Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Who Wants to Be a Millionaire (season 21)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Who Wants to Be a Millionaire (American game show). A substantial portion of the discussion revolves around whether or not we should be having this AfD. Given that the show is young it would be possible for it to not be notable in April and have passed GNG by now. However, the consensus of participating editors is that this incarnation/version/season (or whatever word you prefer to for this article topic) is not independently notable. As there is an alternative to deletion, redirect is the consensus outcome. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:12, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Who Wants to Be a Millionaire (season 21)
Recreation of article removed through prior AFD on 25 April 2020. No details have changed in the eight weeks since the prior AFD closure. Subject adequately covered in Who Wants to Be a Millionaire (American game show). AldezD (talk) 18:52, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. AldezD (talk) 18:52, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. AldezD (talk) 18:52, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. AldezD (talk) 18:52, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

AfDs related to this article: 25 April 2020 AFD: Other episode lists of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire:  Other game show episode lists:
 * Keep - this article is on the revival of the show Who Wants to Be a Millionaire which is now being hosted by Jimmy Kimmel. Saying that this is like making a page about one season, and only one is undercutting the situation. On the show's official website, ABC marks the episode as "Season 1" as it's a revival of the show (which was canceled in 2019). This new season has a new host, a different broadcasting system (no audience), and features celebrity contestants, rather than normal ones. The article also has enough references notable for its own page. Because of WP:SUSTAINED, I believe that the article's original reason for deletion has been overruled, as the series has been renewed for a second season (twenty-second overall). Once again, I'm saying "Keep" as this article has enough reviews, viewing information, and references to not be deleted. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 20:00, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Reply—This is not a new version of the show, just as there are not four articles for the separate runs of Jeopardy! from 1964–75, weekly syndicated in 1975, syndicated 1978–79 and syndicated 1984–present, nor are there separate articles for each season of Millionaire. It's the same Who Wants to Be a Millionaire program with minor rule changes, which is all covered in the parent article. One series of eight special episodes featuring celebrities does not meet MOS:TV, MOS:EPISODE, MOS:N. It does not have "enough references notable for its own page"—19 of the 25 references are television ratings. Nothing has changed from the deletion discussion that closed eight weeks ago. You are re-creating a page based upon your own opinion that was previously deleted per consensus. AldezD (talk) 20:25, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Six non-rating references are still more than enough to apply for WP:GNG. The difference from the original deleted article (and the reason this article should stay) is that it has been renewed for a second season. The article in question is of a revival, making it notable enough for its own article. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 20:57, 27 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Move - I've been thinking about your reasoning for a long time @AldezD, and I thought about something. This is a revival of the show Who Wants to Be a Millionaire. The official website, Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic and many other websites count this as its very own show, and I have been thinking that Wikipedia should too. You're right that it would seem off if one out of twenty-one seasons of the show received an article, so I am suggesting that we move this one (after editing it a little bit), to Who Wants to Be a Millionaire (2020 game show), as it has enough information to be notable for its own page, and once again, is a revival of the original series (which has never happened before) and it is being counted as an original series (apart from the rest) by various websites. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 12:59, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose to moving—This is not a separate program (i.e., not "2020 game show") from Who Wants to Be a Millionaire. What you are proposing is simply renaming this article that you recreated after consensus from a prior AFD was to delete it. This article does not meet the guidelines linked above. It is not notable for it's own page. The prior AFD addresses this. Who Wants to Be a Millionaire (American game show) contains all necessary details about the eight 2020 episodes. AldezD (talk) 13:57, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep - Well, in that case, I stand with my original choice that WP:SUSTAINED can apply to this article. The show has a new way to play, a new host, is a reboot, has more coverage, and has enough information to remain its own article. Anyone could argue that this is a different show altogether, and that it also could be moved to Who Wants to Be a Millionaire (2020 game show) -- Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 14:36, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * KEEP Television shows should have articles for their episodes if it list valid information such as the ratings.  D r e a m Focus  17:52, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Move - I think the best way to deal with this AfD is to move the article to Who Wants to Be a Millionaire (2020 game show). @AldezD makes a point by saying that one season shouldn't have an article if they rest don't, but this isn't really part of the original either. It's a reboot, a revival, and I believe that it is notable for its article, but that it should be moved to a page article that describes it as its own show. If you visit my sandbox, you can see how the article would look if moved. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 18:02, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect Consistent with the previous recent AFD and my comment there. WP:NOTSTATS: We don't have articles on every entity on television just to maintain viewship data. If kept the current title is appropriate. Reywas92Talk 18:42, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is a recreate from the previous AfD which closed as redirect: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Who Wants to Be a Millionaire (American game show, season 21). However I don't even think a redirect is sufficient in this case. This goes by the consensus that this series doesn't require articles for each individual season, as there are none others for the first twenty seasons. Ajf773 (talk) 19:59, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep - After reading the entire AfD, which changed my opinion from keep to move back to keep, I need to announce my final stance. I suggest we keep this article as it is notable for its own page. It has enough reviews, information, and references to stay and the original AfD can be cleared because I believe WP:SUSTAINED still stands. The article is of a reboot, and has way too much information to simply delete or redirect, so I suggest we keep it. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 20:18, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I have struck out your previous votes. Ajf773 (talk) 20:31, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment—This recreation of a deleted article does not have "way too much information". It has episode ratings and celebrity contestants, and unsourced winnings for each celebrity. Critical Reception can be added to the parent article. AldezD (talk) 20:40, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Episode summaries (including winnings) can be verified by the episode itself, this isn't "unsourced" as it's not necessary to say "X happened in the show on date. Citation: "Episode 1". Show Aired on date". Not that I disagree with the point, but just FYI. Reywas92Talk 23:01, 29 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Redirect - firstly, I’m deeply troubled that this article has been recreated so quickly after AfD consensus was against a stand-alone article merely eight weeks ago. Secondly, a new host and some new prizes does not equal a “revamp” or “reboot” - it’s just a new season. There’s nothing in this article that can’t be included in the parent article. If editors believe that there’s too much information, we perhaps need to go down the route of looking at WP:FANCRUFT and deleting unsourced records of individual episodes or appearances. Cardiffbear88 (talk) 21:46, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It wasn't eight weeks ago, it was 25 April 2020, that three months ago.  And more people are participating in it this time.  Consensus can change.  The main article doesn't have room to list the ratings for every single episode in a show that's been around for this many seasons.  That is valid information an encyclopedia should have.   D r e a m Focus  22:06, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Dream Focus Whether eight weeks or twelve, it is still highly inappropriate to recreate an article following deletion, as per WP:RADP. Consensus does not change this significantly within twelve weeks. Regarding your views on listing every single episode of a programme such as this - again, I feel this is highly inappropriate as per WP:EPISODE. Cardiffbear88 (talk) 22:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete or Redirect - I don't normally comment on AfDs apart from ones I've created/started, but I have some thoughts on this, so thought I'd share. First, while I didn't participate in the previous one, from the comments in this, I've seen there was a previous AfD on a similar article that resulted in a redirect. This article definitely seems like a roundabout way at getting around the previous AfD, even the titles of them alone tell that (Who Wants to Be a Millionaire (American game show, season 21) and Who Wants to Be a Millionaire (season 21)). Secondly, whether keeping, deleting, or redirecting this, it's definitely original research referring to this as 'season 21'. While I'm sure there's other series/game shows with special exceptions, we have sources stating this is a 'new' series', with the press release that Millionaire was renewed referring to the renewal being for a second season. Thirdly, regarding what others have said in this AfD, I really don't agree that something like the ratings is enough to warrant keeping this. WP:NOTSTATS and whatever else goes against that entirely. If the main (or one of the main) points of keeping a TV series article is for the ratings alone, there definitely needs to be some more notability for keeping it. Lastly, if this were to be considered as season 21, I still wouldn't see a reason as to why only one of the 21 seasons is worth having an article on. The information on this 'season' or 'new series' can easily be included on the parent article, probably either in the 'Broadcast history' section or the 'Special editions' section (like it currently is, but the info currently there can easily be expanded on). Should also be noted that Nickelodeon's Double Dare has a similar history with different versions over the years, including a recent 2018 reboot/revival. The 2018/19 info is included in the franchise article, rather than having a separate article created just for the 2018 version. I see no reason the same can't be done in this scenario. Magitroopa (talk) 02:27, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect to the article about the show itself. Having pages for each season is cloying.TH1980 (talk) 03:59, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Move - This is why the option to move the article is still in mind. A reboot has the chance to have its own article considering the circumstances. The article features celebrities, has valid info on the new way the show is made and broadcasted, and is notable for its own page. It could be moved into something like Who Wants to Be a Millionaire (2020 game show) and I believe that option is still valid. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 12:46, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Some Dude From North Carolina you’ve mentioned “the new way the show is made“ - do you mean via video link because of COVID? I feel strongly that we shouldn’t be creating new pages for every single current television programme because they’re filmed in lockdown. Similarly, we don’t have a new page every time a new host joins a show. I honestly fail to see the significant differences of this season from others, that couldn’t be incorporated into the parent article. Cardiffbear88 (talk) 15:10, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Reply - Significant differences. 1. The first revival of the show, ever. 2. Aired during the COVID-19 pandemic. 3. Featured celebrity contestants. 4. New host, new rules. 5. Has been renewed so WP:SUSTAINED applies to the original AfD. 6. Ratings, viewing data, and reviews can be seen by readers. All of these are significant differences that make the article notable for its own page. Saying this is not notable is like saying the spin-off/reboot of Family Feud is also not notable, which it is. The article has a lot of info, and just deleting it, redirecting it or merging it wouldn't make much sense. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 15:28, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment—@Some Dude From North Carolina 1. It is not the first revival of the show "ever". Who Wants to Be a Millionaire (American game show) aired in 2004, two years after the original regular ABC series ended. That version had significant rule changes, both offering bigger prizes and new lifelines. These are significant differences but do not warrant a separate article for Super Millionaire. Your #2 above, aired during a pandemic? So what? That does not mean it's appropriate to recreate an article previously deleted per consensus. 3. Other celebrity editions have aired since 1999. Those do not have separate articles. 4. Meredith Viera hosted a syndicated edition followed by three others. It does not have it's own article. 5. Your WP:SUSTAINED argument does not point to any changes in the eight weeks since the prior AFD's closure. 6. Ratings of eight celebrity episodes does not meet WP guidelines to recreate an article deleted per consensus. AldezD (talk) 16:04, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Another reply - @AldezD, Who Wants to Be a Super Millionaire was made two years after the original stopped airing, but it wasn't because the original was canceled. It was just a spin-off that happened to take place after a short break from the original show. The article in question is about a revival. The show was canceled, and ABC decided to revive/reboot it. You keep saying 8 weeks, but someone else pointed out that the old AfD is clearly 3 months old, and since then, the show has gained a lot of new viewership and reception, which WP:SUSTAINED applies to. This season is notable for being aired during a pandemic because it changed the way the game was played (empty audience, and new lifeline), and this is the first season which featured only celebrity contestants playing for charity. As @ D r e a m Focus  pointed out earlier, this page has enough valid information to stay as its own page. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 16:35, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Some Dude From North Carolina The original 1999 program was canceled in 2002. It stopped airing. Then Super Millionaire aired as a special limited series "during the week of February 22, 2004, and an additional seven episodes later that year in May." It's not a spin-off that took place "after a short break". It was two years later. Same thing happened in 2009 with the "10th Anniversary Celebration". It's not a new show. It does not have it's own article. Neither should "season 21" of this program. "...Since then, the show has gained a lot of new viewership and reception"—No episodes have aired for two months. How can a show "[gain] a lot of new viewership" if it's not airing? You're making arguments against WP guidelines and a previous AFD that resulted in deletion per consensus. AldezD (talk) 16:44, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yet another reply - @AldezD, once again, I have to tell you that since the last AfD, many things have changed. Considering your reasoning behind Super Millionaire, I have to explain that this revival is different. It is not a special edition, but an actual revival. Many sources sort it as season 1 of a new show, as it was a reboot from the original. Super Millionaire was a special edition spin-off of the show, while the article in question is an entirely new program, as many sources have proven to agree with. For references, see the official website, Rotten Tomatoes, and Metacritic. Some Dude From North Carolina (talk) 17:51, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - Some Dude From North Carolina It’s not the first ever revival, that would be the UK version. At this point it might be worth comparing with the UK version, where I’m from - the original format which was subsequently imported by the US - the UK version has one article for all of its seasons since 1998. This despite having different hosts, formats, prizes, lifelines, rules, a national scandal, celebrity editions, couples editions, axing and recommissioning, and a “revival”. Now I’m not saying that because “other stuff exists” we need to follow this template, but in my opinion this seems a more sensible layout, to divide the franchise by country, rather than by country and season. Re:COVID - completely nonsensical argument, there is no sense in creating a new page for every TV show that’s had to adapt its filming because of COVID, we’d be creating hundreds of new pages unnecessarily. Cardiffbear88 (talk) 20:49, 30 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep - Article seems notable for its own page according to WP:SIGCOV. (45.37.82.84) 17:33, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect or delete, Wikipedia is not a TV almanac. This is not a keep vote. Stifle (talk) 14:03, 4 August 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.