Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wilfred Schoenfeld


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The one "keep" opinion is notably weak, consisting only of "but the character is in IMDB and appeared in...". The one "merge" opinion makes no argument and suggests no target, and the one "wrong forum" opinion makes no sense, given that this is indeed a deletion request, not a content dispute. On the other hand, the "delete" side's assertion that there are insufficient sources for these characters have not been rebutted by citing relevant sources.  Sandstein  20:07, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Wilfred Schoenfeld

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Character from one episode, no evidence of any notability Fram (talk) 08:40, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Also nominated for deletion are the following, all created by the same editor about one, two or three-episode characters from the same series, all lacking any further notability.
 * Albert Schoenfeld
 * Lord Charles Gilmour (Upstairs, Downstairs character)
 * first reply: --ColeB34 (talk) 05:57, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * second reply Lord Charles Gilmour is in IMDB, see http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0076140/ --ColeB34 (talk) 05:59, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Capt. Charles Hammond (Upstairs, Downstairs character)
 * first reply: --ColeB34 (talk) 05:57, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * second reply: Captain Charles Hammond is in IMDB, see http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0265417/ --ColeB34 (talk) 06:03, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Maria Schoenfeld
 * Mr. Arthur Forrest (Upstairs, Downstairs character)
 * first reply: --ColeB34 (talk) 05:57, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * second reply: Mr. Arthur Forrest is in IMDB, see http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0121868/ --ColeB34 (talk) 06:38, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Julius Karekin
 * first reply: Julius Karekin appears in An Object of Value, A Special Mischief, The Fruits of Love, The Wages of Sin (Upstairs, Downstairs), A Family Gathering Thank you --ColeB34 (talk) 05:37, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * second reply: Julius Karekin is in IMDB, see http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0076138/?ref_=fn_al_ch_1 --ColeB34 (talk) 05:37, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * third reply: Julius Karekin is in IMDB, see http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0076138/quotes --ColeB34 (talk) 05:39, 7 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Lawrence Kirbridge
 * first reply: Lawrence Kirbridge isn't an "one, two or three-episode character". Lawrence Kirbridge appears in The Key of the Door, For Love of Love, The New Man (Upstairs, Downstairs), A Pair of Exiles, Married Love (Upstairs, Downstairs), Whom God Hath Joined..., Out of the Everywhere (Upstairs, Downstairs). Thank you --ColeB34 (talk) 05:07, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * second reply: Lawrence Kirbridge is in IMDB, see http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0067782/ --ColeB34 (talk) 05:33, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * third reply: Lawrence Kirbridge is in IMDB, see  http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0067782/quotes --ColeB34 (talk) 05:43, 7 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Bill (Upstairs, Downstairs character)
 * Mrs. Peel (Upstairs, Downstairs character)
 * William (Upstairs, Downstairs character)
 * Baron Klaus von Rimmer
 * first reply: Baron Klaus von Rimmer is in IMDB, see http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0273720/?ref_=fn_al_ch_1 --ColeB34 (talk) 05:30, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * second reply: Baron Klaus von Rimmer is a very important character, see https://www.updown.org.uk/photos/pixld1.htm --ColeB34 (talk) 05:50, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * third reply: Baron Klaus von Rimmer is a very important character, see http://www.updown.org.uk/epguide/s1.htm#sum --ColeB34 (talk) 05:52, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Captain Axel Ryttsen
 * Reply: Axel Ryttsen is a a dashing Swedish military officer, the most important fictional character in The Swedish Tiger. The Swedish military officer Axel Ryttsen is "The Swedish Tiger". --ColeB34 (talk) 05:18, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Second reply: http://www.updown.org.uk/epguide/s1.htm#mc --ColeB34 (talk) 17:24, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Torkel Kraft
 * Reply: Torkel Kraft is the valet of Axel Ryttsen. Torkel Kraft removes valuable household objects from the Bellamy house in order to pay off Ryttsen's gambling debts. A very important fictional character in The Swedish Tiger --ColeB34 (talk) 05:21, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Sir Edwin Partridge
 * Mary Stokes (Upstairs, Downstairs character)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 12:31, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment: We have List of Upstairs, Downstairs (1971 TV series) characters; could they all be merged there? Or are they too minor to be included? Josh Milburn (talk) 14:34, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * In List of Upstairs, Downstairs (1971 TV series) characters images are not allowed. In articles about characters images are allowed. --ColeB34 (talk) 05:27, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment being listed in IMDb is not a claim to notability, IMDb is a database (and a wiki, not a reliable source) which goes for completeness, not significant coverage of notable examples only. Many of your statements above about the number of episodes are contradicted by the very IMDb sources you add, by the way, e.g. Julius Karekin is listed in only three episodes at IMDB. Fram (talk) 09:36, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment Lawrence Kirbridge isn't an "one, two or three-episode character". Lawrence Kirbridge appears in The Key of the Door, For Love of Love, The New Man (Upstairs, Downstairs), A Pair of Exiles, Married Love (Upstairs, Downstairs), Whom God Hath Joined..., Out of the Everywhere (Upstairs, Downstairs).  see also http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0067782/ and  http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0067782/quotes Thank you --ColeB34 (talk) 11:36, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * So, that's one character who appeared in 6 episodes (often as a very minor role, it seems), but still without notability. Fram (talk) 12:17, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 18:30, 7 November 2016 (UTC) 1.) Richard Marson, "Inside UpDown - The Story of Upstairs, Downstairs", Kaleidoscope Publishing, 2005 2.) http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0067782/ 3.) http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0067782/quotes 4.) http://www.updown.org.uk/epguide/s1.htm#mc Updown.org.uk 5.) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0738024/?ref_=tt_ep_nx --ColeB34 (talk) 09:46, 14 November 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment: I think the "nominate a load at once" approach is problematic for the reasons I'm seeing above. If there's a list article to merge them to, you could simply be bold and go ahead with the merge. If not, I think it's probably better to nominate one at a time. It's slower, but it ensures that each article can be assessed on its own merits. Josh Milburn (talk) 15:57, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Even the one character with 5 or 6 appearances has no notability. No sources indicating notability for any of these has been shown or found. Having the same discussion 10 times isn't useful. Fram (talk) 09:00, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * This is wrong. Please see:
 * Yes, these are the sources you use for every article in this AFD (and the other AFDs). IMDb is a wiki and basically a database, not a source that gives any notability. Updown org is a fan site, again not giving any notability. Which leaves you with one book where it is not clear how much attention is given to any character. But what can you say about a one-episode character, apart from his role in the episode and who played him or her? Nothing much, which is why we don't have articles on characters who have made no impact whatsoever outside their series and little within it. Fram (talk) 10:17, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 05:21, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Minor character, fails GNG. Bondegezou (talk) 08:10, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete what is going on here, there's no sign of notability, and not much of the concept of reliable sources. Wikis that anybody can edit are not reliable. An open and shut case. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:21, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Reply: Lawrence Kirbridge isn't an "one, two or three-episode character". Lawrence Kirbridge appears in The Key of the Door, For Love of Love, The New Man (Upstairs, Downstairs), A Pair of Exiles, Married Love (Upstairs, Downstairs), Whom God Hath Joined..., Out of the Everywhere (Upstairs, Downstairs). Thank you --ColeB34 (talk) 17:22, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * second reply: Lawrence Kirbridge is in IMDB, see http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0067782/
 * third reply: Lawrence Kirbridge is in IMDB, see  http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0067782/quotes
 * Please see:
 * 1.) Richard Marson, "Inside UpDown - The Story of Upstairs, Downstairs", Kaleidoscope Publishing, 2005
 * 2.) http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0067782/
 * 3.) http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0067782/quotes
 * 4.) http://www.updown.org.uk/epguide/s1.htm#mc Updown.org.uk
 * 5.) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0738024/?ref_=tt_ep_nx

