Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Widow * Second Wife: Real Sucking Engulfing a Rare Utensil


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Reasonable arguments were made on both sides; there is certainly no consensus to delete this article, however. Black Kite (t) (c) 17:39, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Widow * Second Wife: Real Sucking Engulfing a Rare Utensil

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

The claim to notability for this film is that it "won" eight place in the japanese porn awards show "Pink Grand Prix." That's called coming in eighth, not "winning." There does not appear to be any substantial coverage inependent of the subject (since the pink grand prix is an appendix of the porn-marketting machine in japan). The article is largely a vehicle to have pretty girls titties displayed. Fails GNG, FILM, etc Bali ultimate (talk) 14:00, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - Porn is swell. Topless chicks are swell. Wikipedia articles about obscure porn movies which purportedly have won dubious awards are not swell. Not worthy of inclusion. If this sounds like Yogi's deja vu all over again, that's because it is. Somebody is spamming articles on cheesy Japanese porn movies. Advertising. Carrite (talk) 14:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been added to the WikiProject Pornography list of deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:47, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:47, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:48, 31 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete: Dubious notability claims. English title appears to have been made up by the author to boot. --DAJF (talk) 16:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm concerned that this article cites mainly the web site P*G Website -- it is not obvious to me that this is a reliable source adequate to verify content or establish notability. Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 21:25, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete, fails WP:NOTFILM, and has no coverage shown in reliable independent sources. The Pink Grand Prix is a readers' poll conducted by "PG" (perhaps "P*G") magazine, a publication of no established notability. According to this news article, cited as a reliable source in the article on the award itself, "PG" is a "fanzine," or fan magazine. Reader polls, whether for print or online publications, generally aren't seen as establishing notability unless the publication is clearly notable (if then), and when they are, only the first place finisher is generally seen as having its own notability established by the poll. The film's article is sourced only to a comprehensive listing of produced films, which establishes only existence but not notability, and to the fanzine's own website, which lacks the independence required to establish notability. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:05, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep, Let's tone down the invective and allegations a bit and look at the facts instead. The film in question is an example of Japanese softcore pink film. This type of film has played an important part in Japanese film history and has been a factor in Japanese culture and politics. The reference that Hullabaloo Wolfowitz cites above is an article by pink film authority Jasper Sharp and gives a good overview of the role that pink film has played in Japanese culture and its growing popularity internationally. Read the article to get a better understanding of where this particular Wikipedia article and others of its kind come from. Sharp has also written a serious study of pink film Behind the Pink Curtain, 2008, (ISBN 978 1 903254 54 7) and although in the article mentioned above, Sharp does in passing call PG a "fanzine", he is more explicit in his book describing it as a (page 379): "Specialist Japanese magazine on pink films, edited by Yoshiyuki Hayashida, established in July 1994." And about the magazine's PG website, which has been brought into question, he has this to say (page 380): "The website of the best magazine on the subject. An invaluable, comprehensive and up-to-date resource on pink movies edited by Yoshiyuki Hayashida." Thus, we have a reliable and authoritative source vouching for both PG magazine and the PG website. As for the Pink Grand Prix, Miho Toda in a series of articles    for a reliable source, calls them the Pink Film "Academy Awards" (アカデミー賞). As far as the film not being a first prize winner, if the awarding authorities from "the best magazine on the subject" choose to give awards to more than one candidate, we cannot, as Wikipedia editors, arbitrarily impose rules that only certain awards are "good enough". That would involve cultural bias, POV and OR to make such decisions. In summary, this is a film which has won a significant award given by a prominent magazine and is described in a reliable source. I know of no connection between PG magazine and the [sic] "porn-marketting machine in