Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive136

Anwar rasheed
Dileep would play the title role in a film called 'My Name is Avarachan', that would be directed by Jose Thomas.

and not Anwar Rasheed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Venugopal1234 (talk • contribs) 03:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Rick Santorum
I assume that I am correct that the agreement, as it was discussed here, was to omit the "Santorum" definition from the bio article, but another editor considers it to be important information. I do not wish to edit war over it, especially on a page I have recently semiprotected. --Bongwarrior (talk) 05:56, 10 October 2011 (UTC)


 * You are correct. And it is EW for anyone to keep pushing the stuff into the BLP. Collect (talk) 12:06, 10 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Respectfully, a "consensus" does not create an exception to policy. The definition is unfortunate and distasteful but for better or for worse it has become a part of Sen. Santorum's legacy. Sen. Santorum is a minor figure in American politics and to have more than one Wikipedia page/entry devoted to him and this controversy is not appropriate. It simply is what it is; unfortunate and distasteful but complete and comprehensive. V/R A. Poinçot (talk) 01:55, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * If these are your feelings, then surely you won't be too heartbroken if we follow previous consensus and keep it out of the BLP. Kelly  hi! 02:17, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * No feelings hurt. After rereading "neutral point of view" policy WP:NPOV I don't think the definition should be included in the main Santorum bio. V/R A. Poinçot (talk) 02:24, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Liam Fox
The last sentence under "Personal life", suggesting that hois marriage was a cover, strikes thois reader as unsubstantiated and potetially defamatory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.116.24.237 (talk) 11:21, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems to have gone. --Dweller (talk) 12:38, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Recent additions may be libelous and defamatory: references to sexual orientation and relationships. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.213.88 (talk) 11:45, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Also seems to be toast and the article is now semi-protected. --Dweller (talk) 12:45, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Michael Le Vell
Basically a request for a few more people to keep an eye on this page.

I fully protected the Michael Le Vell article due to some back-and-forth involving some serious allegations (sourced, but at this point just allegations I think). Since consensus on the talk page seems to be leaning toward inclusion, I'm going to unprotect the page, but it would be good for some other editors to look into the matter. I personally have no opinion of whether it should be included and if other editors and/or admins see a need for action in any direction I won't stand in their way. Alexius Horatius  15:23, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Anthony Bologna (again again)
The question now is whether there should be a separate section on a 2004 lawsuit that is only now getting publicity, and whether the sourcing, which conflicts, is sufficient to indicate whether there is one or multiple lawsuits. Input from BLP-experienced editors would be appreciated.ScottyBerg (talk) 18:08, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I hate to say it because everything associated with this article irritates me, but there is no real conflict between the Guardian and the NYT. Just because the Guardian identified only one lawsuit doesn't mean there aren't others. And I can tell you, by looking at primary sources that aren't citable, that Bolgona has been sued more than once in the Southern District of New York. I haven't verified - and don't intend to - whether all of the suits arose out fo the 2004 convention and complain of "wrongful arrests" (the usual term, by the way is "false arrest") by Bologna.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:48, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * My reasoning was that the Guaradian would have mentioned any other suits if they were material. I'm interested in that other suit or suits. I know it's OR, but it would be nice to know if Bologna's presence in those suits is ex officio or if he is accused of any specific wrongdoing. If the latter, I'm surprised that either the Guardian or someone else hasn't written it up, hence my concern. I know someone with a Pacer account and may beg her to look him up. ScottyBerg (talk) 01:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you mean by "material" - important enough? Even if you get your friend to look at the list of lawsuits in which Bologna is named, that won't help you much because someone would then have to pore over the docket for each case to understand what has happened in the case and what Bologna's alleged involvement was. It's a major task and, in my view, a waste of time. This is why we have to rely on secondary rather than primary sources. And, in this instance, a throwaway line from the NYT that Bologna was inolved in lawsuits (plural) is absolutely meaningless without context, and the NYT gives almost none. It's a joke and, even putting aside the issue of Bologna's notability, it's a BLP violation to have unsubstantiated bare allegations in the article.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:37, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * a throwaway line from the NYT that Bologna was inolved in lawsuits (plural) is absolutely meaningless without context: I agree with you 100%. That's why I raised the issue here. We now have a separate section referring to "lawsuits." ScottyBerg (talk) 15:58, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, well, although I'm responding here to your comments, I have stayed out of editing the article and discussing the article on its Talk page until the tumultuous AfD runs its course. And even if the consensus is a keep or there is no consensus (a de facto keep), I'm not sure what, if anything, I will do. Despite my view that it's a very small tempest in a large teapot, that's clearly not the view of many other editors, and I don't feel like fighting with them, particularly now with passions running very high.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * So much for my resolve to stay out of it. I just reverted material citing to primary sources in clear violation of WP:BLPPRIMARY and commented on that Bologna Talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:35, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately this article, if it survives, is going to be a major bone of contention for some time to come. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:57, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Amy Childs
The last few sentances do not seem very appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.111.55.124 (talk) 20:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for pointing this out; I have removed the problematic content and issued a warning to the IP address (unregistered editor) that added it. Note that, in most cases, it is possible to edit articles to remove such material yourself. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:55, 10 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Addition - I've also requested semi-protection for this article at WP:RFPP due to its recent history. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:59, 10 October 2011 (UTC)


