Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Welthauptstadt Mazedonia


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Consensus here definitely seems in favour of delete rather than rename, but without prejudice to creation of a new article at Skopje 2014. I'm happy to provide a copy of the deleted article if anyone wants to work on converting it at the new title. Olaf Davis (talk) 17:38, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Welthauptstadt Mazedonia

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Apparent hoax / attack page claiming that the city of Skopje is planned to be turned into a monumental capital on the model of Hitler's Welthauptstadt Germania. Quotes one semi-reliable source (an academic presentation mirrored on a blog), but that text, while critical of the architectural development of the city, makes no such exotic claims. A Youtube video cited as an alleged "government view" is quite certainly also a hoax. Photoshopped images documenting the alleged plans are taken from the same hoax video. Otherwise unsourced. Suggest speedy deletion as attack page, but certainly deletion as hoax. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Update: I have to correct myself, in parts: incredible as it sounds, the youtube video apparently is in fact genuine, and related plans under the name of "Skopje 2014" seem to exist . Still, the connection to "Welthauptstadt Germania" is unsourced OR, and the page as a whole thus still an attack page (though, I must personally say, a well-targeted one.) A new page about Skopje 2014, or preferably just a section in the main Skopje article, might still be justifiable, but this page in its present form is useless even as a basis for writing it. (Even if the text can be rewritten, the images will need to be deleted from Commons and treated as non-free here, which means reducing them to only one or two.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep and rename Skopje2014 - There is a great amount of significant coverage from reliable sources like Balkan Insight and EUobserver.. Many more here.  And these are just English language sources.  Probably a lot more in Macedonian.  Obviously any OR POV fork (recreating Naziism?) needs to be deleted and reliable sources are not designating it "Welthauptstadt Mazedonia."  But the topic does appear notable.--Oakshade (talk) 19:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * While I could agree with this, a formal question arises: if we move and rewrite it, should the redirect from the present title stay? If not, we may still need to keep this AfD open to get a formal decision on it. (BTW, I would prefer Skopje 2014 over Skopje2014.) Oh, and sorry for jumping the gun with my initial assumption of a hoax. The amount of bad taste in this project is so staggering I simply couldn't believe my eyes ;-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't object if the name "Welthauptstadt Mazedonia" was deleted after the rename, if that's possible. I have no opinion if it's Skopje 2014 or Skopje2014, as long as one redirects to the other as both appear to be used in reliable sources.--Oakshade (talk) 20:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The project is very much true, and this page is not a hoax. The name of the page initially chosen to be Welthauptstadt Mazedonia is because of two things: the academic paper cited in the article that explains the idea for a "grand national capital" vision for the city and the right wing government who is behind it whose politics and policies are often regarded as somewhat Nazi in the Macedonian public. --Novica (talk) 22:25, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * While I would actually personally agree that this is a godawful project and the analogy with "Germania" is quite apt (in terms of the esthetics, if not the ideology), you do realise now that it is not legitimate to use Wikipedia to promote your own critical assessment of the project, right? Please read WP:No original research and WP:Neutral point of view, in case you haven't. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes of course. I haven't written anything that's my personal critical assessment. I didn't chose the name of the article and even softened the wording around that. I was planning to write more to elaborate the official view, as well as of the critics. I was not aware of the WP:No original research (I assume this is for the direct quotes), but if the article stays I'm sure we could make a good article. When I started writing stuff here, I was really up to making a good article, but I haven't had any time in the last week to write or reference more text. Sorry. Novica (talk) 22:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * But I guess we can't write as fast as they are making the announcements for more new buildings: http://pravda.gov.mk/novost_detail.asp?lang=mak&id=517 http://pravda.gov.mk/documents/2_Krivicen_sud.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Novica (talk • contribs) 23:44, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 03:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Macedonia-related deletion discussions.  —Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Delete This appears to be primarily original research in violation of Wikipedia policy. Even if the project is notable, this article ought to be rewritten from scratch, and certainly not at this title, which appears to be rather POV. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 03:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete This appears to violate WP:No original research and WP:Neutral point of view .Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 03:59, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete Even the defender agrees that this is not a proper title. Legitimate content, if any, could appear in a new NPOV, no original research version under an appropriate title. --Bejnar (talk) 05:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.