Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zakarid Armenia


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep. Clear consensus to close as keep, article is well cited and deserves a place within the Encylopedia. (non-admin closure) Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  07:30, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Zakarid Armenia

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Entirety of this article is biased and based on the modern studies which in no way are reliable. I also think this article should be deleted because "Zakarid Armenia" is not a real term, it is a term made up by biased modern scholars but the historical scholars never mention it as "Zakarid Armenia" I will get on saying the other errors of article right now. A)According to author, Zakarid Armenia[2] (Armenian: Զաքարյան Հայաստան Zakaryan Hayastan), was an Armenian principality between 1201 and 1360, ruled by the Zakarid-Mkhargrzeli dynasty. The city of Ani was the capital of the princedom. The Zakarids were vassals to the Bagrationi dynasty in Georgia, but frequently acted independently and at times titled themselves as kings

I see several errors here which I tried to fix but the main editor of page keeps deleting it and warning me, so:

1)- There is no source cited regarding the actual "capital" of so called "Zakarid Armenia" becuase there would be no such thing most likely.

2)- the following claim "but frequently acted independently and at times titled themselves as kings" is backed up only by a single source which says: The degree of Armenian dependence on Georgia during this period is still the subject of considerable controversy. The numerous Zak'arid inscriptions leave no doubt that they considered themselves Armenians, and they often acted independently. meaning, the only source that backs up claims of the person who claimed that Zakarids were "ruling independently" still considers the following subject a CONSIDERABLE CONTROVERSY not a confirmed thing. also, to get the better view about the history we need to show NOT part of it but ALL of it. This is EXACTLY what I tried to do when I added information about how Mongols conquered all of South Caucasus and called it "vilayet of Gurjistan" same as "vilayet of Georgia" due to the reason that conquered Armenian lands were conquered off GEORGIA. On which I cited a source on but on basis of nothing the author DELETED it.

3)Now, let's talk about the claim where it says that "Armenian generals Zakare and Ivane." which is backed up by 2 source of which one is not even possible to find, but the easily accessible one, which you can actually get a view on with clicking it says no such things about those people being Armenians, though quite the opposite, it does that these people were Kurdish in Origin who actually adopted Christianity and got Georgianized. this very source was cited by the person who changed the wikipedia into them being Armenian when they obviously were just Georgians of Kurdish origin.  SonofJacob (talk) 06:33, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Discussion page was created without the afd2 template and never transcluded to a daily log. Fixed now—I have not yet formed an opinion of my own at this time.  --Finngall talk  06:46, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Armenia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 11:46, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Curbon7 (talk) 15:02, 15 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Speedy keep: I'm pretty certain this is a bad-faith nomination based on nationalistic POV pushing (in this case Georgian; to quote the medievalist Joseph Strayer: "The degree of Armenian dependence on Georgia during this period is still the subject of considerable controversy."). The nomination rationale the nominator provided is borderline unhinged; besides the fact, this seems to be a content dispute, so it should be resolved either at the article's talk page or the dispute resolution noticeboard. Curbon7 (talk) 15:11, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep: I can tell this is a bad-faith nomination simply based on the fact that the source that the nominator claims was “not even possible to find” was easily found by me within a few minutes with a simple Google search here: (see preview of page 39). It does, in fact, say that they are Armenians (or rather, Armenianized). What I do not see mentioned in the “easily accessible” source highlighted by the nominator, is the “Georginization” of this dynasty as the nominator claims. This article doesn’t need to be deleted. I do agree, however, that it can be improved, renamed, moved, merged, or reworked.  — [ kentron hayastan  ]

No. In fact, the whole article of "Zakarid Armenia" is a bad-faith nationalistic article which serves degrading the Georgian kind in eyes of others. Everything is fake and I am not even able to do anything, starting from editing the article and til this moment. I will try to debunk EVERY SINGLE sentence of this article.

'''>Zakarid Armenia[2] (Armenian: Զաքարյան Հայաստան Zakaryan Hayastan), was an Armenian principality between 1201 and 1360, ruled by the Zakarid-Mkhargrzeli dynasty. The city of Ani was the capital of the princedom. The Zakarids were vassals to the Bagrationi dynasty in Georgia, but frequently acted independently and at times titled themselves as kings.[3][4]<'''

1) Zakarids were APPOINTED RULERS by the Bagrationis, they have never been a "vassal" rulers. This is a strategy every country uses after expanding their kingdom, APPOINT a ruler. And in medieval descriptions many things are sometimes unclear, and the fact that SOMETIMES the Zakarids acted independently is NORMAL because that is exactly why they were appointed by Bagrationis.

