Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Winston Sterzel (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Discussion shows by consensus that WP:GNG and WP:ENT are met.  ~Oshwah~  (talk) (contribs)   15:26, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Winston Sterzel
AfDs for this article: 
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Article does not appear to pass general notability guidelines and seems to be largely self-promotional. Shritwod (talk) 02:53, 25 June 2018 (UTC) NOTE There has been off-Wiki canvassing by the subject on Twitter: ''If anyone of you has knowledge of how Wikipedia works, could you please help me as my wikipedia page has been under serious vandalism and revision and nominated for Deletion again by the trolls, it's very frustrating as they have... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Sterzel …'' Shritwod (talk) 21:40, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  The article notes: "WITH 220,000 subscribers, Winston Sterzel, a Briton who was born and raised in South Africa, is an Internet celebrity on YouTube. His videos about daily life in China, which average 100,000 views, are favored by those who are interested in China. ... Fueled by his experiences as a newcomer in a foreign country, he started making videos that explained how foreigners could do simple tasks such as taking a Metro or a bus, or how to order food and ask for a beer in a restaurant.  ...  All of Sterzel’s videos are real footage of his personal experiences. When he has an idea, he simply hits the street with his camera.  The most important thing for his videos is to have engaging themes, and he always gets new ideas from his viewers’ comments. His videos include trendy and practical content, such as warning people to avoid scams such as black taxis in China."  The article notes: "Winston Sterzel, 33, a British-South African medical training manager who has been in Shenzhen for eight years, has been praised by plenty of Chinese netizens for the astuteness of his online videos which give an introduction to the “real China.” His motorcycle tours have taken him to dozens of cities and small towns, but the portal through which he understands the Middle Kingdom is Shenzhen, a city he fell in love with during a business trip and came to despite having no contacts here. Sterzel has a large following on YouTube, Facebook, and Youku and has been featured in Shenzhen-based media eleven times. He has kindly taken the time to talk to The Nanfang about road trips, cold beer, internet celebrity and Chinese nationalism. ... After moving to Shenzhen eight years ago, he immersed himself in the local Chinese community while learning the language. …  He works for a medical training company, training doctors in international hospital rules, etiquette, medical terminology and other things related to internships in Australia and Germany. Another one of his main activities is taking motorcycle trips around China. Either through business trips or lone adventures he has biked his way to Dalian, Inner Mongolia, Shanghai and many other far flung places. His videos about riding to Guilin gained 10,000 hits per episode, almost 80,000 in total." According to this December 2016 article from Hong Kong Free Press, "The Nanfang – an English-language digital news and commentary website for southern China – is closing after almost seven years, citing commercial challenges."  The article notes: "After 10 years of vlogging about Shenzhen, Winston Sterzel recently stepped into the wilds of making his YouTube videos a full-time job. Often appearing in a suit and drinking a beer, his video repertoire of city guides and interviews on taboo topics have earned more than 15 million views, making him the unofficial face of Shenzhen in the Anglosphere." that's Shenzen is a sister publication of that's Shanghai, that's Beijing, and that's PRD, which are all published by Urbanatomy Media.  