Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 21

Anniversary/On this day section PROPOSAL for Portal:Australia
I've started a set of subpages at Portal:Australia/Anniversaries, which has a subpage for every day of the year, so that notable events and anniversaries in Australian history can be considered. Hopefully, if approved by the community for inclusion on the portal page, it would not be hard to maintain, as a glance at the code of Portal:Germany, shows that there is an automated device so that the reference to the relevant day's subpage will automatically update itself at 0:00 every day, rather than needing a user to switch the link every day. I've stuck a few random notable events in there just off the top of my head, etc. Regards, Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 02:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That's remarkably addictive. I added a few, including some obvious ones for Jan 1 and 26 :P. What about famous/important people's births and deaths? pfctdayelise (translate?) 04:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, notable births, deaths, elections, disasters, wars, whatever, everything.Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 04:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Is this to populate some Australian-flavoured "On this day" column? I appreciate that you've made a lot of effort here, but just thinking about what this is really doing and it could be used in the future... Would a better way to go about this be to use a category like and add it to the South Australia article and any other relevant article as needed? Or  (which is perhaps closer to what you're doing.


 * Also note: the notable Australian births and deaths is really just going to be a subset (or perhaps the full set) of the intersection of Category:Australian people with each of the Category:xxxx births and Category:xxxx deaths categories. Because I can express it mathematically that should be able to be automated for our calendar. &mdash; Donama 04:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It's by calendar day, and I don't think that there is category for births by day, which would have been easier if someone just scrolled over with popups to see what the nationality was in the lead sentence. It hasn't taken much work yet, I simply cut and pasted the framework from Portal:Germany and used "Find and Replace" to substitute Australia everywhere, so it only took about 20 minutes! Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 05:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah good point. We probably should have categories on the day of the year for births and deaths for just this kind of purpose. &mdash; Donama 05:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Every day in Portal:Australia/Anniversaries/June is now blue linked. Plenty of opportunities still for additions or replacements.  Can we start from 1 June?--A Y Arktos\talk 23:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Operation Astute
Just started an article on the Operation Astute deployment to East Timor. Perhaps it could be used to cover the unrest there in general, given there isn't actually an article for it.--cj | talk 13:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * There a three other countries sending forces, are they all working under the same operational structure?--Peta 13:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * No mention of it on the defence website. This is breaking news though - the operation was only named two or three hours ago.--cj | talk 14:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that there have been talks over the last day or two about a multinational deployment, but since the violence escalated today, Australia sent in troops in advance of the formal invitation/agreement as to the rules of engagement. Once the agreement is hammered out (probably overnight) then the other nations will deploy their forces. The talks have involved the local UN people so it may be another blue beret job. --bainer (talk) 14:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * As of last night, the East Timorese Government had not approved rules of engagement, but the situation there was deteriorating so badly that the government deemed it appropriate to send forces there. Capitalistroadster 19:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Adelaide meetup
For those of you in Adelaide or planning to be over the next few months, there appears to be interest in having a meeting of Adelaide Wikipedians, after the style of the Melbourne and Sydney meetups. Please see Meetup/Adelaide or add it to your watch list to get involved in this discussion. So far just 6 Adelaide Wikipedians have added their voices to the discussion there, but I sense there may be several more to speak up from Adelaide! Cheers &mdash; Donama 05:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Cane Toad popular culture
I am currently trying to get Cane Toad to featured article status (it is in peer review here if you would like to contribute), and I need to expand the popular culture section. So if you can think of any cultural references of the Cane Toad, could you please add it to the article. Thanks --liquidGhoul 14:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Template:Australia state or territory
I've taken the liberty of doing some reformatting within Template:Australia state or territory. Hope you all don't mind. The main point is to make everything that looks like a row actually be a row, but while I was there I made it a bit narrower. -- Rick Block (talk) 23:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks Rick. The format was just an altered version of whatever Infobox Country was like a year or so ago.--cj | talk 08:16, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Young Australian of the Year Recipients
As yet, there is no article describing the award for Young Australian of the Year. All that is available is a list of recipients dating to 1979. Recently, I have added succession boxes for award recipients from 1999 to 2006. It is my intention to include: I have also added names of recent recipients to the People of Australia "To Do list". Any contributions to these articles would be appreciated. --bernie_bernbaum12:51, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * An entry for each recipient
 * A concise article regarding "Young Australian of the Year"

Australian of the Year describes the Young Australian of the Year award and the Senior Australian of the Year award. I think that is adequate. It is still a short article and can be extended. I agree that recipiants should have articles. --Bduke 03:07, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

East Timor
Coverage of this was spread around a whole bunch of articles, so I've consolidated everything on the crisis at 2006 East Timor crisis. Operation Astute (mentioned a couple of sections above) should probably still be expanded as the main article about the military details of the deployment, but other information should probably go into the new article. --bainer (talk) 03:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Requested photographs in Australia
Categories for requested photographs in Australia have crept somewhat and almost duplicated the efforts at Australian Wikipedians' notice board/Request for images. I was thinking along the lines of merging and doing away with the todo list and using the categories to centralise the requests? The Requested photographs in Australia category is automatically populated by placing a   notice on an article talk page. Any further ideas or objections to using a system such as this? -- Longhair 21:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I support the use of tags on talk pages and automatic categorisation. Clarification of the requirement can be done on the article's talk page.  Calling for the assistance of other editors for a particular project can always be done through this noticeboard or one of the other project notice board discussion pages.--A Y Arktos\talk 23:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. The requested photos categories seem to be working really well. If not already done, then the contents of Australian Wikipedians' notice board/Request for images should be categorised into the requested photos cat tree.  The list can be removed, thus freeing up space in this page's header for other requests. Snottygobble 05:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * There should be a centralised page for photo requests in Australia, separated under regional headings (South Australia, Adelaide, etc). Its an excellent idea. michael talk 05:48, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've created city based request categories for the major cities. I didn't see the sense in Sydney based Wikipedians looking through Tasmanian photo opportunities, unless they really wanted to. -- Longhair 06:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Every request listed at Australian Wikipedians' notice board/Request for images now has an appropriate talk page template added, listing them all within the relevant national categories. Any ideas on what to do now with the redundant page? -- Longhair 06:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * ...even those articles which already have images ;) Dysprosia 08:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Brian Martin (professor)
While looking for Brian Ross Martin, I came across Brian Martin (professor). It's an article about an associate professor at the University of Wollongong who is anti-war. In its current state, it reads almost like a vanity article advertising rather than describing Brian's POV. Googling reveals that he has been mentioned in overseas unis and has sometimes appeared on the ABC. Should the article be cleaned up, or deleted as pacifismcruft? Andjam 12:42, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks like it's worth keeping, if cleaned up. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 14:21, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Might qualify under one or two criteria under Notability (academics). The article in its present form doesn't really provide enough information to judge. Gimboid13 10:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Cane Toad call
If someone lives in an area infested with Cane Toads, and has the appropriate equipment, could you please record the Cane Toad's mating call. It isn't required quickly, it would just accompany the article really well. Thanks. --liquidGhoul 06:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

