Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yiğit Kolat


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete per WP:BLPREQUESTDELETE (taking the IP at face value); there is very rough consensus that the article does not meet notability anyways. Meeting WP:COMPOSER does not guarantee an article either way. ansh 666 04:19, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Yiğit Kolat

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the only claims to notability as a muscien are as being a finalist in a couple of competitions. WP:COMPOSER expressly states "Has written a composition that has won (or in some cases been given a second or other place) in a major music competition not established expressly for newcomers." this is I am afraid a case of WP:TOOSOON. The other sources are not sufficient to show he meets WP:GNG Dom from Paris (talk) 17:04, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

This article was written by a student at a major university studying Kolat's work. Kolat was selected by the professor of the course as a topic--the composer did not contribute to either the class nor the Wiki entry. While it is poorly written (and certainly deserves a good, it seems extreme to label it as a case of  WP:TOOSOON considering the number of composers and artists with pages and less recognition than Kolat. The Dutilleux and Takemitsu awards are among the largest international awards for composers. He won first prize in the Takemitsu. Template:expert-subject should be considered before dismissing major awards in the field.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sea2nyc (talk • contribs) 02:11, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It is not the writing that I am concerned about bybthe fact that the article does not prove that he meets Wikipedia standards of notability for inclusion. Concerning the Dutilleux prize I could find very little mention of it. It is . composition prize held in a very small French town with a 1st prize of €5000. It is not mentioned on the WP pages for the town and the composer neither in French nor English. Are you sure it is amongst the largest awards of this type? The Takemitsu award is for young composers and the criteria specifically exclude this kind of award. Dom from Paris (talk) 07:17, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Your feedback is fine. Yes, the Dutilleux is held in a small town and the monetary prize is small. However, it is a sought out prize both judged and held by major contemporary composers. Within the small field of contemporary composition, it is a major honor. Most major competitions are for composers under 35--composers who have, in most cases, finished their doctoral studies: see Gaudeamus International Composers Award--which is included for many Wiki entries as the only major award the composer has won. The Takemitsu is a major honor for both the finalists and the judges. If you do not have an expertise in the field, I don't think you can adequately assess the level of these honors. If you did have the expertise, you would know both awards by name. My credentials: musicologist specializing in 20th and 21st-century music."the composer neither in French nor English" I'm confused by this statement: Henri Dutilleux French composer.
 * you're right I may not have been clear but what I am saying that there is no mention of this prize that you are saying is a major prize on either the composer's page or the town's page here on Wikipedia. And that goes for the French and English versions. I could find very little on the web to attest to its importance. Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia that covers all and any subjects matter and there are notability guidelines that are relatively clear even for non experts (by the way you should avoid making personal comments about other editors as you have no idea where their expertise lies over and above what they chose to write). Please read WP:NMUSIC and try and find the sources that meet the criteria. It says major prizes with the exception of those for young composers. You may not like that but those are the criteria. This deletion discussion is sorted in such a way that those people interested in music related discussions will be informed about it and it is possible that some will back up your claims about the prize. If they do it will have to be supported by sources that show that this is a major prize as per the criteria I think. Dom from Paris (talk) 19:00, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't mean to split hairs, but #4 under the criteria says "Has written a composition that has won (or in some cases been given a second or other place) in a major music competition not established expressly for newcomers." There is a semantic issue here--"newcomer" is different than an age limit, no? It does not say "with the exception of those for young composers." We aren't discussing a prize given to 15 year olds trying to write their first orchestral work; 35 is hardly a newcomer age--and just happens to be the cut off for this competition. Again, I refer you to Gaudeamus International Composers Award which is a important award given to those under 35. So if we are discussing the issue is the age limit, composers who have pages using the Gaudeamus as their only major award must be scrutinized as well, no see:Sampo Haapamäki? For the record, I don't think either of these articles deserves deletion. As for the Dutilleux--the internet is not crawling with sources on this award. It was established in 1990 by people in their 70s, and its presence online is not of importance to the award itself--unlike Gaudeamus, which has a very good marketing campaign. One must look at previous winners and their accomplishments post-award to decipher the importance of the award itself. I do not have any problems with either the rules or the criteria and am sorry if I offended you (and I will be careful in the future), but Wikipedia has encouraged academics to engage with this forum, which I am doing, bringing my own expertise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sea2nyc (talk • contribs) 21:40, 24 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris (talk) 17:08, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris (talk) 17:08, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Don't