Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/YTCracker (3rd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Although the !voting among experienced Wikipedians was pretty even until the point that Theredspecial added substantial sourcing to the article, that change decisively turned this discussion in favor of keeping the article. In light of that and the tentative nature of some of the early delete votes (JBsupreme, Bali Ultimate), I feel comfortable closing this early as keep. The reason I'm closing it early is to put an end to the meatpuppetry and because I think a different conclusion is unlikely given the recent re-writing. In assessing consensus, meatpuppets' votes were disregarded.-chaser (talk) 17:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

YTCracker
AfDs for this article: 
 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Insufficient sources, seems to fail WP:MUSIC. Kept through two previous AFDs in 2006 with provision that sources be added, and that ain't happened. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 03:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak delete partly per nom. He seemed to be more notable as a hacker, but not every hacker is notable. Fails several guidelines, including WP:MUSIC.  American Eagle  ( talk ) 04:49, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. Wasn't YTCracker in that Frontalot documentary disguised as a "nerdcore" documentary?  I can't remember.  Either way, without proper sourcing this article has gotta go. JBsupreme (talk) 06:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete 2+ years is more than enough time to allow for conditions like that to be met. Timeline should be in weeks not months in situations like this. Drawn Some (talk) 12:02, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep WP:SOFIXIT Both past AfDs closed as snow keeps and there seems to be plenty to work with. There is a list of references linked at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/YTCracker, I suggest the nom make use of them. Per WP:BEFORE AfD is not for editorial issues that can be corrected through the normal editing process. WP:NOEFFORT and WP:RUBBISH are not valid reasons to nominate an article for deletion. The Ties to the computer underworld section already has two references that are perfectly acceptable. Tothwolf (talk) 15:25, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I checked those sources. None of them seems substantial. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 16:43, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggest you double check because that's not what I'm seeing. We must not be looking at the same links... Tothwolf (talk) 17:17, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm seeing a seemingly non-reliable blog and a bunch of one sentence mentions. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 17:27, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * just admit it you hate a nerd on the grind dont hate the player hate the game rewrite the article goon sire Ytcracker (talk) 01:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment I see these, which are all perfectly acceptable:
 * Rap Marketing Comes to Nerdcore
 * Spammin' is slammin'
 * AOL security breach exposes personal info
 * Cracker Launches Attack on NASA
 * Feds leave doors open for hackers
 * I'm sure Google would turn up even more. You seriously need to lay off the JavaScript bulk XfD nomination tools.
 * --Tothwolf (talk) 17:43, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Another thing, this article has been effectively gutted since the last two snowball keep AfDs, ~1 year ago it looked like this Seems to me this AfD is completely unfounded. Tothwolf (talk) 18:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Accusatory much? You seriously need to lay off the constant trouting of a good faith editor. You seem to act as if I want to delete everything I can. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 19:17, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Chewbacca defense much? Unfortunately that isn't going to work. The only thing I've said so far is I think you are being just a little too quick to click on your pretty JavaScript buttons. Now, in the case of this article, you either
 * A. Failed to check the article history, or
 * B. Checked and didn't care
 * Either way, the fact that the article is down to less than 1/4 of what it was about a year ago means your nomination is faulty. Given that so much material (and a number of sources from the looks of it) has been removed from the article, your nomination reason of "Kept through two previous AFDs in 2006 with provision that sources be added, and that ain't happened" is absolutely invalid (not to mention I don't see any such statements in those past two AfDs). Now, I assumed you simply did not check the article's history before nominating it for AfD. The only other option is 'B' and I'd rather not assume that because that will end up involving a lot more work.
 * --Tothwolf (talk) 21:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * youre the boss you have a place in my new world order high five Ytcracker (talk) 02:17, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Wired magazine and other sources found, indicate notability.  D r e a m Focus  19:45, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete the absence of multiple reliable sources that treat the subject of a BLP in any depth, as is the case here, would appear to be dispositive for inclusion.Bali ultimate (talk) 19:53, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. notability appears trivial at best Theserialcomma (talk) 21:23, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

i have commercials airing ALL over comcast's network - they own g4tv, e!, and style http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/686579/More_Nerdcore_On_TV_YT_Cracker.html ive been in newsweek IN PRINT http://www.newsweek.com/id/42852 ive been in blender ive been on mtv the sf examiner the boston globe i own digitalgangster.com home of the miley cyrus hacks, paris hilton hacks, twitter hacks of barack obama etc. just this year im an official dj/mc for facebook i do their corporate parties http://ytcracker.com/about some people just gutted the nuts out of this article and i quit editing it seriously lol hating ita sorry i move units haters hugs and kisses Ytcracker (talk)
 * Abstain this is going to be another snowball keep - you realize i tour INTERNATIONALLY?