japan"; if there is one, a source would be welcomed. Incidentally, pink film has always been produced and distributed by the major film studios in Japan. As for "English title appears to have been made up by the author", Japnese film titles are often difficult to translate into decent English. If you know of another English title or can give a better translation, please do so. It would be appreciated. Cherryblossom1982 (talk) 19:02, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep We don't delete articles on notable, significant films based on cultural and moral bias. Comments about "titties" and "porn" show the ignorance and bias going into some of the votes here. The Pink film is a hugely significant part of Japanese cinema, and has been for nearly 50 years. It is, basically, all Japanese independent cinema. To equate it with US/western "porn" is culturally biased and ignorant, and nominating this article based on that bias is tantamount to attempting to censor coverage of Japanese independent cinema. Read the Pink film article for details. Many significant figures in Japanese cinema have worked in this genre. Just one example: Yōjirō Takita, the winner of last year's U.S. Academy Award for Best Foreign Language film started in this genre, made a hugely significant contribution to the genre, and this work is a significant portion of his work. The Pink Grand Prix is currently the main award in the genre. Anglo pink film scholar Jasper Sharp, and mainstream Japanese sources have noted this in several writings cited in the article. All films awarded at this ceremony are notable simply due to this one award. To claim they are not is to make a laughing-stock Wikipedia's claims of neutrality and encyclopedic coverage. Also, this film was produced by Yutaka Ikejima, written by Kazuhiro Sano, and distributed by OP Eiga. Read the articles on that director and the studio for some background. Are we to censor this because of the belligerent ignorance of a few Anglo prudes? I strongly suggest that anyone who purports to be interested in creating an encyclopedia which includes Japanese cinema as a subject area, review their !votes. Because I can tell you, your Delete vote is WRONG here. Pink films just like this one, are covered more and more by mainstream English-language texts on Japanese cinema. This is nothing less than an effort to censor an entire genre of Japanese cinema based on the cultural and moral bias of a few Wikipedia editors. Dekkappai (talk) 03:31, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep per comprehensive rationales of Cherryblossom1982 and Dekkappai.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:34, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * A few notes on the general significance of pink film This mass-deletion of pink film articles might benefit from a few points on the genre. The biased cultural point of view driving these nominations: "Porn! Delete!" is completely inaccurate. The nearest equivalent in the US would be the grindhouse/drive-in cinema of the '60s and '70s. The difference is that the Japanese ones are often made by notable, accomplished filmmakers and performers. These films are in no way comparable to what Westerners currently think of as porn. Some of these films-- Jasper Sharp says 10%-- which is approximately the number represented at the Pink Grand Prix-- are well-made, significant, artistic films which employ eroticism as only one element. The films can be in any genre-- horror, comedy, thriller, even science fiction. The only requisites to belonging to the genre are budgetary, shooting schedule, and the existence of a minimal amount of nudity. A few notes:
 * "SM Queen" Naomi Tani was nominated for a Japanese Academy Award for work in pink and Roman Porno.
 * Actress Junko Miyashita was also nominated for Best Actress at the (mainstream) Japanese Academy Award for a performance in a Roman Porno. She won at other mainstream film awards.
 * Noted (mainstream) Japanese film critic Tadao Sato calls pink film director Kōji Wakamatsu, one of "Japan's leading directors of the 1960s."
 * (US) Academy Award-winner, Yōjirō Takita, has such pink films in his filmography as: High Noon Ripper (1984), Molester's Train: Please Continue (1982), Molester's Train: Hunting In A Full Crowd (1982), Molester's Train: Rumiko's Tush (1983), Molester's Train: Keiko's Tush (1983), Molester's Train: Momoe's Tush (1983), Molester's Train: Underwear Inspection (1984), Molester's Train: Blast Off (1984), Molester's Train: Best Kept Secret Live Act (1984), Molester's Train: Seiko's Tush (1985), Molester's Train: One Shot Per Train (1985), Molester's Train: 1 Centimeter From The Wall (1985), Molester And The Female Teacher (1984), Molester's School Infirmary (1984), Molester's Tour Bus (1985), Molester's Delivery Service (1986), Pink Physical Examination (1985), Serial Rape'' (1983), etc., etc., etc. Is Wikipedia going to join the ranks of the vilest of human endeavors by censoring the work of this master of cinema because his early works unashamedly display "titties" and "porn"?