New Liberals
Would it be worthwhile having an article about the proposed merger between the Liberal Party and the National Party in Queensland or is it too early as yet? It is getting a lot of media attention. Capitalistroadster 13:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The media attention should fade within a week - this has been proposed many times before. michael talk 14:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It might be worthwhile from an historical point of view. The rhetoric for this proposal was un-usually strong – a "committment" to merge was stated.--cj | talk 07:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it wouldn't hurt - it would be interesting for the historical record, for the reason CJ points out. Rebecca 10:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Coalition (Australia) would probably be a better place to write about it. Andjam 03:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think its worthy of any attention. Just the tiniest blip of the political radar. michael talk 03:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Victoria
User:Strum that guitar has taken it upon themselves to move without discussion Victoria to Victoria (disambiguation) and to cut-and-paste Victoria (Australia) to Victoria. I have reverted cut-and-paste action, and am about to move Victoria (disambiguation) back to Victoria. Once the previous order is restored, I think we should discuss whether or not Victoria (Australia) would be more appropriately named simply Victoria.--cj | talk 09:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think every one of us would prefer the simple article title "Victoria", but there are too many notable "Victoria"s for ours to deserve that spot. That would have been the rationale when this was originally decided and I think it still stands. &mdash; Donama 11:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Donama. In Canada, it means Victoria, British Columbia, in Hong Kong it's Victoria City and in the UK it may mean Victoria of the United Kingdom, after whom most others were named. Thanks cj for undoing the changes. --Scott Davis Talk 15:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm guessing Victoria, Australia is a heavily used redirect, and a move from Victoria (Australia) to the former is required. A great deal of articles linking to Victoria (Australia) end up there via a redirect from Victoria, Australia. When editing new Victorian articles, most don't usually think to include the brackets and create links to the redirect of Victoria, Australia. These articles are then fixed at a later date by an experienced editor who adjusts the link directly to the actual article. Why don't we just move the page? For readability, a lot of articles refer directly to Victoria, Australia rather than Victoria (Australia).


 * I found examples in the first three articles I checked where the text reads V, A but links to V (A),
 * Moliagul is a small township in Victoria, Australia...
 * Bendigo (-36.75°N, 144.26667°W) is a regional city in central Victoria...
 * Bairnsdale is a city in Gippsland, Victoria, Australia...


 * -- Longhair 21:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I support the move proposed by Longhair, though there will be a lot of fixing of double redirects.  I had fixed the Moliagul redirect independently this morning (a propos of gold rush editing).  It is easier to type one comma rather than two brackets and it is more intuive and in line with Australian place naming convention generally. A Y Arktos\talk 22:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I was thinking the job of fixing redirects would be suited nicely to a bot if anyone operates one capable of doing so. -- Longhair 22:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Firstly, there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that Victoria has to be a dissambiguation page as there is no one Victoria that without doubt stands above the rest, so well done cj for a swiftly cleaning this one up. Now in regards to move, I actually suggested this move back in August last year, and was correctly pointed out by Xtra that Victoria is its own jurisdiction and not just a place within a country (see here) and that the "(Australia)" is to dissambiguate it from other places, people, things etc called Victoria. However, I would like to support to move that Randwicked suggested (also back in August) that we move the page to Victoria (Australian state) similar to Georgia (U.S. state), because, as rightly stated by Randwicked, in its current form it suggests this Victoria is type of Australia rather than a state within Australia. -- Ianblair23 (talk) 23:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I do not support the move to Victoria (Australian state). I do not accept the rationale that because it is a jurisdiction it shoudl be indicated by brackets rather than a comma.  Over 1000 items link to Victoria, Australia, the policy on naming conventions at Naming conventions states "what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Linking to the state of Victoria is made easy and second nature with the use of a comma, not "Australian State" in brackets.  This is evidenced by continued usage of the urrently deprecated form.--A Y Arktos\talk 23:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I feel moving to Victoria (Australian state) is aiming for 'correctness', whereas the format of Victoria, Australia makes perfect sense as per naming conventions. It's second nature to use a comma, not brackets, which I myself sometimes confuse when wiki-linking and seeing so many together ))]]. I agree entirely with Xtra in that Victoria is its own jurisdiction and not just a place within a country however I still feel strongly in favour of moving to the comma-delimited format. -- Longhair 23:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I suspect that Georgia (U.S. state) is not at Georgia (United States) because that title would fail to disambiguate between the state and the historic province. As such, I don't see a compelling reason to follow their example.
 * I'm also not sure I understand the "Victoria is a jurisdiction" argument. I accept the point that Victoria is a jurisdiction and Bendigo is not, but I don't see how that fact implies that it is okay to locate the article on Bendigo at Bendigo, Victoria but not to locate the article on Victoria at Victoria, Australia. Snottygobble 02:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Whether it's Victoria, Australia or Victoria (Australia) or Victoria (Australian state), please document the final decision it at WP:ACAT and the way the consensus was reached so we can easily point people to it later. &mdash; Donama 01:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Whichever name is chosen/kept, there's a big job to correct all the links&mdash;there are over 3000 links to Victoria (Australia). Personally, I don't think any of these names should be used very often without a piped link - they rarely look like natural English. I think that towns are the only things routinely disambiguated with a comma rather than parentheses providing the context. I think the current form is best - i found this quote in Naming conventions (places): For place names, the use of simple parenthetical terms such as "(district)", "(province)", "(town)", or "(village)", instead of administrive divisions, is deprecated (not recommended). so I believe that (Australia) in parentheses is the simplest and best. --Scott Davis Talk 02:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree that its better to write (Australia) than (Australian state) because its obvious that if its the Australian victoria than it means the state. Its seems unusual to say "Victoria, Australia" in Australia, so it looks better to have it as Victoria (Australia). Also with the comma it makes it look like they all should have the same system (Tasmania, Australia), whereas the brackets look like its something that needs disambguating --Astrokey 44 06:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * We should get someone to run a bot correcting links when a decision on the chosen name is arrived at. Harr o 5 07:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * +1 Harro ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ -  (waarom? jus'b'coz!)  07:56, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I support Victoria, Australia (comma seems to work well for the US) over Victoria (Australia) but definitely not just plain Victoria. pfctdayelise (translate?) 16:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Australian Dictionary of Biography Online
For those interested in writing bios for Australian people deceased before 1980, The Australian Dictionary of Biography appears to be up and running. Don't counfuse this ANU site, with the public domain Percival Steel book hosted by Project Gutenberg, normal copyright restrictions apply to the text. --Peta 06:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I've been waiting for this to come online for ages, but now that it has I find myself a bit disappointed. The articles are short, and many were written in the 60s. Still, I suppose it will provide a good starting point for research into articles as-yet-unwritten. Snottygobble 06:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * This has the potential to be very useful. If nothing else, it will be a very useful starting point for people prominent in the earlier parts of Australian history. Last night, I wrote an article on Neville Amadio who was a notable Australian flautist who died on Monday. I had the impression that his uncle John Amadio who taught him the flute was notable but wasn't quite sure. His Australian Dictionary of Biography article makes it quite clear see [[User:Capitalistroadster|Capitalistroadster] 08:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It's down at the moment, so I'll have to have a look later. It could be quite a useful resource for tracking down people who should really have articles but don't. Rebecca 04:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

