Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William "Billy" Smith


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   incubate at WP:Article Incubator/William "Billy" Smith. – GorillaWarfare talk • contribs 02:43, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

William "Billy" Smith

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Makes a claim that would easily satisfy WP:NSPORTS, but I'm unable to confirm that he exists at all. Happy to withdraw the nomination if proof of his existance and top level rugby league experience is able to be found. The common name and sharing it with an Australian RL player from the 60s/70s doesn't help. The-Pope (talk) 13:35, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep.. I'm happy to assume good faith. I know people do make up strange stuff but it looks like a proper person, so no reason for me to assume otherwise. Szzuk (talk) 16:13, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I've often posted about the "spirit" of WP:NSPORTS, in that it, in my opinion, sets a level at which we can assume that sufficient refs to meet WP:GNG are likely to exist somewhere. However, it assumes that you have some ref, maybe not significant coverage, maybe not independent or maybe even not a reliable source, that at least backs up the claim of playing at that level. In this case, I can't even find that.  Then we come to the whole WP:V, WP:BLP rules and the WP:URBLP/WP:URBLPR tasks - should they apply to a 105 year old?  Again, the rules say yes, so the onus is to provide sources, not just accept it. The-Pope (talk) 16:49, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I struggle with the guidelines like you do. The thing with afd's is that they do sometimes 'allow' a keep. I said keep mostly because with such a common name and the time past, in my opinion refs are hiding in local newspapers and books that might never get on the net. I will have a look to see if I can find anything, if I were in St Helens I could go to the club and I reckon I'll find he played 200+ times and would pass Nsports quite comfortably. Szzuk (talk) 17:19, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say the ref was good enough but others can confirm or otherwise. With players this old the burden of verifiability seems quite high. There must be hundreds of sports people who are worthy of a page but won't get one through lack of sources. Szzuk (talk) 17:32, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * As there is no deadline, and verifiability is a key policy, waiting until there are decent sources isn't a problem. And lots of sports, Cricket, Australian rules football, NFL, most big soccer clubs and many more, have very extensive coverage of even much older players than this, both online and offline. The-Pope (talk) 13:41, 16 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete, but recreate if verified. Unfortunately, people have written plausible-sounding hoax articles in the past. Verifiability is necessary to stop this, otherwise it's too easy to feed in disinformation if you know. Happy to assume the article creator acted in good faith unless proven otherwise, but that doesn't extend to giving disputed unverified info in Wikipedia the benefit of the doubt. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 08:39, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say the ref was good enough to establish notability? Szzuk (talk) 16:57, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I'd still say the lack of reliability of the source and uncertainty it's the same Smith still isn't enough to solve the verifiability problem. As it appears this is the best the internet has to offer, I think this is a problem that will only be solved with a trip to a local library. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 11:04, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions.
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.
 * Note: This debate has been mentioned at the WikiProject Rugby league discussion page.  The-Pope (talk) 16:53, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete – If there is no source to verify his notability, I don't see why the article should be kept. We as a project are trying to take care of all the unreferenced BLPs, after all. If he can be shown to meet WP:NSPORTS, I'll switch to a keep.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 23:10, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete – Would pass NSPORTS and the rugby league WikiProject's own notability guidelines, but there are no references so should be deleted anyway. Just checked Rugby League Project for William Smith and counldn't find anything, although I'm sure the article was made in good faith and RLP is by no means an exhaustive source. GW  (talk)  23:24, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete. Does not meet one of our core policies, WP:V. Also happy to switch to keep if a ref is found to verify that he played rugby league at the top level. Jenks24 (talk) 10:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete as above. Undecided - might be one to leave for a bit and come back to if nothing more reliable can be found. Looks promising though - good work those concerned. Blue Square Thing (talk) 15:20, 15 May 2011 (UTC) Blue Square Thing (talk) 11:43, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I found him. I googled for Foster (his friend) and Smith. He played and scored for Bradford Northern in the Yorkshire Cup Final in 1942. I will update the article with the ref. It'd be a bit mean spirited to delete him as the article is actually correct...  Szzuk (talk) 16:47, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If the ref actually had his first name or it was an unusual surname, I'd agree with you, but just mentioning a Smith surely isn't sufficient.The-Pope (talk) 13:38, 16 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep as per the reference found, although the page does need some work. Mattlore (talk) 01:34, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Looking at the Saints Heritage Site the only two possibles I could find were and  but neither are very definitive. Mattlore (talk) 21:23, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I had another look for refs but can't find much else. Hmmm. Might ask on the bradford or st helens forums assuming there are some. Szzuk (talk) 07:30, 18 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment. Regardless of keep or delete, can we remove the WP:BLP tag from this article? He would be 105 if he were still alive, making it unlikely, but not impossible, that he continues to shuffle along this mortal coil. Pburka (talk) 23:43, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I can answer my own question. According to Category:Living People we don't presume people are dead until 123 years. Presumably this is based on the longest known postdiluvian human lifespan. Pburka (talk) 23:49, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: If this does end up leaning towards delete can we instead make use of the Article Incubator? Mattlore (talk) 00:04, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Incubate would be a reasonable thing to do. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 08:03, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.