The article notes: "WINSTON STERZEL is the face of Shenzhen on YouTube. Searching “Shenzhen” in YouTube brings up his videos, which have been viewed more than 8 million times. Calling himself “the original China vlogger” Sterzel has posted 584 videos to YouTube since 2006. The South African, who was born to British parents, uses a digital camera to film videos with a focus on life in Shenzhen. The videos range from him speaking into the camera while walking down the street to polished guides to parts of Shenzhen. ... Sterzel’s videos include advice on renting an apartment, finding a job and even interviews about intercultural relationships."  The article notes: "WINSTON STERZEL, a British-South African, has always been a warm-hearted person who likes to help others. After living in Shenzhen for about six years, the 31-year-old is finding a new way to give that help — online videos that show newcomers what Sterzel calls the real China. Without any advanced equipment or complicated plots, Sterzel, a medical training manager and self-employed businessman, uses his mobile phone and years of rich experience in China to help foreigners visit or learn about the country. So far, he has made 12 episodes for his popular video series, “China: How It Is.” The series detailing Chinese lifestyles, customs and culture has generated about 900,000 views on YouTube, with more than 1,800 subscribers."  The article notes: "CAMPING in a cold, wet abandoned shack is what Winston Sterzel did on the seventh day of his South China motorcycle tour. Sterzel and four others are filming a documentary about their 16-day trip that they hope will be out around Christmas time. ... The South African is uploading “behind the scenes” footage from the trip to YouTube and Youku, with the YouTube videos already racking up more than 10,000 views. ... Sterzel is effectively Shenzhen’s face on YouTube, with his 584 mostly Shenzhen-centric videos having been viewed about 8 million times since he began posting in 2006. Searching “Shenzhen” on YouTube brings up his picture, linking to videos where he talks about living in Shenzhen, finding jobs and intercultural relationships."</li> <li> The article notes: "THE adventures of a motorcycle riding, Shenzhen-based expatriate are getting noticed in Chinese media. Winston Sterzel’s video was featured yesterday on one of China’s most popular video-sharing websites, sohu.com. The preview for “Conquering Southern China” appeared at the top of Sohu’s documentary page. ... Traveling 5,000 kilometers by motorcycle, Sterzel and some friends documented their trips through southern China."</li> <li> The article notes: "WINSTON STERZEL, a Briton who grew up in South Africa, was convinced that Shenzhen was the place to be after a three-day business trip in 2005, following which he moved here. It turned out to be a wise decision as his company Access Oriental is booming. He is mainly in charge of sourcing, technical proofing and quality control of the company. ... Sterzel has a Chinese girlfriend here, and plans to stay in China for a long time. He hasn't been back to South Africa to visit his family; instead his family came to visit him in Shenzhen. 'It is my place,' he said."</li> <li> The article notes: "Winston Sterzel, and Matthew Tye have done what most of us only dream of doing – traversing 5,000km across southern China on ramshackle, handmade motorcycles, stopping to sample the most unique local dishes, filming every moment of their adventure. The pair of Shenzhen based Youtube vloggers – who go by SerpentZA and Laowhy86, respectively – recently worked with Beijing based editors Ricardo Afonso and Mark Masterton, turning their footage into a series called 'Conquering Southern China,' which is now streaming on Vimeo on demand."</li> <li> The article notes: "纪录片主人公来自不同行业，他们中有酒店创始人、DJ、留学生、南非酒吧老板、高尔夫球场高管、拍摄中国的视频博主、中国功夫迷、国际学校老师、推广皮影戏的艺术家、建筑师、领事夫人等等. 他们的故事既有特殊性又有代表性. 例如，居住在上海的格兰特•霍斯菲尔德（Grant Horsfield）把生态旅游的概念引入浙江莫干山，他建造的“裸心谷”度假村给当地提供了一个绿色旅游的范例，并带动了当地经济；在深圳的温斯顿•斯得泽尔（Winston Sterzel），由于看到西方媒体对中国的报道与事实出入很大，决定利用闲暇时间拍摄真实的中国并介绍给世界；同是居住在深圳的马克•欧克莱尔(Mark O’Connell)，把自己在南非管理高尔夫球场的丰富经验带到中国" This verifies that Winston Sterzel's name translated into Chinese is 温斯顿•斯得泽尔.</li> <li> The article notes: "英裔南非籍男子Winston Sterzel住在深圳已将近十年，他从2007年开始制作关于中国见闻的视频并上传到视频网站，因为住在深圳，其视频的内容大多与深圳有关. Winston录视频的初衷是方便家人和朋友了解他在深圳的生活，没想到逐渐受到网民关注. 