Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William Crawford (Scottish knight)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Consensus seems to be that this character, while most likely fictional, passes WP:N and there are sufficient sources to write an article. (non-admin closure) Tim Song (talk) 03:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

William Crawford (Scottish knight)

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Minor fictional character, not notable. PatGallacher (talk) 20:26, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

We are having some difficulty separating fact from fiction in relation to the life of William Wallace on Wikipedia, see Articles for deletion/Battle of Loudoun Hill (1296) for a previous discussion. This person appears to be an unhistorical character, I can find no mention of him in reliable sources about Scottish history. There is no mention of him in A.Fisher's "William Wallace", Peter Traquair's "Freedom's Sword" or Black's "Surnames of Scotland". (Some of them do mention members of the Crawford family, one of who died fighting for Bruce, but there is no mention of this person.) The Clan Crawford website is not a reliable source since it repeats clearly unhistorical material e.g. the mass hanging of Scots nobles at Ayr.

So it seems that at most this person is a fictional character in Blind Harry's poem "The Wallace". I am aware that we can have articles about fictional or unhistorical characters e.g. Pope Joan, but there are not the independent third-party sources to establish notability. It is not clear that this person figures as a major character in Blind Harry, or even that everything in this article appears in Blind Harry. The only book I can find that mentions him, "William Wallace: Braveheart" by James MacKay, which looks like far too uncritical a regurgitation of Blind Harry, just mentions briefly that he accompanied Wallace on a trip to France, there is no mention of him fighting at Stirling Bridge or taking part in an invasion of England.

See the talk page for further criticisms of this article. PatGallacher (talk) 20:57, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Weak keep - it seems to me that it's not appropriate to delete the article. Rather, it should be rewritten in the style "William Crawford is a historical figure mentioned in Blind Harry's poem 'The Wallace'.  Whether or not an actual William Crawford existed is a matter of dispute...".  That would provide an appropriate forum for editors to provide arguments for or against his existence.  If after some period of time no arguments emerge for his existence, the article would then be appropriate to be deleted as non-notable. - DustFormsWords (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 23:10, 19 October 2009 (UTC).
 * Keep Fictional (as is most likely), a significant figure in one of the classic works of Scottish literature.   There are additionally discussion of this character in all the books about the poem--and about the disputed historicity when discussing Wallace.  Rewrite as Dustforms suggests to show the proper nature of the character.  DGG ( talk ) 05:10, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Can you actually point us to these books about the poem you are referring to? PatGallacher (talk) 11:02, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep. My understanding is that Blind Harry's poem is one of the chief sources of the life of William Wallace.  Whether or not this character existed historically, there would appear to be enough about him to support an article, even if he is entirely Blind Harry's invention.  The rest would appear to be cleanup. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 15:03, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, if we do decide to keep this article, unless someone comes up with better sources, it would have to be cut down to a couple of sentences, since that is all that is verifiable. PatGallacher (talk) 17:28, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep – I was able to find some references in scholarly books such as “The Life of Sir William Wallace” published in 1841 and shown here    page 91 which states that Crawford was in charge of 400 Calvary.  Also I was able to dig-up a reference to Crawford sailing with Wallace to France as shown here   on page 112 of a book published in 1825.  I’ll throw them in the article for inline cites and references.  Hope this helps. ShoesssS Talk 19:52, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. There is a place for fact and fiction in Wikipedia as long as it meets WP:N and WP:V. If there is doubt that he truly existed, then let the article state that, however, I think this one squeaks by on the relevant policies and guidelines. Location (talk) 03:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Comment There are a whole series of problems with the 2 sources which have just been added. I find these online books very difficult to read. They both look like uncritical regurgitations of Blind Harry. The first describes Wallace as governor-general, which he was not. The second repeats as fact the fictional Barns of Ayr incident. Sources from the early 19th century are virtually worthless. If Crawford was even a significant fictional character it ought to be possible to find better mention of him than this. PatGallacher (talk) 22:16, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.