 * From November 1971 until 1988, Nikkatsu studio, Japan's oldest major film studio, made almost nothing but "Roman porno" films. (Director Masaru Konuma says that there was essentially no difference between Roman Porno and pink films except for the studio's higher budget.)
 * Kinema Jumpo, one of the major Japanese cinema journals, lists several Roman porno/pink films on its list of the 200 best Japanese films of the 20th century. Included on the list are such Roman pornos as : Crazy Fruit (狂った果実 - 1981), Love Hotel (ラブホテル - 1985), Rape! 13th Hour (レイプ25時　暴姦 - 1977), Angel Guts: Red Porno (天使のはらわた　赤い淫画 - 1981)... For an Anglo-centric Wikipedia editor to dismiss films of the genre as "titties" and "porn" is a reflection on the educational background and the limited world-view of that editor, not of these films' place in world cinema. Wikipedia should realistically cover world cinema, not reflect the bias of individual editors. Dekkappai (talk) 06:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep Per reasoned comments above, and notability in Japan is notable enough for en.Wikipedia. Western (or personal) POV should never be used to negatively color discussion of Eastern film, Eastern art, Eastern culture, as cultural standards greatly vary.  Perhaps someone from WP:CSB might wish to join in here.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 07:56, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The "biased cultural viewpoint" driving these nominations is not that it's porn, but that it's non notable porn, not covered in any depth anywhere. The articles only exist to have a naked breasts displayed -- there's simply nothing else there.Bali ultimate (talk) 08:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * BULLSHIT! You couldn't have made your bias plainer in your nomination if you tried. These films are NOTABLE because they have been AWARDED by the major award ceremony covering their field. If Wikipedia's "notability" criteria now excludes awards of notability by real authorities in the subject, then Wikipedia has lost its way. Dekkappai (talk) 08:33, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 1. Didn't "win" an award (eigth place). 2. The award itself is a fan poll. 3. Apparently, the Japanese wikipedia doesn't write about must of these non-notable films. Presumbably, just the ones that have received substantial coverage, allowing for the composition of an actual encyclopedia article. Basicallly all these many dozens of articles (hundreds?) you've put up have no depth (they can't -- again, there are no sources except for the "Pink Grand Prix" fanpoll).Bali ultimate (talk) 08:39, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:UNKNOWNHERE is still no valid reason to delete. Othet cultures have differing views on what is notable to their culture and why.  We really should avoid judging them by standards other than their own.   Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 09:02, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * No on is arguing that "it isn't known here, so delete" so i'm not sure why you're talking about that. The argument is that there are no sources -- in any language. The inclusion standards are the same, whether a film is japanese or czech -- either there is substantial coverage (either in japan or somewhere else) or there is not.Bali ultimate (talk) 09:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You say the argument is "no sources"? In any language?? Empty argument, as the article indeed has sources... even if non-English... and applicable inclusion standards have been met for a suitable stub, no matter the film topic or from what country the film came.  It's always wise to remember that the GNG is not the final arbiter or notability, else there would be reason for any subsidiary or clarifying notability guides to exist.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 22:19, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 1. Named 8th best release in a genre that typically sees over 100 annually. 2. The award is named by authorities and reliable Japanese sources as the "Academy Awards" of pink. Your personal opinion of it is irrelevant. 3. The Japanese Wiki has articles on comparable films, even without a pink film specialist editor, and has 2,800 on Adult Video performers. This film is listed in filmographies, and is likely to eventually get an article. Sourcing exists on these films, in Japanese, but the difficulty of locating Japanese sourcing is well known to anyone who has worked in the field. Basically, the articles I've put up are stubs on notable films, as proven by their recognition at a notable award. These articles are continuously added to as more sourcing is found. This is, and should continue to be, standard practice at Wikipedia. Dekkappai (talk) 09:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Tsk tsk, misapplication of term "bullshit". "Horseshit", please. -- Hoary (talk) 14:26, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete Pink film is notable, many specific pink films are notable, I accept the award as apparently notable, and I appreciate that there are articles on them. I'd like to see more thorough coverage of pornography on Wikipedia.  This specific film is not WP-notable, however.  