History details
Does anyone know a a good place to find the dates of foundation for Australian cities and towns?--Peta 05:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The book Australians: Events and Places published by Fairfax, Syme & Weldon Associates in 1987, has a gazeteer including key historical dates for all cities and many towns. It isn't online though.--A Y Arktos\talk 08:39, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Islands of Australia
For those interested, have a look at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Islands_of_Australia catagories.

I have attempted to map and enter every island from Townsville up to and including all islands of the Torres Strait. Included in each entry is the traditional name as per Geoscience Australia website and coordinates with links to Maps and aerial photos; o WikiSatellite view at WikiMapia o Street maps from Google Maps or Street Directory or MSN Maps or Multimap. o Satellite photos from Google Maps and Terraserver. Where a traditional name is used, I have created a seperate entry with a redirect to the main entry.

I envisage a template for Islands may be needed and the catagory probably needs resorting. Most islands are Qld geo stubs.

If you know anything about Marine Parks, Protected areas, Aboriginal language and tribal names, WW2 military history, protected species, Torres Strait islands, Shipwrecks, case law etc.. Please assist to contribute to these stubs/articles.

Peter --Phenss 09:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Elizabeth Macarthur
As I am getting in a revert war with two enthusiastic non-Australian admins on her, who have twice speedily deleted her a s non-notable?!? - anybody else like to take a look at Elizabeth Macarthur, Second Fleet (Australia), Camden Park, New South Wales and John Macarthur (wool pioneer)?--A Y Arktos\talk 04:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * By the way should I have gone through DRV to recreate? I was not the original creator of the article.--A Y Arktos\talk 04:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * She may be notable, but the article doesn't really give any clues on why. Seems her husband was though. I assume she took over whilst her husband was in exile, giving her the claim to fame that his hard work was just as much hers as well? -- Longhair 04:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd just merge any info about her into John Macarthur's article and redirect. Harr o 5 05:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have looked through the articles as well, and I don't see any individual notability. Group notability (founding uh... group) or notbaility by association (with husband) is better dealt elsewhere. Either she was the subject of individual scholarly works, etc., or she doesn't deserve an article. And yes, of course you should have gone through DRV. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 05:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, when her husband John was in Sydney running the Rum Rebellion and subsequently in exile in England, Elizabeth ran the farm (Elizabeth Farm), single-handedly developing the merino stock (the only one in Australia) and running the rest of the property, which also was a succssful wheat farm. John came back and took the credit when it became successful. There are certain circles who think that John should be stripped of his title as the "father" of the Australian wool industry, and that the crown should instead be handed to Elizabeth. The article is poorly worded at the moment, but she is definitely notable and after exams I'd be happy to come back and expand it. --bainer (talk) 06:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * She gets her own entry in the Australian Dictionary of Biography - which is a scholarly work produced by the Australian National University and the University of Melbourne.  She is also the sole subject of at least three books . I think meets criteria for notability as "the subject of individual scholarly works"--A Y Arktos\talk 06:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I say keep the article, per AYArktos. Rebecca 06:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The article is now a good article. Longhair has even tracked down a photo of Elizabeth Farm. Capitalistroadster 02:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * From now on let's cancel WP:ACOTF and just get someone to randomly speedy a random Australian article. --bainer (talk) 03:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Mining in Australia is new ACOTF
Australian Football Hall of Fame was Australian collaboration for the last fortnight.
 * 4 contributors made 17 edits. The new daughter article List of Australian Football Hall of Fame inductees also received 17 edits.
 * The article decreased from 7.8 kb to 5.1 kb, but the total of the two articles increased to a total of 12.9 kb - 65% longer
 * See how it changed

Mining in Australia has now been selected. Please try to improve it in any way you can. Thanks. --Scott Davis Talk 13:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Requested move: Dreamtime (mythology) → Tjukurpa
There is a requested move listed at Requested moves that proposes the move Dreamtime (mythology) → Tjukurpa. To contribute to the discussion related to this move see Talk:Dreamtime (mythology). Regards, User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 00:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

List of Australia-related topics
This article looks very bare. I was going to give it a shot and attempt an expansion, then realised Australian related categories may already be doing the intended role this article attempts to perform. What do other editors think? Does this page serve any useful purpose? -- Longhair 07:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Having started a wikipedia from scratch, it reminds of the lists one has when starting out, serving as a useful reminder of what needs to be written about etc., but invariably with time they become out of date when compared to the relevant categories and consequently become redundant. A relevant question: is a user of wikipedia as likely to look up Australian-related topics using this list as the myriad of Australian-related categories?  If the answer is yes (and I really don't know one way or the other), then a case in favour might be arguable.  ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ -  (waarom? jus'b'coz!)  07:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It could serve a useful purpose if set up properly - IIRC, the Irish one was a really good example, as a means of giving a good overview of major national topics. That said, it is a lot of work, and now that categories are so prominent I'm not sure about it. Rebecca 08:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It could probably complement the categories (and Portal:Australia) nicely, if it were set up properly. A flat list can be organised in any way we see fit. For example, it could list a handful of the really important topics in each of the main categories (the ones that are listed at the top of the portal: culture, economy, geography, government, history, law, nature, people, politics, society) which basically correspond to the sections on the main article Australia. It could also link to important subcategories. The one avdantage lists have over categories in this context is the possibilities for being able to point out which articles are really important. --bainer (talk) 08:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't see the point when categories perform a similar function dynamically. It is likely to always be out of date. --A Y Arktos\talk 09:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It isn't intending to be a complete list, only a list of the most important topics, all of which we probably have articles on by now, so I don't know that it being out of date is an issue. Whether someone can be bothered putting it together, however, is another matter entirely. Rebecca 09:26, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What about a table incorporating the links from some of the key templates we use - for example, each column is a state and trhe first is Australia and we have links to the series. We have a template for History of Australia/States - these links would form one row of the table.  Other templates should be at Category:Australian navigational boxes and might inspire the content of this list.--A Y Arktos\talk 09:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The point about the portal is a good one. A list of important Australian-related articles might be useful for someone stumbling across the portal or who uses the portal regularly for navigation.  I can see an advantage there.  ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ -  (waarom? jus'b'coz!)  10:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

