Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/WebAPP


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete and salt. This AfD is a mess, only one person objects to deleting the articles, and he seems to be more interested in shouting admin abuse than sensibly arguing to keep. -- Steel 00:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

WebAPP

 * - (View AfD) (View log)

Contested speedy (after, I believe, three previous speedies) and guaranteed to be a contested PROD, so direct to AfD. Apparently non-notable freeware. Commonness of name makes it difficult to Google, but the related official site garners 111 Ghits, none immediately apparently from reliable sources. Appears to be strong content pushing from those associated with the product. I'm far from expert in the field, and so leave it to fellow editors to determine the product's notability or lack thereof. Robertissimo 21:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The following comments have been moved from the top of this page and back again there; please note the common sense that when submitting an issue for discussion one needs to provide complete references to the issue before the discussion start. I am afraid that by insisting on hiding the true facts you show that you are not interested in having an unbiased discussion in an issue in which you admitted self not to know much about, you will not win this consensus you are after by playing techniqual edit/delete games (you= the sysop who started this process here). Monty53 16:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Please note, the logs and links under refers to the last delete made on an article that was made fast and not to the original article that was there before (for two months) and approved by sysops.  Monty53 02:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The article is updated, kindly visit and advise on other required changes. Thank you Monty53 02:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Secondly concerning copyvio.: one of the developer of the WebAPP site tried publishing an article where he used some of the text in the "about ino" in http://www.web-app.net it was his own text, so he did not violate any copyrights issue. I am no developer in that site, you can check it your self with a search on my nick "monty53", I started using the script few months ago.
 * Kindly read responses from contributors to the article also here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:WebAPP this is because they are not aware of the discussion here. Monty53 07:27, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:WEB, WP:N. Flakeloaf 22:08, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You are hereby challenged to show us how it fails according to these two guiding rules. Monty53 07:18, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete unless it can be rewritten and its notability verifiably demonstrated.--Guinnog 22:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It can be improved, and you all know that. Isn't this why one has editable Wikipedia for? But how will one be able to improve the content if it is being deleted is an enigma to me. Have you read the Wikpedia guidance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion it states clearly there that one should consider editing articles BEFORE and NOT after NOR while articles are suggested to be deleted or being deleted. Its says clearly: "Before listing an article for deletion here, consider whether a more efficient alternative is appropriate " Monty53 11:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Note. I've added related article Web-APP, created by the same editor as the original article, possibly to circumvent this AfD. Robertissimo 22:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Why all these speculations? Web-APP was redirected to WebAPP before the article was deleted. It only shows that you guys did not do your homework, you have not read the discussion og logs of the deleted articles. I demand that all these speculations and personal attacks will removed from the discussion here. Kindly read the discussion at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Web_application where it was stated that BOTH there is a need for an artilce about WebAPP and that a redirect link should be made, to your knowledge this redirect link was added originly by a sysop and NOT by me nor by anyone from WebAPP project. Your appology would be appreciated. Monty53 11:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Monty53 (talk • contribs) 11:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Delete Per nominator. On a side note, I note with