Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zachary Lichman (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was no consensus. There seems to be general consensus that the gentleman is borderline notable; however, his range of activities precludes an easy, accurate merge. There is little support for outright deletion, and no call for it on policy grounds (as the article is well-sourced), so no consensus is the only feasible outcome. Xoloz 13:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Zachary Lichman
AfDs for this article: 
 * – (View AfD) (View log)

I was going to nominate this article as delete, except that when I had the chance to do so, the result came out as no-consensus

Nominated for the fact that...

1) he was in a short lived boyband that was less than seriously notable than say Westlife, therefore at that time, none of these members were seriously notable enough, not even Ziggy, to have his own article as until Big Borther, since the split, he has done nothing serious notable

2) There is no evidence of his credentials as a music producer, in another words, there are no proff that he is notable as a music producer

3) not considered as a serious favourite to win BB8, as there are contestants who are more considered to be favourittes to win, thats until he wins, (and I pocket millions from my bet) then I wouldn't have any problem for recreation

4) This article tends to mostly state his appearance in Big Brother page where it belongs, therefore when removed, this leaves it as a stub and not enough to justify his own article. Dr Tobias Funke 20:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Merge to Big Brother 2007 (UK) and protect the redirect. Saikokira 20:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge to Big Brother 2007 (UK) and protect, as the original nominator. Dalejenkins | The Apprentice (UK)'s FA plea-please have your say! 21:10, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletions.   -- the wub  "?!"  21:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge to Big Brother 2007 (UK), but I don't see the need for protection. the wub "?!"  21:22, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep per original AfD, the subject is notable outide of either Big Brother or Northern Line, and the article contains information not relevant to either of those articles. John Hayestalk 02:58, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment, I don't see what's noteable outside BB or Northen Line. Dating Suzanne Shaw? That's not noteable AT ALL. Modeled clothes once for fcuk? That can be mentioned in his Big Brother bio, as the other housemate's occupations are. Appearing on the dating programme? That can be mentioned in his Big Brother bio, as with Shabnam and Britain's Got Talent. Face it, THE SUBJECT IS NOT NOTEABLE! Dalejenkins | The Apprentice (UK)'s FA plea-please have your say! 18:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree and say he is notable, and that those details are not relevant to an article about Big Brother, only to an article about him. John Hayestalk 07:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: As this is to the article creator, give me a reason why he is notable between 2000 and 2007, as I have to say he did nothing at all

