Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White jazz


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Lankiveil (speak to me) 09:46, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

White jazz
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This article constitutes a synthesis of previously published research. This may stem from a misunderstanding on the part of the article writer about the participation of whites in jazz music and the creation of genre boundaries. So far as I am aware, when most jazz scholars refer to "white jazz musicians", they are referring to jazz performers according to race (white...jazz musicians) rather than noting musicians who are playing a specific genre of music (white jazz...musicians), and most of the wikilinks coming in to this page have the former meaning rather than the latter.

Of the three citations given, I have two of them in front of me. Philip Larkin's book has a short article about Bix Beiderbecke, a white...jazz musician who was, and is, lauded as one of the most expressive white performers of the 1920s. But Beiderbecke did not play a type of music distinct in terms of genre from his black contemporaries such as Louis Armstrong; he had a personal style, but calling it "expressive of whiteness" is, at best, unclear, since many black musicians in the 1920s played "sweet" ("white"?) jazz, and many white musicians played "hot" ("black"?) jazz. The Midwest Encyclopedia entry is not a top-level musical resource and mostly notes the growth of both white and black jazz musicianship in middle America. I don't have the Jones reading, and I admit that, of the three, he is the most likely to try and carve out a specifically white jazz as opposed to black jazz music, but without a general scholarly or critical consensus that such a division is warranted, it's not enough on which to hang an article. "White jazz", as a genre label, is not in common use anywhere I'm aware of, and has no entry in the Grove Dictionary of Jazz; the closest thing I can think of that would support this is Richard Sudhalter's book Lost Chords, which argues that twentieth-century jazz historiography has underrepresented the historical contributions of white musicians to jazz. Yet Sudhalter's own framing undermines the very idea of a genre-separated "white jazz" - I quote from the introduction: "the music may not be so much a black American experience as an American experience, with various racial and ethnic groups playing indispensable and interlocking roles. Not just a handful of white musicians, but many, now appear to have been decisive in the making of jazz." (p. xvii; emphasis his).

It's certainly the case that there is much to say about the relationship between jazz and racial identity in America, and there are other articles which should cover this in greater detail; jazz and race record could both be expanded on this topic, and perhaps a new article, on jazz and race, is warranted, as there continues to be a flood of scholarship impinging on historical and sociocultural aspects of this area. But "white jazz", as a separate genre of music embodying or promulgating whiteness, is original research at best, and in fact probably inadvertently misrepresentative. Chubbles (talk) 00:54, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Neelix (talk) 11:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete - Not a legitimate genre covered in multiple published sources. Carrite (talk) 03:38, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The OED recognises it. Who are you to say that this is not "legitimate"? Warden (talk) 12:39, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep - This article does not constitute synthesis; each of the sources make independent statements about "white jazz" as distinct from "white jazz musicians". There are plenty more sources on the topic of "white jazz" and not just "white jazz musicians", including the following:, , , , , , . At the very least, the term should redirect to a section of the main Jazz article called "Race" or something similar. Neelix (talk) 03:59, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I encourage editors to look through the sources provided above and see the diversity of uses afoot. I don't have a preview for the first one, but the JazzTimes one is just an ad for the Sudhalter book I mentioned above, about whites and their contributions to jazz from the 1910s through World War II. The Japan Pop book quotes a 1969 essay about ethnicity as it related to contemporaneous jazz players and audiences; we're far removed from Bix Beiderbecke and a midwestern, uniquely "white" jazz music. The Rough Guide is clearly talking about musicians who were white, playing in a style (in the 1910s) that was at the time broadly construed as "race music". The remaining three books talk about 1920s-era jazz, and so are localized around the time Neelix's article currently addresses, but Making Jazz French mostly quotes other musicians and holds the categories of "black" jazz and "white" jazz in quotation marks. That leaves the Frith and the Dictionary of the Avant-Gardes; Frith's a careful and perceptive writer, and I'd argue he is just using that as an ironic shorthand, but read for yourself and decide. Only the Dictionary of the Avant-Gardes follows Neelix's line of argument; I respectfully disagree with that author's framing of style in terms of "soul", but it's a published source.


 * My point in all this is that there is no common usage here, and that these important topics are better served in an article more broadly discussing racial aspects of jazz music with a better title and a less straitjacketed definition of genre. The terms "black jazz" and "white jazz" should probably redirect to it, and the insightful comments in the Japan Pop book on pp. 35-36 would be an excellent starting point. Chubbles (talk) 04:37, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I just created a "Race" section on the Jazz article; it needs to be expanded, but it's a start. I would be quite content with "white jazz" redirecting to that section. I simply do not believe deletion is the solution; we seem to agree that there is valid, encyclopedic content on the subject. No matter how controversial the issue is or how diverse the views are on the subject, "white jazz" is a concept and a term that has been used in the literature. Neelix (talk) 14:10, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete This article surprised me when I first saw it a few days ago: strong sources are required to state that "white jazz" is a "genre". The Larkin piece uses "white jazz" only in its concluding section, without clarifying how it is to be interpreted; p. 92 has "he established himself as the greatest white jazzman", which I interpret in the same way as Chubbles: white person who played jazz. I also agree with Chubbles' reading of the seven additional sources offered by Neelix. The American Midwest: An Interpretive Encyclopedia does use "white jazz" in contrast (unspecified in detail) to "black jazz", but, from the next sentence, uses "white" to modify words such as "players" and "musicians", but not "music", "style", "genre", etc. I have not seen the Amiri Baraka book either, but it is important to note that he is a controversial figure in jazz commentary, particularly for his views on race.


