Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/WCKS (college radio)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. What a discussion. Very good arguments by Neutralhomer. I want to point out something in this close that no one mentioned; although it did not affect this close. Out of the 5 sources, 2 were not sources but simply external links, 2 were primary sources to the schools paper (Lanthorn), and the last one doesn't support the sentence it cites. The consensus appears to be to merge to Grand_Valley_State_University. However, upon reviewing the target, it appears all mergable content is already there; namely the first two sentences. The remaining sentences in the first paragraph are clearly promotional and the last paragraph doesn't really say anything about the subject and is actually synthesis. So the result of this discussion is delete.

Also, as it appears that WCKS has not nor has ever been a registered callsign, I have declined the option of a redirect. WCKS should link to the Georgia radio station and WCKS (college radio) would be an implausible redirect. Perhaps a note at the top of the Georgia radio station could say "See also" but I'll leave that up to whomever is willing to take it under consideration. v/r - TP 00:37, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

WCKS (college radio)

 * – ( View AfD View log )

US student-run college radio station, which operated an unlicensed low-powered carrier current transmission starting in the 1990's and more recently an internet radio service. I could not find reliable and independent sources to satisfy WP:ORG, and such unlicensed stations have not been granted the de facto notability given licensed broadcasters which originate some of their programming. Edison (talk) 19:11, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Radio-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:35, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:35, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Michigan-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 19:35, 2 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete This isn't a radio station, it's web audio streaming. Licensed radio stations generally enjoy a presumption of notability but this isn't the case here.  No indication of how this might be notable.  Lacks coverage in 3rd party sources. RadioFan (talk) 19:55, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete: I reluctantly support the deletion of this article because carrier current stations do not share the same notability as FM, AM, and LPFM radio stations (as well as low-power and full-power TV stations), as they don't possess an FCC license (one is not required for carrier current). -  Neutralhomer •  Talk  • 20:48, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Follow-Up: I also can find no application for the FM station mentioned in this reference on the page which adds to my deletion support. -  Neutralhomer •  Talk  • 20:54, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Try this link or this link. Unscintillating (talk) 00:38, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * These articles basically say that the organization is considering applying for a license. Still not finding any evidence that this happend much less that one was granted.  It wont be under the WCKS callsign as this is already assigned to a station in Georgia.--RadioFan (talk) 01:11, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The only licenses currently in the FCC system (current and future) for Grand Valley State University are for the school's NPR and PBS stations. -  Neutralhomer •  Talk  • 01:30, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Or assigned to an Alabama border town near Columbus, Georgia. I agree that there is more to be said about what happened to the radio tower and the FCC license.  But the article referenced also shows a long history going back to the late 80s and a controversy in which the FCC pulled the FM license in the nineties.  That all adds to wp:notability.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:57, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, going by the FCC website, the only "WCKS" is on the FM Band. There isn't a "WCKS" on the AM Band or on Television.  The one on FM, is located in Fruithurst, Alabama and is owned by "WCKS, LLC" of Carrolton, Georgia, which is in no way connected with the "WCKS" on carrier current in Allendale, Michigan.  Furthermore, the lack of any license or any attempt to apply a license (or the lack of acting on the previous attempt to gain an FCC license) shows that WCKS (college radio) lacks notability that is given to all FM, FMLP, AM, TV, LPTV and CA(TV) stations. -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 03:34, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment This topic is covered at Grand_Valley_State_University and it appears that it will continue to be covered there.  A delete !vote posits that both the material and the redirect are objectionable, which I think is inconsistent with having the topic covered in the encyclopedia.