Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zarina Sani


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:54, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Zarina Sani

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Can't find evidence she meets our criteria for notability. I do see some circuitous referencing in articles created by this editor, and note that the publisher of this person's book has only published 12 books, which seem to be also by subjects of articles created by this editor. http://openlibrary.org/publishers/Bazm_e_Seemab Dougweller (talk) 06:58, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete. I tried to see if there was anything out there about her and unless there's sources that aren't posted on the internet and/or in another language, there's just nothing out there to show that she meets any of the notability guidelines here on Wikipedia. I tried to see if maybe she could pass WP:ACADEMIC because she helped create a language dictionary, but I'm not sure that this is enough to really make her pass any of those guidelines since the dictionary doesn't seem to be overwhelmingly notable itself. If anyone can provide sources I'm willing to debate, but the late Sani just doesn't pass notability guidelines.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 10:39, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS JAMMMY &#9734;&#9733; 22:58, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS JAMMMY &#9734;&#9733; 22:58, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS JAMMMY &#9734;&#9733; 22:58, 23 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Comments I created this page. I have restored and added references in evidence of Zarina Sani officially recognised as an Urdu poetess of note which list highlights notable poets from 13th century upto 2006. I have also brought forward in evidence the two books that made her a note-worthy researcher which are in addition to her research effort on Seemab Akbarabadi that earned her a P.hD. In India review of books etc; is not common and most of the opinions etc; on books are not available on the internet. I find no reason why this page on Zarina Sani ought to be deleted.Soni Ruchi (talk) 01:35, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
 * CommentThe only problem is that I see a lot of sources that go to the official site for her and pretty much just confirm that she wrote things. These are considered to be primary sources, which means that they can't show notability. They can confirm that she wrote the books but it doesn't confirm that the works are considered notable per Wikipedia's notability policies. (Just publishing things does not guarantee notability.) Now if they reference books and articles that talk about her in depth, that's slightly different but it would still need to be checked to ensure that the books/articles say what the website claims that they say. I mean no disrespect by this, but in the past we've had a lot of sites that tailor and edit sources to make them appear as complimentary as possible to the subject. As a result we generally do not consider any republishing of information on a primary source to be reliable. (There are exceptions, but those are few and far between.) It shows us that sources might exist and gives us a direction to start out on, but for the most part we can't use anything that has been published by anyone involved with the topic at hand (in this case, the late Ms Sani). The link to a syllabus does help, though. If you can show that many schools use the book (by many I mean more than just one or two schools) then that could help show notability for the book or for Ms Sani through WP:ACADEMIC. The biggie here is that you have to show notability through sources that have not been published by Ms Sani, her people, or by anyone that would fall under WP:PRIMARY. Here's a rundown of the sources:
 * 1) This just lists her as an Urdu author. It establishes that she did write, but it isn't something that would establish notability.
 * 2) This is just a list of results on Google books, which is unusable as a source. You need to be more specific with the result. Even if it does establish that she got a degree, getting a degree is not something that establishes notability per Wikipedia guidelines. The only time that obtaining a degree is notable is if it's been established that it's the first time that the degree has been given to someone and even then you'd have to establish through reliable secondary sources that this was notable. Just listing that someone has a degree is not notability.
 * 3) You listed this twice, but the fact remains that publishing books on a subject does not give notability to the author. It doesn't matter how notable the subject of the book is, that notability is not transferred to the book or the author. Now if you could show through multiple reviews by independent and reliable sources that the books are notable, that would help a lot. If many of the sources are off the internet, you can always establish that the sources exist by scanning a copy of the source or by taking a clear picture that shows that the source exists, goes in depth on Ms Sani (and/or her works), and is by a reliable source.
 * 4) This is something I listed, but this is considered to be more of a trivial source since it only briefly mentions Ms Sani and one of her books. We'd need more than just this and unfortunately even though this does show that she's accomplished something that could be notable, it wouldn't show notability in and of itself.
 * 5) This helps, but we need more than just one syllabus showing that a class is using her book(s). We need multiple sources to show that many schools are using her books, not just this one class.
 * I know this sounds harsh, but the rules for establishing notability are incredibly strict and unfortunately the subjects about people, places, or things from foreign countries usually end up getting removed because of language barriers and a potential lack of sources that can be found online. Since you seem to have access to the sources, it unfortunately puts a lot of emphasis on you to provide the sources. What I can recommend is that you look into getting some of the people from WikiProject India to help you out on this front. They're a team of people who specialize in focusing on articles that pertain to India, so they'll be a valuable resource when it comes to finding sources that might be in another language or not on the internet. Here's the link to the active members (WikiProject_India/Members).Tokyogirl79 (talk) 05:55, 27 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment http://www.urducouncil.nic.in/urdu_wrld/u_auth/index_all.htm is not just a list. It is a list of poets covering almost 800 years of Urdu poetry recognising their noteworthiness amongst thousands of other poets who do not find their names in this list. Kindly do not set aside this list. Here it is considered as a place of pride. I have cited her book Boodha Darakhat in few other articles that I have posted. No, I do not have access to sources that are not on the internet. When I sought those sources for my use in the few articles that I had posted the standard response of surviving members of a few families I could contact was that after their respective demise no papers or books or magazines pertaining to them were preserved, mostly sold as waste paper. In absence of related links try I did but could not locate the originators of those destroyed sources. http://www.mu.ac.in/syllabus/4.10%20Urdu.pdf is the syllabus that is followed by all colleges affliated Mumbai University that hold post graduate Master of Arts (urdu) classes; the book is not meant for schools and the number of colleges can exceed one hundred; it is a big and important university that is over one hundred years old. There is not much time left, how am I to contact the suggested active members?Soni Ruchi (talk) 09:32, 27 June 2012 (UTC) P.S. I have contacted one member and sought his assistance.Soni Ruchi (talk) 09:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment


 * Why does the info-box refer to her as a 'Professor'? She was a lecturer at a college, where she was the head of her department, not a professor at a university! Big difference.--Zananiri (talk) 12:13, 27 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment Zananiri Ji, I did not insert the info-box; it is to be corrected. Google Books search revealed two books making mention of Zarina Sani. Her name figures in the book titled - Indian poetesses: past and present published by the Govt. of India which fact cannot be ignored. She died 30 years ago when internet had not arrived in this country, and no one then thought there would be Wikipedia demanding a lot more information than is readily available now. You must have experienced the same kind of difficulty as I am now. I repeat there is no reason for this article to be deleted. Regards.Soni Ruchi (talk) 02:08, 28 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete: I am familiar with these lists. They simply give the names of poets and writers, verifying their names and dates of birth and death, sometines incorrectly. They do not establish their importance.
 * Tokyogirl has made a number of valid points and also refers to two identical references cited in the article, from a website  created by Sani's family to give publicity to the books she wrote. Many children like to honour their parents in this manner. It has nothing to do with the importance of the subhect or the books.
 * It would have been more helpful to cite sources outside Google book lists and the family, as book lists simply confirm that the books were published. What is required is evidence of their importance. Hundreds of thousands of people aound the world are published authors. Sani, too, is an author. Notability is another matter.--Zananiri (talk) 10:18, 28 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Addendum: By importance and notabilty, I mean, of course, notabilty per Wikipedia rules. This is the crux of the matter. No disrespect to the late Sani.--Zananiri (talk) 11:04, 28 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment But, Zananiri Sir, you are ignoring the two books I have cited that I found through Google Books search that mention about Zarina Sani (the URLs for these two finds is very long). And then there is her book prescribed for M.A.(Urdu) syllabus by Mumbai University. Is this not notability which is sublime and with dignity? Regards.Soni Ruchi (talk) 03:03, 29 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 15:01, 2 July 2012 (UTC)




 * Delete. I have looked at this article and related issues again and have come to the same conclusion again, after considering the following additional points regarding her notabilty per Wikipedia criteria:


 * Mumbai University course:
 * The book by Sani, mentioned by the creator of the article to attribute Sani  with notability per Wikipedia, appears to be a red herring. It is recommended, not prescribed, for an 'optional' paper not a 'compulsory' one and there are only two affiliated enrolling colleges  for this  course, apart from a long-distance correspondence course facilty on offer :http://www.mu.ac.in/colleges/List%20of%20Post%20Graduate%20Courses-_new_.pdf


 * None of the Urdu courses at Indian universities, which are well-known for their Urdu faculties e.g. Aligarh, Lucknow, Allahabad, Jammu, Osmania and several universities in Delhi, recommend her books, as far as I have been able to ascertain. And, as  Tokyogirl79  says, far more institutions would have to be using this book to make the author or the book notable.  Moreover, courses change, options change and recommended books change, particularly if the book is being used at only two affiliated colleges of one university. In any case, 'recommended' reading lists are never 'required' reading lists. There is a difference. Notabilty, promoted on the grounds that someone's book is being used at a couple of colleges in the world, should and would, by this reasoning, make hundreds of thousands of authors around the world instant candidates for Wikipedia articles.


 * I note, too, that the person who elevated Sani to a professor in the infobox on 5 May 2011, as the revision history shows, is Sani's son and his own Wikipedia Talk page  has an  exchange of banter with Soni Ruchi, the creator of this article, as does her own Talk page. These pages provide further clues about Sani's eligibilty for notabilty per Wikipedia criteria or lack of it.  His family site has been cited twice in the article. Yet, the misleading bit in the infobox  was deleted, only after I referred to it on this AfD page i.e.  over a year after it had been inserted in the infobox.


 * The Urdu Council list mentioned (which merely gives  names and years of birth and death of those listed) as being a place of pride for Urdu writers and poets, has a question mark after the year of Sani's birth. Her entry reads: "2284. Zarina Sani, 1930?-84".  If she were a renowned literary figure, as the article claims in the opening sentence,  that entry should have been correct i.e. 1936-1982. Actually, this is a minor point, but had she been that well-known, the mistake would not have occurred in the first place. I mention this only because the list is being given so much importance by the creator of the article:http://www.urducouncil.nic.in/urdu_wrld/u_auth/index_all.htm


 * As an academic, Sani stayed on as a lecturer at the same college for well over twenty years, so never, for whatever reason,  advanced to a professorship. I could not find Urdu as a degree course subject on the college website. Of course, things may have been different 30 years ago, but strong departments at a college or university generally disappear only for cogent reasons.  At present, it appears, one person teaches Persian at that college.


 * As a writer, her output is limited. She was, apparently, a good friend of the Zia Fatehabadi family and her  book on him mentions his children and their activities  as well, unusual in a serious academic literary appraisal. I would not have heard of her or this book, if  Soni Ruchi had not cited it repeatedly in her Wiki articles. Sani's Ph.D  thesis is just that:  a dissertation for a Ph.D. Again, there are hundreds of thousands of people, all over the world, who write and  have written dissertations  on their chosen subjects to obtain a Ph.D.  That alone does not make them notable by any standards.


 * That Sani is listed in the Indian government's list of poetesses, past and present, is neither here nor there. Like the earler list cited in the article, such publications are meant to be quick points of reference, like telephone directories listing trades and professions. They  have their usefulness, but they do not pass judgement on the importance or notability of those listed. That is not their aim or function. They are not 'definitive works of reference' on any subject.


 * Sani, sadly, died too early to have left behind the kind of  literary work, for which one remembers most notable Urdu poets and writers. Only a very few attain the notability we are looking for, at the age at which she died. I have come across no sources that indicate that she did either.--Zananiri (talk) 21:47, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete. I'm certainly no expert in Urdu poetry, but I think the fact almost all the sources are webpage ephemera suggests that little note has been taken of her thus far. Agricola44 (talk) 15:21, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.