * But how do you know? Where's your proof? Delete. Only three Google hits: two Wikipedia and one blog. I don't think whoever declined the speedy took the hit count into consideration. Erpert (let's talk about it) 03:58, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions.  --  Beloved  Freak  23:54, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Strauss, Dietrich A. "A Summery of Doctor Johann von Aachen's Work Over the Past 12 Years." Die Deutschen Medizinischen Zeitschrift 8 Sept. 1938: original pages unknown. Print.

(the information above was taken from a small note before the English translation of the original article)

I also have digital scans of some of the pages from Dr. Von Aachen's journals. Mucussummery (talk) 19:41, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd love to see them. Erpert (let's talk about it) 03:58, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment There is no ghit for 'Die Deutschen Medizinischen Zeitschrift'. Using 'der', there are 10. Two appear to refer to a specific magazine - one reference is in a German forum and I can't pin down the person quoted as writing in the magazine to it anywhere else, and the other is to a magazine in 1919. (Another of the 10 is now unavailable, but contained the same text about 1919.) The others are generic. Peridon (talk) 12:28, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The correct title, if true, would be "Die Deutsche Medizinische Zeitschrift" or simply "Deutsche Medizinische Zeitschrift", none of which seem to exist. The only similar publication would be Deutsche Medizinische Wochenschrift, est. 1875, which has been running under that title ever since. Searching the inventories of the university libraries of Kiel, Rostock, Jena and Magdeburg did not come up with any journal called "Deutsche Medizinische Zeitschrift". Neither do you get Google results for "von Aachen'sche Krankheit" in German. De728631 (talk) 13:37, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * A more thorough search revealed this:, , , so "Deutsche medizinische Zeitschrift" at least did exist. De728631 (talk) 14:22, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment Mucussummery, can you provide the original German title of that alleged review by Strauss in 1938? Given the circumstances of the era, no German journal would have published their articles in English. Not to mention "summ e ry". De728631 (talk) 13:43, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Edit: and sources in book form are of course welcome. Please provide them all with the original titles and publishers. De728631 (talk) 14:58, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment I should like to know more of the detail of the symptoms, and the reasoning that the condition is genetically linked. I am also somewhat puzzled by mucus oozing from the scalp, as this is (in humans at least) virtually always an internal secretion found in the respiratory, digestive and reproductive systems. Peridon (talk) 15:56, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd like to know a bit more about the recent cases mentioned too - where were they reported? Peridon (talk) 13:22, 8 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete - I don't know if this is a hoax, but I know that I can't verify it. No reported cases since 1938. Possibly redirect to scrofula. Bearian (talk) 13:53, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Why to scrofula? It doesn't sound much like it to me. That's mainly in the lymph nodes of the neck, and I've never heard of pressure of fluid on the brain being part of it. Peridon (talk) 14:16, 8 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete Unverifiable at best. Edward321 (talk) 00:03, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete Articles about historical diagnoses (which this appears to be) should include secondary sources like other history articles, so that they can be compared to modern medicine. Narayanese (talk) 19:47, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete Unverified, and makes no sense medically. "Mucus" oozing from pores? Pores do not secrete mucus. The treatment ("tubes put inside the head"?) seems to assume some kind of connection where pressure or fluid inside the brain causes oozing through the scalp; how this fluid would penetrate the skull is not explained. Conflicting etiologies - genetics, stress, aging, etc. - are cited without explanation. --MelanieN (talk) 15:23, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.