The film is lacking the sort of significant coverage from Reliable sources and consequent verifiability one would want for an encyclopedia article.  Instead of prose following the topics in Manual of Style (film) there are bare statements of fact as to having gotten the award, the cast, crew, and a brief plot outline, essentially WP:PLOTONLY apart from a short lede.  If that's all that can be written, then that's a problem.  Merely winning an award is not a guarantee a film is notable by WP's standards Notability (films), only a general indicator it might be if there are RS for things other than the mere fact of winning the award.  It's the existence of RS treating the film as the subject at length that is the measure of WP-notability.  This film could be better treated in a list of films that won the award, if that. Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 18:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply Winning a notable award is proof of notability both in the real world and at Wikipedia. Notable subjects in foreign languages/cultures/different time periods are more difficult to source. That is the purpose of subject-specific "notability" definitions, not to create further "notability" hurdles. The assertion of notability, and the proof of its notability are in the article. "bare statements of fact" is encyclopedic style. I could embellish, and then I'd be accused of "fan" writing. Working in this genre for several years, I know that sourcing is out there on films with this much notability, and will be added to this article. This is a completely appropriate stub on a notable film. Deleting an article of this much notability while retaining hundreds of English-language films of much less notability is practically the definition of systemic bias. It is bad for Wikipedia. Dekkappai (talk) 19:22, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Perhaps the most important false statement in the nomination, and in some Delete votes, is that this film does not pass WP:NOTFILM. It most certainly does pass per Notability_(films), "The film has received a major award for excellence in some aspect of filmmaking." This is noted, "This criterion is secondary. Most films that satisfy this criterion already satisfy the first criterion." (First criterion: "The film is widely distributed and has received full length reviews by two or more nationally known critics.") This note, in my experience, is correct, as I have stated above. As indicated by this notable award, these films are covered by reviews and secondary sources, but because of the barriers of language, Japanese sourcing availability, and distance, these sources are found more slowly than are their English equivalents. Also, these films are distributed nationally through OP Eiga, 50 years history as perhaps the major pink film studio. This latter fact further passes ], "The film was successfully distributed domestically in a country that is not a major film producing country, and was produced by that country's equivalent of a "major film studio." Articles on such a film should assert that the film in question was notable for something more than merely having been produced, and if any document can be found to support this, in any language, it should be cited." OP is a major studio, and the award is proof beyond its "merely having been produced". There is no valid reason to delete this article. Dekkappai (talk) 20:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Further evidence of passing WP:NOTFILM Further, the film easily passes point 2 of Notability_(films) mulitple times: ("The film features significant involvement (ie. one of the most important roles in the making of the film) by a notable person and is a major part of his/her career.") Kazuhiro Sano, the film's writer and an actor in the film, and Yutaka Ikejima, the film's producer, are two of the most notable filmmakers in the history of pink film. As a Pink Grand Prix winner, this film is significant in their careers, yet details about the film would be inappropriate in their biographies. Hence, deletion of this article would be absolutely wrong for Wikipedia. // and ANOTHER part of Notability_(films) (2) states: "The film is historically notable, as evidenced by one or more of the following:... "The film was given a commercial re-release, or screened in a festival, at least five years after initial release." The film was re-released theatrically three years after its initial release., so it is just short of passing that one too... How many times does the article have to pass WP:NOTFILM before this AfD nomination and the other three inappropriate, POINT-nominations are thrown out? It's obvious Notability is not the issue here. Dekkappai (talk) 22:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The context from WP:NOTFILM: "The following are attributes that generally indicate, when supported with reliable sources, that the required sources are likely to exist: [...] The film has received a major award for excellence in some aspect of filmmaking." It is not "false" to say this film fails NOTFILM; it fails because it is one of those exceptions where a film won an award but RS do not exist.  As I stated above, an award is an attribute that generally indicates that RS may exist for a film, an award is not a proof in and of itself of Notability.  