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:57, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep This ref shows that the organization is recognized by the university.  Although I think wp:notability exists for this organization, and recommend a keep result for AfD, that does not mean that we are required to have a stand-alone article, especially given the current state of the article.  This topic is covered at Grand_Valley_State_University.  The problem with recommending a merge there is that that is a large article, and it appears that the Media section needs to be split in order to add more material about the student radio station.  So in addition to recommending a keep AfD result, I recommend as an editoral decision a Merge to a to-be-created article, Media at Grand Valley State University.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:57, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * We aren't discussing the Media section of the main article on this university, we are discussing this dedicated article on the station. It does not meet notability guidelines.  There isn't anything sourceable in the article so there isn't much to merge.  I would opposed to create another article on media at this university, there just isn't sufficient content to warrant splitting out the media section--RadioFan (talk) 03:10, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with RadioFan, it isn't notable enough for it's own article, it isn't notable enough for a "group article" either. Oppose to creating the proposed article. -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 03:37, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I have yet to see you give any reason for deletion except that it is (or was) a carrier current radio station with no FCC license, which is not actually one of our guidelines. Unscintillating (talk) 05:20, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, it is. This page covers all notability for TV and Radio Stations and has a section on carrier currents.  To save you the time: "Unlicensed stations - Stations that do not require a license to operate, such as some "carrier current" stations limited to the boundaries of a college campus are not presumed notable, but could be covered in an article about the school. Pirate broadcasters, while not presumed notable, can have notability conferred on them by meeting WP:CORP standards."  So, there you have it.  Not notable, might be notable under WP:CORP, but that is tough to make happen and I have yet to see it happen.  Please learn the rules of Wikipedia, will ya? -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 07:22, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The [fallacy] article states, "In logic..., a fallacy is...an incorrect argumentation... By accident or design, fallacies may exploit emotional triggers in the listener or interlocutor (appeal to emotion), or take advantage of social relationships between people (e.g. argument from authority). Fallacious arguments are often structured using rhetorical patterns that obscure any logical argument... Among such devices...are: making the argument personal (argumentum ad hominem)... Unscintillating (talk) 22:02, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Do you agree that there is a large semantic difference in meaning between "not presumed notable" and "presumed not notable"?
 * Do you agree that there is yet another large semantic step between "presumed not notable" and concluding that a topic is "not notable"? Unscintillating (talk) 22:02, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I don't agree, because as I said below, I have dug into the recesses of the FCC website and can not find the application mentioned in the news article. With that, I find this station doesn't have a notability leg to stand on (and it never did to be honest).  There isn't any semantics here, the article simply is not notable.-  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 06:55, 5 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment
 * 1) The main document regarding notability is WP:Notability commonly known as WP:N. WP:N has only one requirement, that a topic be "worthy of notice".
 * 2) WP:GNG is the general notability guideline which is one path to determining that a topic is "worthy of notice".
 * 3) WP:CORP is an SNG which, as per the lede in WP:N, is an alternative guideline to define whether a topic is "worthy of notice".
 * 4) WP:Notability (TV and radio stations) is an alternative essay to define whether or not a topic is "worthy of notice", but is not recognized as such by WP:N. An essay may be no more than one person's opinion.  An essay is neither a guideline nor a policy.
 * 5) To my knowledge, the absence of notability is not defined at Wikipedia, it is the set left after removing topics that are "worthy of notice". In particular, such a claim requires evidence that WP:GNG is not satisfied, and in this case would also require evidence that WP:CORP is not satisfied.
 * 6) WP:N is a guideline to decide if we should have a stand-alone article on Wikipedia, deletion is determined by WP:Deletion policy.
