Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Westbury Nernewtes


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge with Ashwell, Hertfordshire. Mackensen (talk) 01:08, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Westbury Nernewtes

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

A manorial title that, according to the listed sources (this one in particular) no longer has any actual manorial property attached. No indications that this particular title is in any way notable. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 14:23, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Notable please look at [] The National Manorial Register for England and Wales. It is the wish of ‘The Manorial Guild’ to list all Lordship Titles held in Private Ownership.In order to inform everybody, Who is the Current Legal Owner of these Lordship Titles.Westbury Nernewtes (talk) 15:41, 15 May 2015 (UTC) — Westbury Nernewtes (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * "Honours (Prevention of Abuses) Act, 1925" please also look at LANDED GENTRY REGISTER as all registered with them too, it is notableWestbury Nernewtes (talk) 15:47, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment, please read WP:GNG for the notability criteria required for any Wikipedia article to exist. You should also read WP:NOTDIRECTORY to realise that Wikipedia is not an advertising medium for organisations.  So if The Manorial Guild want to publicise, Wikipedia isn't the place to do it. Nthep (talk) 15:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with nominator, a title that existed in the 14th century, but no longer has land is obscure, and not notable enough for Wikipedia. Fails WP:GNG. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:53, 15 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment There is an active discussion here that may interest you. I do share the concerns about notability. --Drm310 (talk) 15:58, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Please note I have deleted information, just about Westbury Nernewtes Manor, so no rules broken about nobility, hope this will help.Westbury Nernewtes (talk) 16:18, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. As far as I can see, the "National Manorial Register for England and Wales" is not a reliable source. And they can wish to include as much as they want, as long as they follow our guidelines, such as WP:GNG. --Randykitty (talk) 16:21, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:13, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment I believe you have misinterpreted the statement about the "Manorial Guild's wish to list all titles..." The editor was not stating a plan that this organization wishes to list all titles here at Wikipedia, but rather that they have stated on their own website that they wish to list all titles (presumably, on their own website).  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 02:43, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment. I understand your comments I hope we can resolve this problem, many thanks for all your input.Westbury Nernewtes (talk) 10:13, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Weak keep I believe there is enough sourcing to sustain a stub article about this ancient (and no longer existent) manor. Failing that, maybe a redirect to Ashwell, Hertfordshire. As for the Manorial Registry, it is irrelevant IMO; all it lists is the names of people who have purchased the right to use a particular title. That appears to be of great interest to User:Westbury Newnewtes (see their userpage) but is of no interest to Wikipedia. --MelanieN (talk) 14:58, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep There is significant coverage of Westbury Nerneswtes in http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/herts/vol3/pp199-209 (A History of the County of Hertford: Volume 3. Originally published by Victoria County History, London, 1912.). Here is a quote from the book (with the mentions of "Westbury Nernewtes" bolded): "The subsequent descent of this manor is very difficult to trace. Setting aside the references to the manor of Westbury Nernewtes (of which the descent is given below) there is no record of it until 1606, when James I granted 'a messuage called le Westbury' to Thomas Norwood, (fn. 58) who was already possessed of the manor of Westbury Nernewtes. In 1664 a conveyance of Westbury was made to Elizabeth Sone, widow, by Thomas Bromfield, Laurence Marsh and a number of persons who were evidently co-heirs. (fn. 59) In 1678 a settlement was made by Richard Hutchinson, (fn. 60) in whose family it remained (fn. 61) until at least 1728, when Salmon writes that 'the western part of this manor (Westbury) is a farm of Sir Richard Hutchinson's, which holds of Sir George Humble,' (fn. 62) the Humbles, as hereafter shown, being at this date owners of Westbury Nernewtes. Subsequently it passed to the Leheups. William Leheup was holding in 