Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Williams Kastner


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:11, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Williams Kastner

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Essentially an advertisement, relying upon the utterly unreliable "Best Lawyers of America" designation for notability. The refernces merely confirm that PR,  DGG ( talk ) 07:52, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions.  SwisterTwister   talk  14:32, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Law-related deletion discussions.  SwisterTwister   talk  14:32, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Washington-related deletion discussions.  SwisterTwister   talk  14:32, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Oregon-related deletion discussions.  SwisterTwister   talk  14:32, 25 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - Local law firm it seems with no obvious outstanding signs of better encyclopedia notability and improvement. SwisterTwister   talk  05:43, 26 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Weak delete (see below) I checked HighBeam, Questia and General OneFile and found very large numbers of news and trade journal articles on various topics where a Williams Kastner lawyer was quoted for an expert opinion, and some news stories where they were mentioned in passing as representing a party in a legal issue. That's something, but not enough. I found one (1) article where they were the primary topic and which contains extensive information about the law firm itself, rather than being passing mention:
 * 1411 wordsThe author Elizabeth McNair is not a Puget Sound Business Journal reporter, she is president of McNair Marketing Management, suggesting this is a paid-for or in-kind puff piece. If we could find one more article, with a more independent author, or a full chapter in a book, or perhaps a TV program where Williams Kasntner is the sole subject, I'd switch to keep. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:35, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:CORP. The article does not pass Notability (organizations and companies) because the topic has not been the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources. Also, Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion. -  t u coxn \talk 18:54, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in reliable sources.  The article notes: "But a bold experiment, or at least what counts for one in the world of pin stripes and white shoes, is under way in Seattle. Forty-three times last month, in 60 seconds of saccharine broadcast during commercial breaks on the local news, 'Good Morning, America' and 'This Week With David Brinkley,' the 110-lawyer firm of Williams, Kastner & Gibbs sang of its commitment to excellence. On the screen were actors impersonating lawyers at work and play -- sailing, fishing, water skiing, jogging, reading to their children, all All-American towheads who look like young Al Gore 3d. Also on display were soaring images of the Pacific Northwest. Seattle may be short of prairies and fruited plains, but as the commercial made clear, it has plenty of purple mountains majesty and oceans white with foam. One would be hard-pressed to know from all this that Williams, Kastner is actually a law firm, the seventh largest in the Northwest, let alone that it specializes in such mundane matters as insurance defense work and corporate litigation for the likes of Aetna, Johnson & Johnson and the General Motors Acceptance Corporation. In fact, one wouldn't even know the firm has a telephone or an address. But wherever Williams, Kastner is, it is clearly morning there." The article further notes: "As befits corporate lawyers, Williams, Kastner did not tread onto Madison Avenue lightly. How would clients react on seeing the firm tout itself on 'Meet the Press?' Thus, before anyone had seen the first gauzy images of children feeding pigeons in Westlake Mall or sailing on Lake Union, the firm's managing partner, Jerry Edmonds, sent out a sincere alert to the firm's 325 top clients. He explained to them why the firm had taken its first few baby steps into hucksterdom ('Williams, Kastner & Gibbs is not as well known as we believe it should be'), assured them that the firm had not lost its marbles (the commercials, he wrote, were priced 'affordably') and hinted that lest they thumb their noses at the undertaking, they, too, stood to benefit ('The more successful we can be, the more we can develop our capabilities to serve you'). And, in case they had any reactions, he enclosed a 'feedback form' and a stamped envelope."  The advertisement has quotes from The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal about Williams, Kastner & Gibbs: "'A bold experiment...to deliver an image, announce one's presence, disseminate one's name. Wherever Williams, Kastner & Gibbs is, it is clearly morning there.' —The New York Times 'Stylishly photographed and produced...some lawyers and law firm consultants predict that other corporate law firms...may follow Williams, Kastner & Gibbs' lead.' —The Wall Street Journal" The New York Times article is the first source I listed here. The Wall Street Journal is not available online but is a second source about Williams, Kastner & Gibbs. There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Williams, Kastner & Gibbs to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 01:13, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Pinging, who said, "If we could find one more article, with a more independent author, or a full chapter in a book, or perhaps a TV program where Williams Kasntner is the sole subject, I'd switch to keep." Cunard (talk) 01:13, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep per Cunard. As indicated by the NYT article, Williams Kastner is notable because of their pioneering work in astroturfing fake news media stories like the one I cited, and in getting themselves quoted as legal experts, so the article should focus on that topic. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:14, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   17:58, 2 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.