Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Young Rebel Goombas (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Independent notability of the band neither asserted nor demonstrated. Nothing has changed since the last debate in August. Mackensen (talk) 12:20, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Young Rebel Goombas
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See the first nomination for details, but basically I nominated this originally because the only way this doesn't fail WP:MUSIC is that two members allegedly won an Emmy. The article was deleted because nobody could find any evidence that they actually had. The article's creator then forwarded a press release to the closing admin showing the they had won a "New York Emmy", not a regular one (although the article was misleading in this regard). Apparently there are regional Emmys as well as national ones. So the question now becomes: does a regional Emmy count as a "major music award" for the purposes of WP:MUSIC, and, if not, does this band qualify under any other criteria there? I think the answer is "no" to both. &mdash; Chowbok  ☠  16:09, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete The way it's worded, it looks like the individuals won the award, not the band. The band does not inherit the notability of the individuals in this case. DarkAudit (talk) 17:23, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

The National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences Emmy awards are legitimate no matter what region they are awarded from - whether it be primetime, daytime, New York, Chicago, etc. "Farmbooy", the film that Mallardi and Saccente scored and received the Emmy for, received national public television distribution through the NETA. The band that these two composers lead, Young Rebel Goombas, is very popular within the trop-rock world, nationwide. Their music is in regular rotation on all of the trop-rock radio stations, air and internet, including the WBWC out of Ohio (where the syndicated program "Island Time Radio Show" is recorded). This program holds an annual trop-rock awards program - and the band won "album of the year" in 2008.greggrennie|17 November 2009
 * It's not a question of legitimacy, it's one of notability. And unlike the national and daytime Emmy awards, the New York Emmys get almost no mainstream media coverage. I doubt very many people have even heard of them. Even the main Emmy award site doesn't list them. The only reference to the winners anywhere on the internet is on a Microsoft Word document buried on the New York chapter's website.&mdash; Chowbok  ☠  20:17, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Does it not seem reasonable that people would be interested in knowing that the two main members of the band are Emmy winners? greggrennie 17:43, 17 November 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by GREGGRENNIE (talk • contribs)
 * The point is the band did not win the award. The individuals did. So in the end, the band is not an Emmy-winning band. DarkAudit (talk) 18:47, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The way I read WP:MUSIC, winning/being nominated for a major music award satisfies the criteria (#8), and the two individuals won the award. Also, according to #6, an ensemble including two or more notable artists is itself notable. Therefore, the band is notable.  BUT, would we consider an Emmy a music award, or does it matter? Ivanvector (talk) 18:55, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The band did not win an Emmy, Grammy, or Oscar, regional or otherwise. The accomplishments of the individual members must be considered separately from the band. DarkAudit (talk) 20:11, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason why the Emmy can not be mentioned. It is part of their history. The band already qualifies for listing under other criteria outlined here WP:MUSIC.--GREGGRENNIE (talk) 20:14, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

The article makes no claim that the band won the Emmy. However, the two main members did and two of the other members performed on the soundtrack. Four out of the five band members were involved. It is the same writers, the same musicians, the same publishing company, the same label. This band has thousands of fans in the U.S., Europe and Asia.

Also, the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences has a category of musical composition as part of the Emmy award program - so an Emmy can be (and often is) a music award. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GREGGRENNIE (talk • —Preceding undated comment added 19:04, 17 November 2009 (UTC).
 * Perhaps so. Still it seems a stretch to say that a New York Emmy is a "major music award". &mdash; Chowbok  ☠  20:18, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

An Emmy award is an Emmy award no matter what chapter it comes from and a musical composition Emmy is still an Emmy award for music. It is awarded by the same Academy in just a different venue.--GREGGRENNIE (talk) 20:39, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

And... I am writing this as a member of the Academy and as an Emmy judge - the past two years.--GREGGRENNIE (talk) 21:07, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete while it seems some of the members might be seperately (and marginally) notable for activities completely unrelated to the band, that notability doesn't magically rub off on the band itself. Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  19:21, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

