Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wyvern (online game)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete. Simply doesn't assert importance or meeting WP:WEB, and everyone in the AfD who doesn't play the game seems to agree. W.marsh 14:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Wyvern (online game)
An online game. Asserts "award winning" but does not prove it, website appears to be 404, no sources. Guy 18:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC) *Delete - Fails WP:WEB, WP:V. Wickethewok 20:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete I wasn't aware that games that weren't even in beta testing yet could win awards. Danny Lilithborne 20:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Change to weak delete - While the award seems legitimate enough, all of the links added here are either to blogs, product listings, sites that just link to the Wyvern downloads, or press releases. It still doesn't seem to pass requirements for independent reliable sources.  Wickethewok 18:25, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Guy and Danny Lilithborne, you really should do your research before making accusations like that. Why don't you take a look at the link below and then possibly revise your previous statements. http://www.insignia.com/content/contest/index.shtml Kassis, Michael 1 November 2006 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.157.48.97 (talk • contribs) 2006-11-01 22:49:08
 * Being my first post to wikipedia, please forgive any errors regarding my comment posting format, as I am currently ignorant of of what the norm may be. My vote is: Keep this article. While the current creation of this article is rather ill timed for reasons explained below, I am getting a bit tired of having it deleted all the time. (Though yes, there were times when it deserved to be deleted, because someone tried to make it a game guide)  This article is neutral (it does not try to convince you to play the game), it is not a game guide, it is a simple game overview.  And as Kassis said, above, it really has won an award. It was for the PDA version of the game client.  To Danny's comment "Beta test" means many different things to many different projects. There is no standard definition as to what a beta version. What it means is based on whatever the company or group wants. In the case of wyvern, it means roughly:
 * fully playable
 * bugs exist, and are being fixed
 * content is being actively added
 * more bugs are naturally occurring from the new content, and will eventually/are be fixed.
 * game balance is not exactly where the wizards want it to be
 * I have played this game for 4 years, and can say from experiance that it is beta as much as open source projects are all beta. The game server is down, because Steve Yegge (know as "Rhialto" in game) is in the process of upgrading\switching the operating system (supposedly ubuntu). Unfortunatly, he is having more problems than expected. He wants to make absolutley sure the server and game are secure.  One can see what the website looked like simply by looking at a cache. link  If you think having server problems means an article should be deleted, I must disagree. If the World of Warcraft servers were all taken down due to severe problems, nobody would say "well, time to delete all information from wikipedia about this game". If something happened, and the game was never playable again, then the articles would still be preserved for historical purposes, the only change would be past tense would be used. Wyvern will be up again, but as for a time frame, I cannot say.  One should also keep in mind, this game is not simply a text mud. You can login via telnet(i.e. for chatting), but you CANNOT play it like a typical mud. It is a fully graphical game, much like Crossfire (much of which inspired wyvern) or Daimonin  Crossfire wiki: Crossfire (computer game)  I would like to ask wikipedians to please stop trying to disrupt this article simply because they do not see it as valuable. Other people do.  Logwad 04:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * As the first two votes for Delete have been basically fully negated, it stands to reason that the vote is, at best, 1-2. I vote Keep. Why pick on just this article. Wikipedia in general isn't 100% accurate, so it can't be used as a reliable source for anything. Why not focus all your energy on attempting to remedy this instead of just sitting around and deleting articles you don't approve of. I'm not sure exactly how this voting system works, but if it isn't majority rules, then that seems a little off. Oh wait. Just checked up on it. The link Kassis posted and the External to the homepage of the website should both satisfy "Fails WP:WEB, WP:V." As Logwad said, you can view a cache of the homepage. And, just in case you're interested, Wickethewok, Deletion policy (Edited to remove the "head count" and the mistake about WP:V")69.29.72.220 22:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I suggest that you check it yourself first. Being unverifiable has always been a criterion for deletion. It is, in fact, one of our primary criteria.  This isn't a vote, and tallies count for very little if one side cannot make any argument based upon our policies and guidelines.  So stop counting heads and start citing sources.  If you want to make a proper argument &mdash; so far you have not, let alone refuted the arguments made above &mdash; cite sources to demonstrate that the article's subject satisfies the WP:WEB criteria. Sources are your best, and only, arguments against the charge that something is unverifiable.  Multiple, non-trivial, published works from sources independent of the subject are your best arguments against the charge that the WP:WEB criteria are not satisfied. Uncle G 09:52, 2 November 2006 (
 * Just a note: From what I've gathered, it is almost impossible for any MMORPG to have an article in Wikipedia. For these games the main website, a player, and whatever they publish is considered a primary source, unless it is published by a reliable source. That point alone makes writing an article extremely hard. The other problem being that unless you're a HUGE game like RuneScape you're probably not going to have many reliable sources publish anything about the game at all. And if any reliable source has published anything about the game, you can't just say that they have, you must give proof, use a link to their website to show that it is true, otherwise it may be considered unverifiable. Garth of NEaB 14:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I better add no source if ever reliable, nobody can ever be truely objective, so I suggest you delete the entire Wikipedia Database.


 * Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.  RON   Let's talk  19:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Cite sources then?

http://www.mmoginfo.com/pc/Wyvern/index.html

http://www.mpogd.com/games/game.asp?ID=824

http://www.gamesdex.com/gameview.php/902

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=Wyvern

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyvern_(%E3%82%AA%E3%83%B3%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B2%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A0)

http://www.brainbell.com/tutorials/java/Basic_Java_Limitations.htm

http://www.insignia.com/content/about/releases/021121.shtml

http://www.killefiz.de/zaurus/showdetail.php?app=360

http://www.pdamania.hu/blog/Menneisyys/5512/

for starters. 69.29.72.220 22:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

____________________________

I find this verifiable thing confusing. As far as the statement that the game is "award winning", I can see that this has drawn much ire from wikipedians. Would it satisfy you (plural) if I removed the "award winning" from the main description, and moved it to a subtopic on the page called "Achievements"(sp), or something?

