Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yasmeen Tahir


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Liz Read! Talk! 17:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Yasmeen Tahir

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Non-notable actor, possible mercenary work. Most of the sources are mere mentions/name-drops of her, being focused on other members of her family instead. Urdu!VoA is a prose-style interview with her based on the automated translation, two sources are about being given a non-exclusive reward. Draftification attempts led to a move-war; see WP:AN/I. —Jéské Couriano v^&lowbar;^v  threads critiques 16:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * In light of Jeraxmoira's efforts to bring this article up to par, I am Withdrawing this AfD. Any issues in re COI can be handled at other venues. —Jéské Couriano v^&lowbar;^v  threads critiques 17:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers, Women, Radio,  and Pakistan.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 16:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep: has received the Sitara-i-Imtiaz, which can be considered a "well-known and significant award or honour", so that she meets WP:ANYBIO imv. - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank)  16:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And as for the rest of the sourcing? Being notable is not enough here; BLP applies as well. A look for sources isn't turning up much for me (strings: ["yasmin tahir" pakistan], ["yasmeen tahir" pakistan]). —Jéské Couriano v^&lowbar;^v  threads critiques 16:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Being notable is enough for being notable imv.:D- My, oh my! (Mushy Yank)  16:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Not where biographies of living persons are concerned. Literally everything in the article that could reasonably be challenged must be sourced, and the award is the only thing that can be sourced based on what I'm seeing. An "article" that just states she won an award without any further context isn't really much of a stub, let alone an article. —Jéské Couriano v^&lowbar;^v  threads critiques 16:52, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * But that is not the case, is it? Again, I'm leaving it at that and will stand by my Keep. Thank you for your time, - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank)  16:54, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If we're allowing BLPs based on such awards, I suppose many WP:ROTM personalities could manage to get a stand-alone BLP then. — Saqib  ( talk  I  contribs ) 20:33, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete: For the record - I draftified the BLP because it was in poor shape, filled with WP:OR using WP:FICTREF. However, reverted my draftification without addressing the WP:OR issues, which escalated into a move war (not initiated by me though). This BLP appears to be a case of WP:UPE because it was created by an editor, who has a notoriously bad history of creating BLPs on non-notable subjects using WP:FICTREF. Anyone arguing for keeping this based on WP:ANYBIO # 1 must understand that there is no consensus that ANYBIO #1 supersedes GNG.. Clearly, the subject fails to meet the requirements of GNG and WP:NBIO as well. —  Saqib  ( talk  I  contribs ) 16:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Jeraxmoira expanded the BLP since it was AfD'd, but I still don't see it meeting the GNG and since there's no consensus that ANYBIO#1 overrides GNG, so in order to preserve Jeraxmoira's work, I'd like to suggest we Redirect it to Naeem Tahir per @S0091, — Saqib  ( talk  I  contribs ) 18:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 *  Comment: Stating that I had not tried to honestly address the issues mentioned in the tags then on the page (and judged that they could reasonably appear addressed; even if they were perhaps not completely addressed) is at best exaggerated (see my edit, edit summary, the tags themselves (different of those currently on the page), the state of the page then and page history) and stating that there was a move-war is clearly misleading (see article TP, where this was explained. Thank you. I will not make any further comments here, the same way I did not reply any further on that page and stopped editing it, for various reasons, including lack of time. - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank)  16:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Final comment, though: interesting diff when one knows this is 1) a standard section of ALL articles where they can bee added 2) sourced 3) a major claim at notability :D...- My, oh my! (Mushy Yank)  16:48, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Mushy Yank, ...the same way I did not reply any further on that page and stopped editing it, But your continued participation here, here and even here contradict your earlier statement of disengagement. — Saqib  ( talk  I  contribs ) 16:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No, they don't, not that it matters. Read me with more attention; but thank you for this comment all the same. I'm gone, though, this time, - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank)  16:58, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. She is a well know a radio artist. The government of pakistan awarded her and she also worked in a few dramas which i added but you removed it.(BeauSuzanne (talk) 16:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC))