The criteria says independently notable musicians. So the band does qualify. Also, Richie Cannata is hardly a marginal musician. He is a Grammy winning performer that has been on dozens of major hits spanning the past three decades.--GREGGRENNIE (talk) 20:04, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Source? I can't find a reference to "Richie Cannata" anywhere on the Grammy website.&mdash; Chowbok  ☠  20:21, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Richie Cannata received a Grammy for his work in Billy Joel's band. Cannata played on every major hit Joel had between 1976 and 1981. After that he recorded with Elton John, The Beach Boys, Bon Jovi, Gregg Allman, Donald Fagen, Steve Winwood, Linda Ronstadt, Roseann Cash, Max Weinberg, Michael Bolton, Rick James and dozens of others. He is a legendary saxophone player. his website is http://www.richiecannata.com.--GREGGRENNIE (talk) 20:39, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  — J04n(talk page) 01:18, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. It is true that having two notable members makes a band notable, but this band has only one, Richie Cannata. Richie Saccente is not notable, and this search does not suggest we should consider him as such. Winning a regional Emmy, and we can discuss how glorious this is, is probably not enough in the eyes of most editors (including this one). Now, then, considering that the band did not win the Emmy, we can't add that possible notability to their account. In other words, the requirements in WP:BAND are not met. Drmies (talk) 01:24, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I have deleted the reference to the Emmy award - even though it is a legitimate piece of the history of this band and contributes to the notability of the members. The band has a large following in the trop-rock community and I will address the objection regarding "notable members" again in the next few days.--GREGGRENNIE (talk) 06:36, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't delete that. It could be a notable award.  Need to see how much press coverage it gets by using Google news search.   D r e a m Focus  01:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * 518 Google news results, so yeah, I'd say the award is notable do to coverage in major newspapers.  D r e a m Focus  01:58, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep I read the information there.  Reading what various band members have done, they do appear quite notable.  The group is notable, because its members are notable.  You have people who have performed with major acts, and done quite a bit on their own, joining together to make a band, so its notable.   D r e a m Focus  01:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * KEEP: I am an attorney. I am familiar with the musicians and their distinctive accomplishments as Emmy award winners for the scoring of the nationally broadcast documentary, Farmboy. Also, I have served as an elected member of the Board of Directors of the National Academy of Arts & Sciences- NY, which is the regional chapter bestowing the coveted EMMY award for the NY television broadcasting area. I have also served as Chair of the "television academy's" membership committee, NATAS-NY. The commentaries reflect a misunderstanding and / or unfamiliarity with the EMMY awards process and the distinctive accomplishment reflected by her award winners. I will consult with the band members and will provide a commentary for inclusion of the Wikipedia article as submitted. I expect to provide an informative commentary on the Emmy awards and the band's public distinction in the public eye. Ray Oliver, Esq. RAYOLIVERESQ http://oliverlawyers.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by RAYOLIVERESQ (talk • contribs) 19:02, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Please note that this is only this user's fourth contribution since signing up a year ago; the third was also related to this deletion, and the first two were him writing his biography for his user page.&mdash; Chowbok  ☠  21:37, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

NOTE:(chowbok) The number of contributions made to Wikipedia have nothing to do with my qualifications and past positions in media and with the Emmys organization. The number of my contributions has everything to do with my unfamiliarity with Wikipedia and its requirements to have an article meet requirements for posting. Wikipedia's programming is not "intuitive." Entries take a significant amount of time in discerning what needs to be done. Even, for example, the failure to "sign" a comment with 4 tildes. It was technically difficult for me to post my comment. Now, as I stated there is a general misunderstanding of the "distinctive" Emmy awards process and organization. Numerous celebrated media and tv personalities are part of the organization and have won Emmy awards. The band members are distinctive and publicly renowned for their achievements in music as recognized by the Emmy judging panels. Note that all New York entries and nominations are judged "outside" of the New York television broadcast area. NY entries are generally judged by distinguished panel of judges in Chicago, Los Angeles and the Dallas Ft Worth broadcast market. This system preserves the integrity of voting and ensures the distinction of an Emmy award. The musicians under review have achieved the highest standard recognized by the television academy. Lastly, the earlier "autobot" (?) deletion is the result of not knowing what needed to be done in order to have the entry published or even get to the link for posting. This has nothing to do with my extensive experience in entertainment law, participation with the television academy and networking with colleagues in media. RAYOLIVERESQ RAYOLIVERESQ (talk) 23:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The musicians included in the band have achieved the highest standard of "excellence" in media as judged by a distinguished panel of judges in Chicago. Judges include past Emmy award winners and heads of the largest studios, tv networks and celebrated actors and personalities. The media coverage of the NY television Emmy awards is contractually placed with the television network that offers the most beneficial return to the television academy. The broadcast contract is awarded to the network that offers the highest return to the television academy for broadcast rights to the "celebrated" EMMY tm awards ceremony. Ray Oliver, Esq. RAYOLIVERESQ (talk) 23:14, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Note: The assertion that the broadcast of the Emmy tm awards ceremony is not performed by a national network is misfocused. There are more than 42 broadcast licensing rights issued to cover the awards ceremony as a "newsworthy" event. Television coverage of the entire ceremony is deliberated at NATAS-NY offices by the board of directors and granted to the best monetary and sponsorship offer made. As stated, I have served on the NATAS-NY board of directors and chaired the television academy membership committee. Ray Oliver, Esq. RAYOLIVERESQ (talk) 23:25, 19 November 2009 (UTC) Note that I also served as legal counsel to the television academy for investigation, prosecution and licensing of the EMMY tm logo and trademark. Ray Oliver, Esq. RAYOLIVERESQ (talk) 23:38, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