 * ... declined by User:Fastily, so some more eyes on this article might be helpful. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 08:09, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Mola Mola (musician) (again)
I have again researched this page and find the content regarding Bill Wyman and Andy fairweather Lowe misleading and disingenuous. The article is written as though the writer had a close working relationship with the artists but there is no record of him working with either person and he certainly did not work with Bill Wymans Rhythm Kings as has been stated. I would treat this page with caution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Milkyboy124 (talk • contribs) 07:42, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The continued existence of the article Jack Hazebroek, to which Mola Mola (musician) is a redirect, is under discussion at Articles for deletion/Jack Hazebroek. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 08:31, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Bob rae
In the text his religion is described as Anglican but in his biography to the right he is described as Jewish — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.79.115.240 (talk) 08:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The sections of the article covering this are sourced to a dead link, so that could do with some more work. My own initial searches haven't found anything to confirm what's written there. Wikipedia's article on his wife doesn't mention her religion, even though the article on Rae lists her religion as though it were his. Anyway, I've removed the "religion" item from the Rae article infobox, as being unsourced and contradictory. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 08:24, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Rachael Barrett
Very poor sourcing for a BLP. Might well be an autobiography - see. Philip Trueman (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Stubbed and likely to be stubbed further unless RS are presented. --Cameron Scott (talk) 14:23, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

3 persons at Ex-gay movement
There's a list of people associated with the Ex-gay movement, at Ex-gay movement. There's an open RfC about whether the list should exist, which is not the issue here. The issue is that three people who aren't notable (not notable enough to have an article, anyway) are listed, and their entries are mainly about accusations (with arrests and convictions in two cases) of sexual crimes.

