Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zwart-Wit '28


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep. Clearly notable per WP:FOOTYN, especially the achievements of the women's team. Fenix down (talk) 10:18, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Zwart-Wit '28

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Amateur football clubs are generally non-notable, fails WP:GNG JMHamo (talk) 15:49, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. JMHamo (talk) 15:50, 31 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Speedy keep – Where shall I start? I have a lot to say on this AfD. Let me put this in a few bullet points with individual signatures, so folks can argue any point they wish to discuss. In other words, the rationale for keeping is below. In this section I am limiting myself to the form. The "speedy" is part of the form. I'm speedying because I believe that the AfD was proposed in error, as many sources and facts (I'll detail below) were still missing. In "speedy keep" the noun is keep, so that is the important part of my opinion. gidonb (talk) 17:45, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * While amateur football may be generally non-notable, Netherlands is among many nations that stretches or has stretched the definitions of amateur football in order to perform better in more and less important international venues, including the Olympic Games. Players in the Hoofdklasse and divisions above, that it still considers "amateur", are salaried. The better players are salaried also in divisions below the Hoofdklasse. In other words, while this statement may be correct it should not be leading us in any way, because we'd introduce sports fraud into our decision making. gidonb (talk) 17:45, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * How are these generalized statements relevant to Zwart-Wit '28? The club couldn't pay the salaries to which it had contractually committed itself in the Hoofdklasse (as all other wink wink amateur clubs in this section) and went bankrupt. Amateurism? Maybe in management but clubs at this level do not often go bankrupt. gidonb (talk) 17:45, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Zwart-Wit '28 won the national KNVB Women's Cup of the Netherlands, among all Dutch clubs. Not among quote unquote amateur clubs. So however you turn it, the notability of Zwart-Wit '28 transcends that even of supposed (faked) amateurism because it won one of the highest national honors in soccer, independent of its classification. Surely nobody wants to claim that women's soccer is free of merit and notability? Supporting this AfD is supporting that ridiculous idea! gidonb (talk) 17:45, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The notion that the club fails WP:GNG is plainly false. The club has had major, independent, and verifiable coverage in all national media. Most of this wasn't there at the time of nomination and there is so much more to add. Especially well covered were the national amateur championship for men, the national cup for all women, and the bankruptcy beats all with lengthy articles on the rise and fall of the "Feyenoord of Saturday Soccer". While I cannot spend all day today on improving the article, I will add more in the days to come. I am adding this information here (in the article would have been better) least folks start digging in on opinions based on imprecise statements in the nomination. I'm not criticizing the nominator. Much of the information wasn't and still isn't there so I'll take any and all blame myself. To the nominator I propose withdrawing this baseless AfD. gidonb (talk) 17:45, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment Just an example among many that prove that Hoofdklasse teams and seasons commonly have Wikipedia articles. This is a strange nomination by a nominator who has since also prodded an article on an ex-prof soccer player that I created. Such nominations are an opening to huge destructions of valuable (sports) information at Wikipedia. Now I am not saying that we cannot discuss dramatic changes in valid scopes for WP articles, however, if we were to develop new policies against articles on professional footballers or on Hoofdklasse clubs, the correct WP:VENUE would be elsewhere. Not here! gidonb (talk) 01:14, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment Our policy is very clear on this topic: All teams that have played in the national cup (or the national level of the league structure in countries where no cup exists) are assumed to meet WP:N criteria. As can be read and is sourced in the article, the male and female clubs of Zwart Wit '28 have not only participated in the national cup; the female one has actually won it! Conclusion is that this nomination is in strong violation with our WP:N guidelines and it should be speedy closed or withdrawn! gidonb (talk) 14:30, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep - playing (and winning!) the Hoofdklasse is sufficient, it's the top-level of amateur football in the Netherlands and quite famous. GiantSnowman 10:06, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep - This is a well written article with references from reputable sources, they have played in the third tier and have a rich history in Dutch football. The article could be improved upon, with an infobox for example and maybe some rewriting, but otherwise I think this article should stay. Regards, (Subzzee (talk) 14:49, 2 January 2017 (UTC))
 * Subzzee, thank you for the warm words. At your suggestion, I have added an infobox. gidonb (talk) 05:01, 3 January 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.