 * 7) WP:ATD, "Alternatives to deletion", is a part of WP:Deletion policy in which the point is that we avoid deleting material when there are alternatives." Unscintillating (talk) 22:02, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment before this degrades into further analysis of logical fallacies, semantics and personal reflections on Wikipedia's guidelines and policy on notability.... The above linked notability guidelines tell us what is generally notable, they do not tell us what is not notable. That is determined by consensus, here, in this AFD.  Right now the consensus is that this subject does not rise to the level described in these notability guidelines.  Yes, it is not worthy of notice.  Several participants have anticipated the outcome and are thinking of next steps as you note.  While alternatives to deletion do exist, I and others do not think they are appropriate here.  This article should be deleted outright, not merged.  I'm not seeing how a even a single sentence on the subject in the article on the university could be adequately sourced.  --RadioFan (talk) 00:22, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Our position seems to be close, yet you want to delete the good faith edits in the edit history, and you want to delete the redirect. In addition to previously cited sources, we know that the station once held an FCC license, so we know that there is information about the station that is not currently cited.  What you might avoid with a delete is negotiating with the editors at Grand Valley State University about how to merge, but that is not actually a policy reason to delete an article.  Unscintillating (talk) 03:56, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Let me try and get this through to you: There was never an FCC license for this station and the school isn't applying for any licenses for this station at this time. Please, for the love of all that is Holy, stop saying there was or is a license for this station when there isn't a record of one.  To be honest, I can't find a record of the application that is mentioned in the articles and I have dug into the recesses of the FCC website (where no one dares go) and can find nothing.  At this point, I can't confirm the application mentioned ever existed outside that news article.  With that said, that makes the notability (if there was ever any to begin with) something like negative zero at this point. -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 06:53, 5 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Note: This article has been nominated for rescue. Unscintillating (talk) 03:56, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I dont think our position is close as I see no valid reason to keep this article. No other participant in this discussion does either.  This includes editors with years of experience maintaining radio station articles.  I'd gladly change my !vote to keep if the claim that this station had been previously licensed and had that license yanked can be properly sourced.--RadioFan (talk) 04:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)


 * As noted above, I have been digging in the recesses of the FCC database (I think I found Jimmy Hoffa in there) and going back to 1979, when the FCC started digitizing their records, the applications filed for stations are ones that have been on the air for years. WGVS-FM (on since before 1979), WGVU-FM (on since before 1983, but applications going back to 1980), WGVU (AM) (on since 1922), WGVS (AM) (on since 1926), WGVU-TV (on since 1972), and WGVK (on since 1984) are the only stations that Grand Valley State University has ever applied for applications for.  No others, no dead applications back in 2009 or before.  There are no new applications in the FCC database for any other stations other than the ones mention.  I haven't found any constuction permits applied for by the school, be them expired, active or otherwise.  The application for this station never existed.  I have to find that whatever was written in the Grand Valley Lanthorn in April 2009 was either a mistake or completely incorrect and there isn't any evidence in the FCC database (and they don't throw anything away or delete anything...even old radio stations that were "deleted" are just moved to another folder) of any applications for any stations...ever. -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 07:17, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * If Grand Valley does own other stations, perhaps a brief mention of WCKS in the WGVU-FM one would work (in its own section) would suffice. WCKS could redirect to it. I know that the two are unrelated except for the Grand Valley State connection, but I've seen similar things on other articles of this nature. Meanwhile, the WCKS article is too weak to stand on its own.--Fightingirish (talk) 11:31, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * There is a proposal under the break to merge the "WCKS" article to the Grand Valley State University page as a subsection. -  Neutralhomer •  Talk  • 11:58, 8 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete- per NeutralHomer's excellent research verifying that this radio station is not notable. Reyk  YO!  22:42, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep There is history with student radio at GVSU. WSRX was the previous student radio station, but now belongs to First Assembly Ministries in Florida. WCKS at one time was the AM station at GVSU. However, I am having an issue locating its former frequency. Maybe this information should at least be moved to the Grand Valley State University page under the media section.Demhem (talk) 07:07, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Please take a look at this. Demhem (talk) 07:15, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * If previous stations were actually FCC licensed or more notable, maybe it would be more logical to discuss this in the appropriate section of the school's article? It doesn't seem very sensible that, because previous radio stations were FCC licensed, this newer unlicensed student run one should inherit that notability.