Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/YHWH aleim, YHWH's Council of Elohim


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete all as incoherent original research.  Sandstein  20:24, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

YHWH aleim, YHWH's Council of Elohim
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Contested prod/prod2, removed by author. Article is entirely original research; it cites no sources and seems to be an essay of sorts. Fails WP:RS, WP:V. &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 16:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm adding the following articles for the same reasons:

&mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 14:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC) The other articles have other issues, so separate AfDs have been created. &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 15:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: I have removed all original interpolation, and I cited sources in the original article. This subject has been studied in depth by scholars, just because it is not the fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible does not automatically make it invalid. Heiser and other scholars (whose names I will include shortly) are accredited and published Hebrew scholars. Martha H. Jones (talk) 17:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Besides Heiser here are a few other authors who discuss this subject.
 * Sayce, A. H. Polytheism in Primitive Israel, p. 25, The Jewish Quarterly Review, Vol. 2, No. 1 (Oct., 1889) pp. 25-36. 
 * Gods, Goddesses and Myths of Creation, Harper and Row, New York, 1974, pp 21-25. & Pelican, The Greek Myths: 1, 1986, 28:3, p.144.
 * Cox, Wade. The Elect as Elohim. 
 * Collins, Andrew, From the Ashes of Angels - The Forbidden Legacy of a Fallen Race (1996)


 * I will be adding more citations to the article if I am given time. Martha H. Jones (talk) 17:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: Just as a heads up, Martha is the author of the article. &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 17:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * More authors.
 * The Early History of Heaven by J. Edward Wright in Back Matter (1), Back Matter (2), and Back Matter (3)
 * The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts by Mark S. Smith in Back Matter
 * The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel (Biblical Resource Series) by Mark S. Smith in Front Matter
 * The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts by Mark S. Smith in Back Matter
 * Among the Host of Heaven: The Syro-Palestinian Pantheon As Bureaucracy. Handy, Lowell K.


 * I did not cite these as I was not quoting their work focusing mainly on Heiser. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Martha H. Jones (talk • contribs) 17:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * DELETE -- Unfortunately, User:Martha_H._Jones is creating "content forks" left and right, is using highly non-standard transliterations of Hebrew (such as "Aleim"[sic!] for the word more correctly transcribed "Elohim"), and is not really complying with Wikipedia policies in creating new articles. She's apparently diligently (though selectively) scouring the scholarly literature, but this enthusiasm will be of little use unless she can bring it more in line with the needs and requirements of Wikipedia. AnonMoos (talk) 21:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Apparently you have not studied all the different interlinear Hebrew Bibles that use the term Aleim, like the one at  Martha H. Jones (talk) 22:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Why would I want to use interlinears, when I can directly use the BHS -- without a need for such crutches intended for people who don't really know Hebrew? AnonMoos (talk) 22:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Godfrey Higgins in his classic book Anacalypsis (V. 1; p. 64-65, 67) gives the etymology of Elohim, originally spelled aleim. He states the following: "Perhaps there is no word in any language about which more has been written than the word Aleim; or, AS MODERN JEWS CORRUPTLY CALL IT, ELOHIM. The root … al, the root of the word Aleim, as a verb or it its verbal form, means to mediate, to interpose for protection, to perserve; and a noun, a mediator, an interposer. In its feminine its has two forms …ale, and … alue. In its plural masculine it makes … alim, in is plural feminine … aleim."

"In the old language God was called Al, Ale, Alue, and Aleim, more frequently Aleim than any other name." Gamble, Eliza Burt. God Idea of the Ancients,

See also

MOODY, JAMES. THE EVIDENCE FOR CHRISTIANITY CONTAINED IN THE HEBREW WORDS ALEIM AND BERIT, stated and defended, against the repeated rabbinical attempts to invalidate and destroy it. And

Higgins, Godfrey. On the Word Aleim or Jewish Trinity (ISBN: 9781428691919)

