Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Westfield Mount Druitt


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   redirect to List of Westfield Group shopping centres in Australia .  MBisanz  talk 00:06, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Westfield Mount Druitt

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Fails WP:GNG and WP:ORG. Both of these guidelines explicitly state that if a shopping centre has not received significant coverage in reliable sources then we should not have an article on that topic. The only coverage I can find is crime-related incidents as well as trivial mentions, which is not per WP:GNG and WP:ORG enough to contain an article on this topic. Any relevant information is adequately covered in the respective article about the area. Till 23:09, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Weak keep (striking poor-taste joke) Best. AFD. Ever. - Till, are you Australian? If so, you understand why picking on the people of Mount Druitt is particularly cruel. If not then, my friend, you have just earned yourself honorary Australian citizenship. Without WP:OTHERSTUFF'ing this too severely, all Australian Westfield shopping centres have articles and most have far less coverage that this one (see Westfield Chatswood, where there has never been a brawl the likes of which we've seen at Mount Druitt). If it doesn't meet the criteria then we should talk about getting rid of it, but leaving Westfield Australia with one red-link seems a bit harsh, especially this one. Thoughts? Stalwart 111  03:26, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed, if these shopping centres that you claim have less coverage than this then feel free to AfD them. I will myself in fact. Till  05:30, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * As an aside, I stumbled upon WP:NPLACE at WP:OUTCOMES which would seem to suggest that larger regional shopping centres (like these) tend to be kept at AFD. But I have no issue with you "trying the case" regardless. Stalwart 111  05:35, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Shopping centres are not notable because of their size. Shopping centres are notable if they have been the subject of significant coverage in multiple, reliable sources. Till  05:42, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to agree that they shouldn't be; that's just the "common outcome". I suppose there might also be an assumption that any large regional shopping centre would have at least received significant coverage when it was being proposed or when it opened, even if that was so far back that the coverage isn't online. Per WP:NOTTEMP, that old coverage would still count toward notability. Stalwart 111  05:52, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That may be the case, but WP:ORG explicitly states that all content must be verifiable, and if no independent, third-party, reliable sources can be found on a topic, then Wikipedia should not have an article on it. In other words, unless reliable sources are brought forward, we should not have an article on this topic. Till  05:58, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed, which makes me wonder where such a definitive "common outcomes" statement came from, given it would seem to contradict other guidelines/policies. Not sure. Stalwart 111  08:40, 7 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete the only independent sources relate to some crime that happened there but don't actually have in depth coverage of the mall. Merge to List of Westfield Group shopping centres in Australia also an option. Stuartyeates (talk) 05:45, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:13, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Shopping malls-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:13, 7 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete found some articles on a gang fight, and a machete attack, and an article on it being sold? (WRAP - Westfield Trust & SAS buy Westfield Mt Druitt for $236m. 18 October 2000 Australian Associated Press)..not really indepth coverage of it, in any insightful fashion. Couldn't see any articles on it being built Deathlibrarian (talk) 14:07, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 00:10, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Merge and redirect into List of Westfield Group shopping centres in Australia. It is still a reasonable search term and at least a redirect will get the reader to the proper area with some information about the center.  Since we serve the reader, a redirect serves them best.  Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;  Join WER 02:40, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * List of Westfield Group shopping centres in Australia is a bad target because that article merely lists the existing Westfield shopping centres as opposed to actually covering them. There is also barely any relevant information to merge, and the topic is adequately covered on the article about the area. Page statistics show that this article gets as little as one view in a day, therefore a redirect is not crucial. WP:N recommends deletion of topics that fail notability. Till  03:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty much on the fence about whether this is notable or not, but I do think that Till's recent deletion of relevant and sourced material that might tend to show notability was inappropriate, especially in the middle of the AfD, and I have restored it.