I removed these for BLP considerations, but they were restored and a couple of editors are arguing that this is good material, the discussion being here: Talk:Ex-gay movement. Since I've done another revert I've fouled out, so would appreciate another set of eyes taking a look at the matter. Herostratus (talk) 17:51, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Please provide concrete reasons why you think the Austin and Cook entries violate WP:BLP. Vague and unarticulated "concerns" are no excuse for edit warring.
 * As for notability, neither Cook or Austin can be described as totally "non-notable". Collin Cook definitely belongs because he was a prominent figure in the movement as the founder of HA. Austin's notability rests on the notability of Renew Ministries and was affiliated with NARTH. If Renew Ministries is a significant force in the movement, or if Austin held a key position at NARTH, he should be included. Notable for inclusion in an article is not the same as notable for one's own article. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:24, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that the crimes in question are directly related to the people's ex-gay efforts; if what was at hand was mention of an ex-gay counselor shoplifting peanut butter or cheating on their taxes or whatever, then it would not be relevant and should not be included. This is a very different situation. --Nat Gertler (talk) 18:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The lists of people associated with the ex-gay movement should be removed completely. Not just the entries that aren't notable enough to have their own articles (but please note that those clearly should not be on the page). If someone's activities are notably part of a social movement then they should be mentioned in meaningful way in the prose of the entry and not listed with short bio blurbs. Listing non-notable people with short bio blurbs equates to making an end run around WP:N. Last but not least, listing non-notable people with a large portion of their bio blurb being dedicated to the crimes they've been convicted for/arrested for/associated with is quite clearly against the spirit if not the letter of BLP.Griswaldo (talk) 18:51, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with Griswaldo on this. If they are significant players int he movement, then points about their involvement can be included in the body of the article. No need for list. --BweeB (talk) 18:57, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree that the list should be removed and replaced with appropriately sourced prose, but pending the resolution of that issue, it's an NPOV violation to include individuals whose "success stories" are sourced to personal blogs and "ex-gay" websites, while removing individuals whose crimes are sourced to RS newspapers. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 19:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * We don't right one wrong by perpetuating another. Why are there "'success stories' ... sourced to person blogs and 'ex-gay' websites" in the entry in the first place? Remove those too.Griswaldo (talk) 19:09, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, that's why I started the thread that led to the RFC. ;) –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 19:32, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Whether there should be a list or not is a separate matter, and the subject of an open RfC on the talk page. Comments about that should be made there, not here. The matter here pertains strictly to the exclusion of Austin and Cook from the article (whether in a list or in prose) on the basis of WP:BLP. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 19:07, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I proppose we exclude Cook and Austin. --BweeB (talk) 19:10, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * @Dominus. Uhm no it doesn't. The question asked pertained to those entries. The entire list is currently posing a BLP problem. One of the two main concerns of BLP is "privacy," something that non-notable people can reasonably expect us to take seriously, and indeed our BLP policy tells us to do so. This means that the addition of any personal biographical details of non-notable people is a violation of one of the core BLP principles. If someone's activities are notably part of a larger subject matter then those activities can be addressed in the prose content of an article. But listing people "associated" with a subject and listing biographical details even though they fail WP:N is clearly against BLP. So I respectfully disagree with you on that.Griswaldo (talk) 19:14, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, you agree with me. I voted against both reincarnations of the stand-alone list, and am dead set against including the list in the article as well. If it were up to me, I'd cut it in a heartbeat. (And I think I have). I'm definitely against the vague, abuse-inviting title People "associated with" the movement. I agree that it is an end run around notability. However, that RfC is still open, and I'm acting on the basis that the list does exist, not whether it should. I've taken your BLP concerns into serious consideration, and am reading the policy in depth at the moment. My major concern was that the reason given by Herostratus for deleting the items was vague and based on false assumptions, except for the case of Lewis, who I agree doesn't belong. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 19:30, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Just so we are clear, and I think we are, I wasn't disagreeing with your view of the article but with the applicability of the conversation to the board. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 19:48, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Seconding this, basically. I don't think the list belongs and I am/was one of the major players in trying to get it removed, but if/while it stays, it can't contain only positive information, particularly when the negative information is better sourced. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 19:36, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Update - I took the liberty to remove all entries for individuals without Wikipedia articles of their own to protect their privacy. Clearly I think the entire list should go, but IMO the temporary measure was needed in the meantime.Griswaldo (talk) 20:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Jeff Gordon
There are some subsections under the section Cup Series career which have no sources. Three examples are 1994, 2004, and 2005. There are also some subsections that I don't think have enough sources. Three examples are 2008, 2009, and 2011.