 * Given that the claimed "genre" should have been in existence for around 90 years, there should be lots of evidence that "white jazz" is an accepted term. What has been presented as evidence is a combination of one interpretation of what is in the sources and (assuming good faith) one writer's (Amiri Baraka) line of argument. The article is thus either synthesis or unsupported by a sufficient number of original sources. As Chubbles suggests, the role of race in jazz requires greater stressing in the articles available in Wikipedia, but a separate article on one part which is at most a fringe interpretation is not justified by the available evidence. EddieHugh (talk) 10:52, 23 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete I've followed the history of jazz for many years, and acknowledge that there were white jazz bands  who played jazz following on and imitating sometimes in a corny or commercial way (Original Dixieland Jazz Band, Paul Whiteman) the music of black jazz bands such as those of Louis Armstrong,. Then there were white performers (Bix) whose innovations were admired by Armstrong and others. But there were not really separate genres as the article states. The article contains original research, and the nominators criticisms are well taken. Edison (talk) 17:09, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep There are several books which cover this topic including:
 * Lost Chords: White Musicians and Their Contribution to Jazz, 1915-1945
 * Cats of Any Color: Jazz Black and White
 * Jazz in black and white: race, culture, and identity in the jazz community
 * Such sources do not just focus upon race (and gender) but also upon the associated musical differences. For example, Artistic Strategies and Social Class in Modern Jazz — "The new modern jazz style of cool jazz in the fifties was performed by predominantly white jazz musicians ... This general difference between black jazz musicians and white jazz musicians was in part the result of ..."  There is clearly plenty to say here.  For a similar article which has been further developed, see British blues which describes the way in which white Englishmen took an African-American genre and made something of it. Warden (talk) 17:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Your linked source actually provides further evidence for deletion: the words "white jazz" are in "white jazz musicians" except for one instance, which is ""white" jazz", again (see above) in contrast (unspecified in detail) to ""black" jazz". The point being discussed is not whether white people play(ed) jazz in some different ways, but whether "White jazz is a jazz music genre", as claimed in the opening sentence. Some direct quotes from the additional sources you suggest, clearly showing that "white jazz" is a term used to refer to a specific genre, would help the cause for keeping, but the nominator has already countered the first book... EddieHugh (talk) 18:32, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This discussion is not a determination of whether or not white jazz is a distinct music genre; it is clear that at least some sources suggest that it is, and several more refer to it as an entity without making a claim about its status as a genre. The point is that "white jazz" is a concept that is discussed in multiple reliable, secondary sources and should therefore be covered on Wikipedia. We can keep it as a standalone article or we can merge it elsewhere, but deletion doesn't solve anything. Neelix (talk) 16:41, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This does not solve the WP:OR or WP:SYN issues here. The topic discussed in multiple, reliable, secondary sources is not a "genre of music which expresses whiteness". It is jazz and race, and I encourage the development of a more nuanced and NPOV article on this topic at that title or a similar one. Chubbles (talk) 18:03, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If you have WP:OR or WP:SYN concerns, you can address them through normal editing. That an article is deemed to be poorly written is not a reason for deletion. Neelix (talk) 10:54, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The Oxford English Dictionary has an entry for white jazz which it defines as "jazz as played by white musicians" and supports this with sources which say, for example, "There seem to have been white bands almost from the start. ‘Papa’ Jack Laine led bands in New Orleans from 1891. He is known as the ‘father’ of white jazz.".  This well-establishes it as a concept and so we should include it ahead of the numerous supposed genres in Wikipedia such as math rock, pornogrind or metalcore, which have no such entries.  What we say about this jazz played by white musicians is a matter of ordinary editing, not deletion, and there is no shortage of sources to draw upon, including entire books such as those which I have listed.  Please see our editing policy. Warden (talk) 12:35, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep If the Oxford English Dictionary defines it, then its a real thing. Books and news sources found cover it also.  The article should list famous examples of this, and information on when it emerged.   D r e a m Focus  18:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Bad vote. Please read WP:DICDEF  p  b  p  17:26, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Its not just a definition, its a genre of music.  D r e a m Focus  00:36, 27 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Merge or delete I'm not comfortable separating jazz into "black jazz" and "white jazz". I am reasonably certain that in the preponderance of jazz subgenres, there are both black and white musicians.  This is a poor way to bifurcate jazz  p  b  p  00:57, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The discussion has been open for almost a week, and there is still almost no presented evidence that 'white jazz' is used as a genre. The opening sentence is now "White jazz is jazz played by white musicians", with one source that is the same as for the previous opening claim that "White jazz is a jazz music genre", and another that is a dictionary definition: WP:DICDEF. Even as a dictionary definition, it makes no sense – what does a band of 2 white and 2 black musicians play? – and further illustrates the confusion over how 'white jazz' as a term has been used. Some of the content from the article has been moved to jazz; this can be treated as a merge, so White jazz can now be removed by making the merge formal. EddieHugh (talk) 12:16, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Several of the sources presented refer to "white jazz" as a genre. Even if they did not, a plethora of sources refer to "white jazz" as a concept, demonstrating notability. Controversy over the definition is something to expand the article with; it is not a reason for deletion. Neelix (talk) 04:18, 28 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: Regardless of whether a separate article should exist, I think the current content who easily be fit within the jazz article, where I feel it would work better if we really are writing an encyclopedia. I'm a little iffy on whether "white jazz" is independently notable, its usage is nothing like blue-eyed soul.--Milowent • hasspoken  19:47, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.