Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yves Carbonne


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. X clamation point  05:55, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Yves Carbonne

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The subject of this article is a musician whose notability is not established (I'm not familiar in detail with the current requirements of WP:MUSIC, but I doubt it passes that standard). There are no references, and a Google News search (here) doesn't return much in the way of useful information. Given the general inability of Wikipedia to maintain BLPs on marginally notable subjects at an adequate level of accuracy and professionalism, this article ought to be deleted until the subject becomes more prominent and a better article can be written. Avruch  T 22:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:03, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * delete Does not meet WP:BIO. Deletion has absolutely nothing to do at all with some vague idea about what we should do with "marginally notable subjects." The relevant test is if they meet WP:BIO. This person doesn't. JoshuaZ (talk) 00:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really a vague idea, I don't think. Perhaps it doesn't have clearly defined criteria, but it has been a somewhat common deletion rationale since it was proposed some time ago in a high profile poll. Avruch  T 00:43, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It is a vague idea. You can't say something isn't vague and then say that it doesn't have a clearly defined criteria. Moreover, when it was proposed it was shown to clearly not have any consensus behind it. The times it has been used as a deletion rationale it has primarily been a substitute for some notion that if there is disagreement about whether a subject meets WP:BIO then the assumption towards deletion is stronger than it might be otherwise. That's a different claim. There remains no consensus, no policy, no guideline and no compelling case to delete articles whose subjects meet BIO. JoshuaZ (talk) 01:00, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I could easily argue the semantics of the idea that something without specific defining criteria is automatically vague... Not the place for it, though. If you like, think of it this way: The nom statement is essentially a recap of the rationale for deleting articles that don't meet WP:BIO. There are other reasons to delete articles about non-notable living people, but the fact that we can't verify or maintain them in a reasonable fashion is certainly a major one. Avruch  T 01:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, that's not specific biographies. That's why we don't have non-notable articles in general. Bringing in living people just complicates the matter. JoshuaZ (talk) 01:24, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * delete After spending several hours trying to help the creator via our IRC help channel, I have been unable to establish notability as described in WP:BAND. I have made a considerable effort to find a URL that asserts any of the criteria, to no avail.  Chzz  ►  19:20, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * comment mentioned in le monde on Jul 2, 1995.Geni 21:58, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm this may also be a legit source.Geni 21:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The first is a schedule mention (i.e. here are the groups performing, among them is Yves Carbonne) and the second is a staff profile - hardly the sort of reliable source necessary to satisfy notability concerns. Avruch  T 22:02, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete (see below, changed to speedy delete) - After searching in multiple different archival news databases and other places for sources, it seems the subject of this article fails WP:NOTE. Has not received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject. Cirt (talk) 22:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I have seen some unfavorable comments relative to deleting Yves Carbonne's page. Le Monde, Bass Musician Magazine, The International Institute of Bassists, 2 cd releases with two prestigious indie record labels, performing around the world with other high profile artists as well as being a soloist, and most importantly: He is the person who is responsible for CREATING the term "Sub-Bass" AND he conceived and is the ONLY bassist in the world to play 10-12 string fretless sub-basses (for those of you who are not familiar with the significance of that: That could be compared to playing a 97 key Bosendorfer Imperial Concert Grand Piano - WITHOUT KEYS. To dismiss him as unimportant is a very short sighted and closed point of view for those arguing for deletion. He was already ON here for at least two years (as are many other musicians not meeting the "American" Wikipedia definition of what a relevant musician is, although he DOES, in fact, with 2 CDs to his credit by prestigious indie record labels). I am not here to make enemies, but, someone who actually CONCEIVED new musical instruments which will take the entire bass community to the next level, could HARDLY be considered an irrelevant musician. He has more song plays on myspace than ANY other French instrumentalist. You can easily verify that. And, although I will guess that you consider that irrelevant, myspace is being used as the primary website for most musicians these days. Record companies look at myspace when determining an artist's potential. Furthermore, he made a bass trio cd with Dominique Di Piazza and Michael Manring, both of whom are notable musicians, and they are both on your site. I will also bring to your attention that he has TOP billing on that CD, i.e. the name of the cd is: Carbonne / Di Piazza / Manring. As I said yesterday, what holds significant importance here and seems to be taking a back seat in the discussions above, is the fact that he is a well recognized, highly respected bassist who is also a PIONEER. He has toured around the world, and I will see what information I can find from European sources. In the meantime, the sources I have listed relative to information about him, i.e. Bass Musician Magazine - where he is a WRITER (he wouldn't be on their STAFF if he was unimportant), Le Monde (as someone else mentioned), reviews in Bass Player Magazine (not online: that is a hard copy magazine, and I would have to research their archives), The International Institute of Bassists, Series of guitars named after him on both the Jerzy Drozd and Noguera websites (below), etc. should be more than enough. It is more than many other bassists on your site have to their credit. And I will repeat: he was already ON HERE for more than two years! If there is an objection to my writing style, then please feel free to change it. But, don't punish a serious, recognized musician because you don't like or approve of my style of writing. That would would be unconscionable and plain wrong.TLCbass (talk) 17:00, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, he has two lines of basses (from 2 of the most important luthiers in the world: Jerzy Drozd and Christian Noguera) named AFTER him:

http://www.noguera-basses.com/basses_serie.php?serie_b=YC

http://www.jerzydrozdbasses.com/yvescarbonne.htm

Hardly an honor that would be received by an "unimportant" musician.

