Wikipedia:Barnstar and award proposals/Archive7

Note to editors
This page is an archive page of the barnstar and award proposals. Move the discussions here and close the file if you can see it has reached concensus (and have actions taken) or it has been abandoned for at least two weeks.


 * The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.  The result of all of the following discussions was ABANDONED

Copyvio busting barnstar
I created this, for those striving to keep wikipedia legal, and defend the rights of creators and authors: for defense of intelectual property. (The image has been greatly improved by User:Essjay). I propose its official adoption -. --Doc ask? 09:06, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * good idea, but already covered by several barnstars. Why not club it with Investigator's barnstar (discussion above) as busting copyvios calls for some investigation? --Gurubrahma 10:04, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps, but copyright (articles and images) is quite distinct speciality, and a growing area. --Doc ask? 10:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think this is exactly covered by other barnstarts, but I also don't support the barnstar in principle. For example, many Wikipedians mindlessly delete images after 7 days because they have no copyright status, even though a simple Google search would reveal that it was a fair use image, logo, etc. This barnstar farther encourages this sort of behaviour, which IMO is inappropriate. -- Ynhockey 20:06, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately (depending on one's philosiphy) that exact behavior is endorsed by Wikipedia policy. I however agree with it because if you are uploading images, you should already have read the copyvio rules, and even if you haven't it says several times right there what you shoudl and shouldn't do.  If a user wants to take it upon him or her self to take the time to verify an image they would be doing a great service, however, to not delete them after their time is up without correct labeling would be counter to wiki-policy.  Also,this barnstar would easily cover the work of those who choose to verify the source of an image.  I propose that a better name would be the Copyright Enforcement Barnstar.-- Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk 07:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


 * That name would be better. If someone is mindlessly enforcing stuff without common sense, then don't give it to them. But this isn't just about images, lots of folk identify, tag and research textual copyvios. --Doc ask? 10:24, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Knight barn star
Here is a nomination for a high-ranking barnstar for only really special peoples: → Aza Toth 17:01, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the crown should reflect the wiki logo globe.evrik 15:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, what do you think about this one (havn't uploaded the svg this time)?

→ Aza Toth 18:44, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * What i think is: 1, it doesn't look like a barnstar at all. 2, therefore it'd be good as a PUA but not a barnstar. Deryck C. 08:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscience Barnstar
The image Depicts a barnstar at risk of toppling off a drooping flat earth.

I propose awarding this in recognition of the defenders of reality against those who would impose the pseudoscience of their belief system. Editors who heroically fend off trolling anons trying to subvert articles on vaccination, medicine (vs. various forms of quackery), government health policies (vs. conspiracy theories), intelligent design being a mask for creationism etc etc come to mind as worthy recipients. This is not just about ensuring SPOV, NPOV or reverting vandalism, but about arguing and defending against trivial minority viewpoints who argue (often eloquently) and post large number of references, most of which are selectively misquoted, do not draw the claimed conclusions, are anecdotal reports rather than null-hypothesis statistically vetted research etc. etc. David Ruben Talk 15:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * As an example of the disproportionate amount of effort some good editors spend in critically assessing references that anon editors should have done themselves to WP:Cite & WP:Verify their own arguments, see Talk:Electroconvulsive therapy#Citations 2. David Ruben Talk 16:01, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I think this can be a PUA. Deryck C. 17:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

New Barnstars
Have made some new, rather big barnstars, as shown here. Havn't thought of a special award for them, you migh perhaps have a idea. → Aza Toth 21:52, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, we have a silver medallion with Angela Beesley, the Silver Wikibuck, so I guess a Jimbo one is the next step... smurray  inch   e  ster  (User), (Talk) 21:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Just for the sake of it, I made a new silver medal :) → Aza Toth 22:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * [[Image:BarnstarGhost.png|thumb|right|Spooky...]] If we're using random barnstars we've made, I've got an old 'ghost' barnstar I made for some reason a while ago but never bothered uploading(I think it was meant to represent a blueprint). It's not too good, but it's semi-transparent. smurray  inch   e  ster  (User), (Talk) 22:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

A Minor Amulet
This image shows a golden amulet with the images of a book, W (for Wikipedia), and "hero", and is a minor file that is meant as a minor award, ie. for someone who helps you quite a bit. Why??? Of the many awards given, the vast majority are for high-grade users, leaving many of the lower-level contributors with no encouragement. Because of its minor size, the heroamulet.jpg is perfect for stacking up...