 * BeauSuzanne, Your argument that she received an award (WP:ANYBIO# 1) has already been countered above and your claim that she also worked in a few dramas doesn't really justifies a standalone BLP and is not convincing either, especially if the roles were not major. And as you yourself mentioned, that she's a radio artist, which also makes it difficult for her to meet the NACTOR. — Saqib  ( talk  I  contribs ) 17:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Aren't radio artist notable she has been workin since 1958 which is in the source too and has worked more than three decades.(BeauSuzanne (talk) 17:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC))
 * Longevity does not matter for notability. What matters is the available sources discussing the subject, and frankly outside of the award there aren't any. —Jéské Couriano</i> v^&lowbar;^v  threads critiques 17:56, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete: wedding photos and discussions of her spouse are all I find... The award could suggest notability, but the sourcing isn't there. Oaktree b (talk) 20:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete winning a minor civilian honor as discussed above is not really enough for notability from WP:ANYBIO without other references. Allan Nonymous (talk) 20:35, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Allan Nonymous the award is one of the highest national honors bestowed by Pakistan. In the year she received it, there were only 36 recipients and she was one of the two females. It may not be enough to establish notability but please do not call minor. S0091 (talk) 20:35, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * S0091, We've doubts about the credibility of such awards; they seem to be given based on personal connections. The same year, this award was also given to someone merely for performing their job, without any significant achievement.<span id="Saqib:1720510863248:WikipediaFTTCLNArticles_for_deletion/Yasmeen_Tahir" class="FTTCmt"> — Saqib  ( talk  I  contribs ) 07:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Saqib, will you please provide evidence of your claim that Sitara-i-Imtiaz is paid? The source you attached never supported such claims. Will you care to prove that Yasmeen Tahir got this award due to a personal connection? 2404:3100:140E:5180:1:0:90E3:E5DC (talk) 09:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * IP - I'm simply pointing out that the credibility of this award isn't strong, so it's not inappropriate to classify it as a minor civilian award.<span id="Saqib:1720517175989:WikipediaFTTCLNArticles_for_deletion/Yasmeen_Tahir" class="FTTCmt"> — Saqib  ( talk  I  contribs ) 09:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Saqib Do you have any proof that these awards credibility is not strong or they are minor? Please provide evidence that support your claims. 2404:3100:144D:4E4:1:0:A80F:2CCB (talk) 10:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think I've stated my position and while I don't need to provide evidence for everything I say, but, if you insist, you can refer to this, this and this, which says In the past, numerous Pakistani TV, film, music and literature personalities have been given these awards, while others struggled to even get nominated. Many complained of the lack of a stringent criterion and claimed favouritism as well.. If you don't want to trust me, that's your choice. However, you should consider trusting these sources and the former senior cabinet minister who have made the same statements as mine, about these civil awards. I prefer not to engage with WP:LOUTSOCK, so I won't argue further.<span id="Saqib:1720520932388:WikipediaFTTCLNArticles_for_deletion/Yasmeen_Tahir" class="FTTCmt"> — Saqib  ( talk  I  contribs ) 10:28, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Not a single source claims that Yasmeen Tahir got an award due to personal connections or that she was not awarded as per merit neither they mentioned Sitara-i-Imtiaz is fake/minor. You are throwing fictious sources that does'nt support your claims. 2404:3100:1402:FFDF:1:0:9155:36D0 (talk) 10:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Right and most awards are criticized for overlooking others who are arguably more deserving, the political nature of them, etc. See Nobel Prize controversies and this NYT article about the Presidential Medal of Freedom in the US. Either way, Sitara-i-Imtiaz is one the highest awards and it is not given out like candy with hundreds of recipients each year like some. S0091 (talk) 15:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * S0091, Allow me to clarify my remarks. I do not deny that it is one of the highest civilian awards in the country. Perhaps my wording was incorrect. What I intended to say is that it is referred to as minor in the sense that it lacks credibility and I provided sources to support my claims, and the more I research it, the more I find opinions aligning with mine. [Granting civil awards to minions, crooks and fraudsters has eroded the prestige and value of these awards.] That said, it's still an honor to receive such an award, even if its credibility has diminished. However, basing a BLP solely on this award doesn't make sense to me at all.<span id="Saqib:1720541416368:WikipediaFTTCLNArticles_for_deletion/Yasmeen_Tahir" class="FTTCmt"> — Saqib  ( talk  I  contribs ) 16:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Well I think we can all agree Yasmeen Tahir is not one those crooks or fraudsters. :) That opinion piece is about civil awards in general, of which there are several, with specific focus on higher education and one example regarding the Tamgha-e-Imtiaz.  