worry I wasn't insulted but as you are a new user I was just giving some friendly advice about etiquette here on Wikipedia. We try and avoid personal comments if we can. Look I really don't know if this prize is usually taken into consideration or not. I have left a message on WikiProject Composers talk page to ask for participation. BTW that would be a good project to join if you are interested in bringing your experience to good use here. Anyway probably better for us to let other editors join the discussion and see what they think. CheersDom from Paris (talk) 07:18, 25 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete. simply doesn't meet WP:NOTABLE. ==Smerus (talk) 08:47, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Cautious keep. Sea2nyc makes an important point by referring to the actual text of WP:COMPOSER - "young" is certainly not synonymous with "newcomer", in this case aged 31 and already three years beyond his first competition prize (interestingly when he was a actual newcomer he won 2nd prize in a competition that has no age limit). I have not found enough on the standing of the Dutilleux competition to comment on that, but I find a reaonable amount of general coverage in French national media in recent years; the Takemitsu prize is more generally known, though I suspect the coverage is stronger in Japanese sources, which I cannot easily search.  Davidships (talk) 02:37, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Davidships do you have an opinion on the Takemitsu prize and whether it qualifies as a major prize as per the guidelines? Dom from Paris (talk) 06:33, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * We know that "major music competition" is not defined but, on the face of it, the Takemitsu prize is highly prestigious: it was established by the most internationally famous Japanese composer of art music (he had set it in motion and planned its first three years before his death in 1996), all the judges have been leading contemporary composers from around the world (every one with a significant WP article) and it is supported by Japan's senior classical orchestra. And of course it is notable, having its own article here for nearly a decade. That all adds up to "major" in my book.  If I were a young composer in the early years of my professional career, winning such a competition would undoubtedly be highly prized. Davidships (talk) 16:58, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26  (spin me / revolutions) 16:38, 28 March 2018 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, J04n(talk page) 16:38, 5 April 2018 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 13:42, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Toru Takemitsu Composition Award. There's very little in terms of third-party reliable sourcing about Kolat aside from the competition awards, so the merits of this deletion discussion have to fall to whether or not the Toru Takemitsu Composition Award and a 2nd place award at the Concours Dutilleux constitute major awards in the context of the notability guideline. And there, I'm going to have to say that, no, I don't believe they do. To start, I don't think the Concours Dutilleux is the sort of competition that was intended by the parenthetical bit about second place awards. While it may be prestigious locally, and I'm certain that it's an honor for its participants, it is a small event with very little third-party coverage. I read French well enough to go digging for French sources, and there's not a lot out there, in any language, that would be considered independent sourcing. We don't have an article on it, and I don't think it's notable under our standards (the French Wikipedia article is entirely unreferenced); even if it were marginally notable here, that's surely not a "major competition" of a level such that 2nd place confers notability. So we are down to whether the Toru Takemitsu Competition win is sufficient. That's certainly an interesting event. It's not a juried competition in the traditional sense, but rather awards are assigned by a single celebrity judge (and who isn't bound by normal award scoring; Kolat is in fact one of two "First Prize" recipients that year). None of the sources in its current article are acceptable (the Australian Music Centre source is an entry in a very long, indiscriminate collection of music awards, and the rest are not independent of the source), but there is sufficient coverage in reliable sources that a compliant article on the competition could be written. But I don't think a shared win at a single non-juried competition is what that notability guideline intended, in the absence of reliable, third-party coverage of the composer himself. Accordingly, I'd support a redirect to the notable competition's article, where Kolat is already included in the list of winners. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 14:59, 13 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete. Subject of the article here. Thanks to all for your time. After reading the discussion, I must say that the focus on the competitions is rather unbalanced. Non-vernacular new music composition is primarily an academic field, because of that, the consideration of a composer’s notability should always be based on her contributions to her field, not on the awards. Awards and recognitions in arts often fail to function as measures of contribution. Certain influential composers to whose music I refer on daily basis have only a few awards, or no awards whatsoever in their bios (and most of them don’t have Wiki pages as well). Others, despite of their impressive lists of prizes, grants, and commissions, fail to spark any genuine artistic inspiration and/or scholarly discussion with their works. That said, I do not claim any notable contribution to my field, that is a decision to be made by my colleagues and musicologists. However, if I were ever appear in an encyclopedic source, I’d prefer to do so with notable contributions to my field, not with a list of awards. Racehorses should be subjects of purely award-based discussions, not artists. Please delete this article. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:602:8500:8253:448E:44CA:1378:5C67 (talk) 14:58, 17 April 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.