interest that the author blanked my userpage in apparent retaliation, and then accused me of being in some sort of anti-open-source conspiracy, so caution to anyone who disagrees with him, he may respond poorly. - (striked out this severe groundless personal attack, because non of the sysops bothers doing it- Monty)C HAIRBOY  (☎) 22:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Your apology would be appreciated, I have never blanked your userpage, your personal attack on me should be deleted from this discussion. If you can not even read your own log in your own personal site before coming with false accusations maybe its you that "respond poorly". Monty53 07:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Note. I very nearly speedied this when I saw it on CSD earlier, and then again when I saw the tag added. Do we really need to go through this AfD? One of the previous deletion comments mentioned copyvio; if that is the case it should be blanked and sent there. The only thing stopping me doing these things myself is a lingering worry that in spite of its dreadful state at present the article's subject may well be notable; as Robertissimo says it is difficult to Google for. Any other opinions? --Guinnog 22:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * As nominator mentioned, any means short of an AfD will be contested by the author until the alpacas come home. Copyvio's a tight fit; it looks to be written by the team responsible for creating the program in question.  At best it's a prod candidate for WP:N, at worst it's WP:SPAM. Flakeloaf 22:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You are hereby challenged to provide information of where copvio "right fit", it does not, you are confussing this article with something else someone else wrote 2 months ago which also was not copyvio as he used his own text. What do you mean "it looks like" please come with facts and not feelings, thank you. Monty53 07:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment You are hereby requested to check the difference between the letters R and T. The facts are I said the article is not copyvio, my feelings are that you need to calm down and listen to what we're saying.  Flakeloaf 11:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I am trying to, but there is so much information written here that is not true, but sysops have allready decided on the basis of this information to delete the article. It feels like unfair trial. I wanted to add "history", "references" and "security" as well as edit the article, but from what I see around here it would be a waste of time as the decision was allready taken place without even giving a chance to edit the article. So this is quite frustrationg, anyway thanks for noticing this frustration! Monty53 12:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete While noting the arguments detailed below, this article still appears to fail WP:WEB. And if this statement is correct, which I am happy to say is a decision for a more senior member of the community, argument is pointless.--Anthony.bradbury 23:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, why all these speculations? The suggestion to write an article about WebAPP was made by several sysops and article contributors here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Web_application Again, I do not see one good argument for deleting the article except speculations and now hanging on a "bigger fish" eg. "a more senior member..", lets admit it, non of the sysops here whom decided to delete the article has a clue what open source scripts are, because if they did, they would just learn that hundreds if not thousands of such articles are placed everywhere in Wikipedia, that those articles are notable and are in the true spirit of Wikipedia for telling about free, open source popular scripts. Monty53 11:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Answers (if I may?) Firstly concerning "spam" and "non notable": The US gov. has just published an article concerning a security patch released by the WebAPP project in www.web-app.net. Why would they do so if it was "non notable"? ( http://nvd.nist.gov/nvd.cfm?cvename=CVE-2006-6688 ) I mean no harm and no personal attack, but I do have a doubt that the person/s who deleted this article at the first place knew what they were saying when defining this free open source script as "spam" or "non notable". Both well notable Roger Moore and Tony Curtis are using this script for free in their work for unicef (for free too). Are they also spammers? The article was there for 2 months nearly and actually got positive responses from several sysops!