If somebody does get around to over-hauling the list, it would be appreciated if they could also fix up Template:Australia topics and Portal:Australia/Topics.--cj | talk 08:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Danny Nalliah
Editing between me and Rebecca at Danny Nalliah has been less than harmonious. Would anyone be interested in giving a third opinion on my recent edits? Thanks, Andjam 11:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have removed the sentence in the intro about conservative and inflammatory remarks as they have NPOV problems and specified that the religious vilification case was in relation to Muslims. Capitalistroadster 03:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Help with Australians I've never heard of before?
 are both from an anon that has a history of vandalism, and google doesn't seem to know anything about either of these people. So if someone here can confirm that either exists, I'd appreciate it. If I'm incorrect, please revert my reversions. Thanks. JoshuaZ 04:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd guess it is a joke then. I've never heard of them. Having said that, I don't know anything about speedway racing, only F1, but it is hardly in the news anyway. Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 04:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Neither have I, but then I wouldn't really be that aware of motorcycle racing greats. Definitely the second one is false. &mdash; Donama 04:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Luke Bowell is not an Australian billionaire and a search of Australia and New Zealand media over the past few years comes up with no-one of this name. There are two references to a Matt Priest - one in relation to a New Zealand constable reporting the death of an Australian climber and the other about the drummer of English band Dodgy. The second article was titled "Nothing Dodgy about these lads". The same cannot be said of these edits. Capitalistroadster 08:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)Capitalistroadster 07:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Australia-related FPs
Hello, I'm trying to collect about 10 FP or FP-like pictures suitable for bundling together as a themed "computer wallpaper pack". I want to get 10 Australian ones so I'm looking for suggestions here. Some requirements: made by a Wikimedian, no people (just to totally avoid any legal dramas), high res, landscape layout, suitable kinda desktop background feel (shouldn't be too busy, maybe, or too much contrast), good ID information (location/species) and of course they should be fairly evocative of Australia somehow. Because of the wallpaper thing I don't think panoramas work very well, unfortunately.

Something like these would be good...

Sorry if I've flooded you --Fir0002 11:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions. If anyone finds or thinks of any more, please let me know. pfctdayelise (translate?) 10:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW I welcome comments on selection. I just went through Commons and found a ton more. See here: commons:User:Pfctdayelise/Commons:Packs (please comment on the talk page) pfctdayelise (translate?) 12:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for compiling these. It's been a relative gold mine for selected pictures at the Australia Portal.--cj | talk 08:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey cobbers...
It pains me as a Kiwi - as you would understand - to have to point out that the Australian literature article sucks bigtime. Why don't you guys make it a collaboration to bring it up to scratch. Just a friendly dig from over the ditch (from someone who treasures an autographed copy of Poor Fellow My Country ). Moriori 06:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Given our record in other cultural matters, we should probably just claim New Zealand literature as our own. ;o) ～J.K. 13:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikimedia Australia
The third meeting about the proposed Australian Wikimedia chapter took place today. See the summary or full log on Meta, and sign up for the next meeting, which will be in about a month from now. Angela. 14:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

AUSTRALIA DEFEATS JAPAN 3-1
Dmharvey 14:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Now that was a good game =) Where's the article? enochlau (talk) 14:58, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I had forgotten how stressful watching soccer could be. Geez.. heart in mouth the whole time.--cj | talk 15:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * GO AUSSIES!!! :D michael talk 15:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It was definitely worth watching. Good, positive attacking football from both sides. Pity about all those yellows though. Accumulating two of them will get a 1 match suspension. Wilkshire doesn't seem to offer anything - why does he get to play? Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 05:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Australia national football (soccer) team is the article... probably --Sumple (Talk) 05:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * And 2006 FIFA World Cup - Group F as well. -- Chuq 07:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Is an Australia at the 2006 FIFA World Cup article appropriate? Capitalistroadster 07:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it would be - according to Category:2006 FIFA World Cup, a few other countries have such articles. -- Chuq 13:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Why can't they play the World Cup in summer? There are few crueler punishments than having to be walking around Canberra at 1am in the middle of winter! Rebecca 06:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It is played in summer! At least the briskness helps keep one awake.   ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ -  (waarom? jus'b'coz!)  07:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * They play A-League games in summer ;) -- Chuq 07:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Now, now, I'm not that fanatical. As soon as we lose, I go back to watching netball and netball only. ;) Rebecca 07:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The World Cup is being played in the Northern Hemisphere's (a.k.a. Germany's) summer. Unfortunately that means we have to watch it in the freezing cold. Harryboyles 07:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It was -5 last night in Canberra. I was well rugged up in my lounge room with the heaters going full blast last night. It will be an interesting challenge if Australia ever holds a World Cup. Capitalistroadster 07:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * With 32 years between appearances, I doubt we'll be hosting a cup anytime soon. But by then global warming will have made winter quite balmy, so it should all work out. --bainer (talk) 07:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You never know - South Africa is hosting the next one, and I think their World Cup record is as bad as ours. -- Chuq 13:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, yes, but to be fair a lot of that's due to apartheid-era bans on them competing at all. ～J.K. 08:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There's also an article on wikinews at Australian_late_scores_down_Japan_3-1_in_Group_F Confusing Manifestation 09:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Not a bad game at all! Werdna (talk) 00:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Woodbrook Heights
Could some Aussies please take a look at this article and verify if the complaint by the anon is indeed correct? Please let me know how this turns out by leaving a note on my talk page. - Mgm|(talk) 09:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The Geographical Names Board confirms that there is no such place in New South Wales. This still doesn't make it a CSD, as I understand it, so I have replaced the tag with a prod tag. JPD (talk) 09:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Australian Dictionary of Sydney
Hi all, figured you might be interested in The Dictionary of Sydney, a new joint project of the City of Sydney, The University of Sydney, NSW State Records department, the Univesity of Technology Sydney (UTS) and the NSW State Library. - Ta bu shi da yu 22:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You can even contribute if they accept you - supply name, address, topic and explain why you are hte best person to write on this topic - how twentieth century!--A Y Arktos\talk 22:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Gangs at Narre Warren South, Victoria
Hello everybody. I have received a complaint about my repeated deletion of a reference to a local gang, which is referenced to the gang's website. I am unconvinced as to the gang's verifiability, as it is using its own website as a source, and also as to the encyclopedic content. The user filing this was User:Morgan Leigh. Many thanks, Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 03:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC).