I think there are some violations in all of the subsections I mentioned. However, I don't want to delete the subsections which have no sources, and I don't want to delete some of the content in the subsections which I think don't have enough sources. I also don't want to spend what I consider a lot of time looking for enough sources for the content in question to be kept. --Jesant13 (talk) 22:46, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This is not the only problem with this article. I put a bunch of tags in the sections asking for refs. If they do not come, then we are at liberty to remove the text from the article. Overall, it needs a lot of trimming and rewriting, but I do not have a big desire to tackle it myself. --BweeB (talk) 00:30, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Rick Perry
Offensive slurs in the religion section on Rick Perry! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.109.17.127 (talk) 00:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That was vandalism that was in the article for only a short time. Our apologies that you saw it in that brief (few seconds) period. NW ( Talk ) 00:12, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Solyndra loan controversy edit war is brewing
The article Solyndra loan controversy has some major NPOV issues. A lot of the edits to it have come from users new to Wikipedia who may be editing with an agenda. The sources cited do not always back the claims and it seems to be cherry picking information in some key places. Maybe some more people can take a look and offer some ideas to improve it. I think a edit war could be brewing. Forgot to add in particle one user Mk2z0h seems to be the one mostly editing the article. Kudos to him for citing sources, albeit not the most reliable ones, and editing it himself, but he appears to be cherrypicking information.

--Andy0093 (talk) 03:22, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

David S. Rose
This article, David S. Rose, has serious neutrality issues, reads like an advertisement, and would require an extensive rewrite to be made encyclopedic (even if the subject is assumed to be notable). Further, the subject does not satisfy Wikipedia's standard for notability since David S. Rose has not received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. A laundry list of references is included but they are mostly about other topics with single quotes from himself. The Sun Times reference is a dead link, the Forbes reference is a dead link, etc.. 24.5.68.9 (talk) 06:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't see any BLP issues.Jarhed (talk) 15:13, 5 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Removed the possibly commercial ELs, but honestly this is not the biggest puff bio by a mile. Ceers. Collect (talk) 16:40, 5 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Can someone please just torch this article? I don't think I've seen this many maintenance tags and in-line citation/clarification/verify needed tags in an article since...ever.  Honestly, someone just gut the thing, and then we can start over new. hbdragon88 (talk) 09:02, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I've reverted some overzealous tagging and cleanup, started a discussion explaining some of my rationale for doing so.
 * Maybe it's just a coincidence, but the first reference tagged as a dead link that I tried worked. --Ronz (talk) 04:15, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Dennis W. Chiu
Attempts to remove puff are being met with added puff . Might someone with a nicely sharpened pencil visit? Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:40, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Appears to be a conflict of interest user attempting to promote a living person using wikipedia as a vehicle for said promotion. Off2riorob (talk) 16:43, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The relevant s.p.a. is now throwing around terminology like "tort of invasion of privacy" when we try to get said s.p.a. (possibly the subject, or the subject's Significant Other) to flesh out the article and source it more encyclopedically. I'm detecting a bad case of WP:OWN here, as well as our long-term suspicions of COI. --Orangemike (talk) 21:42, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I put the COI template on the article as he had removed it and I left him a note on his talkpage. I can't even look through those primary externals. We need better policy to stop such creations. Off2riorob (talk) 22:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've cleaned up some of the obvious stuff, removing bare URLs, the stuff about his law review article and the 9th circuit, and other puffery. More work needs to be done, notably in the references. Instead of citing to several separate items, the references are a collection of cites with explanation. Very odd and difficult to deal with.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:27, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

To update .. - the main contributor to the article  has replied on my userpage, suggesting an openness to work together/step back a bit to allow others editors to improve the article. Off2riorob (talk) 00:41, 9 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't that simply be AFD'd? He doesn't seem notable according to the current version of the article. He's done stuff but nobody seem to be writing *about* him. --Cameron Scott (talk) 08:34, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * That's my view, so I've done that, although the article creator, a single purpose account, is going to be all over me, claiming I removed material that would have established notability - not an accurate claim, but it will probably be made nonetheless.--Bbb23 (talk) 03:23, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Yitzchak Ginsburg
Please remove these utterly ridiculous and libelous comments about Rabbi Ginzburg, he is not an extremist and would never claim that it is fine to kill gentiles for any reason besides pure self defense. Everyone on earth has the right to defend themselves including gentiles. He never implied in any way that it is allowed to kill gentiles for organ harvesting. If this is not removed within 3 days you can expect a libel lawsuit, I am not asking for much, just that there is some semblance of objectivity. It doesnt take a genius to see how speculative these so called sources are. the fact that Inbari is a jewish Israeli does not make him an authority on all jewish people and does prevent him from being a liar.