Thirdly concerning personal attacks: I do not buy this "heart breaking" story. To have a personal attack, a name of a person should be subitted on some framing information to who it may be, I never did so, but this person did it himself (above) he also suggested that he was attacked for being belonged to some sort of "anti-open-source conspiracy", very interesting too, I never wrote that either. All I did was quoting few words from his personal page, the explanation for these words was given by him above and NOT me.

Next, I never blanked anyones userpage, this is complete nonesense! Monty53 23:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC) Please read the discussion in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Web_application where it was originaly suggested by sysop to submit an article about WebAPP. After this article was submitted (by webapp?) it was given a redirect by a sysop and stayed untouched for two months (?). To say that me or webapp or anyone else made this redirect link is simply not true. The original article was given several positive feedbacks and users contributed with more content, this article was deleted today instantly without any warning. The new article placed by me is different, and was also deleted instantly, again for peculiar reasons, if one is unhappy with the content of the article he/she could have demanded to edit it, but the trigger was pulled too fast and another article (complete different one!) was deleted again. I am asking you to read carefully the discussions and articles that were deleted and see it with your own eyes before deleting it again, this aticle is not perfect and certainly needs editing, but deleting it will not serve anything or anyone except some ego or revenge for some unjustified offense who took place against one of the sysops here. Monty53 00:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Note. The userpage-blanking appears to be a case of mistaken identity.  Chairboy's page was blanked by Webapp, who was apparently the author of a previous version of the article.  The fact remains, however, that Monty 53 did in fact repeatedly remove the speedy tag from this iteration, despite the template's clear instruction for the primary author not to do so. Robertissimo 23:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Questions. How many of you read the original article by user webapp? This article was added redirect link by a sysop from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebAPP to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web-APP and was given positive feedback by several sysops, the article was untouched by sysops for several months until suddenly one sysop arrived today and decided to delete it without any warning whatever! Isnt that vandalism or power abuse by a sysop? (or am I personaly offending someone again?). How many of you read the discussion in redirected http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webapp DEMANDING an article in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebAPP ? The controbutors in that place asked to create this article.. and now someone "just felt like" deleting it and someone else "just got insulted". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Monty53 (talk • contribs) 2007-01-18 23:20:59
 * The deleted article was a copyright violation, a straight copy and paste of a copyrighted web page. Please see the warning in boldface that has appeared below the edit screen every single time that you have edited here. Uncle G 00:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Why telling lies? user by the name webapp copied some of his VERY own text and added it in some place in the article. And what has webapp actions got to do with this new article we are discussing? I see that ego is a very important for some of you as resoning for voting. This is my point of view you can take it or you can ignore it. Monty53 06:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * My last word. And after that I will keep my mouth shut. google on a bad day produces 15,000 hits for the WebAPP project: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-50,GGLD:en&q=%22web+automated+perl+portal%22
 * It needs citations of sources that demonstrate that our WP:SOFTWARE criteria are satisfied. Wasting time making accusations against your fellow editors contrary to our Assume good faith directive, instead of spending your time citing sources, will not save the article.  Please contribute productively to the discussion by citing sources. Uncle G 00:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Does not assert notibility. Does not have any reviews or indepedant notable sources that mention it. No references apart from linking to itself. Fails Notability (software).--155.144.251.120 02:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * So you are suggesting that all articles that are missing some information should be deleted? Is that the new Wikipedia policy? I guess one has plenty of work to get done with... deleting 99.999999999% (if not all) Wikipedia articles for the crime of being incomplete. Again I have not seen one good argument above for deleting the article execpt for some hurt feelings by one or another sysop. Has Wikipedia turned into egopedia? Monty53 06:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Ego has nothing to do with this. Anything anyone says about this being personal is bollocks.  This AfD and the PRODs that preceded it were intended to remove an article that appears to describe an otherwise non-notable website.  If the article's content and external links assert its notability (which is defined as several non-trivial, reliable published works sourced independently of the subject of the article) then it meets WP:N, and by extension, WP:WEB and may stay.  As Anthony.bradbury pointed out, time spent arguing the point here is time not spent improving the article so it appears to meet these criteria.  Flakeloaf 11:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm not sure how to use a Wiki and never have before but this has not only inspired me but the article in question will in fact inspire many, who have never "wikied" before to do so. After reading the comments here, it seems that it's a matter of politics. You either keep the article showing good faith and the acceptance of free will or remove it to clearly display a type of bias dictatorship. Are we saying that all articles start off complying with all guidelines? Are all current articles in compliance? I don't think so. That's what makes this look like a bias and deliberate attack. Shame on you all. I hope Wikipedia does not continue practicing singling out certain articles before they have a chance to grow and prosper as this one seem to have. WebAPP has a history of growth and prosperity and that can only be proven with time. Look at the responce it's causing now. I say keep an open mind and let's not make a stand on the importance of Give this article time! Tedcambron 12:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC) — Tedcambron (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment Now would be a good time to consult WP:SOCK WP:SPA as well. Flakeloaf 15:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete both per WP:WEB, and lacks sources. --Core desat  18:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)*
 * Both has to do with editing articles NOT deleting them, aren't you a bit fast in pulling the trigger, have you seen the original article that was there for 2 months? I dont think so. To delete an article because it needs some editing? This is NOT Wikipedia policy and it makes no sense whatever. Monty53 19:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Summary of events so far:

1.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application contributors meant that since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/webapp is redirected to the article about Web_application there was a need to start a new article at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebAPP with a redirect link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebAPP (please check discussion at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application for more information.