I asked two questions relating to this issue, neither of which have been answered. One is how Blnguyen ascertained that the info was (or was not) posted by a gang member. The second is why it matters? To say that if a gang member references their gang website this somehow diminishes the veracity of the info is like saying that if I am in a given political party and I add a link to that party's web site then that info is not valid. BTW I am not affiliated with this gang.

Morgan Leigh 05:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You need to provide independent evidence that the gang exists and is notable. The gang website does not do so. Snottygobble 05:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems a bit odd to me to say that someone's web site is not evidence of their existence. Sure, anyone can put up a website and then write a wikipedia page about it. This might be a bit of shameless self promotion, however it does not change the fact that the info is still accurate i.e. the website exists and the wikipedia page describes it. In this case the gang has a web site and this info has been added to the page. Self promotion does not (necessarily) equal bad info.

I note that no one has yet answered my two questions. I also note that when this info was first put up on the Narre Warren South page it was poorly composed and edited. However since I engaged with the poster on the talk page they have acted on my suggestions and added more info. Since various people have come in and simply removed or reverted info the user has stopped responding. I think that this is all a bit nit picky and is discouraging to a new user who is making an effort to learn about wikipedia.

Morgan Leigh 13:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems a bit odd to me to say that someone's web site is evidence of their existence. I could create a website today claiming to be a leprechaun. Would you then hold that website up as indisputable proof that leprechaun's exist? I thought not. Then why do you think some website purporting to be the homepage of a gang constitutes proof that the gang exists and is notable? Snottygobble 00:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I did not say it is indisputable proof of anything. There are many pages on wikipedia that are about websites. If a web page exists one can logically deduce that someone made it. If that someone sticks up their hand and says 'this is my website and it proves I exist' then what's the bother there? Maybe these guys are not world shatteringly famous (ok maybe they are not famous at all) However I also don't see the harm in allowing what may well be a vanity paragraph in an otherwise dull page in the unfashionable western spiral arm of wikipedia, if it encourages someone to learn something. This is how how wikipedia works. We who use wikipedia are not here for a power trip. We are here to build wikipedia. I note that no one but my humble worthless self has actually engaged with these guys on the talk page. Everyone else has simply deleted their efforts and posted to user talk pages or wikipedian notice boards, either of which I would be prepared to put money on that these newbies don't even know exists. This is not about me thinking leprechauns exist. This is about power tripping new users instead of helping them.

Morgan Leigh 01:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Let's not forget the Westside Turks fiasco, either. --Calair 01:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Citations (of a sort) in Column 8
The Sydney Morning Herald's long-running Column 8 has mentioned "Whacko-pedia" twice now, in both cases basically saying "we want people using their own resources to answer other readers' apparently unsolvable questions, not some website". I'm still not sure if this is a good thing or not. Confusing Manifestation 14:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe column 8 sees wikipedia as competition in their niche. Andjam 14:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I sometimes enjoy Column 8 but am always a bit disappointed when things are attacked or derided by anyone. The second instance of derision though definitely sets us a challenge with "That was far too easy. The next question will be rated, as they say on the sudoku page, "diabolical", and no reference book, let alone Whacko-pedia, will be of any assistance whatsoever. Leave it with us."  Can we manage to assist? If so, how quickly? As of 15 June, Column Eight is still working on the "Ultimate Question".  One can only assume the columnist is researching it here to check that we are not available as a source :-) --A Y Arktos\talk 01:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I suspect it's not so much about competition, as "old dog, new tricks" - I don't know any specifics about the new editor, but my understanding is that the job is generally given to one of the paper's veterans who's looking for something less hectic, and I wouldn't be surprised if a certain amount of Luddism came with that. --Calair 01:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, if they're saying we give correct answers, shouldn't we take that as a compliment? enochlau (talk) 02:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * At least they assume we are a useful resource for solving questions. By the way, Yahoo! Answers now offers the options to search Wikipedia for people answering questions. Capitalistroadster 02:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Column 8 and 16 June

 * No question yet - can only assume Wikipedia has all the answers :-). However, the columnist reports with glee - see http://www.smh.com.au/column8/ - On the subject of Column 8 getting all hurrumphy about using the internet to answer questions, we take heart from Steve Barrett, of Glenbrook. "My daughter, Sophie, is studying for a communications degree at UTS," he writes, "and one of her lecturers told the students that they must not use Wikipedia as reference material, given that the subject matter may be inaccurate." Ah, how sweet it is … In my day we didn't use World Book encyclopaedia or the Britannica either at university, nor even in high school - not a question of accuracy but of depth - we didn't have to be told not to either!--A Y Arktos\talk 21:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * ACK AYArktos (you would hope with WP:NOR, there was nothing much to cite anyway). Dunno why they're so defensive. I'm sure WP is still one of the first stops for all their journos. (Oh. Maybe that's why. ;)) --pfctdayelise (translate?) 21:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it possible to see what contributions are coming from UTS's ISP to see if any anon IPs from there are vandalising wikipedia? I've heard of a lecturer vandalising wikipedia to prove his/her point. Andjam 22:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * What's the UTS IP address? Do they have a single exit point for port 80 traffic like Usyd or will we need to look for a range of addresses? enochlau (talk) 03:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Australian usage - motor vehicles, cars vs automobiles
The category category:Automobile manufacturers of Australia has been superseded by category:Motor manufacturers of Australia. My impression was that "Automobile manufacturers" whilst not necesarily common Australian usage, is better understood in Australia than "Motor manufacturers", which on first reading I thought of engines, as motor is not generally read as "motor vehicle". Also Australian usage may exclude those manufactuers of "motor bodies" such as Bolwell and Elfin. Thoughts please Paul foord 11:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I happened to come across this on CfD the other day and I was quite surprised. Surely if we were aiming for typical Australian usage we would use "car manufacturers"? --bainer (talk) 13:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks like I was too late to vote this time, but I agree that it should be "car manufacturers" or perhaps "vehicle manufacturers" to more accurately include manufacturers of motorbikes, trucks, military vehicles. --Scott Davis Talk 01:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * In hindsight, Paul's suggestion on my user talk page that "Motor vehicle manufacturers" would have been a better name is probably right. "Car manufacturers" was debated when this came up on CFD and was roundly voted down, unfortunately. Perhaps this will be worth renominating for change to category:Motor vehicle manufacturers of Australia (along with the equivalent categories for New Zealand, South Africa and the UK, plus the UK subcategory "Defunct...", but not until the dust has settled on this one, which was a quite fiery cfd one way and another. Give it a month or so. Grutness...wha?  01:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Australia and Version 0.5
I've created in my sandbox a list of Australia-related FAs by their wikipedia version 0.5 status (ie accepted, held on importance grounds, in nomination, not nominated). Are there any Aussie FAs that haven't been nominated that should be? Andjam 23:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I hate to say it, but Kylie Minogue stands out for me. Surely she is sufficiently culturally important. Perhaps also the The Ashes. I would support Eureka Stockade, but I don't know if we could convince the rest of the world. Snottygobble 01:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd agree that those pointed out by Snottygobble would make for good nominations.--cj | talk 02:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have seen Kylie Minogue used as a Feature Article. I would think that we could make a good case for the importance of the Eureka Stockade in Australian history to warrant a Feature Article if its quality was up to scratch. We have good Featured Articles on much more obscure topics than that. Capitalistroadster 03:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Regarding timing, the Ashes would be good for November and the Eureka Stockade would be good for December 3 or thereabouts. Capitalistroadster 03:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * All the articles on Andjam's list are already FAs; the issue is whether they merit inclusion in Version 0.5. Snottygobble 03:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * All three for mine then. Capitalistroadster 04:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