最初，对深圳的好奇心驱使Winston四处游走，走得最远的一次，从东门走到了蛇口，20多公里路程，走过大厦楼底，穿过城中村，他一点也不觉得累. 一个偶然的机会，Winston来到下沙村. 跟其他地方相比，这座位于福田区西南部的城中村虽然破旧了些，却设施齐全. Winston看中这里的排屋租金便宜，又能接触到各种不同的人，就住了下来." From Google Translate: "British South African man Winston Sterzel lived in Shenzhen for nearly a decade, he started in 2007 on the Chinese knowledge of the video and uploaded to the video site, because living in Shenzhen, most of its video content and Shenzhen. Winston recorded the original intention of the video is to facilitate family and friends to understand his life in Shenzhen, did not expect to gradually be concerned about the Internet users. Initially, the curiosity of Shenzhen drive Winston to walk around, go farthest once, from the East Gate went to Shekou, more than 20 kilometers away, walked through the building floor, through the city village, he did not feel tired. By chance, Winston came to Xiasha Village. Compared with other places, this is located in the southwest of Futian District, although the dilapidated village, but the facilities are complete. Winston fancy the townhouse rent cheap, but also access to a variety of different people, to live down."</li> <li> The article notes: "“Hey guys,welcome to another video（大家好，欢迎收看新一期视频）!” 几年来，视频制作者“SerpentZA”的粉丝习惯了他在每个视频开头这样问候. 视频背景或许是繁华街头，或许是城中村的啤酒摊子，他自说自拍，用英文对着镜头讲身边的趣事，细碎而平和，像在与一位老友聊自己的近况. 这位英裔南非籍的视频制作者原名Winston Sterzel，居住在中国深圳将近10年. 从2007年开始，每隔一段时间，Winston都会制作出一个关于中国见闻的视频，上传到视频网站YouTube，因为他住在深圳，视频的内容也大多与深圳有关. 到现在，他的YouTube个人频道已经拥有了600多个视频和10万多万订阅者，最受欢迎的“China,how it is（别样）”系列视频已累计拥有约750万次的点击量." From Google Translate: "'Hey guys, welcome to another video (Hello everybody, welcome to watch the new video)!' Over the past few years, the video producer 'SerpentZA' fans accustomed to his greeting at the beginning of each video. Video background may be the bustling streets, perhaps the village of beer stalls, he said that self-timer, with the English side of the lens to talk about the interesting side, crushing and peace, as in an old friend to talk about their current situation. The British-South African video producer was originally named Winston Sterzel, living in Shenzhen, China for nearly 10 years. From 2007 onwards, every time, Winston will produce a video on the Chinese knowledge, upload to the video site YouTube, because he lives in Shenzhen, the video content is mostly related to Shenzhen. Up to now, his YouTube personal channel already has more than 600 videos and more than 100,000 subscribers, and the most popular 'China, how it is' series of videos has accumulated about 7.5 million hits The"</li> <li> The article notes: "Si Winston Sterzel ay isang 'laowai' mula sa Timog Aprika. Siya ngayon ay nakatira sa lunsod ng Shenzhen, probinsyang Guangdong, sa may timog na bahagi ng Tsina. ... Noong 2005, isang business trip ang nagdala kay Winston sa Shenzhen. Mula noon, nahulog ang kanyang loob sa Tsina. Nang makabalik sa Timog Aprika, ibinenta niya ang lahat ng kanyang ari-arian, at iniwan ang kanyang tahanan sa Johannesburg upang mamuhay sa Shenzhen. Sa kanyang pananatili sa Tsina, maraming natututunan si Winston, gaya ng maling pagkaunawa ng kanluran sa Tsina. Gusto ni Winston na baguhin ang mga stereotype at kamaliang ito." From Google Translate: "Winston Sterzel is a 'laowai' from South Africa. He now lives in the city of Shenzhen, Guangdong province, in the southern part of China. ... In 2005, a business trip brought with Winston in Shenzhen. Since then, he fell in China. After returning to South Africa, he sold all his property, and left his home in Johannesburg to live in Shenzhen. During his stay in China, learn more about Winston, like misunderstanding of western China. Winston wants to change the stereotypes and errors."</li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Winston Sterzel to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 06:54, 25 June 2018 (UTC) </li></ul>


