Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vrhovnik


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   merge to Franjo Tuđman. information could also be merged into Military of Croatia Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:13, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Vrhovnik

 * – ( View AfD View log )

There are several problems with this article:
 * 1) There is no proof that vrhovnik has ever been a rank in the Croatian Armed Forces. The aimpress.ch source quotes article 108 of the Law on the Service in the Armed Forces : "Vrhovni zapovjednik oruzanih snaga Republike Hrvatske ima zvanje Vrhovnik" - note, zvanje ("title"), not čin ("rank"). The 2002 act uses the word čin to describe ranks, and does so in article 15.
 * 2) It is not true that the rank is "currently inactive". The 2002 act makes no mention of the word vrhovnik at all. Apparently this title - not rank - has been abolished.
 * 3) There is no proof Tuđman's uniform was described by any law or regulation regarding this supposed "rank". The second source says nothing on this issue.
 * 4) Even if vrhovnik actually was a rank (I'm considering this just for the sake of the argument), given the fact that it was a) discontinued, b) never given to anyone else but Tuđman, c) effectively the same as Commander-in-Chief, it does not meet the threshold for standalone notability. At best, this fact could be merged to Franjo Tuđman (and it would probably be of little value even there). GregorB (talk) 15:31, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge. I spotted this article yesterday and was on the fence about it. I haven't studied the documents mentioned by GregorB closely but it seems to me that "Vrhovnik" was effectively the same thing as Commander-in-Chief. All Croatian Presidents carry the of Commanders-in-Chief by default so the only thing which would make "Vrhovnik" stand apart is the fact that it was a synonym for that title used only by Tuđman, and that a special uniform was invented for it, worn only by Tuđman and currently housed in a museum. In any case, there is no potential for a standalone article. In my opinion it was just another visible way of Tuđman expressing his illusions of grandiosity, which means it could perhaps add some value to the Franjo Tuđman article, as a way of illustrating the circumstances of his presidency.  Timbouctou ( talk ) 15:47, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with you, but interestingly the title was not applied to Tuđman alone: MORH used "Vrhovnik" in 2006 at its website to report visit of then CIC Stjepan Mesić to a military training facility. I agree that the term was used virtually exclusively for Tuđman, but still...--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:38, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep or Merge but Tudjman used it during his presidency wear Uniform and rank Vrhovnik look at youtube.com, it was only time that he wear uniform with rank, i dont know how its defined on law in Croatia but de facto hes acting was as military person considered that he was Major General in YPA. It was title see here i dont know what happed is it abolished by the law of Croatia but its fact that it was existed like Marshal of Yugoslavia. Snake bgd 16:36, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, the title seems to have existed but it no longer does, since at least 2002 (so it is not inactive - it is actually non-existent). The question is what is the potential for this article to develop beyond a short stub, and if it doesn't have any, what to do with it. I'd say that at best it deserves maybe a sentence or two in our Franjo Tuđman article, maybe accompanied with an image of his shoulder insignia.  Timbouctou ( talk ) 17:48, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it should remain as an act given that on the English Wikipedia was added as an equivalent rank marshal also if it should be left to the edit reliable references that would be a better article. Snake bgd 18:19, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Please note WP:EXISTS. Note also it is apparently not a rank. GregorB (talk) 18:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok its title and it will be renamed it and problem is solved, it exsited Tudjman wear that uniform with shoulder insignia and article should be fixed not deleted.Snake bgd 18:26, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Another proof that title existed .Snake bgd 18:31, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Title was created by constitution of Croatia in 1995 and abolished in 2002. Thats enough proof of existence of this title.Snake bgd 19:00, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge to Military of Croatia (Commander section) with a sentence noting the term in Franjo Tuđman for obvious reasons. Military Service Act of 1995, defines that "Vrhovni zapovjednik oružanih snaga Republike Hrvatske ima zvanje Vrhovnik" meaning that "the commander in chief of the armed forces of the Republic of Croatia is styled Vrhovnik". IMO that particular style may now be out of use, but at one point it was used. I'd also add a note about it in Croatia section of the Commander-in-chief article.--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:16, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, and the same legislation clearly specifies that Vrhovnik is not a rank.--Tomobe03 (talk) 20:40, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2012 January 6.  Snotbot   t &bull; c &raquo;  08:48, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Croatia-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 19:57, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 19:58, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.