MacRobertson's
This article on the well-known sweet maker was nominated for speedy deletion. I have removed the nomination and moved it from Mac Robertson's. I have tidied it up a bit, added categories and a stub put a cleanup notice on it. I was seeking feedback as to whether that was the most appropriate name for it. Capitalistroadster 04:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest MacRobertson (company). MacRobertson's is the possessive for their sweets and chocs Steve 04:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thomas McCosker
The article Thomas McCosker was recently proposed for deletion, which was subsequently contested. Would anyone be interested in having a look at the article and giving their view on his noteworthiness, and how the article can be improved? Thanks, Andjam 04:07, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It doesn't seem at all notable to me. I'd nominate it for AfD. Harr o 5 04:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you wish to explain why you feel he isn't notable? Also, AfD isn't a debating club - you shouldn't list something to allow for needed debate, you should only list something if you're sure it should be deleted. There's a template you can use if you're uncertain of notability but not sure if you think it should be deleted. Andjam 10:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Adam Carr accused of using wikipedia as "dirt file"
Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom/Suggestions

If you follow the Wikilink, you'll note that I strongly object to the article's claims that User:Adam Carr has been using Wikipedia for such a purpose, and am personally writing to the Herald Sun (which is where the article has appeared thus far) to say so. --Robert Merkel 06:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I have seen plenty of dirt flinging on Wikipedia in relation to Australian politicians, but none of it from Adam. Xtra 06:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well put. To me, this just looks like an attempt at smearing by proxy from a couple of would-be factional warriors. Rebecca 06:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I feel the News article is fairly NPOV, and that the MPs complaining are the main problem. Andjam 08:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Everyone on Wikipedia knows this is nonsense and that the remaining info is sourced, and Adam is unfazed, so this is thankfully a very small dint in our project's armour. Harr o 5 09:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * There's also an article in yesterday's Sunday Herald Sun (Page 26). Apologies if this is covered elsewhere. I've been on wiki-break for the past week or so and only noticed the article during my flight home last night. Keep up your good work Adam. You of all people certainly know that politics is a game politicians play. I've only ever witnessed fair and just contributions coming from Adam, and shame on those who say otherwise. -- Longhair 07:42, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * In the signpost Wikipedia Signpost/2006-06-19/Adam Carr--A Y Arktos\talk 00:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Census in Australia is the new ACOTF
The new Australian Collaboration is Census in Australia.

Mining in Australia was ACOTF from 4 June 2006 to 18 June 2006
 * 10 contributors made 47 edits
 * The article increased from nothing to 10.9 kb
 * See how it looked at the end

Thankyou to those who helped to create a new article. We should attempt to keep it going to at least Good Article status. There were also a number of new categories created at Category:Mining in Australia and its subcategories, and a navigation template. Other related articles might also have been improved as a consequence of people reading them while having the relevent references nearby. Thankyou all. --Scott Davis Talk 11:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Gundagai
Hi - would somebody like to look at Talk:Gundagai, New South Wales. Deep breath on my part. I wil attempt to reorganise the anon's contributions to the dialogue again despite the talk header - but I think I really need somebody else to review whether I and another editor are missing the point.--A Y Arktos\talk 23:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks like the anon has lost interest, but I think you were entirely reasonable in standing on 'cite sources' there. If it can be documented that there are widespread rumours of a massacre, that might be worth noting, but as it stands all we have is an anon editor's say-so that it's even alleged to have happened. --Calair 00:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I am involved with the Coolac project (but I am retiring on Friday). Guardedly I can confirm that there is nothing verifiable on the public record about the alleged massacre. The RTA is preparing a heritage report (under s87 and s90 of the National Parks and Wildlife Act 1974) to allow the Coolac bypass to go ahead, which no doubt will comment on this issue and which presumably it will put on the record (possibly at ) when it is finalised, but this is some time off. You will be able to judge then whether any new and verifiable evidence has come to light. Tenders for the Coolac Bypass closed on 11/5/05 and the contract has not been awarded; you might note Hansard 24/5/06 pp50-51.--Grahamec 13:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have done a search of verifiable evidence through the ACT Public Library Service. I have found one reference an ABC News story from September 2005 about claims of a massacre used as a possible reason to defer a bypass. I have left further information on the talk page. Capitalistroadster 02:47, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for researching the Gundagai/Coolac issue. It is so hard when one finds nothing to cite the absence of sources.  The Coolac bypass is relevant as I assume that is the area 9 miles from Gundagai.  However, beyond the bypass issues, what does anyone think of the notion of symbolism and the Dog on the Tuckerbox?  I couldn't find a picture of any earlier monument through Picture Australia or any reference to it via Google.  Does anyone have the book 1932: A Hell Of A Year by Gerald Stone? It may mention if there was a previous monument to the present one opened in 1932.  --A Y Arktos\talk 00:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I can confrim that 9 miles north of Gundagai would be on the banks of Muttama creek, the alleged site of the massacre. There is nothing in the wrtitten record to substantiate the claim (but then you could argue that this proves nothing).  The trouble is that any archaeological escavation is unlikley to find anything, because (assuming there was a massacre)

The story about the symbolism of the dog sounds like an urban myth to me. --Grahamec 00:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * it did not occur in the proposed road corridor;
 * bodies were buried elsewhere; or
 * bodies were not buried and therefore decomposed quickly.