There must be RS for things other than the fact the film exists and won an award.  NOTFILM doesn't mean one can speculate such sources exist or speculate that they will be created in the future if a film won an award, it's only thought to be likely that they may exist, and one must actually have the sources in hand ideally at the time of article creation, but if not then, now.  They should not be a challenge to find if it is notable.  Find them and I'd be quite happy to change my recommendation. Notability is an issue here and it is uncivil to accuse otherwise, just as the AfD was started on an uncivil note, something I criticized the nom for on his talk page. Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 23:03, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You are incorrectly interpreting WP:NOTFILM. Your claim that all films must ALSO pass GNG makes WP:NOTFILM entirely useless. WP:NOTFILM should just be a redirect to GNG according to your interpretation. Actually, the award, and the other ways that the film pass NOTFILM are proof that the film is notable. Reliable secondary sources with significant coverage of the film do exist but because of cultural, linguistic, and other matters we have not yet located those sources. The sources we DO have could not possibly be MORE reliable-- the leading journal covering the genre, and production information from the Ministry of Education. Subject-specific guidelines such as WP:NOTFILM help to prevent biased coverage by users who incorrectly assume that sourcing for all subjects is equally available-- not to create a redundant check. This is a notable film. More sources exist. A well-sourced stub with proof of the film's notability is sufficient until those further sources are found. Hundreds of articles on US films exist here with NO assertion of "notability" comparable to the four Japanese ones nominated, and LESS reliable sourcing than these. As far as "civility", I believe I have been remarkably restrained considering that these nominations were made in the most belligerent and biased manner, and that the very next !vote accused me of spamming, and later, recommended my banning from Wikipedia-- after I have, in stark contrast to the nominator and his henchman, started hundreds of articles-- no, not all in "titties" and "porn". Dekkappai (talk) 05:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * In fact, since pissing on my article contributions at the ANI board to distract from constant edit-warring on the part of a fellow Deletionist is what led to these attacks on these articles in the first place, let's look at them: 451 + 135 + 49, for a total of 635 I have started in Silent film, Korean and Japanese cinema-- mainstream and erotic, and other areas. Contrast this to to a whopping 7 from the nominator, and a stupendous ONE (a page move to a disambiguation page) from the valued contributor who is allowed to edit-war whenever he wants. My knowledge of what constitutes a "notable" film has been created through experience in actual hard work at this project, not through contributing NOTHING, and telling others what to do. Dekkappai (talk) 06:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:GNG and WP:NOTFILM. Coming eighth place is not an award win, and the Pink Grand Prix is not a "major award". Epbr123 (talk) 08:18, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Your vote rationale is completely dishonest. Film passes WP:NOTFILM multiple times as noted above. All ten positions, and every other award at the Pink Grand Prix are significant, and are cited as such by Japanese sources. As noted in the article, mainstream Japanese sources refer to the Pink Grand Prix as the "Academy Awards of the Pink Film",  and English Pink film scholar Jasper Sharp calls it the high point of the year for the pink film community. Honestly, Epbr123, you and I have had our differences, but I still expected better of you. Dekkappai (talk) 13:18, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Doesn't Sharp (p.312 of his book) also call it a "promotional event"? Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 19:37, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes that's right -- also makes it clear the award is voted on by the audience. 10 Winners out of 16 films screened. "Meike was the leading figure behind the high profile pinku eiga promotional event the P-1 Grand Prix. Using the K-1 Grand Prix wrestling tournament as its model the format was that 16 films were screened in double-bills over a one week period and the audience would vote for their favorite to go on to the next round." I believe that's Mitsuru Meike who's a producer and director of pink films.Bali ultimate (talk) 19:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't have my copy of the book with me, but I suppose the award ceremony "promotes" its subject as much as any other award ceremony does. If you're suggesting that it is run by a commercial studio, I believe this is incorrect. The award's notability is already well-established. And, by the way, if it matters, the P-1 Grand Prix is an entirely different event... But if we're out to disqualify all coverage of Japanese independent cinema, I don't suppose it matters... Dekkappai (talk) 20:03, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It's odd. Jasper Sharp's book, which appears