Also fails WP:MUSIC as a producer and also I am very doubtful that he will pass as an individual member. Willirennen 01:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep Admittedly very weakly. Although his main claim to fame is BB he was part of Northern Line which did have singles released which charted. For the time being there is little point in deleting as until he gets evicted from BB and fades back into obscurity there is always a slight chance he may do something a bit more worthy. BB has no relevance to Northern Line and Northern Line has no relevance to BB so the guy does have 2 different things about him which are notable.--Catten666 21:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per Dalejenkins, also for the fact Ziggy was from a now forgotten failure boyband who only lasted half of a typical manufactured groups' lifespan (4 years) and none of their has seen any airplay even on local radio following their split, in addition, if Zach was notable following his the group's split, then he would not have to be in the BB house at all, in another words, he should rather have been in Celebrity Big Brother instead, other than that, are there any source to prove that he is credible as a producer as there is no evidence of it, therefore lessening any notability.
 * Keep For each of BB, or as a member of NL, and even per John Hayes's comments he is not specifically and separately notable enough. However, simply for the benefit of keeping things tidy, and avoiding unnecessary duplication (and even arguably the cumulative notability), it is worth having a separate article (even if the current article is stubby and poor). Guinness 10:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment, "For each of BB" - I don't know what you are talking about, do you mean that every BB constestant should have their own page, still not a good excuse to be notable
 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Tobias Funke (talk • contribs)
 * Comment Perhaps if I say it like this; For each of:-
 * His participation in BB,
 * His participation in NL, and
 * His Additional work (as noted previously by John Hayes)
 * he is not notable enough to warrant an article. However, for the practicality of keeping the place tidy, it's worth having.  Notability is a guideline not a rule and this page is useful. Guinness 12:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Carlossuarez46 22:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Very weak keep. He has done some stuff that's kinda notable, and it is all referenced, but whether this can be anything more than a permastub is questionable.-h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 23:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment on Keep, refer to WP:OTHERSTUFF as none of these give a reason for notability. Lets face it, there is thousands of music producers and models and do I see them ever getting a page and do I ever see every BB contestant getting a page. Dr Tobias Funke 03:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep or merge with the BAND of which he was a big part, not with the BB series. Kappa 04:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't mind if it is deleted, but we shouldn't merge most of it with Northern Line or BB, as it simply isn't relevant. John Hayestalk 09:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep per his, has additional achievements beyond Big Brother involvement which would warrant a separate article. Yamaguchi先生 01:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment As with the current edit, it wouldn't warrent an article on its own. I have nothing against recreation if he becomes notable again after coming out of the house, but I am very doubtful that will happen and in no time he will be stacking shelves at the local supermarket or thats where he belongs. Dr Tobias Funke 23:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I agree that we can't keep him just on the chance he might win, as we must not attempt to predict the future, but on the other hand we also must not get rid of him because he might be "stacking shelves" in the future. John Hayes - On Vacationtalk 08:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment I will bring this lot for those who nominated keep, according to this previous deletion nomination, this is what it stated Also, we have notability guidelines for people on Wikipedia. "Reality show contestants are generally notable only if they win"  and I'm sorry to say that it is doubtful he ever will, so therefore this is why I say delete. Dr Tobias Funke 23:23, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm not so sure that that applies in this case, as Vanessa was only ever a reality show contestant (as far as I remember), and I would completely agree with the deletion of any similar article, but in this case being a reality show contestant is only a part of Ziggy's notability (though I will admit a large part of it). John Hayes - On Vacationtalk 08:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment It doesn't matter whether or not he is notable on his own, and whether or not he will be "stacking shelves" in the future. I tend to agree that he is not particularly notable at this time, however the fact is that he is/was involved in two things which are notable and which have separate articles.  It would be better IMHO to have a single article which contains information about him, rather than duplicating this information. Guinness 11:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete Nothing notable other that that if he was notable he wouldn't have to be on a reality show for non-celebs to scrape his last piece of fame. Metallicash 09:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep as he is notable outside of Big Brother -- Roleplayer 20:31, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Come On, give me an example between Northern Line and BB, in another word, have you heared of him before he came into the house, I don't think you can think of any. And for John Hayes, have you read the note on above where it says give me a reason why he is notable between 2000 and 2007 which you have not provided any yet. Dr Tobias Funke 23:21, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Have you read the note above where it says "notability is a guideline not a rule" The article is justified not by it's subject's notability (although I am not arguing either way as to whether or not he is notable), but for maintenance reasons; i.e. to prevent duplication of information across multiple articles.  It is far more sensible to have only one place with information about him.  The presence of this article thus improves Wikipedia.  Guinness 10:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Sorry didn´t see that. To a large extent he wasn´t notable between 2000 and 2007, and I don´t think anyone is disputing that (I can only find the one source in that period). But that doesn´t stop him having an article, he is notable for two seperate things, yes he shouldn´t have an article as a BB candidate alone, or as an musician alone (and certainly not the other things), but all together it forms more information that could be added to either of the existing articles. While I know other stuff exists, I would like to point you to the example of Bez as this is a very similar case. He is slightly more notable as a musician, and slightly less so as a BB contestant, but essentially they are both notable as musicians, and BB contestants, with a few other minor details thrown in. At least this article is far better sourced then that one. John Hayes - On Vacationtalk 11:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.