Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Who Shot Ya?


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Juliette Han (talk) 11:53, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Who Shot Ya?

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Been visiting this article every now and then for some time now. Until most recently, it’s long been composed as a list of quotations sourced by unreliable user-generated lyric websites and copyright infringing inline YouTube clip citations. Also seems to be a magnet for original research. It would appear the article–as well as the average IP, sockpuppet/throway account and registered editor–is more concerned with stringing together references and rumors associated with various, often disputed events orbiting the song at the time of the recording, rather than structuring the page on the song itself. Moreover, much of the actual criticism I’ve come across is self-professed speculation pertaining to the purposely ambiguous allusions made throughout the lyrics.

Combine all that with the fact it didn’t chart and was not released as a single. Does not meet WP:NSONG. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ascribe4 (talk • contribs)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. —  HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 09:35, 31 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment. This AfD was incomplete. I added the banner on the article, added discussion headers, and relisted as today's date. — HELL KNOWZ   ▎TALK 09:37, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep: Clearly notable. The immediately accessible articles on Slate, MTV News and Vibe make the notability clear, even without delving into the book references. The current quality of the article and the intentions of some of the contributors do not affect the notability of the topic. AfD is not cleanup. — Toughpigs (talk) 18:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep - Even after excising all the problematic sources, there would still be more than enough RS. Notable not only to rap, but to general '90s pop culture. Caro7200 (talk) 12:53, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:NOTCLEANUP - The article definitely needs to have a fair amount of original research and fancruft removed, but as was said above, that is a matter of cleanup which has no relevance for the song's notability. There is plenty of reliable evidence that the song has a place in rap history, as part of the big east/west feud and for fueling plenty of future rap developments. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 13:21, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep: As the present article's main author, but having first reached the article only a few days ago, I have deleted unreliable sources and included only reliable sources to heed due weight. (XXL and The Source are reliable sources for beliefs and reputations in the rap community.) Still, in edit notes, I myself have suggested that some content, as in section "Pervasive suspicions", would optimally go elsewhere—in a dedicated, succinct, tidy article or section like "Tupac and Biggie". (I mean this in contrast to the massive, bloated, convoluted articles at present on related topics.) Yet until such exists, lack of the content here would gratuitously shroud the "Who Shot Ya" story and impact. Deleting the saga of friendship, fallout, and accusations among, plus statements by NYPD detectives about, the central persons—including speculations that Tupac had shot himself—unrealistically shutters view of the song, which, not an abstract artistic creation, always implied guarded knowledge, insinuation, accusation, and menace. Even if abstract art were Biggie's intention, he never exerted appreciable effort to debunk the contrary, consensus view. Biggie's assertion that he wrote the song well before the November 1994 shooting is fully compatible with, or even supports, the consensus view, although I never so editorialize. The article covers only the central persons and the minimal, mainstream events or facts implied by "Who Shot Ya"—in November 1994 at Quad studios or who potentially would on, he raps, "Brooklyn streets"—a saga that explains, well arguably, some 80% of the song's sociocultural impact. As to the allegation of "fancruft", I was never a Biggie fan, and in 1999 outgrew the influence of Tupac's persona on my life. I've evolved opinions on and critiques of the persons, personae, events, reasons, and consequences, but none of these are in the article, which would be much different if it were my opinion piece. If the article seems to one like original research, I ask, please, to vet the sources, whereby one may ultimately discern that I simply, diligently whittled the morass of circulating claims to the saga's undisputed core via authoritative consensus, so that readers don't have to undertake that arduous task merely to ponder "Who Shot Ya" through an accurate historical lens. This is not to say that the article cannot be improved through criticism and assistance, but merely that it lacks the glaring, pervasive defects alleged. — Occurring (talk) 14:55, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep: Article easily meets WP:NSONG. ASTIG😎  (ICE T • ICE CUBE) 04:32, 2 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.