--ColeB34 (talk) 17:22, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Wrong forum Notability is not a deletion argument here, for the one article being considered in this discussion.  The others should be procedurally closed.  Unscintillating (talk) 03:59, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Wrong twice. Notability is a deletion argument, no idea why you would think it isn't. And no reason to procedurally close the others as they all suffer from the same problem, and all have the same sources. This is exactly what mass nominations are for. Fram (talk) 07:41, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Did you read what I said? But rather than answer that, let me repeat what I said, "Notability is not a deleteion argument here."  I've added italics to the word "here", which should explain the confusion.  "Wrong forum" is the right close for nominations that show insufficient familiarity with WP:N and WP:Deletion policy including WP:ATD and WP:Editing policy and WP:Redirect, and at best would trap the closing administrator or NAC into adjudicating a content dispute with a non-binding AfD decision.  Better to follow policy and get this to content decision makers, as well as clarify that there is no theoretical case here for deletion.  Unscintillating (talk) 15:45, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Unscintillating, I looked for notability for these, and couldn't find any. Please AGF that when people nominate articles for deletion, they have done their job. This is not a content dispute, this is a notability discussion (coupled with an editor hellbent on keeping these articles only because he can then add screenshots to them). I really don't get what you are trying to claim here or trying to achieve here. Do you actually claim that these characters are notable (evidence please), or that I have not looked for notability before nominating them? In any case, to go back to what you wrote, notability is the deletion argment here. I really have no idea why you would claim otherwise, or what other reason you think I have to start these AfDs. Fram (talk) 08:13, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Regarding the statement, "notability is the deletion argument here", what I wrote was, "Notability is not a deletion argument here." I've added emphasis to the word "a".  Unscintillating (talk) 20:39, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't see a response to relevant content, specifically, I've directly cited 3 policies, a specific policy subsection, and an editing guideline for your attention. C.f. the WP:INSIGNIFICANCE essay cited in response to another !vote, as it extracts relevant quotes, such as "WP:Deletion policy states, "If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page."  Since the premise of this thread (my !vote) is that notability is not a deletion argument for this AfD, questions about my opinion regarding notability seem misplaced.  The point about these pictures keeps coming up, but the pictures are content, consistent with my !vote of "Wrong forum".  From WP:Deletion policy:


 * {| style="background:#DDFFFF"

Disputes over page content are usually not dealt with by deleting the page, except in severe cases. The content issues should be discussed at the relevant talk page, and other methods of dispute resolution should be used first, such as listing on Requests for comments for further input. Deletion discussions that are really unresolved content disputes may be closed by an uninvolved editor, and referred to the talk page or other appropriate forum.
 * }
 * Again, a close here would at best trap the closing administrator or NAC into adjudicating a content dispute with a non-binding AfD decision. Better to follow policy and get this dispute to content decision makers, as well as clarify that there is no theoretical case here for deletion.  Unscintillating (talk) 20:39, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * As for the others, editors aren't necessarily even bothering to respond, and it is not clear why they are here as the nomination has provided no WP:BEFORE D1 results and there are no Find sources templates. Deletion policy suggests that the alternate to a discussion on the talk page of the article is an RfC.  Unscintillating (talk) 15:45, 24 November 2016 (UTC)


 * you are right user:Unscintillating : Lawrence Kirbridge isn't an "one, two or three-episode character". Lawrence Kirbridge appears in The Key of the Door, For Love of Love, The New Man (Upstairs, Downstairs), A Pair of Exiles, Married Love (Upstairs, Downstairs), Whom God Hath Joined..., Out of the Everywhere (Upstairs, Downstairs).  Thank you,  user:Unscintillating   --ColeB34 (talk) 07:44, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete as I concur there's clear consensus this is not independently notable and quite honestly it's not even significant given it's about 1 unconvincing TV character. SwisterTwister   talk  06:10, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * reply to user:SwisterTwister : Lawrence Kirbridge isn't an "one, two or three-episode character". Lawrence Kirbridge appears in The Key of the Door, For Love of Love, The New Man (Upstairs, Downstairs), A Pair of Exiles, Married Love (Upstairs, Downstairs), Whom God Hath Joined..., Out of the Everywhere (Upstairs, Downstairs). Thank you --ColeB34 (talk) 07:44, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * If the topic were insignificant, there would not be a redirect target. You want to delete in spite of the topic being significant, why?  And what is "1 unconvincing TV character"?  Is that a claim that the character lacks WP:DUE weight in the target article?  Again, such is a content argument.  As per WP:Deletion policy, any uninvolved editor can move a content argument from AfD to the talk page of the article.  Unscintillating (talk) 16:21, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

@ Aoba47 reply: Lawrence Kirbridge isn't an "one, two or three-episode character". Lawrence Kirbridge appears in The Key of the Door, For Love of Love, The New Man (Upstairs, Downstairs), A Pair of Exiles, Married Love (Upstairs, Downstairs), Whom God Hath Joined..., Out of the Everywhere (Upstairs, Downstairs). Thank you --ColeB34 (talk)
 * you are right user:Unscintillating , thank you user:Unscintillating --ColeB34 (talk) 18:58, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge all these to some kind of list article. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 16:27, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete, as per nom. Aoba47 (talk) 16:11, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Rather tha copying-and-pasting the same reason over and over again, I would recommend devoting your attention to finding third-party, reliable sources to prove that these characters have notability outside of the show. I believe that the reason that these articles are nominated for deletion is that there is the lack of evidence that these characters have enough notability outside of the show to warrant an article. My delete vote stands, and I am not convinced by your argument. Aoba47 (talk) 03:18, 27 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.