>In 1236, they became vassals to the Mongol Empire.[5] Their descendants continued to hold Ani until the 1330s, when they lost it to a succession of Turkish dynasties, including the Kara Koyunlu, who made Ani their capital.<

1)There is no such things as them becoming "vassals" to the Mongol Empire, because, the Mongols literally conquered half of Georgia including the Armenian lands that were subject to the Georgian kingdom. Guess what the Mongols called it? - VILAYET OF GEORGIA! Source: C.P.Atwood- Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol Empire, p.197 within the Mongol Empire, the Armenian lands were ruled indirectly, through the GEORGIAN monarch.

>Despite some complications in the reign of George III, the successes continued in the reign of the Queen Tamar.[9] This was chiefly due to the Armenian generals Zakare and Ivane.[11][12]<

1)When I see them being labeled as "Armenian" but in reality, the source which is able to CONFIRM them being Armenian says that they are of KURDISH origin who adopted Christianity and changed their names to the Georgian version of what they previously had.

2)And I am pretty sure that such a behavior is punishable according to the laws of Wikipedia where the wiki page says opposite of the cited source.

3)According to the medieval ARMENIAN historians such as Kirakos Gandzaketsi, and Vardan Areveltsi, the Mkhargrdzelids were also Kurdish. Which also accepted by Minorsky Vladimir.    (source:Minorsky Vladimir. Studies in Caucasian History. — London: Taylor's Foreign Press, 1953.)

Speaking of Nationalist agenda, not only the whole article is fake, additionally, the map of the so called "Zakarid Armenia" which is presented in the following Wiki page, claims the areas of Javakheti and Kvemo Kartli on the map. Even the parts around Kars and Tao-Klarjeti which actually got INDEPENDENCE from Georgia by the help of Mongol and later on throughout history emerged as an independent GEORGIAN entity called Samtskhe-Saatabago. Where is the source of them controlling the following lands? also, quick addition, the royal families ALWAYS used to switch places in ruling the various parts of the lands in Armenia. Such as Orbelis, Thorelis and the Jaqelis. Though under Georgia, the regions always used to switch it's place from several co-ruling dynasties to others. SonofJacob (talk) 15:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)


 * You might want to double-check the sources. One of the two sources says that they’re “[…] Armenianized Kurdish family of Zakharids, […]” (The Making of the Georgian Nation, Suny, 1994, pp.39). In other words, by the time relevant to this article (or by the time those two individuals earned their positions), they already considered themselves to be Armenian. Many dynasties originate in foreign lands or are of foreign ethnicities (the Bagrationis themselves are an example of this). The distant origin or background of the dynasty is irrelevant in this case. — [ kentron hayastan ]  01:02, 16 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep -- That a subject is controversial and that there may be multiple opinions on it is not a ground for deletion. It may be that the title is inappropriate (which implies a rename) or that there are Georgian and Armenian POVs on the subject.  In the latter case, the article should be amended to ensure that both POVs are expressed.  It is sometimes the case with distant history that several possible syntheses from the sources are possible.  It is then a question of judgment by historians as to where the truth lies, which may be somewhere between the positions expressed.  Furthermore, it is often the case (as apparently here), that the sovereignty of a medieval or ancient ruler was not absolute, but subject to the suzerainty of another ruler.  The solution to edit-warring not to be found through an AFD nomination, but through a discussion of the differing views, which can best be undertaken on the talk page of the article.  A fact with an accurate citation should be allowed to remain (if it is relevant); if it is in fact controversial (as opposed to definitely wrong), it should remain, but with an explanation of what is disputed and why (with references).  Peterkingiron (talk) 20:08, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I actually advised SonofJacob to bring the article to AFD because he kept tagging it for speedy deletion without a valid CSD rationale. I thought that AFD was a better forum for considering his argument (which I am unqualified to pass judgment on). Liz Read! Talk! 23:13, 16 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep - This entire AfD was opened by a diruptive and edit-warring user who tends to push POV. It's even more ridicoulous that we have to engage in this vote to keep a well sourced article which most certainly has it's place on wikipedia. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 20:28, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

I absolutely love having most of my arguments left unanswered. Also love how you mainly focus on a 2nd degree re-written history by mr.Bournoutian.

According to ისტორია 11 (მოსწავლის წიგნი, ნაწილი 1 (Sulakauri edition)), (page 333) a history book used by the whole country of Georgia, During the year 1220 Mongolian Army had come deep into the borders of Georgia and the battle was fought in Khunani. also in 1225 there is recorded battle against Jalal ad-din in the lands of Armenia, to be exact, around the city of Garni.