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raishlakish (talk • contribs) 17:09, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi, I'm sure this will get sorted out promptly. However, please don't threaten lawsuits anywhere on Wikipedia, as the policy of no legal threats means that you cannot pursue legal action (or threaten to do so) and continue to edit Wikipedia at the same time. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:16, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The material in question is meticulously sourced and has been scrutinized by a number of other editors. Further scrutiny is of course welcome.  But in reality there's no problem here.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with Nomoskedasticity. The sourcing in the article seems to be fine, and the claims in the article don't go further than a large number of reports in reliable places. Inbari is a leading academic researcher of the extreme right in Israel, which Ginsburg is a leading member of. Note that the complainant is yet to write a single word on the article talk page. Zerotalk 07:59, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Mark McMenamin
Th person who did the most recent edits to the McMenamin biography appears to have been in too much of a hurry to be objective or even to check spellings.

In the sentence "McMenamin has argued that a formation of multiple ichthyosaur fossils placed together at Berlin–Ichthyosaur State Park may represent evidence of a gigantic "kraken" that killed the ichthyosaurs and intentionally arranged their bones in the unusual pattern seen at the site.[2]" the word "kraken" would more accurately read "cephalopod, reminiscent of the mythological kraken."

The sentence, "Opponents have dismissed the theory as too far-fetched to be credible.[3]" is rather biased. I suggest a change to "The theory is controversial.[3]"

Also, in reference [2], the name of the co-author is misspelled. It should not be "Shulte McMenamin, Dianna L.", but rather "McMenamin, Dianna Schulte". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.195.7 (talk) 04:57, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If the corrections you propose are non-controversial and supported by reliable sources, then you can make the corrections yourself. Wikipedia, after all, is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit.  If these matters are in dispute, please discuss them on the article's talk page, and discuss to achieve consensus.  Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  06:56, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Bryan Fischer
Attack page. causa sui (talk) 15:20, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I see some excessive weight (maybe) given to the SPLC and random Fisher opinions, but I hardly see it as an "attack page". NW ( Talk ) 15:31, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not quite speedyable (though I considered it). But the purpose of the article is to disparage the subject and catalogue all the reasons we should hate him. causa sui (talk) 16:24, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I cut a bunch of stuff out. Looks better now. causa sui (talk) 16:28, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Zara Phillips
As she is not changing her name upon marriage can someone revert this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zara_Tindall

and possibly move protect it at least for now given the marriage has just happened so drive by page moves are likely. thanks RafikiSykes (talk) 22:06, 30 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I moved it back to Phillips and requested temporary move protection. Off2riorob (talk) 22:44, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Edward Davenport (property developer)
This article is largely based on a self serving self-authored biography at 33portlandplace.com and davenporttrust.com. The con man is now safely in jail for advance fee fraud and presumably serving the remainder of his term for VAT evasion. But on the way he bought the Lord of the Manor of Giffords, Salop and self-described himself as Lord Edward Davenport. He is entitled to call himself Mr Edward Davenport, Lord of the Manor of Giffords, Salop.. Nobody has picked up on that; reiable sources all say he is a "self-styled Lord (or peer)". Surely this should not be in the lede? Kittybrewster &#9742;  22:21, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed but it is gone now. I wish they would just vote in Parliament to get rid of these nonsensical pseudo-titles, but that isn't NPOV, so I'll just say, I'm glad it's gone from the lede.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:51, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Except that it wasn't gone! Kittybrewster &#9742;  23:15, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The sources don't say that. They say self-styled "Lord" Edward Davenport, which is exactly what is in the lede. Everyone knows that when it's in quotes it's not real. It's not lending any authority, rather reflecting the fact of his own self importance. Fmph (talk) 06:20, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Please could somebody change the article from property developer. He was never that. Kittybrewster &#9742;  12:13, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Louise Blouin Media
Louise Blouin Media have responded to the negative story in the New York Observer. I'd like to note as well that the quote we have from the Observer story reads more like an editorial opinion column than an objective news story. The series of lawsuits they describe, if true, don't seem to imply anything about "keeping the lights on" either literally nor metaphorically.