to be one of the most comprehensive on the business, doesn't seem to mention the the "Pink Grand Prix" at all, at least in the online searchable copy. Just the "P-1 Grand Prix." Assumed they were the same. You tell me they're not. If that's the case, he somehow neglected to mention the "academy awards" of the business in a 415 book on the subject. Hmmm...Bali ultimate (talk) 20:09, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Sharp uses the Japanese title, "Pink Taisho". Dekkappai (talk) 20:19, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep What right do we have to declare a place 8 award in a notable Japanese award ceremony as unimportant? There are over 20 Oscar category awards and even getting nominated for just one estabilishes a certain notabililty. So how would we as non experts tell that a place 8 award in Japan lacks relevance? At least I have not seen any prove for this here. I am also impressed of the deep knowledge that Dekkappai and Cherryblossom1982 have in that field, so there is nothing to add to their comphrehensive explanations which even for an (open) western eye should make the inclusion of this article plausible. Both main editors are hardworking experts and would be loss for Wikipedia when stopping their contributions. Furthermore the nominator lacks obviously and without any doubt WP:NPOV in this area which even goes to name-calling of involved editors. Testales (talk) 12:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Where are the sources independent of the subject that might establish notability for this (and all the other single sourced porn films) particular film?Bali ultimate (talk) 13:01, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * We have admissions even from the Delete votes here that Pink film is a notable genre. How is it possible that films awarded by the "Academy Awards of Pink" are not notable? In spite of the repetition to the contrary, every fact in the article is reliably sourced, and the film is notable because of the award, the notable personnel and studio which made it, and because it passes WP:NOTFILM multiple times. Dekkappai (talk) 13:18, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Eighth place. Nowhere near the exposure of the actual adademy awards. Where are the sources? Notfilm is clear == there should be sources. Where are they? Bali ultimate (talk) 13:24, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You lie. See above. Dekkappai (talk) 13:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Stop with the personal attacks. The next one i'll seek action on. Best just to make your arguments without them. And see what above? The reflist? That has nothing to do with this particular film.Bali ultimate (talk) 13:34, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * More to the point, for those of us trying to understand and assess these arguments, what is it that B.U. said that D. thinks is not true, and which point "above" does D. think refutes it? Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 17:12, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Because beeing biased, Bali wants to mass remove a lot of Japanese articles and does so by not accepting the given sources, mainly "P*G" and also declaring the listed awards(s) as not notable. The main editors have already explained why the sources are reliable and the awards are notable. No point to repeat the same arguements over and over again in 5 AfDs about the same topic. Testales (talk) 17:59, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem as i see it is that there's only one source, the PG fanzine, and even that source is apparently little more than a tiny bit of plot summary and the mention that it came in 8th place. My bias is against the absence of sources that would allow for the construction of a proper article.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You were pretty clear at ANI, see the diff-links above. At least have the guts to agree to be biased. Testales (talk) 20:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * What? Again, we have the fanzine. Oh, and we also have the japanese government's database of all films produced in the country -- and the imdb of japan (another database of all films produced in the country). What we don't have is in depth discussion, review, contextualization, etc... of this film. There appears to be no coverage. Do you have sources to offer otherwise on this film?Bali ultimate (talk) 20:55, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * P*G has been published by Hayashida Yoshiyuki-- published authority on the pink film, who has been interviewed on the subject-- for over 20 years, is cited as the leading journal on the pink film. I'd look up cites if they mattered. JMDB is not the equivalent of IMDB, This presumption that there are no reliable sources on Japanese independent cinema, no reliable awards on Japanese independent cinema, no nothing on Japanese independent cinema which deserves mention on English Wiki just confirms the bias in the original nomination. Dekkappai (talk) 21:19, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You write. "The JMDB is not the equivalent of IMDB." Yet the wikipedia article you link to says it is similar to the Internet Movie Database, but lists only those films originally released in Japan. The