Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Walter Hammerl


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. A redirect can be created editorially.  Sandstein  09:17, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Walter Hammerl

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Insufficiently notable independently from the band he managed. Should be redirected to Erste Allgemeine Verunsicherung. The argument has been made that the de-Wiki is happy to have this stub, but I don't think that carries any water here - we require demonstrated separate notability for band members (see the italicized passage at the end of WP:BAND). -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 20:19, 2 June 2018 (UTC) Elmidae (talk · contribs) 20:19, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 20:53, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Austria-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 20:53, 2 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete. As an Austrian who remembers the time when the EAV was popular: no. This is not a guy who used to be a figure of public life and merely wasn't talked about much by the kind of sources that Wikipedia relies on. This is a guy who nobody has ever heard of. de-Wiki is not in fact happy to have this stub; Mr Hammerl fails their notability criteria for band members with a vengeance and the page would be gone in a heartbeat if anyone cared to draw their attention to it. Kramler (talk) 13:52, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment If you are Austrian, I take it you speak German? Why don't you alter the German Wikipedia people then and get the article deleted there?  I've always said that the different language versions of Wikipedia are simply for thiose who speak those languages, no other diffence!  Therefore if it allowed on the German version, it should be allowed here on the English version.  Get it removed from the German version and the English deletion will make more sense!  Also I am English and I wasn't born until after Mr Hammerl took his own life but I know he was there is the very early days before EAV became popular which was about five years later when they peaked at number 68 in the UK charts with "Ba Ba Bankrobbery".  This does not mean he does not deserve an article.  Mr Hammerl was clearly part of what the band is today and without him, things may well have been different.  ˜˜˜˜
 * Reply. You are correct on both counts: I do speak German; Mr Hammerl had been dead for five years by the time the EAV became notable. Kramler (talk) 04:33, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Reply. If you don't feel this article is notable why don't you alert the German Wikipedia people to get it deleted there? Seems strange we have two German speakers involved in this discussion for this article to be removed but no-one is arguing against the German version of it, despite being fully able to do so!  Please also see my comments below.   Cexycy (talk) 11:37, 8 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Redirect There does not appear to any evidence that he had done anything significant outside of EAV, and individual members of band without significance outside the band are normally redirected to the band per WP:MUSICBIO. However, if attempts at removing the redirect persist, then I'd suggest delete and salt. Hzh (talk) 14:09, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment Usually experienced people get chosen as managers. Why would he be chosen as the EAV manager if he was inexperienced? The article should not be a redirected if there is an article which exists, otherwise what is the point of the article being there?  That's just rude.  What do you mean by salt anyway?  ˜˜˜˜
 * ...could you please just realize that decisions about whether an article is kept or not are made based on explicit, written Wikipedia guidelines, the most pertinent one of which has already been cited multiple times - WP:MUSICBIO (or WP:BAND - same target). Rudeness, or what goes on at deWP, doesn't enter into it. (I'm German too, btw) - Salting is a form of creation protection that prevents the article from being reinstated if there is concern that people will not abide by deletion consensus. Hopefully that won't be necessary. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 06:38, 6 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete - This debate has gone off the rails a bit with the unsigned comments (by User:Cexycy). It does not matter that Walter Hammerl has an article in German WP because notability there is not evidence of notability elsewhere. (In other words, our WP here has many articles on regionally notable American bands who have coverage in their city's media, but that does not automatically make them notable in Germany.) It also does not matter that he was a good or experienced manager. Alas, he has received little or no media coverage as an individual. If his work with Erste Allgemeine Verunsicherung has been covered in reliable media sources, there is no problem discussing it in the group's article. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 19:05, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment You just made a big mistake! There is no Germany Wikipedia, there is a German language version.  Big difference!  If a band is notable in the USA and they have an article, an article in German should be available for those wishing to read it.  I know EAV have done poorly in English speaking countries and some would even say they are not notable there however people like myself may wish to read them.  Therefore it really matters not where someone comes from, what they do or where they were best known, it has no bearing on the languages of the people wishing to read about them.  Hence why there are articles in English about all sorts of people like EAV, who were not popular in English speaking countries.  Wikipedia appears to be the ONLY source of English language information at the moment.  I find it very strange how two German speakers are arguing against this article in the English section.  If a subject does not deserve its own article, then why would it be available in one language but not another?  By limiting languages you are limiting readers and this is simply NOT what Wikipedia is about.  It's about information for all! Cexycy (talk) 18:46, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Response - Personally I disagree with your distinction between a Germany Wikipedia and a German Language Wikipedia, but that doesn't matter. What does matter is that we still have no confirmation of Hammerl's notability as an individual person who qualifies for his own Wikipedia article, in any language. Your concerns about what is available in what language is actually a larger issue for the structure of Wikimedia Foundation at the international level and has little bearing on this particular article under discussion. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 19:09, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Response - As stated before how can someone or something be notable in one language but not another? Therefore why should it exist in one language bit not another?  It just doesn't make sense!  I also find it a little worrying that you cannot see my point of a difference between Germany and German language Wikipedia.  There is a mountain of difference.  If we take your approach, it could be argued that EAV related articles should be removed from the English Wikipedia as they are not notable in English speaking countries (as well as countless other non-English notable musicians).  As stated before Wikipedia is about providing information to people who want it, whatever language they speak!  Cexycy (talk) 11:37, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I suggest you knock it off - incredulity does not good arguments make. Have a look at the deWP criteria for band members: - they say the same thing, in fact with more detail (second group of three bullets). As has been pointed out above, dude fails our notability criteria as well as theirs. Apparently no one has gotten round to enforce it over there, but that doesn't mean we have to follow suit. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:01, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Fine I will, but I still think it's strange we have at least two German speakers arguing here and not on the German section! I bet EAV have had one or two documentaries made about them, which would have to mention a few things about Mr Hammerl too, which these people may well have seen.  Cexycy (talk) 15:54, 8 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Merge - Okay, it looks like merging the two articles would be the best idea. This way what little information known can still be read and no-one misses out.  Can't say fairer than that, can we?  Cexycy (talk) 15:54, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Hammerl's article says he was the band's manager and "occasional" vocalist starting in 1977, but the band's article says that he was actually a member starting in 1978 and does not describe him as being the manager (except briefly in the Line-ups list). Which is correct? Straighten this out at the band's article then the merge can be considered complete because it is the only factual statement to be merged. Then Hammerl's article can be redirected to the band's article or just plain deleted (contingent upon the votes above). ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 19:58, 8 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.