Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yama Umi Do


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 00:24, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Yama Umi Do

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Article about a supposed martial art. However, the two references are the same and point to a website that does not mention Yama Umi Do. Possibly a hoax, definitely lacking any reliable sources. Clearly both promotional and not neutrally worded. Prod was removed without comment, so bringing here for discussion. Sparthorse (talk) 22:16, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Seems pretty straightforward. MikeWazowski (talk) 23:40, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 00:53, 13 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete. I don't believe this is a hoax: Googling (sensei "mark wagner" martial) brings up several websites that mention this, often with the variant spelling "Yami Umi Do", which is mentioned in the article.  However, it seems to fall well short of WP:GNG: the sources that I've found are mostly subpages of the Golden Dragon Dojo website, e.g. "Tsunami Truth", or subpages of ICMAUA, e.g. this one (do a string search for "wagner" to find references).  Neither of these qualifies as a reliable independent source; note that the main ICMAUA page states that members of the organizations can "publish your MA [martial arts?] bio in 'Who is Who'...", with no suggestion of peer review.  A Google search for ("imperial karate handbook" wagner) turns up exactly one hit: this WP article.  There's a fairly clear notability failure here.  Ammodramus (talk) 04:40, 13 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Do not Delete. 'Mark Wagner passed away in 2001. The author his trying to honor the style of Karate he created by describing and quoting from Sensei Wagner Directly.  Perhaps Wikepedia is not the right location for this purpose?  I no longer have a copy of his handbook but I am confident that students of his do. I do have photographs from both Dojo's which prove he had the studios however I realize that is not sufficient to support the Style of Karate I am addressing here.  I would appreciate having enough time to adds some more research as all of this happened, including his death, before the internet or Google were as popular and useful as it is today. Mark Wagner was a student of Dr. Sachio Ashida (at Brockport, N.Y.), an Olympic Coach at the 1976 Games in Montreal, whom I have met in person. Here is a link to an article about him http://judo.teamusa.org/news/article/13725 and to State University of New york At Brockport. I am hoping to contact his daughter, who is a martial artist, to get more information on Yama Umi Do style. It is possible that in the smaller martial arts arenas this is the only place that this is an important style. HOWEVER, just because a style is developed and used in a small local and not on a World level, this  does not make it any less valuable or unique.


 * I would be happy to change the word to a more neutral angle suggesting the style or similar. CourageandFaith (talk) 16:24, 13 January 2012 (UTC) — CourageandFaith (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * I'm afraid that you're right: Wikipedia is not the right location for this purpose. A specific Wikipedia policy, to be found at WP:MEMORIAL, says that this is not a place to create memorials for deceased friends, acquaintances, etc.  Nor is the importance of the subject a criterion for including or excluding it from Wikipedia: obviously, importance is subjective.  The criterion in question is notability, which you'll find discussed at WP:GNG.  To satisfy it, you'd need to find significant in-depth coverage of the subject by independent sources.  A personal communication from a daughter, a book self-published by Wagner, the ICMAUA website (which apparently allows members to publish their biographies without any sort of fact-checking or review), and the Golden Dragon Dojo website wouldn't satisfy this criterion.  To satisfy it, you'd need to find something like extensive coverage in a widely-circulated martial-arts magazine: and that's extensive coverage, not a brief paragraph or inclusion in a list.  If you can't establish notability in that sense, then with no reflection on the importance or unimportance of the subject, it can't be included in Wikipedia.  Ammodramus (talk) 17:56, 13 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - Not a WP:HOAX but Article clearly lacks both independent sources and fails WP:NOTE. FWIW the correct Japanese pronunciation for the name of this style should be Sankaido and not "Yama Umi Do" - not that it matters here. Editing language for WP:NPOV will not correct the lack of notability. Jun Kayama 20:55, 13 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete The references are not valid, not a notable subject.Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 04:13, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

In reponse to Ammodramus: I was reffering to the daughter of Dr. Ashida who us world renowned and was Sensei Wagners First teacher and mentor for many years. Also I was not trying to memorialize Sensei Wagner I was trying to preserve the martial arts style, if it is rightfully its own style. I understand that the article should be deleted on this basis and will continue my research for support of that.

Thank you for your time and this experience. Interesting to note the referance to Sankaido. I will have to look into that. Who deleted the entry? CourageandFaith (talk) 06:21, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Article has not been deleted as of this Comment. Many martial arts styles founded by non-Japanese attempt to generate Japanese names or titles which do not conform to the rules of the language; "Yama Umi Do" is gibberish in Japanese. FWIW, in Japanese the title of Sensei comes after the name and not before if it is to conform to Japanese grammar. Also a number of historically significant styles (i.e. Meiji Restoration era) and teachers in Japan proper do not meet the WP:NOTE criterion for inclusion even in JP Wikipedia due simply to a lack of sufficient source material in print or online. Wikipedia should not be used to "preserve" the memory of a martial arts style. Any such attempt belongs in a well-respected trade publication. Jun Kayama 22:29, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.