Due to a potential conflict of interest (the Observer article discusses a dinner at which I was in attendance), I won't be getting directly involved. I merely post here to bring the issue to wider attention.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:33, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


 * It is worth noting in connection to this that the negative information was added by a WP:SPA - Percival Buttermere--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Obvious BLP implications using a rhetorical device sourced to unnamed people regarding a living person. Collect (talk) 08:14, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Aaron Edelson
This article was posted by Mr. Edelson and contains a) nonsense and b) erroneous biographical information designed to mislead the public or law enforcement. This entry also does not meet notability guidelines as this person is utterly unnotable. Would be happy to delete myself but mobile isn't working well with editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.98.132.254 (talk) 08:08, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you mean by "law enforcement", but the sources in the article don't support any of the material except that he is an artist. One source had absolutely nothing to do with Edelson. Another source was a piece written by Edelson, which even as a self-published source didn't support the assertions. I'm not sure how it's survived this long. I've stubbed it.--Bbb23 (talk) 08:29, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Duminda Silva
This seems to be a rather negative BLP currently suffering from some deletion of content, without reasons given, by IP and registered editors. Also, unsourced allegations i.e "doing Drug business". They have recently been involved in a shooting in which another Sri Lankan politician (Bharatha Lakshman Premachandra) was killed. (Silva themself has apparently had 2 bullets removed from their skull!). I have reverted some of the deletions but the page is almost an attack page, very little positive content.

Not sure if this article even meets notability requirements, but perhaps it should be stubbed to remove unsourced allegations (some of which has been done I now note) and then protected (if not outright deleted.) Needs watching for vandalism certainly. Apologies if this is the wrong venue. Regards, 220.101.30.184 (talk) 09:43, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've removed a significant amount of material (entire sections) from the article as being allegations only, charges that were dismissed, trials from 3 years ago with no indication as to the outcome of the trial - all of this material is extraordinarily negative and doesn't belong in the article unless it resulted in an actual conviction. I've also reworded the material about the recent shooting as we can't say that Duminda killed someone else - the reports are confusing at best but are mostly allegations and accusations at this point.--Bbb23 (talk) 10:01, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The article is spinning out of control at this point. I've requested protection of the article.--Bbb23 (talk) 10:29, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Holy ####! What a cat fight! Concur with protection. Thanks for your continuing attention, Bbb23! :) Regards, 220.101.30 talk\Contribs 10:52, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The article has been fully protected for 10 days. I guess I can go to sleep now.--Bbb23 (talk) 11:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You've earned it !  220.101.30 talk\Contribs 14:50, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