And then as far as it being a game, yes, it is a game. I fail to see why it needs to be verified. In fact, I do not truly understand what you find wrong with this article. Non-notable? Type "wyvern"(a fairly common fantasy term) in google, and www.cabochon.com comes up as the first page rank.

I'm asking for a solution, rather than a "nuke it" mentality.

What if I create a bio for Steve Yegge, the creator? Steve Yegge has become quite well know for his "rants" on many aspects on programming, and has worked for Amazon and now for Google. http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/ Would having a famous creator help convince you that information on the game Wyvern in wikipedia would be desireable?

Other links (is a simple link truly considered a source? Seems silly to put such things IN the article.)

http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/games/role_strategy/wyvernclient.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_MMORPGs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MMORPGs

http://dictionary.laborlawtalk.com/wyvern (Link near bottom)

http://play-free-online-games.com/games/wyvern.html

http://alt-news.net/alt.mudders/1787/

Sadly, this link has expired, it held the original award page for the award the wyvern Zarus client: http://www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/f_headline.cgi?bw.112102/223252121&ticker=INSG

Logwad 03:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC) ____________________________


 * The point of having the sources listed is to prove that what you wrote is verifiable. This is also the reason that non-trivial secondary sources should be used, because they are more easily verified. (That's what I get out of it at least) Garth of NEaB 16:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Logwad 00:30, 4 November 2006 (UTC) *Woops, forgot to sign earlier.*
 * For things like a certain type of tree grows x inches a year and whether someone won an award or not, I understand this perfectly. But this article is almost purely an overview of what the Wyvern game is, so that people can get a quick understanding of what it is about. I often will look through wiki for a game is about before downloading, setting up an account etc. MY intention is that sort of thing be offered for Wyvern too, as it is not game that is just starting up or anything, but has been around a while. So I do not understand why people simply want to nuke this article. If there is a sentence that needs a factual source, one can simply edit the wiki for it to say "needs source", or tag the article for cleanup.


 * What we have above is directory entries (which fail the "non-trivial" test), links someone (you?) added to Wikipedia and other add-it-yourself sites, and nothing which independently verifies the text of the article. Plus the link is still 404.  So right now I can't verify the ocntent from any reliable independent source, I can't even verify it exists, I can't check the neutrality of the article because the sources cited are all trivial and appear not to be independent, the content itself appears to be drawn from personal knowledge not from coverage in secondary sources - without fixing these problems the article violates core policies and must be deleted.  Guy 09:47, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Like I said earlier, this article had horrible timing. So for clarification, could you give me an example of what you would consider a "non-trivial" source? Do you mean some sort of website that specializes in game reviews? If this is the case, does popularity determine "non-trivial". How do I determine whether it is non-trivial source? I hope I do not come across as argumentative, I have already resigned that this article will most likely be deleted as people seem to have a problem with it. I am only trying to fully understand how to resolve these issues in the future. Thank you for your patience. Logwad 21:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Non-trivial would be a popular source that has been reliable for past things. So an independent game review website/magazine would probably be okay, as long as it is independent and it is well known. Garth of NEaB 03:58, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete. Unfortunately, I'm having the same verification problems as User:Guy, as most of those appear to be "add it yourself" database sites.  An award might establish some sort of notability, but again, I'm having problems finding reliable information on what that award might be.  Not every free, online MMOG is notable, and this one doesn't make a very strong case for inclusion.  Between that and the lengthy posts by anonymous/new users, I'm inclined to delete. --Alan Au 07:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, I'm having trouble verifying that the "award" is notable. I mean, I could go around giving people "awards" if I thought it would help.  --Alan Au 07:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I considered the same thing, so I removed the "award winning" part from the article. Eventually, when this article can properly stand, then there will be mention of the award in another part of the article. The award WAS a big deal, years ago, because PDA's where becoming big, and there were very few games, much less one like wyvern. Things changed. Now I heard you can play 3-d rpgs on your phone. Logwad 18:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree. There are many unique aspects of this game for which it has been recognised. Those reasons and rcognitions should be noted despite how minor the award may seem, its' still appropraite to the history of the game. --69.244.153.46 23:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep Per Log's and others sources. This game and it's classic notabillity are establishable just not in the conventional way. Keep in mind notabilliy guidelines are not rules and for determining the notabillity of post MUD and pre MMPORG RPGS all that will ever exist are reviews and opinions. Still, just the fact that its the only still well known bridge between the telnet MUD era and the internet's recent boon of animae MMPORPG's warrents it to be of historical interest among online gaming historians. --69.244.153.46 23:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete The article as it exists now fails to assert notability in any way. NawlinWiki 05:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep I can confirm most of the information in this article, from personal knowledge, as I used to play, and I think the subject is notable enough, although it would stop being notable if the game was down permanently. The article should be given some time to survive while the game creator works on bringing the server up. If the server doesn't come up any time soon, such as in the next two months or so, then the article should be deleted at that time and created again only when the server comes back up (if ever), at which time information about the game can be verified. Since the article isn't too great at this point, it could use a rewrite either way. Aborlan 00:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.