In the same book, there's written that the Mongols made a Mass-Surveys in their vilayets, and according to the results, if Vilayet of Georgia could supply the Mongol empire by 1 Soldier out of every 9 family, Georgia could supply the empire by overall number of 90.000 warriors. This being said, at lowest there are 4-5 members per family. (parents, great grandparents and kids.) so if we do the math, and multiply 90.000 to 9 and then to multiply it by, let's say 4 we will get approx. the number of 3,240,000. it is also notable that this is not population of all of South Caucasus since west Georgia had maintained its independence but the rest of kingdom was absorbed into Mongolia including the Armenian lands that were part of the Georgian kingdom. , in the times of XIIIth century, a nation such as Georgia having a number as great as 3,240,000 (also west Georgia extracted) is not even "highly unlikely" but pretty much impossible.

The mentioned thing above is just a drop of water compared to the facts that I can show you to find out the truth. Let's go on.

Now, I will share a story in short version. Which was written in the Historical Chronicles, called "Life of Georgia" or "Life of Kartli" (Which is not a re-written modern study which can be biased at any point of view, but a historical inscription which was written centuries ago) (modern book is called ტომი III – ცხოვრება წმინდა მეფე თამარისა; ახალი ქართლის ცხოვრება, pages 67-74)

Basically, while Zakaria and Ivane were gone to the funeral of David Soslani (husband of Tamara the great)Sultan of Ardabil decided to march into the lands of Ani quietly. Once they reached Ani, they brutally murdered 12.000 Christian Armenians and went back.

When Zakaria and Ivane came back they were downhearted about it. They were saying in a regretful way that many Christians have died. Then, Mkhargrdzelids went to Tamar and OPPOSED an offer of doing exactly the same to enemy as what they have done during the time of Ramadan.

In short, according to medieval inscription there was said that Tamara ACCEPTED (I make this bold because this article claims that mkhargrdzelids had high degree of independence) the offer opposed by Mkhargrdzelids which resulted in the Vassalization of Ardabil to the kingdom of Georgia around 1205. In midst of the story, The Georgian army had killed 12.000 Ardabilis inside mosques and had killed sultan relatively taking wives and children of the sultan as hostages. Also, the Georgian army had raided many cities of Iran and had committed several braveries.

Interestingly enough, Mkhargrdzelids who had done this bravery, would not be able to do it without the approval word of Tamar. meaning that they were in fact not independent at any point from the kingdom of Georgia. also Ardabil being subjugated, I wanted to mention that it is located in Northern Iran and doesn't share border with modern Georgia. And it is impossible for the Georgians to vassalize a state that they do not border. But obviously, the Georgians bordered it through the lands of what is now Armenia, elaborating that there are several chronicles that back up my point.

Let's make comperation here.

1) It is a FACT that Mkhargrdzelids couldn't act independently without the word of Tamar, and it is backed up by NOT modern studies, but historical chronicles.

2)It is a FACT that when Mongols came into Georgia, in 1220 lands of Armenia was part of Georgian kingdom. Also being backed up by not modern studies which are biased, but HISTORICAL CHRONICLES.

3)It is a FACT that after the Mongols had conquered Eastern and Southwestern Georgia alongside all of Armenia, - it was called VILAYET OF GEORGIA/GURJISTAN being backed up by both modern studies, AND HISTORICAL CHRONICLES. (which can freely be encountered as an independent one since no Armenian or Georgian has to do anything with studies of C.P.Atwood- Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol Empire, p.197)

4)It is a FACT that Mkhargrdzelids were just governors but not some kind of "dynastic kings" but Governors. Who were having conflicts with several other house of families such as Orbeli, Thoreli, Tmogveli and so on. SonofJacob (talk) 21:50, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

ANOTHER, HUGE ERROR OF THE ARTICLE

A) Regarding the following, the regions of Tao-Klarjeti and territories in and around Kars were part of the Zakarids. But in reality, these lands have never belonged to the Zakarids. In fact, according to this Wikipedia article of "Zakarid Armenia" the ""state"" was established at 1201. but in reality, these lands were part of the house of Jaqeli the region has records of being under the Jaqelis/tsikhisjvarelis both BEFORE 1201 (The founder being Beshken Jaqeli) and for example even after 1201, at the hands of Sargis I I suppose the map to get TAKEN DOWN IMMEDEATELY since we all know that what I just wrote about the region is undoubtable and historically recorded truth. Claiming HUGE CHUNK OF LANDS without any basis is wrong as well.

B) Regarding the following, the regions of Javakheti, Kvemo Kartli and Lore(northern Armenia) are part of Zakarids as well when, there is no living proof that they have ever been ruling over these lands as after the independence of Georgia and dissulotion of it, these lands all belong to the kingdom of Kartli. If "power shift" in these regions happened later, (meaning the regions switched hands from zakarids to someone else)I am requesting the exact date when, why or how it happened. SonofJacob (talk) 22:04, 17 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.