It must also be noted that besides being an Emmy recipient, S. Cosmo Mallardi is a Broadway conductor and has music directed several iconic Broadway shows throughout the U.S. and in Asia. Music directing a work by Elton John in the Asian theater, as well as producing the official Japanese cast album of AIDA is an honor, a privilege, and most notable. --GREGGRENNIE (talk) 13:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep As previously mentioned, members of this band are notable. The Emmy award received by two of the members is also notable and lends to the notability of those members.--GREGGRENNIE (talk) 16:09, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep My name is Dirk Burhans; I am the author of CRUNCH, A History of the Great American Potato Chip (University of Wisconsin Press, 2008). I have known one of the band members for four years and am aware that the band has a wide following. As long as it is clear that the band members won the Emmys, and not the band, I can't see why there should be a problem with the Emmy mention. I have checked the New York Emmy Award page ( http://www.nynatas.org/en/cms/?843 -- see link at bottom for 2007 awardees) and found that two of the band members did win a 2007 Emmy for Musical Composition and Arrangement. Debating the significance of a New York Emmy versus a "regular" Emmy seems to be a quibbling point. --Burhansd (talk) 16:32, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment The text of the winners list says CRAFT SPECIALTY: Musical Composition/Arrangement: Farmboy. August 31, 2006. (WSKG). Richie Saccente, S. Cosmo Mallardi, Jacob Gorst, Composers. Who is Jacob Gorst?  Is he a member of the band? If not it looks like this was a separate collaboration between three musicians not an effort by the Young Rebel Goombas. NtheP (talk) 16:51, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Jake Gorst is a co-writer on both Young Rebel Goombas songs and cuts from Farmboy. Search http://www.ascap.com/ace/.  He is also the owner of Jonamac Productions, the music publishing company handling YRG's music.  Again, the point is that Saccente and Mallardi won Emmys - which makes them notable as composers and musicians. Young Rebel Goombas includes several notable members, making them qualify for listing.--GREGGRENNIE (talk) 17:36, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Please note that the message above is User:Burhansd's first contribution to the site.&mdash; Chowbok  ☠  22:28, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

To hopefully clear up the confusion on the part of various contributors to this discussion I have moved the Emmy reference to follow the biographical information on Saccente and Mallardi and deleted the Awards subheading. This is the second time I have made a change to this in the past few days. The first time somebody reverted the text back to the way it had been previously.--GREGGRENNIE (talk) 17:44, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You and others seem to be under the impression that we're debating whether the Emmy information should be included in the article. This is not the case. There is no question that if the article is kept, the Emmy stuff should be in the article, and you didn't have to delete it before. The question here is whether the article should be kept at all. The Emmys are relevant in figuring out whether they qualify to have a Wikipedia article, that's all.


 * That is not the case. I recognize what the overall objection is and am actually quite surprised by the acrimony voiced in some of these comments.  Mr. Oliver specifically addressed the Emmy issue because he is an attorney for the NATAS-NY and some of the comments made here did indeed reflect a lack of knowledge on that topic and were misleading.  The main objection appears to be whether any of the members of this band are "notable" enough to make the listing worthy of being included on this site.  This also surprises me because this band has a large fan base and is a significant part of a rapidly growing genre.  Several members of the band have long established careers in different avenues of the music industry - from mainstream pop to Broadway theater - and have been recognized and awarded by notable organizations in their respective fields.  That fact alone makes the band qualify according to the guidelines outlined at WP:MUSIC.--GREGGRENNIE (talk) 01:22, 24 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom; even if New York Emmys are considered 'major', this band does not inherit notability from its band members (who in turn do not inherit notability from their Emmy-winning band). Whether above users are attorneys, friends of the band, or Robert Christgau is also irrelevant; the band fails WP:BAND notability. -M.Nelson (talk) 07:24, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per the lack of reliable sources. A Google News Archive search returns no results. A Google search returns unreliable websites such as Amazon.com, Twitter, Myspace, Facebook, etc. There is no indication that this band passes WP:MUSIC. I agree with the nom and the previous "delete" opinions which believe that a local Emmy rewarded to two members of the band (but not the band itself) do not establish notability. As to the number of notable members of this band, I concur with the argument advanced by . Cunard (talk) 09:41, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.