--Arxiloxos (talk) 04:08, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Your addition and restoration of material that violates Wikipedia's WP:NOTNEWS policy was inappropriate. Read WP:ORG and WP:NOT next time. Till  04:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Till, when you are nominating an article, it is important that you err on the conservative side when it comes to editing the article. That means leaving in things that might violate NOTNEWS and trusting that we aren't fools and can separate the wheat from the chaff without help.  AFD isn't about winning, it is about discussing the best outcome.  The list may be a less than prime target, but it is still the best place because the reader would be taken to a page that has at least some basic and accurate information.  And let us not forget that the only reason we are here at all is for the benefit of the reader. Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;  Join WER 12:22, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * thinks that the information violating WP:NOTNEWS shows notability which is completely wrong. He obviously doesn't know anything about WP:ORG and WP:NOT which he should have read before coming here. If anything, the article's best redirect target is the Mount Druitt article because that's where the shopping centre is actually discussed. But like said before, a redirect serves no purpose as the page gets one view in a day. There are no readers that would be benefited because there aren't any.  Till  00:13, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sometimes, you just have to leave it to the closer and the community and accept what they conclude. Bludgeoning the point doesn't help.  It isn't necessary that everyone be convinced of your point of view.  It isn't a debate, it isn't about winning or losing, it's a discussion.  And we don't know how many readers will look for it next year anyway.  Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;  Join WER 02:42, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I initiated this discussion and I have a right to respond to people's comments. It is unfair for the editors' hard work of building strong arguments for deletion to be flushed down the drain. Till  03:20, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak keep because, as Stalwart111 points out, this is part of well-organized existing comprehensive coverage of Westfield's clearly notable activities in Australia. Who is it helping to generate new redlinks in these circumstances?  Alternatively, redirect as suggested by Dennis Brown.  Till's arguments against that redirect are unpersuasive. The list can (and probably should) be expanded with information.  And, if the article gets one view a day, so what?  The point of an encyclopedia is to accumulate information so it's there when someone needs it; it's not all going to be popular. --Arxiloxos (talk)
 * Unfortunately for you, Stalwart111's rationale relies heavily on WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, a poor argument to keep an article. As a keep !voter you have an obligation to demonstrate how this topic meets WP:GNG and WP:ORG by providing evidence. So far, none of the keep !voters have actually brought sources forward that would indicate that this topic meets notability guidelines. Unless multiple, reliable sources are brought forward, this article should be deleted. Till  10:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge to List of Westfield Group shopping centres in Australia per Dennis Brown, and re-work that target article. Here's what I have in mind:
 * As has been pointed out above, that's a list article, and as such not the best target for a merge.
 * There's already a larger list article, List of Westfield Group shopping centres with the Australian list broken out to a separate list article.
 * As has also been pointed out above, there are several other articles in the Australia list that really ought also to be merged.
 * A list article (as has also been pointed out above), tends to nudge editors toward creating articles to "fix" the redlinks.
 * Westfield Group will undoubtedly keep on building more malls, with many of them non-notable for years or indefinitely.
 * So one solution to all this would be to convert List of Westfield Group shopping centres in Australia from a list article to Westfield Group shopping centres in Australia. Merge in any other articles on non-notable Australian malls to that new "container" article. For the articles on really notable malls, we simply link with a tag as appropriate. We'd then have an article in which to write about new Westfield malls in Australia, without adding yet another redlink to a list, or creating yet another article about yet another low-notability mall.
 * Getting consensus for merge and then merging the low-notability articles will take a bit of work, but not too much. I'd be happy to help with all that, if anyone thinks this proposal is a good idea. Altered Walter (talk) 21:16, 14 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Merge to List of Westfield Group shopping centres in Australia, then redirect. Northamerica1000(talk) 22:51, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. In the probable and typical event of this Afd being closed as "merge", and then months passing by without any sort of action taking place (like every other merge close), I have followed WP:BOLD and merged the information into the suggested article myself. Therefore I would suggest that the closing administrator ignores the merge suggestion and simply deletes or redirects (even though it gets no views!) this article. Till  13:57, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.