Harry's Cafe de Wheels
Hello. Is this cafe notable? A new user has created this page and then linked to it from the Wooloomoloo page.Blnguyen | rant-line 01:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've only ever been a visitor to Sydney, but I'd suggest yes, it's a very notable landmark. I live 12 hours away by road and I'm aware of the cafe. It's actually a long standing pie caravan on the Wooloomoloo shore-line, which is (or was) regularly visited by a number of A-list Hollywood stars such as Kidman, Cruise, Crowe and the like. The caravan has some history which the walls of the caravan reveal by way of many newspaper clippings. I don't have any photographs handy however but it's not just your run of the mill local late night hamburger haunt. Tour guides at Centrepoint Tower in the city make a note of mentioning the cafe's notability, and pointing it out to tourists from the view up high. -- Longhair 02:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It is notable. 21,000 Google hits and 115 newspaper references. I'm from Canberra and I've heard of it. It has been operating since 1945. Capitalistroadster 02:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * As a Sydney resident, yes it is notable as a Sydney institution --Steve 02:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * But I did move it to Harry's Cafe de Wheels (with capitalisation) --Steve 02:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Not everything with "wheels" in its name is vandalism.

Is the cafe in the Warrumbunglers comic strip also nominally mobile? Andjam 12:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Financial system
I have found two long-neglected articles hardly linked from anywhere: Financial system in Australia and Banks of Australia. Does anyone know if there's already a comprehensive article covering this space, or should I build them up and nominate them for collaboration? Thanks. --Scott Davis Talk 09:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC) I have had a look around and it doesn't seem we have anything else that covers these. They may be potential collaborations. Capitalistroadster 10:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Tanya Harding
I recently came across the uncyclopedia article on Tonya Harding, and suspected that the part about her competing for Australia at the Olympics in softball was based on something real. A google search confirmed that Tanya Harding played softball for Australia. Wikipedia merely had Tanya Harding as a redirect for Tonya Harding. I was almost tempted to cite uncyclopedia.

Any softball fans? Andjam 04:49, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a softball fan but UCLA are claiming that she was a member of the silver medal winning softball team in Athens playing as a pitcher. . Her website claims that she has won a couple of bronze medals as well see There are over 100 hits on an Australia New Zealand media database for her. Tanya Harding has had more success as an athlete than Tonya Harding although Tonya is more famous. Capitalistroadster 07:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Football... again (sorry)
Hi, just a quick word to point out I've listed Category: Football venues in Australia at categories for renaming, as it is (I think) the last remaining category that doesn't conform to the "football (soccer)" precedent set here some time ago. Thanks. – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 07:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of images with outdated copyright templates
Can someone advise what we can do to save images such as this one, which is used at Battle of Long Tan? I don't really understand the suspicion surrounding certain templates, but I guess we can't fight city hall on this one. Any ideas on what the correct template for recent images from govt sources might be? How about ? Grant65 | Talk 10:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The Long Tan image is not copyright free.  does not apply.  You could perhaps use fair use - see Fair use and Image copyright tags--A Y Arktos\talk 10:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * A long time ago, I recall editing commons:Licensing as an easy reference to find out what is copyrighted and what is not. It would be helpful if someone could write a summary of how the Australian equivalent of "fair use" (I forget exactly what it is called) applies to Australian-created works on Wikipedia. &mdash; Donama 12:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You're referring to fair dealing... that's not really applicable, since Wikimedia is all based in Florida, United States law applies to us. Someone may want to make a claim to use the image under fair use, as A Y Arktos said. --bainer (talk) 13:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Clinton Haines
Can I have some opinions on the notability of this chap please? An author of several computer viruses (going to be difficult to verify I think), and died at 21 of a heroin overdose. I'll let you make your own mind up. -- Longhair 06:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It is difficult to verify. I could find no references to him in the media or other verifiable sources available through the ACT Library. The source provided doesn't seem to qualify as a reliable source under verifiability. May well qualify as a candidate for deletion. Capitalistroadster 07:38, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * This does appear to be real. This article was indeed published in the Sydney Morning Herald on May 6, 1997 (under the title of "Death Of The Virus King"), as verified by Factiva. Also note this page, which would appear to confirm the authenticity of the memorial virus. That said, I make no judgement as to whether this is actually notable. Rebecca 07:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Your second f-secure.com link is broken Rebecca. -- Longhair 07:56, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it sound verfiable. I tried an Aus/NZ newspaper database but they only had the SMH back to 1999 so they didn't have it online. Still sounds reasonable, especially with the f-secure link. I thought it was an interesting play between computer virus writer and microbiologist for a while but it does sound reputable. The newsletter that it was published in has a long history as a hacker type publication, so seems reliable enough to me as a source. Ans e ll  08:03, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

A couple of suggestions re: MP articles
After a couple of incidents in the last week with inaccurate, biased and potentially libelous statements in a couple of articles about MPs, it struck me that one of our lingering problems is that our articles about backbenchers aren't receiving much scrutiny. While vandalism and such to John Howard or Kim Beazley might get reverted within a couple of minutes, the same vandalism of an article on a backbencher might last for a couple of weeks or more if no one has it watchlisted. So I thought it might be a good idea to watchlist all the current members of the House and Senate - and in doing so, found four or five statements that need to be shot on sight. I've also been able to promptly revert a couple of statements that were added since. What would some of you think about watchlisting a few more of these MPs so we can keep a closer eye for vandalism and such in future?

Secondly, it also strikes me that a lot of our articles on members of the federal cabinet are, despite their prominence, not particularly good. Quite a few are near-stubs (Truss, Coonan, Minchin, Macfarlane), and a couple have quite major holes in them (Downer, Nelson). I wonder if it might be an idea to create an informal collaboration project (similar to the Canberra one that ran for a while) with the aim of getting these to the point where, if not featured, they at least no longer suck. Rebecca 14:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps have a group of articles as a kind of WP:ACOTF ? -- Chuq 03:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