Higgins was a master of multiple ancient languages and comparative religion, I have more confidence in his erudition than in those brainwashed by dogma from those who teach only one approach to the interpretation (based on religious oppression and censorship) of Hebrew writings. So if you want to forward that religious oppression and censor those who don't agree with your limited view, that is your choice, but not one that can be respected by those who choose to look deeper into our past. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Martha H. Jones (talk • contribs) 05:03, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete Perhaps userfy this for Martha and let her work on it a bit. It reads as original research, but there are some scholarly sources, apparently, which argue for there having been polytheism in the early days of Israel, when "the host of heaven" included other gods beside Yahweh/Jehovah, with Old Testament scribes reworking early texts to make Yahweh the only god and the others mere angels or messengers. I have heard this idea from the pulpit of mainline protestant churches. There could well be an article Polytheism in early Israel with scholarly sources supporting and arguing (vehemently) against the thesis. The one source cited in the article  supports the thesis that Yahweh was not the lone god in the early old testament history of Israel. It does not sayy where or if it was published, but the CV of the author, Michael Heiser,  says he has a chapter called the "Divine Council" coming out in a peer reviewed dictionary of religion by Intravarsity Press this year, which will provide a reliable source. I do not feel that the present title or even the present main topic of the article really rise far enough above original research. The creator (of the article, that is) says it is under construction, and cites several works she says can contribute to it. Getting it up to standards in the 5 days typically allowed for AFD debates is a tall order, which is why I suggest userfying and coming back with an improved article, such as Polytheism in early Israel. so that Martha can try and turn this into an acceptable article. The one ref seems to have been written by someone with a Ph.D., but it does not state at the website  that it was published anywhere. Without that, it does not qiualify as a WP:RS reliable source. The scholarly works it cites do appear to be reliable sources, and a clever enough theologian with access to those sources could probably write an acceptable article. Edison (talk) 23:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There's an article "Asherah pole", but early Israelite polytheism actually has very little ascertainable concrete attested relationship with plural meanings of the word Elohim. AnonMoos (talk) 07:53, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment It looks like the article Henotheism would be the appropriate place for any comments on the belief by early Israelites that there were many gods beside the pone they worshipped, and that the heavenly beings later considered God's angels were in early days considered lesser deities. This is far from a novel synthesis. Edison (talk) 23:21, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Reply from Martha (author of article) I am definitely apposed to the idea of including this discussion under Henotheism because that limits the interpretation to one of YHWH as "a god among other gods", so it does not allow for the possibility that YHWH is "THE ALL IN ALL." (distinctly different from His council of Elohim). The concept of a deity who is "All in all" is suggested in the New Testament 1 Cor. 15:28 . Henotheism seems to me to be Muller's theory of a sort of general polytheism and thus does not presents a neutral point of view that would allow the reader to assess for himself whether this is the case or whether YHWH is a distinctly different being capable of being "All in all". To categorize the article as Henothism would imply that YHWH is a god in the shape and form of a man among other gods in the shape and form of men (allbeit in the spirit world); that would limit the article to that particular point of view. Martha H. Jones (talk) 15:36, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment As you acknowledge, you are attempting to present a very particular religious idea and wish to include only material consistent with that idea. A difficulty here is that for all we can tell, this "ALL IN ALL" concept and the various other attributes you describe may have originated with you rather than being a standard concept in general religious or academic literature. If so, because of its No original research policy, Wikipedia may be a poor place to present this type of material. I gather that the basic theme underlying the articles you've written is that the genuine Old Testament originally had a pluralistic concept of God that was particularly friendly to Christianity, but this concept was repressed by Levite scribes who repressed alternative views and emended the text in order to turn it into a strict montheism. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 17:53, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep and change the title to whatever is the standard one in the literature cited. The concept is notable, and there do seem to be sources. DGG (talk) 00:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The idea of a divine council is not really stated directly anywhere in the Old Testament, but is more or less speculatively reconstructed by triangulating between Ugaritic or Mesopotamian mythology and some occasional uses of pronouns "we" and "us" and plural verb and adjective forms in a few scattered Bible verses. This hypothesis probably deserves to be included somewhere on Wikipedia, but article "Elohim" is not a very good place, and the article "YHWH aleim, YHWH's Council of Elohim" in its current form has many grave flaws (not to mention a ridiculous name). AnonMoos (talk) 08:03, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions.   —L ' Aquatique  [ happy  fourth  ! ]  03:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

*Keep per DGG. Bhaktivinode (talk) 03:10, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: I'd also like to consider adding YHWH Aleim‎, Plural verbs with Elohim as God, and The Levite Scribes the Sopherim to this AfD; all are articles written by Martha, and all are basically in the same style. Would that be an acceptable addition? &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 06:24, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree -- AnonMoos (talk) 08:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * So done. &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 14:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Henotheism pre-exists this article, so creating a second on may be a bit premature. Unfortunately, that article also seems to be rather undersourced and the "Israelite beliefs and Judaism" section doesn't seem to have any sources at all. The topic of academic theories that the religion of ancient Israel was once henotheistic does seem to have sufficient coverage in academic literature to be worth an article, and there do seem to be multiple henotheistic theories proposed. (See also, for example, William G. Dever, "Did God Have a Wife?" and the Asherah article). Although not an AfD issue, this article needs significant clean-up and may need to be stubbified given its current state. Religious subjects are very controversial. An article on this type of subject needs to use careful attribution language, to be careful at all times to clarify that it is presenting a particular view rather absolute fact, and to cite virtually all information presented using footnote-style references. It's not appropriate to present the views of controversial theories as if they were undisputed background fact with only a bibliography as references. Conveying who makes a particular claim can be as important as conveying the claim itself. The chief problem with the current article is that it's very hard to verify. It's not easy to tell whether or not significant original research might be interspersed among cited material or if the article contains syntheses of source material to reach conclusions going beyond what the sources say. Footnote-style sourcing would address this.  Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 06:58, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment to nom - I would suggest creating a separate AfD page for each of the three articles you are nominating. The issues involved in each may be different. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 07:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: Fair enough. Just trying to be a little more efficient. &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 15:48, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * So done. Separate AfDs all around. &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 15:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * delete a part of a series of OR by the author.. Mukadderat (talk) 17:38, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete as original research. BradV  18:45, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been posted to the WikiProject Bible Biblical criticism work group discussion page.  --Shirahadasha (talk) 04:06, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete this incoherent WP:NOR based on violations of WP:NEO. IZAK (talk) 08:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per OR. Bhaktivinode (talk) 13:14, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. Incoherent original research. Jayjg (talk) 05:07, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete or userify per WP:POVFORK. Having a separate article to present a particular conception of Henotheism that is nothing but a user's original research violates the WP:POVFORK policy as well as WP:OR. Any legitimately sourced material can go in Henotheism or Elohim. --Shirahadasha (talk) 03:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment As User:DGG notes, the idea of a divine council has some support in the academic literature but is not referred to by this title. This AfD should not be construed to cover a reliably-sourced article on the subject with a title used in the literature, although I would suggest starting it as a section of Henotheism or Elohim and splitting later if needed. AsAnonMoos notes, this idea, like many ideas on religous subjects, is based on a certain amount of speculation. However, so long as the speculation is by figures covered in reliable sources the validity of the idea is not ours to judge. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 03:22, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per Jayjg, Shirahadasha, et al. Sorry, but no words can do justice.  Or userfy per DGG, to start over with a new title and some additional academic sources. 18:20, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.