 * Comment about sources: The Nanfang was "an English-language digital news and commentary website for southern China" according to the Hong Kong Free Press. Its editor in chief was Cam MacMurchy and its senior editor was Kevin McGeary. The Nanfang was cited by CBS News (link), The Washington Post (link), The Wall Street Journal (link), The Atlantic (link), and ABC News (link). From Identifying reliable sources: "One signal that a news organization engages in fact-checking and has a reputation for accuracy is the publication of corrections." Here are some corrections: <ol><li>https://thenanfang.com/man-in-guangzhou-offers-to-sell-legs-for-20000-each/ –"Note: A correction was made at 5:23 p.m. October 10. He offered his legs for 200,000 RMB, not 20,000."</li><li>https://thenanfang.com/suicide-bomber-detonates-at-residential-complex-in-downtown-guangzhou-seven-people-are-dead/ – "Correction: The original version of this story indicated that seven people had died; in fact, seven were injured. Our apologies for the error."</li><li>https://thenanfang.com/a-baby-is-in-intensive-care-in-guangzhou-after-a-nurse-accidentally-fed-her-baijiu/ – "*Note: Initially, we mistakenly said it was a “seven-year old infant.” In fact it was a seven-day old infant. This has now been corrected."</li></ol> Because The Nanfang had editorial oversight, published corrections, and was cited by numerous reliable sources, it passes Identifying reliable sources. Shenzhen Daily is an English-language newspaper based in Shenzhen. It covers the subject in multiple lengthy articles.  The newspaper Sing Tao Daily (Canada) published an 857-word article about the subject. That a Canadian publication covered a British-South African man based in China strongly establishes that the man is notable. This is international coverage about Winston Sterzel.  The Hong Kong TV broadcaster Phoenix Television published a 1426-word article about him.  The Chinese state-owned radio broadcaster China Radio International published a 175-word article in Filipino about the subject.  It is clear based on the above sources that Winston Sterzel passes Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".  Cunard (talk) 06:54, 25 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment about promotion: The article was created by, whose user page says, "This user is a student editor in Wiki Ed/Capilano University/ENGL 300 - Digital Writing Studio (Spring 2017)." The article was reviewed by , and content expert for the class provided feedback about how to improve the article.  The  article creator is a student who wrote this article for a class. I see no intent to promote the subject.  Cunard (talk) 06:54, 25 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Pinging Articles for deletion/Winston Sterzel participants:, , , , , , , , , , and . Cunard (talk) 06:54, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep per prior AFD cinco deL3X1 ◊distænt write◊  13:28, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete Upon further consideration, I have decided to change my vote. I do not believe this article meets WP:ENT and notability requirements. Jp16103 01:44, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep significant coverage. Suggest that the article also be reverted to re-include content removed in the last 6 weeks. He also has an IMDB profile. Editors, please note, look at the View History since May 9th, or a diff between now and then, it shows that significant chunks of the article have been removed over the past 6 weeks. This does look like a targeted effort. For example this heavy-handed blundering that's losing edited material. Also seems fishy that the editor putting this article up for deletion is the same one who put Matthew Tye up for deletion within 6 minutes of each other. Isofarro (talk) 17:47, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * My Chinese Life: Winston Sterzel--The Original China Vlogger - A profile of Winston Sterzel on China.com, dubbing him "The Original China Vlogger", also an item in City Weekender Watch: China's Original Vlogger is a Shenzhener, and television coverage on CRI: My Chinese Life: Winston Sterzel--The Original China Vlogger -- CRI (China Radio International) is a Chinese government run news agency.
 * Falling in love with SZ in three days -- The Shenzhen government website reposts a local news item about Winston Sterzel as he documents Shenzhen's growth and steady evolution.