2.) An article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebAPP was added as requested and a sysop made a redirect link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web-APP too.

3.) Some sysop added a request for instant delete which was changed by another sysop for a request for more contribution as well as editing. After a long discussion and editing the article was accepted and one removed the tags asking for those.

4.) The original article was surviving without any troubles whatever for over a month and was further edited and added text. Presumingly a user by the name "webapp" added some text he copied from the development site at www.web-app.net a text written by him which consisted on one sentence.

5.) A sysop suspected a copyright violation and deleted the entire article (!).

6.) I came into the picture and since I had no backup whatever of the original article, I decided to submit my own (new) article instead and remove these irrelevant tags about spam and requests for delete, since "we have allready been there and allready did that".

7.) One has decided to restart the discussion of having/deleting/editing the article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebAPP

8.) One has decided to add a vote for deleting of this article without even considering to edit out the original article or teh new article, an action that goes in contradiction to the original guidance of how and when one should add "delete vote".

My question: what is the point to have a new discussion and vote if we have allready been through this! If you guys decide yes/no and tomorrow one sysop will have a bad day (as it happened in this case) and will decide to delete the entire article because some small editable issue what does this discussion above worth? Can any sysop overrule earlier discussion and turn up side down the entire democratic process in Wikipedia? How many more times will we need to go through this deleting discussions? This makes no sense at all.Monty53 19:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phpbb
 * Comment. As the articles' nominator for deletion (and as one not involved in the subject at all until I added a speedy tag to one version earlier this week), all I can say is that, despite the lengthy defense of the subject, no one has done the simple thing, if it is possible, and added references from reliable sources that help establish its notability, which would in turn help one of the two meet WP:WEB (with the other, presumably, then being turned into a redirect).  In other AfDs in which I have been involved, this is often a sign that such sources are not available. Robertissimo 19:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I see the strategy, since no one here realy has a clue what open source scripts/projects are, "lets make them sceptic by minor techniqual issues and they will agree to delete". I have a surprise for you: sources references, history and more will be added and that should not be diffcult, I got approx. 15,000 hits in google when searching for the term "Web Automated Perl Portal". But why couldn't you ask for this BEFORE you started the deletion process, do you expect me to produce all this with a knife over my head? Is that a new Wikipedia policy? Monty53 19:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I also see a strategy. If one decides to take an openly objective view, then the comment is quickly nullified by defamation of the poster by labeling them as some kind of "single purpose user". Treating people in this fasion makes an intellegent person reach a conclusion that there's been a "click" formed in wikipedia and outsiders aren't welcome. I am a human being not a sysop here. Is this what it's all about? Is someone on a self centered mission of sorts? I do have experience with this type of behaviour and can help out but the first step is to own up to the real issue. This is not an uncommon practice but will impede the prosperity of any function and everything conected with it. I hope this helps. If anybody needs help understanding what I've mentioned, please ask. I have a tendancy to believe that most people can see things from a hightened level. Tedcambron (UTC)
 * Ego Challenge I hereby challenge the sysops above whom voted and excuted "delete" to delete these two similliar articles at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phpbb and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YaBB  reason: lack of resources, copyrightsvio (they also copied pasted text from their original sites), and nonnotability. Needless to mention that WebAPP is not less popular open source and free cms portal script. After doing so, come here and tell us that you have no plans of converting Wikipedia into Egopedia. Before I forget, YaBB and WebAPP are sister scripts they departed from each other 5 years ago. phpBB has by the way implemented doorman security idea (which they got by inspiration from WebAPP). Ok no time for talks, sysops show us that you have guts! Monty53 21:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Monty53 is correct about YaBB: the whole Features section is copyvio from . I'm not seeing any of the mentioned problems with Phpbb. ✤ JonHarder talk 02:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Powerful My goodness! By the reasons mentioned, the two articles mentioned,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YaBB

