Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Winifred Freedman (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Spartaz Humbug! 23:14, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Winifred Freedman
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Coverage doesn't rise very far above mere mentions. The prior AfD was overturned as move to draft instead of deletion due to the close emphasizing the article's status as an unsourced BLP as opposed to a consensus in the discussion, but I'm not seeing how this meets WP:GNG. The vast majority of listed roles appear to be exceedingly minor, so the subject doesn't have a particularly strong claim to WP:NACTOR either. signed,Rosguill talk 00:38, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. signed,Rosguill talk 00:38, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. signed,Rosguill talk 00:38, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Illinois-related deletion discussions. signed,Rosguill talk 00:38, 8 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep Keep: Just to add to the nominator's comments about the history of this AfD, following the review it was suggested that the article be worked on and could then be moved to the mainspace, such that a fresh AfD could occur to resolve the unresolved question of notability—which is what I did. The nominator has now called for a fresh AfD, which I think is appropriate, because notability is not clear-cut in this case. In terms of my vote, I basically echo what I said at the last AfD—I think WP:NACTOR is made out, with some main roles in plays and a couple of notable roles in TV programs; but the case for WP:GNG is weaker. However, I think more sources could probably be found. Dflaw4 (talk) 02:11, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Update: Based on the sources that have been identified in this AfD, I believe the subject has a real shot at WP:GNG. While there is no one in-depth article dedicated to the subject, the cumulative effect of the reviews and praise she has received over a significant period of time shows, in my opinion, a sufficient level of notability which would justify an article. Dflaw4 (talk) 03:41, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Weak keep - I usually avoid the actor AFDs--I think it's hard to discern the true notability of character actors with decades of professional experience. I also echo  and John Pack Lambert, and don't think Wikipedia should be a mirror of IMDB, even if I trust Wikipedia much more.  Having said that, this character actor had memorable--and therefore significant (in my opinion)--roles in The Last American Virgin, Naked Gun, and The Fabulous Baker Boys.  She also was a cast member of Joanie Loves Chachi, which for decades was shorthand for notorious TV bomb/worst show ever.  I also agree with Rosguill that there aren't a lot of sources to be found.  I think Wikipedia, if possible, should better define how to treat character actors. Caro7200 (talk) 13:32, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That's true, Caro7200, there isn't often a lot of sourcing for character actors, despite a considerable body of work. Dflaw4 (talk) 03:24, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Here are some other refs: AFI mentions her debut, Joanie Loves Chachi, scholarly mention of her famous Finger/John Houseman scene in The Naked Gun. Again, brief mentions but also pointing to a more notable career than what was initially established. Caro7200 (talk) 16:35, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: Invitation to John Pack Lambert, Bearian, IphisOfCrete and TonyTheTiger, who participated in the first AfD a couple of weeks ago, to take part in this one (if they wish). Dflaw4 (talk) 02:15, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 02:16, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 02:16, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete there is no way this passes GNG. LA Weekly is not generally considered a supewr reliable source, and when almost all sources are from one localized publication we are not really seeing demonstration of notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:04, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete whilst sources have been found by Dflaw4, I’m not convinced these help to establish notability. Two mention the subject only by name as part of theatre reviews. One, a local source, is a one-paragraph name check that mentions one of the subject’s TV credits. Almost all of the existing article content is unreferenced, with no evidence of sources that could verify it, and and in the absence of such sources, it must be deleted. Cardiffbear88 (talk) 14:17, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Cardiffbear88, it completely slipped my mind to ping you, the original nominator, for this AfD, which I should have done. Dflaw4 (talk) 03:36, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete I am also unsure that the LA Times source is the proper Winifred Freedman. It is unlikely that at age 29, she played an 8-year-old. I reassert my AFD1 arguments.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:19, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It's definitely her, the actors are playing kids. Caro7200 (talk) 19:39, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * TonyTheTiger, this source confirms that it is adults who play the parts of children: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/50560780/winifred-freedman-the-desert-sun/. Dflaw4 (talk) 03:49, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep this seems to be a very borderline WP:BASIC case.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:34, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak keep per Dflaw4. I found and added two reviews that speak of her performances in theater work. I found her mentioned in a number of other articles, but as I imagine those would be viewed as passing mentions, I did not add them. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 14:58, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * DiamondRemley39 thanks for finding these. I would still question whether local theatre reviews, presumably not focusing largely on the subject’s contribution, would indicate notability - especially as the majority of the article’s current content is unsourced and based on her minor roles in TV and film work. Cardiffbear88 (talk) 15:48, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The sources, from "local productions" (in Los Angeles, a major theatre hub), are from reliable secondary sources (such as the Los Angeles Times), and contribute to the case of notability, though no, they may not bring her past the threshold of it. That's why I went weak keep. Had there been more reviews found, or some LA theatre awards won, I'd not have qualified with "weak." They do mention her work and not just a little in comparison with the work of others in the productions. Notability is one thing and unsourced minor film and tv credits another. They could and probably should be removed, but that is the stuff of talk pages, not AfD. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 18:13, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Very minor in most cases. I don't think unnamed roles in single episodes of shows or films contribute to notability. Examples: Nurse #4, Girlfriend, Ticket Taker, Bad Singer, Pit Recorder, Operator, Pharmacist, Chief's Secretary, Lunch Lady, Facilities Coordinator. --Kbabej (talk) 16:41, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone here said they did. Not every word in articles must contribute to notability. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 18:13, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. The sources do not amount to sigcov. The Design for Living ref is literally a sentence mention in a regional paper; the others are similar. The San Bernardino County Sun ref is at least a paragraph (instead of a single sentence), but it is for a non-notable event and isn't about her work. I echo who stated on another recent AfD Wikipedia should not be an IMDB mirror. --Kbabej (talk) 16:34, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: More sources: here, here, here, and here (my apologies if any of them overlap with DiamondRemley39's sources). Also, from a ProQuest article regarding her performance in Found a Peanut ("Cracking Open Peanuts: Exploring Jewish Identity and the Theatre of the Holocaust in Donald Margulies's Found a Peanut" by Joshua Robert Horowitz, 2015, at page 20):"Overall it appears that reviews either fall in love with the character and plot line of Margulies’s play, or find it very troublesome. Throughout the history of the play’s productions, two patterns seem to evolve. In the reviews often times Joanie and Little Earl stick out as the characters whose actors tend to shine. The New York Time reviewer Frank Rich favourably mentioned Peter MacNichol as Little Earl in the New York City debut, and, in a review of a Los Angeles production, Sylvie Drake mentioned Winifred Freedman standing out as Joanie." Dflaw4 (talk) 03:41, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I just added those, except for the Proquest article. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 13:04, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, DiamondRemley39! I certainly think there is more to this actress than meets the eye. With further digging, this could be a well-sourced article. Dflaw4 (talk) 13:24, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   14:55, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Just commenting that I looked at the sources provided by Dflaw4 in their most recent top-level comment and I think that we're still short of GNG. Each has at most a sentence or two mentioning the subject acting in a role. I don't see how you could write an article based on these sources without resorting to synthesis. signed,Rosguill talk 20:05, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep - this is a rare case where notability is subjective. Her roles were substantial enough to pass WP:NACTOR, although many source are lost now because they were pre-Internet. Bearian (talk) 19:06, 20 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.