1779 (fn. 63) and Michael Peter Leheup in 1809. (fn. 64) Westbury Farm still remains a property quite separate from the manor of Westbury Nernewtes (see below). It is situated on the west of the village. Westbury Farm has a homestead moat. The Buckinghamshire family of Nernewt (Nernuyt) held land in Ashwell in the 14th century which was probably originally part of the Abbot of Westminster's manor. (fn. 65) This land became the manor of WESTBURY NERNEWTES. In 1340 Sir John Nernewt of Burnham and Fleet Marston, Bucks., settled 'two thirds of one messuage, two mills, 40 acres of land, 10 acres of meadow and 18 marks' rent in Ashwell and Hinxworth' upon his son and heir John, (fn. 67) whose daughter Elizabeth, wife of John Hertishorne, inherited the property. (fn. 67) John Hertishorne (together with two others, presumably his feoffees) was holding 'half a fee in Ashwell which John Nernewt lately held there' in 1428. (fn. 68) The Nernewt property is said to have passed by female line to the Harveys, and on the death of Sir George Harvey (before 1520) to have been purchased by the Lees. (fn. 69) This descent is doubtful, but the Lees did acquire possession of Westbury Nernewtes. In 1540–1 a conveyance by Richard Heigham and his wife Mary, Thomas Colt and Thomas Lysley was made to Anthony Lee, kt., of a moiety of the Buckinghamshire manors and of the manor of Westbury in Ashwell. (fn. 70) After this the connexion with Buckinghamshire ceases. In 1557 this manor (henceforward invariably called Westbury Nernewtes) was conveyed by William Hawtrey and Agnes his wife to Thomas Norwood, (fn. 71) son and heir of William Norwood of Ashwell. Thomas was succeeded at Westbury Nernewtes by his son Nicholas, and Nicholas by his nephew Tirringham Norwood, who in 1611 sold this manor to Edward Waller alias Warren. (fn. 72) Chauncy says that Edward Waller conveyed it to Andrew Laut, citizen of London, whose son Andrew Laut (of Thorpe Underwood, Northamptonshire) was lord of the manor at the date of writing (1700). (fn. 73) The marriage of Sarah daughter and co-heir of Andrew Laut to Sir John Humble brought Westbury Nernewtes to the Humbles. (fn. 74) Elizabeth Humble, daughter-in-law of Sir John, who survived both her husband and her only son, bequeathed this property by her will of 1758 (proved in March 1770–1) to her brother the Hon. Charles Vane, (fn. 75) from whom it passed in 1789 to John Pennell, and on the latter's death in 1813 to his daughter Margaret, the wife of Bernard Geary Snow of Highgate. On the latter's death the manor went to his widow for life, and after her death was divided among his children by Margaret Pennell and by a former wife. Henrietta, a daughter of the former marriage, died unmarried, leaving her share of the property to her betrothed, the Rev. J. B. Smith. Anna Maria, a daughter of the Pennell marriage, married Mr. Edward King Fordham of Ashwell Bury, who bought up all the shares of the manor (including Smith's) excepting that of the Rev. John Pennell Snow, an elder brother of Anna Maria. This latter share (one-sixth) was bequeathed by Mr. Snow to Rupert Donald Fordham, who sold it to Mr. Edward Snow Fordham, who had already (in 1889) inherited the remaining five-sixths of the manor from his father and is the present lord of the manor. The tenants are, however, nearly all enfranchised and the manorial rights have lapsed. (fn. 76)" There is also significant coverage of the subject in http://stalbanshistory.org/documents/1885.04.pdf. There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Westbury Nernewtes to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 03:14, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sam Walton (talk) 11:05, 25 May 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Davewild (talk) 17:50, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge with Ashwell,_Hertfordshire. It's not that this information doesn't have a place in WP, it's just that it appears that there isn't enough to say for it to have its own article. There's nothing in the sources about the "Manor" other than its ownership history, which reads like a series of begats and deed transfers. It could, however, be considered a significant Ashwell-related place. There is information in that article about the village of Ashwell but no section relating to the civil parish, which could be a new section and could include the information about the existence of this property. LaMona (talk) 01:42, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge with Ashwell, Hertfordshire. There is sufficnet evidence that the manor exists/ed.  We encourage artifcles on every village, but I do not think that can descend to every manor, as some will have ended off a a single farm.  The manorial documents register will merely indicate that the manor existed and where the manor rolls are (or were when last heard of).  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:58, 6 June 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.