Yay! This is my first image contribution! -- Yunzhong Hou 04:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I like it. And with it's book image, I'd like to use it at Wikibooks. Gentgeen 00:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Recent Changes/New Pages Barnstar
It's quite self-explanatory really, it's for exemplary monitoring of Recent Changes or New Pages. It's a bit low-quality right now, but it's just a start.




 * How about a 'sparkly' new barnstar, to represent the new pages/edits? [[Image:New pages barnstar blue.png|thumb|right|Sparkly]] [[Image:New pages barnstar red.png|thumb|right|Sparkly]] smurray  inch   e  ster  (User), (Talk) 20:54, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Here is my idea:


 * → Aza Toth 21:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I like the idea, but how about a modern clock face, since the stone-sundial looks a little 'old' for recent changes. smurray  inch   e  ster  (User), (Talk) 22:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Understand, here I made a more modern varian, imitating pastel plastic (P.S. do NOT comment the number tvelve):


 * Hmm, I don't really like the clock (mostly because it's measured in hours, and recent changes is measured by seconds or less ;)). I do like the sparkling new, though.  Maybe a combination of that and my original one?  I'll whip one up in a second. -- Rory 0 96 03:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)




 * Looks good! Where's the computer image come from? smurray  inch   e  ster  (User), (Talk) 10:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's just something I found on the Commons. Actually, I got another idea to add to it while dreaming last night (yes, I dreamt about Wikipedia, I'm probably a Wikiholic).  I'll add that on in a second.  -- Rory 0 96 15:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, take three → Aza Toth 18:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC):
 * This one is, by far, the best. -- Rory 0 96 06:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Neutral Point Of View Barnstar


I would like to propose a new Barnstar for people who work tirelessly to promote a NPOV on Wikipedia, especially on controversial articles like Northern Ireland, Taiwan and others with very opposing points of view. There are Wikpedians out there who try to keep things neutral despite constant attacks, some personal, from other users and I feel they deserve their own award for their perseverance and dedication to neutrality. The image included here is just something I've knocked up quickly based on the traditional barnstar merged with the flag of Switzerland, a country famed for its neutrality. If someone can come up with a better merging of the two then it would be appreciated and would put my poor image editing skills to shame. Ben W Bell 08:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * [[image:Barnstar yin yang.png|thumb|right]] How about a yin yang (☯) type barnstar, to represent the two sides of the arguement in balance and equality, although my design seems to includes lots of odd swirls around the edge.  smurray   inch   e  ster  (User), (Talk) 17:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I like that idea, but the colors I dont like, here is my suggestion: → Aza Toth 22:10, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I personally quite like this proposal, but the image is still not good enough, imho. Deryck C. 08:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * However, I'll oppose unless a better image is found. Deryck C. 07:29, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, next try. The idea is that NPOV is the wheel that runs the wikipedia: → Aza Toth 22:36, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * When creating new Barnstars, there's a couple of preliminary considerations, to determine if the proposal will yield an award that will be useful, interesting, etc. a) Determine the scope of the award as clearly as possible (this seems to have been done); b) Establish that there's a demand for it; c) This is the really tricky one, and where most of the proposals fail: make sure that the scope of the award, and effectively the award itself, is not already covered by another already-existing award (which people will tend to prefer). In this particular case, one might say that the scope is already covered by the Defender of the Wiki Barnstar &mdash; it doesn't mean that the award is not viable, but we'd need to establish that it presents a specification in scope that can be of particular use.  I'm not sure that this can be done here, since the DoWB was created exactly when people were trying to push POV and misinformation in a particular article.  Regards, Redux 14:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The above barnstar is very attractive looking and rather sensible. I do wonder about the colours. Maybe some of them should be tweaked to match the NPOV tag itself? yonkeltron 21:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Still some point to ponder: After the re-construction of the picture it looked like a firewheel instead of a yinyang. All the yangs (bright areas) are gone. De  ryc k C.  15:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it. The result of all of the following discussions was ABANDONED