 * Watch Two Crazy Vloggers Drive 5,000km Across Southern China on Handmade Motorcycles -- The Beijinger reports on Sterzel and Tye's Kickstarter campaign for a video series travelling through Southern China by motorbike. Also press coverage in Shenzhen Daily Expat filming S. China trip documentary. This resulted in a video that is available, amongst others, on Amazon Conquering Southern China, and led to inclusion in IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes. And now a fully funded Kickstarter campaign for "Conquering Northern China" Conquering Northern China -- Adventure/Travel Series.
 * Take 5: YouTube Vlogger Winston Sterzel -- A profile / 10-questions interview of Winston Sterzel for That's Shenzhen, an online magazine part of the Hong Kong's Focus Media Group.
 * Spectrum Sino Radio Schedule -- Radio segment with Winston Sterzel titled "My chinese life Winston Sterzel". Spectrum Sino is a freeview DAB Radio station part of the GB Times Media company.
 * Global Times: ‘Different does not mean wrong’, September 2017
 * Xinhua: South Africans find home away from home in China, August 2015.
 * Eye Shenzhen: British YouTuber helps foreigners settle in China, October 2017 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Isofarro (talk • contribs) 18:35, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * USA Today: Chinese are OK with Utah teen's controversial cheongsam prom dress, 4 May 2018, uses Sterzel's video collecting (Shenzhen-based) Chinese people's reaction as a counterpoint to the online outrage about cultural appropriation. Isofarro (talk) 16:47, 2 July 2018 (UTC)


 * IMDB is utterly irrelevant and not a reliable source. CHRISSY MAD  ❯❯❯  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  2:08 pm, Today (UTC−4)
 * The Matthew Tye article is a massive abuse of process, it has been deleted twice and recreated. The two subjects are linked as per the quote "Matthew is best known for his work alongside his filming partner Winston Sterzel, also known as SerpentZA." In my opinion neither subject is notable, and the Tye article requires salting. But if you have evidence for your "fishy" comment then I suggest you report me to the admins. Shritwod (talk) 21:26, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Isofarro, please don't make any more personal attacks. As a side note, having a profile on IMDB is, indeed, completely meaningless, and I am puzzled that a citizen of the 21st century thinks that something being for sale on Amazon is somehow a mark of fame or notability. Drmies (talk) 14:44, 28 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Weak keep - Barely passes notability. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:13, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment Because of the large number of SPAs editing the article, I have protected it (not this AfD) for one week, being the duration of the AfD. Anthony Bradbury "talk" 21:53, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete -- does not meet WP:ENT; promotional article. Associated with another nn YouTuber, whose articles is also at AfD, for the 3rd time:
 * Articles for deletion/Matthew Tye (3rd nomination).
 * Sources presented above are not sufficient to establish encyclopedic relevance of this subject. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:07, 28 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete. Notability not found for WP:GNG. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:26, 28 June 2018 (UTC).


 * Keep - don't see any problem with this page; if one finds any problem, simply edit it. Alexkctam (talk) 13:40, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment That an article comes from WikiEd student does not establish notability or guarantee a non-promotional article. Unfortunately, even good faith editors often write in a manner that is indistinguishable from promotionalism, due to the prevelance of advertisingh in the world generally, and in WP specifically.  DGG ( talk ) 15:08, 28 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep. I wish this could be unprotected so it could be recast based on the sources, including those listed by, but I see substantial info about him in the bike business article (whose content is not being used), at least one of the Chinese sources Cunard lists counts toward notability, so does the "crazy guys" thing, so does The Nanfang, so do the Shenzheng Daily articles (though it should be noted how many of Cunard's list of sources are from that same paper), and so to a lesser extent does the USA Today mention. That's enough. So whatever the state of the article now or at previous stages, I advocate keeping it per WP:GNG. Yngvadottir (talk) 16:31, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * , would you mind unprotecting so that Yngvadottir can get to work? Cunard's list is one thing, but seeing it incorporated into the article (through the filter of Y's judgment) is quite another. If there's more disruption we might could handle it in our usual heavy-handed manner--with blocks for those who deserve it. Thanks! Drmies (talk) 17:44, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Unprotected as requested. Anthony Bradbury "talk" 18:47, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but I can only make a start right now; I hope someone else will jump in. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:04, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your significant improvements to the article, . Cunard (talk) 00:55, 2 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete. Sterzel aka SerpentZA is not notable for achievments in a jobs or as a YouTuber. Controversial Subject #1 - Winston Sterzel There are only a few local newspaper reports in China. He is not mentioned in major newspapers, neither in China nor in English-speaking countries like his mother country South Africa, USA or Britain. Sterzel is a full-time YouTuber and has no other job. This article is advertising his YouTube channel, because he is dependent on support of his patreons to make a living in China. His documentary films Conquering Northern China and Conquering Southern China with fellow English-speaking expatriate Matthew Tye didn't reach much attention and were not shown on TV or in cinemas. An IMDb entry can be made by anyone who is registered there and does not prove any notablity. Matthew Tye already moved back to the US and lives near his parents, because he couldn't live in China any more.  --AlternativesLebensglück (talk) 20:34, 28 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep: y'all are making me use my Chinese. Anyway, subject does not meet WP:ENT, but the sources provided do allow for a presumption, however slight, of notability, and for an article to thus be written. Having said that, I am disappointed by the blatant canvassing carried out by the subject of the article. &mdash; Javert2113 (Siarad.&#124;&#164;) 05:50, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep Have seen his Conquering Southern China series locally on TV here in California as well as having attended his premiere screening in the Los Angeles Independent Theatre for CNC Jason Sonic2k (talk) 07:15, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The article about Winston Sterzel contains irrelevant and false information about him being "head engineer and one of three owners with Tye of acustom motorcycle business in Shenzhen called Churchill Custom Motorcycles" which was closed several years ago. "medical training manager" is also an exaggeration. As far as in his videos on YouTube was mentioned he taught English in a hospital. He didn't not have a contract with this hospital any more and relies on his supporter at Patreon which give him money for producing his videos and make a living in China. All this informationion cannot be proved by independent media, but has to be sourced by his YouTube videos.
 * Teaching english is not the same as medical training.
 * From The Nanfang article (June 2014): "He works for a medical training company, training doctors in international hospital rules, etiquette, medical terminology and other things related to internships in Australia and Germany." Isofarro (talk) 12:43, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * As there are not many reports about Sterzel in the media false information will stay in his article for ever.   --AlternativesLebensglück (talk) 11:47, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * This is not medical training, but English training. He is not a doctor or medically trained person. He just taught them English terminology. --AlternativesLebensglück (talk) 15:29, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep the concerted effort being made to discredit this page only goes to prove that he meets the GNG guidelines. Nobody would try so hard to get a page deleted if he was a nobody あいこく (talk) 16:35, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I've blocked Jason Sonic2k, Serpentza, and あいこく as socks.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:06, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * There is no difference between Sterzel and Matthew Tye, because both people are YouTube and filmed two movies together. --AlternativesLebensglück (talk) 23:29, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I've stricken their comments. Cunard (talk) 00:55, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep we all know this guy in China 小粉红龙 (talk) 02:20, 30 June 2018 (UTC)<small class="afdnewuser-notice">— has only contributed to the article(s) under discussion for deletion and this XFD page. Shritwod (talk) 12:24, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * You need a source for that claim. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:29, 2 July 2018 (UTC).

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete most of these keeps are pretty weak and not at all based on established process or policies. His IMDb page is irrelevant and few, if any, of the sources are significant or in depth.  CHRISSY MAD  ❯❯❯  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  11:07, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   19:32, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Weak keep, per Cunard's sources, and current sourcing. <b style="color:#7F007F">TimTempleton</b> <sup style="color:#800080">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  19:42, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment, article around 250 words (exc. refs.), afd around 4250 words, still aways to make it on coolas longest afd list but pretty good being around 17 times article length. Coolabahapple (talk) 15:26, 3 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.