Here are links to concerts in various online news sources in France. That is the reason chzz did not find him under google news usa, because he is French. I found these in 1 minute on French google. I can probably find a hundred more if necessary:

basses.guitarplug.com/news/index,idproduit,86251,guitare,legend_10_yves_carbonne.html http://www.bordeaux.sortir.eu/concerts/yves-carbonne-detonne-2008-02-19-17-51-30 http://www.casafree.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=27212 http://www.forumfr.com/sujet158161-yves-carbonne-en-concert.html

And, when you google his name on the US google site, 293,000 results come up. That number does not reflect an insignificant musician.TLCbass (talk) 17:17, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I will also add, when searching him on Google news, the results are inaccurate if you put " " around the name. Many articles refer to him by his LAST name, and unfortunately, his name is often mis-spelled in favor of the more common "Carbone". One news article below re: concert in California. I will continue to look for more.

'''WIKIPEDIA.COM: He is listed and recognized in the history of the bass guitar ON WIKIPEDIA, as the person who CONCEIVED the 10 string bass: Being that YOUR OWN SITE RECOGNIZES HIM AS THE PERSON WHO CONCEIVED THE 10 STRING BASS, IN THE HISTORY OF THE BASS, I think that outweighs everything else that has been said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_guitar REFERENCE #30. And that is YOUR OWN PAGE.'''

Jazz News Article: Yves Carbonne  http://home.nestor.minsk.by/jazz/news/2008/01/0703.htmlTLCbass (talk) 17:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Planet Bass Interview 2004: http://www.planetbass.fsnet.co.uk/yvescarbonne.html

Concertlive.fr site: http://www.concertlive.fr/tous-les-concerts/11495/yves-carbonne

Article, Total Bass.com, France: http://www.totalbass.com/fr/forum/t1689-1-PourquoiPas8Cordes.html

French interview: Multiple Interview page, in the company of: Hadrien Feraud, Victor Wooten, Dominique DiPiazza, etc.(all considered to be top bassists): http://www.bassebruno.com/interview/interview.php

French interview: http://www.slappyto.net/Utilisateurs/Voir-Profil.aspx?id=1132

Short pictorial: Bass Magazine, France: http://batteurmag.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=9183

Radio reviews: http://www.francodiff.org/fr/2-les-radios-en-parlent/5-les-intentions-de-programmation/4075-yves-carbonne/?s_alpha=C

International Institute of Bassists article: http://www.instituteofbass.com/archive/bass_abroad/carbonne_yves/

Academy of Contemporary Music: Master Class Instructor: http://www.acm.ac.uk/BassMasterclasses/

I am done with this for today. I think I have made a very strong case, with solid support that it would be unjustified to delete Yves Carbonne's page. TLCbass (talk) 18:34, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete, it's a copyvio from http://www.alternityrecords.com/yvescarbonne.htm, with paragraphs rearranged. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:51, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

If you mean who is at Alternity Records I could get his name, if that's what you are asking. However, I don't know who wrote the info I rearranged, modified AND verified, because very similar text is on several pages on the web, and there is no author named anywhere. Therefore, I don't know who wrote it initially. And at this point it is obvious that the people in this discussion are looking for a reason to delete the page. The only feedback is negative, and all for different reasons. Therefore, I question the motives that have been set into place here. TLCbass (talk) 21:06, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete (changed from delete above), as copyvio, per (though the article still fails WP:NOTE, so either speedy delete as copyvio or delete as failing notability both apply.) Cirt (talk) 21:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Delete the entire article then. Your behavior in "reviewing the article" - objectively - for deletion is a joke: don't think for one second that you have presented yourselves as "objective". I have just wasted hours and hours, trying to get supporting documents to correct the original reason for deletion, and then when I did that, you came up with yet ANOTHER reason to delete the article. Forget about anyone of you offering to help rearrange it, reword it, etc. It is clear since yesterday that you were looking for any reason whatsoever to delete the article. The reference to the copyright violation was mentioned last, which proves that no one checked the links I put up from the BEGINNING, yet you said I had no supporting documents. So, it is apparent that no one even opened or thoroughly read the link until today. If that was a valid concern, it could have been brought up 2 days ago. But, it is clear, you just wanted to mess with me because I took a stand. So delete EVERYTHING... DON'T JUST LEAVE UP YOUR CHOICE, INCORRECT, OUTDATED INFORMATION. I will investigate further what can be done about this situation, and the fact that you clearly show preferential treatment to some artists, and clearly showed a negative bias to me. It is more than obvious, that I was singled out and persecuted here, because other artists have MANY more deviations to your "policy" and it is more than clear to anyone who reads this, that your contributors to this discussion cite different reasons for deleting the article, and turned it around into copyright violation after I wasted valuable time trying to satisfy your impossible demands, which NEVER MENTIONED COPYRIGHT VIOLATION UNTIL LATE TODAY. I spent two days rearranging the article, and obtaining supporting references in an attempt to satifsy your ever increasing demands. I am letting it be known, for the record, that there are other musicians on your site who have not been held to NEARLY the same impossible standards that you have attempted to force on me, i.e. incorrect page format, references to personal websites, unsubstantiated data, references to cd sales sites, etc. All the things I was told to remove. So, delete the entire artist page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TLCbass (talk • contribs) 22:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * So are you really trying to claim that because nobody has noticed that this was a copyright violation before, it can't be brought up now? I just came to the nominated article for the first time, and to me, it looked like it was copied from someplace else, and lo and behold.  Copyvios are copyvios, it doesn't matter how long they've been here.  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 01:34, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Read up people. http://wapedia.mobi/en/Wikipedia:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers#1. Oh and I am done discussing this. Have you p---ing match all by yourselves, children. And where is the speedy delete? Do it already! —Preceding unsigned comment added by TLCbass (talk • contribs) 01:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.