 * Keep Notable computer hacker and Nerdcore rap artist with 76,000 results in Google and many credible sources GRYF. Padillac (talk)
 * Strong Keep Are you serious? This is nothing more than harassment on an internet celebrity. He owns sites that are visited by millions daily, he tours internationally, has commercials on one of the most watched channels in the US, G4, and he has made several news articles over the years. This is a false attempt by an internet charlatan trying to dispute the popularity of someone he idolizes. This is the attempted Mark David Chapman of 2k9. Whoever began this movement should have his Wiki account deleted and his edits of other pages checked for authenticity and prejudice. mattqatsi —Preceding undated comment added 02:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC).  — Mattqatsi (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Keep The article has been trimmed quite substantially recently, and would seemingly have passed your criteria a number of months ago. Ytcracker has only gotten more notable in the time being, so the article should be fixed and kept. Tom (talk) 02:20, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep Definitely a prevalent figure in the nerdcore scene. He's even in G4 commercials as seen on http://g4tv.com/gspot/videos/26652/Nerdcore_YT_Cracker.html. The man is on TV repeatedly for his music such as on MTV, seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDnx2e9zwyE. And yes, GRYF. Morreo (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:21, 25 May 2009 (UTC).
 * Keep per Tothwolf's arguments. Until It Sleeps  02:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep ytcracker is an influential persona both in real life and on the internet. don't google results mean anything anymore? if ytcracker gets deleted then wikipedia is a failure. Aerno (talk) 02:37, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep I've seen YTCracker perform, I know he's real. Google says so, G4TV says so.  MTV says so.  Youtube says so.  Etc. etc..  Why would you delete that?  Don't you want to participate in reality? Lullabud (talk) 02:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC) — Lullabud (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep "YTCracker" has MORE Google image search results than "Wikipedia" does.  The man juggles an intense career in the music and entertainment industry as well as an internet hustle that would blow your minds.  Do your research before you turn around and knock the empire that he has created over the last decade, ignorant morons.  As far as the administration at Wikipedia goes: I personally speak for thousands if not millions of fans when I tell you how disappointed I am that this website even entertains the unfounded garbage that other useless/no-name/haters (mc chris fans) manage to ramble on about.  STC is the greatest, power to the RJ45 jack.Edwardwoltin (talk) — Edwardwoltin (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep CNN, Wired, Oreilly, CNET, G4. There are so much more backing up this entry compared to other "internet celebrities" that have Wikipedia entries.  I mean just look at Leslie Hall
 * Strong Keep YTCracker is one of the most influential talents in the nerdcore scene. He is basically the founding father of the nerdcore genre that has spread across the nation like a wild fire. It is preposterous to even say that YTCracker's achievements are not notable enough for a Wikipedia entry. YTCracker is featured as a pivitol figure that leads the nerdcore G4 TV generation. YTCracker has stared in multiple G4 TV commercials that are aired nationally accross the United States. In my opinion YTCracker is a notable artist and deserves an entry.http://g4tv.com/gspot/videos/26652/Nerdcore_YT_Cracker.html The Crude Oil King (talk) — The Crude Oil King (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Strong Keep per Padillac and Mattqatsi's arguments. Theredspecial (talk) 02:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep YTCracker's strong arm stretches across the pacific ocean all the way out to Hawaii, we dancin' naked with leaves around our bodies whilst strumming the ukulele. Plus, read everything above and under me--spitting volcanic fire. Systom (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC).  — Systom (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Strong Keep How can one of the most influential artists to a popular musical genre be not notable? This is 2009, not 1984, the point of wikipedia is not to remove articles, it is to add articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.121.47.216 (talk) 03:06, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * lol —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.239.113.146 (talk) 03:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The number of sockpuppets coming out of the woodwork are lol to be sure. Where are you failbots coming from? JBsupreme (talk) 03:16, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, providing large quantities of sources basically proving your claims null automatically makes us failbots. Get out of here with your destructionist views. --Morreo (talk) 03:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * i told you i was a big deal holla at you koala ahoy at ya boy i will WP:SNOW this fail of an AfD what an injustice im watching future weapons on the television so im getting a kick out of these replies get your weak ish out my humpy bumpy Ytcracker (talk) 03:35, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think YTCracker's fanbase is stronger than the obvious bias seen on your user page and discussion JBSupreme —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.121.47.216 (talk) 03:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * JBSupreme, umad cus I'm stylin' on you? Theredspecial (talk) 03:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Just seems a little ridiculous that this is the 3rd nomination when there are so many sources to back up being noteworthy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.171.204.217 (talk) 03:27, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Straight up, YTC runs a empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.69.52.135 (talk) 03:31, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * THIS IS INSANE KEEP IT YTCRACKER IS THE UNDISPUTED HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP OF THE NERDCORE GENRE ALL YOU HATERS BETTER RECOGNIZE BLUNTBILL (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:35, 25 May 2009 (UTC).  — BLUNTBILL (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * dude props Theredspecial way to revert that garbage and cite everything with gangsterocity - im on top of the world Ytcracker (talk) 03:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I had to fix the internet, word Theredspecial (talk) 03:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I find it asine to destroy this article, he is notable for both a nerdcore mc, and a hacker/spammer. The reason why this is up for AfD due to the fact of how non-juicy the article is, after many sysops actually DELETED info which was credible and slandered his wiki article. If other nerdcore MC's have A's, then let YTC, because its like deleting a whole genre of music. He mainly started out nerdcore with front. DO NOT DELETE THIS ARTICLE —Preceding unsigned comment added by T0rba (talk • contribs) 04:28, 25 May 2009 (UTC)  — Torba (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep Mentions in major publications as being representative of the genre are MORE than enough for a keep. I read articles EVERY DAY that are unsourced/obscure yet they remain. There are THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS of articles that have worse sourcing than this, yet those remain because they are not high profile internet personalities. If a person that has multiple MSM mentions can't keep an article, then just delete the whole thing! ( * wikipedia that is) Mattarata (talk) 05:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep Deleting this page makes as much sense as deleting Kevin Mitnick and MC Frontalot's pages in one swipe. Notability as a hacker is proven. Notability as a Nerdcore artist is proven. Notability as an entrepreneur, while hardly touched on in the actual page, is proven. Sufficient sources, meets WP:MUSIC which is more then enough to keep this page.--Nwnerdcore (talk) 06:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC) — Nwnerdcore (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Strong Keep FORGOT TO ADD MY VOTE TEOL  —Preceding unsigned comment added by T0rba (talk • contribs) 07:24, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment The apparent incoming sockpuppet army isn't really helping. JuJube (talk) 09:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment From what I've seen it would appear to be fans and not sockpuppets. Tothwolf (talk) 12:04, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * '''I redid the whole article citing every source with some help (heh). One of the best written pages on Wikipedia in my opinion.  There is no longer an argument for deletion, "sockpuppets" or not.  STC is the greatest, holla at a scholar  Theredspecial (talk) 10:06, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Delete The subject of the article fails WP:NOTE, has not received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject. The number of sockpuppets and WP:SPAs at this AFD page is disturbing. I hope the closing administrator will take this into account. The sockpuppets should also be blocked. Cirt (talk) 11:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep "Sockpuppets" is always the last argument of people not getting their way on Wikipedia. That said; not only does this article surpass the requirements of a celebrity in media, (Blender Magazine's full page article for example) but I have had to request that it be semi-protected due to a vandal repeatedly removing said sources of relevance. If multiple appearances in magazines and television shows (mtv, G4, etc...) aren't a good enough source of notoriety than maybe the multiple newspaper and website articles could satiate the requirements. chozo_ninpo (talk) 08:00, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have no opinion on the matter; the influx of new accounts, all with similar styles and mannerisms, does not help this case is all I am saying (particularly when one calls another user an "ignorant monkey" as can be seen on this page). JuJube (talk) 14:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * chozo_ninpo beat me to saying it, the reason there are no sources on the page is because the same person/people who nominated the page for deletion have been purposefully vandalizing the page to remove sources and refferences —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.121.47.216 (talk) 12:04, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong delete per the incredible levels of sockpuppetry. &rarr;  Dylan 620  (Toolbox Alpha, Beta) 12:21, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is ridiculous. You voted to delete a notable article purely based off the amount of outcry the request for deletion has caused?  Last I checked, Wikipedia cited its rules based on notoriety and credible sources, for with which this article has in spades.  Accusing these other Wiki-users (including myself) as "sockpuppets" is not only completely and very obviously untrue, but  childish and insulting as well.  Keep the voting on the source material please. --chozo_ninpo (talk) 08:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Since when are fans and fellow nerdcore rappers coming to the defense sockpuppetry? You could possibly get away with playing the meatpuppet card, but that would be setting a standard of all fans of a given artist opinion's being worthless in the face of non-fans who don't like the artist and wish for his/her removal, which is exactly what is occuring here.  How users defend a page has nothing to do with the notability of the page, the content of the page SHOULD determine the notability, and that's hard to do when its being purposefully degraded.