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I wanted to bring this back to the front, because it's a darn good idea. I definately support it. --Goatrider 19:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you should have left the archive tags on the discussion. --evrik 15:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I like AzaToth's first proposal, but it should be black and white. Michaelas10 15:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I like smurray's design, it's design is more contemporary--Edtalk c E  23:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per Ed. —$ΡЯΙNGεrαgђ (-¢| ε  |Ŀ|T|♫-) 03:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Featured Article Barnstar
I sugest a special Barnstar for those who endlessly attempt to get an article into a featured statues, and almost single-handedly succeed. Such an award may look like the ordinary Barnstar, but coloured gold or something. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Davidpk212 (talk • contribs).
 * This layout seems to be already covered by awards such as The Tireless Contributor Barnstar. But there's a deeper problem with this proposal: normally, we tend to create Barnstars aimed at recognizing broader commitments to the project &mdash; that is, if you are a "tireless contributor", to stay with the Barnstar I mentioned, you are such on multiple instances, and not just in relation to one or two articles.  For this award, people would be getting it for a significant commitment to, I suppose usually, one single article.  Not that people can't be recognized for work done in just one or two articles, they can, and they are, but we do it using Barnstars that are more general and can adapt to these situations (such as the Original Barnstar, The Tireless Contributor Barnstar or the Working Man Barnstar). But if you could somehow find a way to broaden the scope some, I'm not sure how, then we could try to run with it and see where it goes.  Regards, Redux 03:15, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * We already have a FA medal which has recently been moved from barnstars page to another page (titled "other awards", I think). So this award is unnecessary. --Gurubrahma 03:31, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Redesign of Barnstar of National Merit
From Wikipedia talk:Barnstars Image:Barnstar of National Merit.png is very important barnstar but it looks awful. Can you please give it a makeover? Renata 23:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Barnstar national merit 1.png|thumb|right]]I think this should maybe go to Barnstar Proposals. But I do have a proposal where the design is the same, but updated (I also have an alternate version where the centre using the (PD) Blue Marble image of the earth). smurray  inch   e  ster  (User), (Talk) 23:56, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Unnecessary, imo - several people (incl. me) like the current version. I'd support moves that would increase resolution or reduce size of the current version. By and large, I am not in favor of re-inventing the wheel and re-doing things that have already been decided by consensus. Also, this may have potential for inducing edit warring. --Gurubrahma 15:06, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I like the medal idea. The only thing is that while most barnstars look fairly sharp, the Barnstar of National Merits looks as though it was designed on Microsoft Paint. I like the design, it's just the implementation of it I don't like. smurray  inch   e  ster  (User), (Talk) 15:11, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That was exactly my point. Renata 04:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it'd be better if the award is much shorter and doesn't have such a long strap. Deryck C. 16:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Three of our old barnstar stalwarts, Redux, Alkivar, and Zscout370, had a huge hand in designing this barnstar. I don't remember too much because I was on a bit of a barnstar hiatus at the time (I didn't jump back on board until it was going through the final stages of design). There were reasons that the original barnstar wasn't used. Please take a look at this entry to take a look at the original discussion (boy, that was a walk down memory lane!). In addition, I think it would be best to contact the people involved in the original discussion (including the above-mentioned and the other Barnstar veterans such as Clockworksoul and Grutness) before we muck around with the current design that has been in use for a year and was the result of several day's worth of discussion and effort (maybe they have some suggestions for mucking around with the design ;-) ). --Deathphoenix 13:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC) If it's consistency that people are concerned with, you could also try to blur the image slightly so the lines aren't as sharp. Personally, I like the medal design. --Deathphoenix 13:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I notified Redux, Alkivar, Zscout370, and Grutness. Renata 05:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If you wish for the ribbon to be shorter, sure, I can make it shorter. But, the reason why I did not use the BS image that is displayed to the right is that I thought it looked "ugly" when it came to what I wanted to do. So, I decided to make the star for the BoNM medal sharp, clear and give it almost a professional look. I based the medal pattern after some of the other medals I drew for Wikipedia, such as the Hero of Socialist Labor and Hero of Ukraine graphic. I am willing to make some of the easy changes, such as making the ribbon shorter, but I oppose the overhaul that is suggested. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) Fair use policy 06:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not too fussed either way, to be honest - the current design has got a sharper image (as Zach says), but the actual barnstar as proposed is more consistent with the other awards. I would suggest that if the change goes ahead then the ribbon colour should be lighter, more like the current award, since IIRC United Nations blue was deliberately chosen so as not to favour any country (my memory could be off on that one, though). Grutness...wha?  06:54, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Um, all I really wanted is to increase image quality. It looks like my creation in MS Paint. I don't really care about colors/lengths. Just make it look sleek and nice and professional. Renata 07:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * My viewpoint is, no matter we use a mspaint or "barnstar" style image, the strap needs to be shortened, otherwise we will still end up with a medal instead of a barnstar. Deryck C. 07:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * While it was the medal design I was shooting for (countries award medals), I can make the strap shorter, or I can try to re-factor the image to make it a badge (like in the Order of Victory). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) Fair use policy 07:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Back when we created the award, we agreed on a medal-shaped image &mdash; after going through several other possible shapes &mdash; because of the correspondence between a country-related award and the fact that countries award medals for those who are deemed to have performed relevant services to that given country. I do believe the award should remain shaped like a medal &mdash; especially now that a little more than a year has passed and this appearance has become associated with the award &mdash; although it seems that this is not the goal of this discussion anyway; and I also must agree with Gurubrahma on the potential problems, at least in theory, of reopening discussions that had already been settled by consensus, although, again, this seems to be a non-issue here. In addition, the other relevant point about the present appearence that needs to be brought up is the color of the strap &mdash; taking the opportunity to compliment Grutness on his excellent memory &mdash;, which was chosen deliberately as "UN blue", so that no questions about any national color being favored could arise. That logic is still valid, of course, and thus the color needs to be kept. Other than that, I don't particularly oppose adjustments in the BoNM's appearance, although I will say that I like Zach's design &mdash; yes, the thing about not using the actual Barnstar could be taken as an issue, but I do agree with Zach that it just doesn't look that good in the award. Although I do remember, and now it's my turn to dig up the past, that the original Barnstar was used in the award's first official design (being replaced sometime later with the present design). Redux 16:10, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * FWIW. If you look at the Barnstar award page on the commons you'll see a lot of options. evrik 16:56, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Not really. What we have there is a very large, general page, mixing wiki awards and user awards together (there's even a double entry, for the Music Barnstar).  On the BoNM "front", what we do have is a bunch of country-centric awards inspired by the BoNM.  They all follow the same basic format, which is to be expected, since they were all created and added by the same user .  That, of course, makes all of those personal user awards, not wiki awards, which only the original BoNM is.  Regards, Redux 17:31, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * And, one of the things I tried to do is to make the medal design generic, so it will not be tied to a single medal. At the page Redux shows above, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Barnstar#Barnstars_of_National_Merit, the medal designs look like the Hero of the Soviet Union medal, and since Ukraine, Belarus and Russia still use that pattern for their state awards, we should avoid using a design like that. Not to mention, I do not think some people will be thrilled about getting a Soviet-era honor. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) Fair use policy 03:42, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Zach is right. I suppose, if people feel it is necessary, we could consider small adjustments, such as making the strap shorter, or reducing the general size of the whole image (resizing).  Personally, however, I don't see a need for that, since we can determine the size of the image to be shown on each page.  I mean, if we use the template for awarding a Barnstar  the size will already be a very reasonable one, and when we "hang" the award on our user pages, we can resize it in loco, by making it a thumb, using the gallery format or the good old size code ( [[Image:IMAGE.JPG|50px]] ).  IMHO, we should not fix what is not broken.  Redux 14:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Section break: Azatoth's proposal
Proposal for redesign:

Image:Barnstar national merit.png → Aza Toth 15:00, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Without weighing in on the new vs. old comparison, I'd suggest that you keep the ribbon restricted to a U.N. blue, like in the previous design. --Deathphoenix 15:41, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You meen more like this? Image:Barnstar national merit2.png → Aza Toth 16:19, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, like that, thanks. :-) --Deathphoenix 16:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, the UN blue is a lot lighter. Check out the UN flag for reference.  I will insist on the importance of determining if any changes are actually necessary.  I, for one, don't think so, per the reasons I stated in my last comment.  Redux 20:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that we don't need any changes (hence my header on the new vs. old), but I still wanted to weigh in on feedback on the design. You're right, UN blue is a lot lighter. I need to get my eyes checked... --Deathphoenix 20:30, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * In terms of feedback: yes, AzaToth's design does look good (except for the color, which is not yet right). Hey, do what I do: it's always the computer's fault. So, if you got two shades of blue confused, just say it was your computer screen that was malfunctioning at the time ;). Redux 20:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I do think that the version now used is to ugly to be allowed to be given to anyone. I have redone it again, with a more U.N. like blue color, and a simpler star: Image:Barnstar national merit3.png → Aza Toth 20:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't mean to be picky, but the color is still off :/ Redux 20:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's your malfunctioning computer screen. ;-) (seriously, yeah, you need to darken it a little more) --Deathphoenix 21:00, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, take four: (have taken the exactly color as in the U.N. flag this time!) Image:Barnstar national merit4.png → Aza Toth 22:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Seems ok now, but maybe others could confirm, since my eyes...I mean, my computer could be deceiving me. But once you've gotten the color right, it's right back to the central issue: there is no consensus to change the layout significantly. On the contrary, consensus now is leaning towards either keeping it unchanged or making only minor adjustments (shorter ribbon, resizing, or something along those lines). Redux 03:02, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think I agree with you. Call it stupid or whatever, may be, someone like me who received 2 BoNMs and spends a lot of time looking at them ;) is too attached to the old design. More importantly, I don't see any need to re-invent the wheel. On a tangential note, I feel we as a community are spending more time on secondary activities such as userboxes and barnstars. --Gurubrahma 03:31, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I prefer the star from Azatoth's initial proposal better... the ribbon is like 25% too long... but thats just my opinion. I like the last blue ribbon best.  ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 22:17, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Something like this? Image:Barnstar national merit5.png → Aza Toth 23:02, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * MUCH better.  ALKIVAR ™[[Image:Radioactive.svg|18px|]] 03:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I have to say, I'm a little sad. My old buddy DeathPhoenix mentions a bunch of old-timers that should be notified, and somebody (*cough* Renata *cough*) mentions it to all but me. What am I, chopped liver? ;) Oh, by the way, I'm pleased with the idea of a bit of a polishing. :) – ClockworkSoul 06:22, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, by the way, as a suggestion and possible guide, take a look at the fictional medals created for this gaming clan. They're really quite nice. – ClockworkSoul 06:31, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You guys didn't notify ClockworkSoul?? He's come back from the dead, you know (inside joke: you gotta know about the rumors during his long absence).  I hope he doesn't eat your brain for this ;). Redux 16:19, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Mmm... brains. Just like mom used to make! – ClockworkSoul 02:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Straw
→ Aza Toth 03:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