meet the criteria for deletion. I don't think they should be candidate for this either. Are there more? Probably, but let's look at this with an open mind and understanding that people are a complicated creature and we must control our inherent emotions for the good of mankind. I'm sure that once a decision is made we can move forward and that's really what everyone wants to do. Now the question is, will the WedAPP article be given the same amount of leaniency as other articles or will the article be deleted which, in itself, make for an interesting article.Tedcambron(UTC)


 * I stand corrected. Neither article establishes notability. Neither has reliable third-party references. But back on-topic: I am withholding my keep vote pending reliable secondary sources that establish notability. The Kentucky Lake Times article sounds interesting, but the original apparently has gone missing and it is impossible to know what it may have said. The alert of a security problem doesn't do it for me either; Symantec doesn't rate the risk at a particularly high threat level. Has anyone else written about this software? I find the behavior of the defenders of this article, including the recent delete of the AfD notice, disappointing. If more energy continues to be put into contesting and disrupting the process, I will conclude no sources are forthcoming and add my support for deleting the article. ✤ JonHarder talk 15:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I am afraid it is no reason for a party, this guy means business, he will delete YaBB!. Gentlmen I withdraw back my challenge, please do not delete them. YaBB can be improved so can WebAPP, phpBB is so bugged (the code) so it is a service to the public if you delete it, phpBB websites is defaced by dozens everyday. But again this is about the article content, and not the source code. But seriously if we are to discuss notability, please check the forumboards on WebAPP forum support there are over 10,000 well noted posts there by several thousands webmasters from several thousands websites who happened to use the WebAPP free, open source script, its still not the hundreds of thousands, who happen to use Wikipedia, but soon.. Monty53 03:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Request for guidance It appears that one or two sysops here provided false information while deleting important information. It looks like one is trying to create a case for reasons that do not follow Wikipedia policy and guidance, and use these actsin support of representing the case. I am considering to complaint against this unacceptable actions and ask for help in forwarding a complain. Monty53 12:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Note It has been cited a little or non interest whatever by the sysops to discuss the suggested proposal for delete. It was also cited non or very little interest of the sysops to check the logs, original article and updated versions. The only sysop that keeps posting on the case has at start mentioned that he lacks knowledge in the field and asked for help, this help was not provided to him by anyone yet except the article contributors. I therefor ask you (the sysop whom started this discussion) to kindly dismiss the case. Thank you Monty53 13:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