--Yaksar (let's chat) 07:21, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, Demhem, there was never a "WCKS" owned by Grand Valley State University. WSRX is the former callsign of WGVU-FM.  That station has been on the air since before 1983, not '98 or '99.  Before 1983.  There is a difference.  "WCKS", even from the link provided, is a "Carrier current and Internet student radio for GVSU" and not "registered/licensed with FCC".  Quoting from the Michiguide link you provided.  So, in other words, the only stations that have ever existed in Allendale, Michigan are WGVU-FM, which is NPR not college music, nothing associated with the current WSRX and nothing from 1998 or 1999.  There were never any applications filed for stations during that time.  We go by the Federal Communications Commission, not a website from Michigan that is full of original research.  Sorry, but "WCKS" doesn't exist in the FCC database...never has under any other name. -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 09:49, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * @Yaksar: The internet station wouldn't inherit that notability because they are seperate stations and there aren't any reliable third party sources to back up the claim that any "WCKS" programming ever aired on WSRX (now WGVU-FM)...and the school's newspaper definitely doesn't cut it as a "reliable third party source" at this point. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> Neutralhomer •  Talk  • 09:55, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * @Neutralhomer, did you check to see if there was an application in Grand Rapids, Michigan for this station? The Meijer Public Broadcast Center is downtown, and they might be planning on having the station broadcast from the GVSU downtown campus. Or possibly even Jenison, Michigan, seeing as part of the campus actually lies in Georgetown township, which is a Jenison mailing address. Demhem (talk) 05:41, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, in Jenison, Michigan, there is only a "deleted" station WONX 1020, that had been there since before 1978. There was an application in 2003 in Jenison, but that was going to Radio Assist Ministry, Inc. (they have a slew of these all over the country, they do religious programming), but it was never acted upon.  As for the "Meijer Public Broadcast Center", I found zero applications in that name.  In Grand Rapids, I am finding 5 digital translator (television) applications for WGVU-TV in Grand Rapids in 2011, a couple for the digital signal for WGVU-DT back in 2003 and 2004, a license renewal for WGVU-TV in 1988, and some standard applications for the other Grand Rapids commercial radio stations and television stations.  That was out of 660 applications for "Grand Rapids, Michigan" going back to 1978 (when the FCC started computerizing their records).  Nothing for "Meijer Public Broadcast Center" and nothing for Grand Valley State University outside of the aforementioned WGVU-TV applications. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 06:17, 8 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete or redirect per NeutralHomer's extensive research and discussion.--Yaksar (let's chat) 07:21, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Merge content into the Grand Valley State University article. Unfortunately I can't find coverage that satisfies WP:ORG. I'll be happy to merge the content and redirect the article after the discussion is completed. P. D. Cook  Talk to me! 12:23, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment and Proposal: I would have no problem with a merge into the Grand Valley State University article as User:Pdcook suggested above. I think it would benefit all.  I propose the article be merged into the Grand Valley State University article posthaste with this AfD closed as "Merged" simultaneously. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 12:30, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I see no problem with a very selective merge to the university's article. However the claim of pursuing a license has not been backed up and should go.--RadioFan (talk) 12:46, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: Agreed on the latter point. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> Neutralhomer •  Talk  • 12:50, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment 'The notability of student groups operating like a radio station without actually broadcasting over the air using methods such as carrier current or internet streaming has come up before. Some actually do have articles but it's because they've received some notice outside of campus.  Even the coverage by the campus newspaper isn't really that great here.  There are wikipedia articles on internet only stations and campus based carrier current ones.  What sets them apart is someone who is not a part of that organization or campus took notice and wrote about them.  For example WTBU is a carrier current station at Boston University that received some coverage in the New York Times so a dedicated article is merited there.--RadioFan (talk) 12:46, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Grand_Valley_State_University. If it was a licensed FCC station, the de facto rule is that we'd keep it because it presumably will meet WP:ORG.  Its not, so dropping that presumption, I searched to see if there is coverage to show it meets WP:ORG.  There is not, and the two keep !votes to date, from Unscintilating and Denham, don't show otherwise.--Milowent • <sup style="position:relative">has<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-3.2ex;*left:-5.5ex;">spoken  21:09, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete If this were an FCC-licensed station, it would be a strong keep. Appears as if it is just a webcaster (and maybe a carrier current station) and a rather obscure one at that. Plus, it only has three sentences. Not much of a case for keeping it. At least it doesn't have an extensive list of staffers and faculty advisors from the past 20 years like some articles I've seen. --Fightingirish (talk) 01:06, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Grand_Valley_State_University (or Grand_Valley_State_University) --DGaw (talk) 01:45, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.