Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zvi Mowshowitz


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was keep. bainer (talk) 09:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Zvi Mowshowitz
Closer's notes

The only argument in this deletion debate was notability. Those in favour of deletion raised the argument that the article did not meet WP:BIO (an argument made without qualification), and an argument that card players generally are not worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. Conversely, IdahoEv made a comprehensive argument about the subject's notability and prominence within his field.

In my opinion, the "keep" argument was by far the most persuasive and outweighed the limited and weak arguments raised in favour of deletion.

Delete this professional magic card player. I mean, really! 172 unique Google hits which is very very few for a dude who used to be a "popular internet writer". - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 14:42, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Am pressuming he confined most of his writings to just a few sites, which is common to do. Even very popular writers might post all their writings to a single site. Mathmo 03:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Tom Harrison Talk 14:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete nn per WP:BIO. Crum375 19:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. DarthVad e r 22:48, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. If we have any other articles on professional collectible card game players, I would look into that too...--Pharos 23:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Jon Finkel and David Williams. -- Grev 01:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. DVD+ R/W 23:33, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete. If he'd won the World Championship like Finkel or been widely known for something else like Williams, I'd probably have voted keep.  -- Grev 01:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Mathmo 03:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I already provided unique Google hits in the nomination. Your link is misleading. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 12:20, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Has a decent chunk of coverage in the book Jonny Magic and the Cardshark Kids, which I've added. Notable enough for me.  -- Norvy (talk) 17:52, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Zvi was extremely well known for developing format-breaking decks that exploited card interactions;   After having read a book on deck design circa 2001, he was for several years the only pro player of the game I could name from memory.  His play and contributions probably affected the design of the game more than any other single player, as he demonstrated more than once how cards dismissed as unplayable were in fact game-dominating when correctly understood (one example discussed ).  The game's creators describe him as having "broken more ...cards than any other player in Magic history ) ).  Wizards of the Coast hired him as a result, he worked on the game's R&D and wrote a column for them for several years until just a month ago .  IdahoEv 09:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep everyone knows Zvi.  Grue   08:08, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Does this article really meet WP:BIO?  The claim that everyone knows Zvi is clearly false since I don't know him.  He may be known is some circles, but is that encylopedic?  Vegaswikian 02:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * From WP:BIO: Sportspeople/athletes who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, or at the highest level in mainly amateur sports. Zvi has won a Pro Tour and a Grand Prix, made four Pro Tour Top 8s, and earned a total of over $140,000 playing Magic.  -- Norvy (talk) 18:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Strong Delete as obscure non-notable fancruft. entirely unencyclopedic. Bwithh 18:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

A note on professional magic
... for those who consider articles such as this merely "fanboyish", or don't consider the game to be a "sport".

Magic is played by hundreds of millions of people worldwide, and played professionally by tens of thousands. The Magic professionnal world championship has been held annually since 1994. Individual events have prize purses over $200k, the Pro Tour's annual purse is $240k, and the top pros have lifetime winnings well in excess of $300k.

Magic has all the trappings of a smallish professional sport: thousands of professional players, television coverage, player sponsorships, large prize purses, an international governing body, trade publications in both print and electronic media, and a Hall of Fame.

Magic should be considered the same as any other professional game/sport played for money, such as Chess, Poker, or Pool, and as such its important, famous, or influential players are eligible for inclusion. Given that many other games with professional competitions are treated like sports WRT WP:BIO (Wikipedia contains entire pages just for lists Go_players and Poker Players, for example), Magic should be no different. It is certainly newer than many other professional games, and perhaps attracts types of players some would consider "fanboys", but those facts on their own shouldn't constitute a basis for not treating it seriously as a professional sport. I would also note that there is significant and growing overlap between professional Magic and professional Poker; a number of Magic's top players are also professional Poker players, including Thomas Keller, Noah_Boeken, Jon_Finkel, and David Williams

As an international game, players like Zvi are visible to a wider audience than the typical US college sports player.

Phrases like these ("professional magic card player. I mean, really!" and "obscure non-notable fancruft") expose a fair amount of personal bias about what constitutes a legitimate sport.

Zvi in particular may not have won as much as some of the others, but was probably more influential on the game's evolution than any other single player. IdahoEv 18:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I am prepared to admit my bias against including such things as "professional magic card players" into Wikipedia - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 18:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.