AUSTRALIA THROUGH TO ROUND OF SIXTEEN
But the ending was kind of weird :-) Dmharvey 20:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * awesome! it was weird, why was that last goal disallowed? --Astrokey 44 21:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Whistle had blown. Slac speak up! 23:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * thats a shame, for a second I thought it was 3-2. what a way to finish that would have been! --Astrokey 44 00:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Why was Simunic (spl?) not sent off? He got like, 3 yellow cards... --Sumple (Talk) 21:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Cause in addition to having trouble telling the difference between hands and upper arms, our esteemed referee also couldn't count. Slac speak up! 23:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think he got sent off because he was shown the red card, but the game was over seconds later. Ans e ll  00:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The point is that he received a total of 3 yellow cards - the 3rd one automatically has to be a red. So he basically got a "free" yellow card thanks to ref error. Slac speak up! 01:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeh officially he got the red card, and for some reason on the official FIFA match report, they ignore the 2nd yellow he got (at 90 minutes)... – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 01:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe their software knows that three yellow cards is impossible. Possibly a 2YC bug. Dmharvey 01:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * According to some, the match report USED to show all three, then the 90' one was removed! -- Chuq 03:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The official commentary on the match also refuses to discuss the issue. They don't even describe the final red card fully. Seems suspicious, or maybe they are formulating a response before putting any official like response down.  Ans e ll  02:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * In addition, the official FIFA match report does not list the 90' yellow. I think there's either been a coverup, or one of the incidents wasn't given a card. Didn't the ref show the first red card guy a second yellow when it seemed it was for Simunic (for pushing the ref), when in actual fact Simunic was not carded (therefore, he only got two). Harr o 5 05:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

GOOOOOOOOOOAL!!!!
YEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Socceroos march on. Can I request someone write the article for English referee Graham Poll? Preferably in blood and requiring a big Wikipedia is not censored banner. Bring on the Azzurri. Harr o 5 21:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Interestingly the Times (UK) have a very good critique of the match, particularly noting the failure of their country man. Ans e ll  23:24, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You forget there's nobody the Brits like to criticise more than themselves. ;o) ～J.K. 05:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * There's also a comprehensive article on him today in The Guardian. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ -  (waarom? jus'b'coz!)  06:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Ted gets a mention
The Wikipedia entry on Ted Baillieu is mentioned in depth in an article in today's The Age. The article mainly refers to a revert war over mentioning the "toff from Toorak" snipe; it's not online yet, but it will be soon, so it might pop up on WP:PRESS or the Signpost next week. Anyway, I've had a go at cleaning up the article with references, but please add anything if it's missing. Harr o 5 00:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Guess it's a slow news day again. This'll be interesting. Rebecca 01:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Age link? I can't find it on the website. pfctdayelise (translate?) 04:44, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Category query
Could someone with knowledge of Wikipedia guidelines or policy take a look at the recently created Category:Seven Sport. Is this a legitimate category, or a backdoor method of advertising programs? What happens to the Summer Olympic Games article for instance, when all Television Stations who broadcast the Games add their call signs to the category list. - Cuddy Wifter 01:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't have a problem with it. It is verifiable, and potentially a useful categorisation. Snottygobble 02:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Potentially useful, how so? Seems a bit suss to me. Imagine if every country did this. :/ Also it needs a parent cat. pfctdayelise (translate?) 04:44, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, Cuddy, it is super dodgy. It appears to have no parent category. Sports on Australian television would be more useful category because if Seven gets taken over by some other company we don't have to change the category name. Categories should not be bound to company name unless it will be notable throughout history. &mdash; Donama 05:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

My view is that the category may have been made in good faith but is a bad idea, rather than being some sinister attempt at advertising. The level of paranoia by some astounds me. Andjam 16:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

West Australia Art Gallery
I went to create a stub on this gallery which is currently a red link for Australian anniversaries. However, a Google search for "West Australia Art Gallery" got 6 pages including an ABC page. Presumably, it is now known as something else. Could any West Australians or people knowledgeable in art tell us what it is so we can fix the link. Capitalistroadster 06:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The official name is Art Gallery of Western Australia. A suitable site to find information on and reference is Art Gallery of Western Australia. I may be able to improve your stub by adding an image when I am able to. Thanks!--Ali K 08:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * For now, I have created West Australia Art Gallery to the Art Gallery of Western Australia. We currently have a stub on it which I am sure can be expanded. Capitalistroadster 10:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

D'oh
A most unsatisfying ending to an inspiring game. Dmharvey 16:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think if this World Cup will be remembered for anything, it'll be the generally abysmal standard of umpiring. We've not been the first country to have our campaign ended purely by a downright bad call. Rebecca 16:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Grrr. enochlau (talk) 17:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It appears that the Italian footballer Fabio Grosso has been the subject of a vandalism attack suggesting he is a diver. Cuddy Wifter 07:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I had to semiprotect the article on the referee last night - the article was copping more vandalism than George W. Bush! Rebecca 07:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Still, ten points to the lads. We've never been able to get this far before, so what they did is a huge achievement in itself. michael talk 07:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, great performance, although it hurts because I believe that we would have had a super chance against Ukraine, who are weak imho. Hopefully the momentum isn't lost with a new coach and probably a few retirements as our squad drops off a lot after the first schoice XI. Blnguyen | rant-line 07:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Speaking about WP articles relating to the WC, most of the Australian team bios have been downgraded in quality recently due to POV screeds and commentary about various WC matters. I'll have to clear out the personal analysis from them, perhaps when it dies down a bit. Blnguyen | rant-line 07:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I also notice the national football team's article being padded out with a lot of game details (the friendlies, group games, and the Italy game) - perhaps these could be shifted out to a 2005-06 in Australian football similar to 2005-06 in English football, or Australia at the 2006 FIFA World Cup? -- Chuq 07:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeh I am looking to start working on seasons in Australian football (soccer) – similar to the English one once I've finished another thing. The whole 2006 WC campaign in the national team article can be cut down to at most two paragraphs - qualifying and the finals. – AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 08:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Battle of states
What do people think of the section of the article States_and_territories_of_Australia, added by an anon this morning? Obvious the formatting needs fixing, but would people have a problem with keeping this kind of information? Some of it has the potential to be a bit POV. -- Chuq 04:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The state beer is POV rubbish, but the state sporting colours should go somewhere --Steve 04:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I was about to say the same thing: nuke the "best beer" bit as inherently POV, and seek references for the state colours bit. Still, it makes an amusing counterpoint with the state and territory statistics immediately above, doesn't it? I think the word is "bathos". Snottygobble 04:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The stuff there should be deleted. The sporting colours indeed should go somewhere. I assume they are on State articles. --Bduke 04:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Isn't there a wikitool for generating sporting kit that we could use for state team colours, wherever they end up? --Steve 05:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Melbourne meetup
Just a reminder - the third Melbourne meetup is taking place today (June 27th), starting at CFI lounge on St. Kilda Road. Angela. 04:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, do Sydneysiders want to meet up? It's been a while since the last meet. enochlau (talk) 12:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well I wasn't even around for the last one, so I'm very much up for it. Confusing Manifestation 12:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)