columbia.edu link you provide also describes something identical to the IMDB, except with the caveat that it's limited to japan. As for the "presumption" that there are no reliable sources on Japanese indepenent cinema" etc... i never wrote that and certainly don't presume any of that. My contention is that this single award from a fanzine is insufficient to hang this (and what looks to be a least 100 other identical stubs) on. No one seems to find sources beyond these -- and none so far that treat these individual films in any depth. That's a bias in favor of some fairly basic standards.Bali ultimate (talk) 21:27, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Dekkappai (talk) 20:19, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Hi Kenny. One of the problems with mass-nominations is that one forgets what is said where. I suppose I'll have to summarize the points made in all four discussions before these are closed. I had to step away from the computer just before I alluded to the "above" which may have been made at another discussion. To answer:
 * "Notfilm is clear == there should be sources"
 * There are sources in the article, and they are of the utmost reliability:
 * What BU probably means is "significant" coverage, per GNG. First, the P.G. article is significant coverage by a reliable source. Second, like all guidelines, WP:NOTFILM cites WP:GNG, and then states: "The following are attributes that generally indicate, when supported with reliable sources, that the required sources are likely to exist:"
 * ""The film has received a major award for excellence in some aspect of filmmaking."
 * This particular film won the award for Eighth Best Film at the Pink Grand Prix ceremony.
 * The Pink film is a highly notable genre of Japanese film (see above), and the Pink Grand Prix is the major award in the genre.
 * "Other evidence of notability... Some films that don't pass the above tests may still be notable, and should be evaluated on their own merits. The film features significant involvement (ie. one of the most important roles in the making of the film) by a notable person and is a major part of his/her career."
 * Notable people involved in making the film include Yutaka Ikejima (one of the most important actor-directors in the history of pink film), and Kyōko Godai (article not started yet, but one of the most important screenwriters in pink)
 * "The film was successfully distributed domestically in a country that is not a major film producing country, and was produced by that country's equivalent of a "major film studio." Articles on such a film should assert that the film in question was notable for something more than merely having been produced, and if any document can be found to support this, in any language, it should be cited."
 * The film was distributed nationally by OP Eiga, a major pink studio for 50 years. (See Japanese Ministry of Education link above).
 * Notable people involved in making the film include Yutaka Ikejima (one of the most important actor-directors in the history of pink film), and Kyōko Godai (article not started yet, but one of the most important screenwriters in pink)
 * "The film was successfully distributed domestically in a country that is not a major film producing country, and was produced by that country's equivalent of a "major film studio." Articles on such a film should assert that the film in question was notable for something more than merely having been produced, and if any document can be found to support this, in any language, it should be cited."
 * The film was distributed nationally by OP Eiga, a major pink studio for 50 years. (See Japanese Ministry of Education link above).

(←e.c.)http://www2u.biglobe.ne.jp/~p-g/data/2004/040304/goke.htm doesn't seem "substantial" to me: it looks like a mere listing with just a plot "teaser", not even a full summary, and certainly no critical review. Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 21:28, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The film has been awarded at the major ceremony covering this genre. Every fact in the article is covered by reliable sourcing, including from the Japanese government. The film is significant in the filmographies of at least two notable filmmakers. The film was distributed nationally by a major studio. It passes WP:NOTFILM on multiple counts. Dekkappai (talk) 21:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Hayashida Yoshiyuki, editor of P*G, host of the Pink Grand Prix, interviewed as an authority on pink film: 2002.11.26 and 2005. Dekkappai (talk) 04:21, 4 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The film was successfully distributed domestically in a country that is not a major film producing country surely doesn't apply to Japan? Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 18:53, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know what is meant by "major film producing country", and I'm not prepared to ask the project, as the film passes Notability under the criteria several times, but parsing sentences seems to get nowhere. If "major" is determined by number of films produced, I would think Japan is a major film producing country. If "major" indicates international distribution, I am not sure. Minor point anyway. Dekkappai (talk) 19:03, 4 August 2010 (UTC)