It would be better to determine if there's consensus to change the image in the first place. If there is one, and we decide to take a vote on the new image, it would be better to use the "old" format for voting, which we used to settle images and names for several awards in the past (I'm sure we could dig it up in the archive pages). Redux 16:19, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the ribbon should be thinner, just my 2 cents. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 21:14, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Section break: A sidelight

 * Humm, why was that posted here? There's no discussion about the national variations of the BoNM.  That's already in the books: people can create as many variations as they like, but those are personal user awards, which can be given away freely, of course, but will not be listed in the project page for Barnstars.  In fact, if you check the page at the Commons listed somewhere above, you'll see that a user over there has already created many national variations (and the Polish formats are also listed there).  Please, let's not digress from the main topic of discussion.  Regards, Redux 00:12, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.  The result of all of the following discussions was APPROVED.

Ribbons
Do you think each barnstar should have a ribbon-equalient? for example this: → Aza Toth 16:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The ribbon discussion is going on here.evrik 17:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * There doesn't seem to be any discussion on that page. I don't care much for ribbons, but it's an interesting idea; especially for country-specific national merit awards. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 21:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ribbons representing Barnstars were an idea of Zscout370's as a way to reference the barnstars that he (or any user) had received in his user page but without having to post the actual image of the Barnstars there. It was a clever solution that many have copied.  Now, anyone can use ribbons as a representation of their Barnstars.  The page linked seems to be an attempt at standardizing those ribbons, which I don't think is really necessary.  Barnstars have images of their own &mdash; I mean, that's what we work on in this very forum &mdash; if standard ribbons were to represent Barnstars, then we might as well start giving out ribbons, which I don't believe is what anyone wants.  The present situation is satisfactory: anyone can use ribbons as a sort of "legend" for their Barnstars, at their discretion.  There's absolutely no need to create a set of rules about those ribbons; IMHO, that'd be overdoing it.  Regards, Redux 00:19, 25 February 2006 (UTC)