HE TOURS INTERNATIONALLY YOU IGNORANT MONKEY —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edwardwoltin (talk • contribs) 13:06, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak, conditional delete. He is mentioned in a few reliable sources, but I couldn't find any of them which discusses him in enough detail to verify the information in the article- he's just one of a list of musicians, generally with only a sentence or two of information.  Touring internationally is one of the criteria at WP:MUSIC, but I wasn't able to find any reliable sources that confirm the existence of such a tour; none of the parade of meatpuppets have provided any useful information in this regard.  Note to the parade of YTCracker fans: you don't do any good by just telling us he's famous, but you could help a lot by providing us with a few newspaper articles about his tour, or articles in significant online sources (NOT blogs) that are all about him, and not just about nerdcore music in general.  I'd be glad to reverse my vote if I could verify that he has had an international tour which was written about in reliable sources. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 13:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. Mr. Cracker shared this article, which is in Dutch but appears to confirm the existence of an international tour.  Since touring internationally is one of the marks of notability at WP:MUSIC, that works for me.  -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 13:20, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment They actually did before the larger fanbase got wind of this: Newsweek: Geeksta Rap Rising, G4: More Nerdcore On TV: YT Cracker Tothwolf (talk) 13:26, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep per FisherQueen, this fellow seems notable enough. And get rid of all the socks.  Lychosis   T / C  13:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep per FisherQueen.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:10, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep MUSIC #1 has been met. "multiple" means "more than one". Even if you only count sources listed ON THIS AfD page (Newsweek, G4, Denver Westword (not just a blog -- look at the "about us" page. it's a local publication that's been around for a while), that is more than one reliable third-party source ON THE ARTICLE'S SUBJECT (not just one-sentence mentions in an article on something else). The nomination is therefore invalid, and this article should be kept. (Furthermore, to the closing admin -- please check IP addresses of all suspected sockpuppets. I know most of them personally, and I'm reasonably certain that many of them are in fact NOT sockpuppets, but the nerdcore community coming to the defense of this AfD. Check out the rhymetorrents board... yes.. a lot of nerdcore folks type alike.) .. and yes guys, he can be notable as both a musician AND a hacker. The article's about a PERSON, not his particular profession. -- spazure  (contribs) (review) 16:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Alright, I see the concerns regarding meatpuppets. I'm talking to people on a one on one basis on the RT boards and through twitter trying to explain the proper way to conduct themselves on an AfD.. they have a right to their opinions, but the barrage of "but he's famous srsly!" isn't particularly helping matters. -- spazure (contribs) (review) 16:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - lots of sources for his notoriety as a hacker, the problem may be that people are pushing for his recognition as a musician, which is probably less notable than his illegal activities. There are lots of reliable sources discussing his activities.  WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/complex 16:17, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. Ignore the socks and meatpuppets. The levels of vote-stacking in this case are unfortunate but they should not distract us from trying to find consensus based on arguments. Although it happened, experienced users should know not to !vote based on these happenings. Back to the topic at hand: FisherQueen (amongst others) has proven that notability exists in this case, multiple reliable sources establish notability, at the very least per the general notability guideline. Regards  So Why  17:06, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * keep Once one slugs through the above sockpuppetry which make one want to favor deletion simply in reaction, it does appear from reading the article that he meets WP:BIO which is what matters. I agree that there is a lot more sourcing for his hacking than for his music but that is an issue of how to write the detail of the article more than anything else. JoshuaZ (talk) 17:21, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep (switched from delete) - As much as I dislike the massive levels of meating/socking (I even filed the SPI), hacking into government interfaces is certainly a notable accomplishment. &rarr;  Dylan 620  (Toolbox Alpha, Beta) 17:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

The following has been transcluded from Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/YTCracker (3rd nomination):

Belated courtesy notice
Sockpuppet investigations/Ytcracker. Best, &rarr;  Dylan 620  (Toolbox Alpha, Beta) 16:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.