"If more energy continues to be put into contesting and disrupting the process, I will conclude no sources are forthcoming and add my support for deleting the article" If I read this at face value it states that a decison will be based on a condition that has little to nothing to do with the subject. I don't know how wikipedia works but for a decision to not be contested would be indigent of a dictatorship. Not that there's anything wrong with that type of political system. It's just not widely accepted. To state that anything I may have said as disruptive is debateable. I've only tried to help out a worthy cause. If helping the decision making out by contesting a decision is not acceptable here, then I stand corrected and I appologize for any inconvinience but too conclude "no sources are forthcomming" because of it, is deplorable. It's a completely different subject and should not be deluted to make a point. Let's also take a look at how the article has continued to grow not knowing if it will ever be accepted. That should speak volumes. Most people would have given up. Living in uncertainty is not anything I wish on anybody. Gentlemen, please do unto other as you would have done unto you.Tedcambron
 * What's really going on here? It seems that once again I find a serious decision not based on the dynamics of real life, but on "kaotic control". I've studied kaotic science and can explain that more if need be. We have an example of all defenders being categoried as one group and that goup gets labeled in an udesireable fasion. This is not acceptable in the real world as people are individuals and everyone deserves a human right to be unique in thoughts and opinions. I also take exception to the following statement:
 * To JonHarder You are the first sysop to delete the article because you assumed that it was copied from the about section in www.web-app.net (information I got from user webapp), you meant that it was a copivio issue, but it was made clear to you that the poster "webapp" has written the original article and he can not violate copyrights by copying from himself. Why do you allow another sysop complicating the issue even more? According to webapp you asked him to simply edit the original article not to start the 3rd ww. I think that you ought to stop this discussion because it has started by a misunderstanding. And could have been avoided if one would think (ask for editing) before acting (deleting) which is infact the recommended policy from Wikipedia in such issues as you must know. Monty53 21:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete. I've looked at the links provided in the article, and see only one that is a media article (announcing the release of WebAPP) ... the others seem to be download sites and similar. Of course, if I'm wrong and better references are added that do show notability more conclusively, then it shouldn't be deleted. -FisherQueen (Talk) 21:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Have you looked at forums at http://www.web-app.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=forum there are over 10,000 posts by several thousands websites owners, many of them quoted their personal point of view of webapp, yes as bloggs. But again this is not the issue! There was an article there from before that was approved by several sysops. The discussion here started because of a misunderstanding concerning copyvio and not notability. webapp copied one sentence from his own article on another site, and a sysop that cited that thought that the article was a copyvio, but one can not have a copyvio when copying from oneself! Are the people that vote here really check all the details when they vote? If not, please do. Thank you Monty53 21:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Note to the delete nominator You were saying that "ballot tags" is a usuall thing to have in such discussions, this is not correct. There are hardly two articles suggested for delete with this tag (out of hundreds!): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2007_January_18 Thus, it is not a common thing to have. I know you were unhappy about this discussion here at the first place and tried several times deleting the article without a prior discussion or giving a chance for editing. I see this act of insisting on having a non relevant tag here as another attempt of yours to create dramas for no reason whatever. Monty53 21:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well documented vandalism Please check and compare the last changed versions on http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:WebAPP&action=history one sysop and two "new" users (probably the very same sysop) are insisting on deleting an entire links section (for no explanation/reason) whatever and a message calling for an admin to stop this vanadalism. What has happened to Wikipedia? I use Wikipedia alot in school (yes I am a teacher!), I think that I will keep my class away from this "thing" atleast for a while, Wikipedia needs to expell such admins not reward them! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Monty53 (talk • contribs) 22:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
 * You have a (very slight) point there; I was removing the message from the article (we do not post messages in this way, but use the discussion pages and project pages like this one instead) without realising I was also taking out a couple of external links. THere are really too many external links already but I've put them back anyway. Best wishes --Guinnog 22:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have "point", is this why you blocked my ip there now? This is a clear vandalism, you removed the link to Wikipedia article where it was suggested at the first place to make this article. It is a very important link. And you removed it without even discussing it with the article editors, shame on you. You are abusing your power as a sysop. You also removed an important message at the top of the article with important information. This are very cheap tricks to win arguments in. Monty53 22:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * My ip is blocked for no justified reason by a sysop How sweet, I am being asked to edit the article so it will comply with some (new) ideas a sysop discovered after the article was mistakenly deleted for alleged copyvio. And while doing so, I found out that another sysop deleted an entire links section on the article (clear vandalism) and also ban my ip so I can not do any editing at all. Is this the way Wikipedia is working in? I doubt it. I think that I am being tortured by few kids on the block, I just don not understand how they ended up with sysop pistols in their hands, who gave then this power. FOR THE LAST TIME I AM ASKING, HOW CAN I GET A SYS ADMIN TO COME HERE AND SEE THIS POWER ABUSE BY ONE TWO SYSOPS HERE.  Kind regards Monty53 23:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Spam. The creator seems to have a severe attitude problem, viewing this nomination as a personal injustice. Delete. - Mike Rosoft 23:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand that some sysiops here have the need to scratch each other backs, may I suggest that they do this in close rooms and try harder to keep the discussions and actions as relevant as possible? Monty53 23:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.