Also clearly he agrees the award has prestige and value; otherwise it couldn't be eroded.  As I state above I am not saying the award in and of itself establishes notability; only that is not a minor award. S0091 (talk) 16:51, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Recipent of Sitara-i-Imtiaz, third-highest honour and civilian award in the State of Pakistan. 2404:3100:140E:5180:1:0:90E3:E5DC (talk) 09:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC) — 2404:3100:140E:5180:1:0:90E3:E5DC (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * The issue is that's the only thing there exists sources for. Nobody's been able to find any usable sources for literally anything else, making an article on her fairly questionable. —<i style="color: #1E90FF;">Jéské Couriano</i> v^&lowbar;^v  threads critiques 15:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Sitara-i-Imtiaz : I have tried to find at least a couple secondary reliable sources with in-depth coverage about her but everything is brief mentions. Within those mentions it is clear to me she has had an impact but it's not enough to establish notability.  However, sources could come to light in the future so I at least want to maintain the work that has been done which a redirect will accomplish.  I do think the title should changed to Yasmin Tahir, though.  S0091 (talk) 17:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Changing to keep per Jeraxmoira's improvements and additional findings along with mine. It is clear Tahir/Tahir's work has been written about so sources exist but the issues are access to sources and transliteration. S0091 (talk) 18:34, 10 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep: Most of the sources exist in the keyphrase "یاسمین طاہر". The initial concerns about sourcing have been significantly fixed now. Many of the latest sources added are not mere passing mentions and multiple sources verify particular claims. Everything in the article is sourced and the concerns about OR and UPE have been fixed as I have contributed to almost 55.5% of the article's content, completely rewriting it forward and none were referred from the 4 July version of this article.


 * There is much more information available now beyond wedding photos and content related to Naeem Tahir which were also one of the previous concerns. This article cannot be redirected or merged to a suitable target, i.e Naeem Tahir, Imtiaz Ali Taj or Sitara-i-Imtiaz as it has extensive coverage from her early life till now, which will be lost or cannot be fit into another article without disparaging it. With the current level of sourcing, the subject passes WP:BASIC and WP:ANYBIO.


 * Per Sitara-i-Imtiaz - It recognizes individuals who have made an "especially meritorious contribution to the security or national interests of Pakistan, world peace, cultural or other significant public endeavours". I believe her continued contributions from Indo-Pakistani war of 1965 until now is what made her eligible for Sitara-i-Imtiaz. The amount of coverage she has now is surprising for someone who is notable for her work during and after the war, when the internet did not exist. This article should be kept as a significant amount of coverage exists in offline books, local newspapers and other magazines popular during that time. Adding that to what we have online will easily make her notable. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 20:20, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your efforts, Jeraxmoira. How easy/possible would it be for a given person to find offline sources about her, assuming they'll mainly be in Pakistan? —<i style="color: #1E90FF;">Jéské Couriano</i> v^&lowbar;^v  threads critiques 20:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I have no idea how or where they'll be able to find it in Pakistan. Most probably in a renowned public library I guess. My point is that the subject will pass GNG easily with what we may find offline, which is just additional to what we have online and I believe what we already have online/in the article is enough to establish notability via SNG. FWIW, her name has a lot of hits in the Urdu Digest monthly magazine, but I haven't used them because of poor translation output. If I am right, significant coverage is not necessary for someone who passes WP:ANYBIO, so I think we have addressed all the issues here. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 11:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Jeraxmoira can try Yasmin Imtiaz in Urdu, her name before she was married and see what you get? Just curious because I am getting snippet hits in English like this and this. S0091 (talk) 17:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Jeraxmoira, Thanks for your efforts in expanding this BLP However I must highlight that the majority of Urdu sources you cited are not even considered RS for BLPs and I'm unsure if we can use them for WP:V much less to establish GNG.<span id="Saqib:1720634573314:WikipediaFTTCLNArticles_for_deletion/Yasmeen_Tahir" class="FTTCmt"> — Saqib  ( talk  I  contribs ) 18:02, 10 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep; the sources added by Jeraxmoira are impressive. Transliteration makes searching difficult -- Yasmeen, Yasmin, Yasmine could all be used in English -- and the fact there aren't sources in English doesn't mean this person isn't notable in Pakistan. Valereee (talk) 11:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:HEY: great work by . Bearian (talk) 15:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.