George Soros
Un-vetted information is being posted as fact with regard to Mr. Soros's involvement in the Wall Street protests. This information is pure conjecture and should not be reported as fact, nor be part of any encyclopedia. Please remove this posting and place a lock on the page as this source is very likely to be a heated battle ground for the next few moments of our lives. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr. Jinglehimerschmit (talk • contribs) 16:19, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Someone deleted the content but I reverted as it is sourced content. However I did create a neutral summary of the report from Reuters and took the content out of the lead and move it to the career section. On a related point, this article needs some attention and grooming. The article is a bit mixed up with some vanity text, off topic info about his company performance and arbitrary organization rather than chronological. If anyone has time, I could use some help cleaning it up. I made some edits today but there is lots more to do. Thanks in advance. -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 18:03, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Clifford Irving
Loaded with uncited gossip and tabloid narrative. causa sui (talk) 17:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The sourcing is surprisingly light for a BLP on a very well known person like Irving. The article is already tagged for that, so I hesitate to slap on more "fact" tags. I'm not seeing any obvious salacious gossip in the article, and there's nothing in the talk page. Do you have any specific concerns apart from the sourcing? ScottyBerg (talk) 18:32, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Pretty much everything in the section on the Howard Hughes autobiography reads like a People magazine history, without the citation. There's a lot of stuff in here that only one person could know, like personal phone conversations between two people, but there is no mention or even interest in how the person writing the article came to know that, or why anyone else should believe it. Some examples, but I could object to almost every line in this section:
 * Then, James Phelan read an excerpt of the "autobiography" and realized that some of its factual information had come not from Hughes, but from his own book.
 * We're reading James Phelan's mind here. Phelan probably told somebody this narrative, but we don't say who he told it to, or where we read it, and we don't make it clear that it (as his own personal mental activity) can only be attributed to him and cannot be independently verified.
 * Meanwhile, Frank McCulloch, known for years as the last journalist to interview Hughes, received an angry call from someone claiming to be Hughes himself. But when McCulloch read the Irving manuscript, he declared that it was indeed accurate. Mike Wallace interviewed Irving for a news broadcast. Wallace later said his camera crew told him Irving was not telling the truth. "They understood. I didn't. He got me."[citation needed]
 * See above.
 * Hughes's lawyer, Chester Davis, filed suit against McGraw-Hill, Life, Clifford Irving and Dell Publications. Swiss authorities investigated the 'Helga R. Hughes' bank account; they found that $750,000 had been deposited and that the Irvings, who by this time had returned to their home on the Balearic resort island of Ibiza, were denying everything. When Swiss police visited the Irvings on Ibiza, Clifford Irving tried to hint that he might have been dealing with an impostor. Then, James Phelan read an excerpt of the "autobiography" and realized that some of its factual information had come not from Hughes, but from his own book. Finally, the Swiss bank identified Edith Irving as the depositor of the funds, and the fraud was revealed.
 * It helps that Irving confessed to fraud in open court. But these details still need to be cited.
 * causa sui (talk) 20:17, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Then my suggestion would be that you be WP:BOLD and simply remove the above and any other problematic passages. I notice that the article has had very little activity, so there seems to be no recent concerted effort to cause trouble there. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:31, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah the easiest thing to do is to delete it all. I guess I'm hoping someone with more familiarity with the events (which took place a bit before my proverbial 'time') would know how to get it sourced. I'll let this hang for a bit before chopping it down. causa sui (talk) 20:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Why not post a note on the talk page or reach out to editors who have contributed heavily to it in the past? That might yield some action. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:48, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Kaniz Ali
This page is not a biography but only an article to promote herself (kaniz ali). It also talks about a kaniz ali charity fund which does not exist and is not a registered charity organisation. The article only boasts promotes kaniz ali and the work she does for a living in order to gain more recognition. This site is for facts and biographies and should not be used for promotional purposes.

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.218.194.162 (talk) 21:33, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


 * - I cut the article by half - making it twice as good - promotional article, person of minimal note - a couple of promo articles - the creator requested its deletion in feb this year but it was refused - Off2riorob (talk) 22:20, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous
Criminal accusations were posted in a thread visible here:. The names of people were then redacted, but the accusations remain visible in the history. The thread was removed but has been restored at least once. Some attention from this board seems called for. μηδείς (talk) 03:09, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Here is the original unredacted accusation of criminality: μηδείς (talk) 03:33, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Dnepropetrovsk maniacs
Hi, could someone look into this image, please? I reckon it WAY wrong, especially since it's linked with the Dnepropetrovsk maniacs. In my opinion, it's just as easy as to put a 'Wanted' sign on someones forehead. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Igor_Sayenko.jpg The person on the photo is rather recognisable. The point of blurring is to make someones identity anonymous (especially in a high profile-case). Obviously, this photo could use some work (to say the least). My concern is about the person depicted on the photograph. I don't know him, but obviously, this can't pass wiki's guidelines. 「Robster1983」 ☞ Life's short, talk fast ☜ 02:35, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, if no one cares, then I don't care. I let it go. 「Robster1983」 ☞ Life's short, talk fast ☜ 17:25, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It looks like the image was removed on 10 October at 19:37, so I'm not sure why Robster1983 thinks that no one cares.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:23, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Michael Siris
The subject (or someone associated with same) has asked that the COI tag be removed, and has started asking on the talk page.

In the live help system, I've advised the user regarding COI best-practice, etc.

If others could help improve the article, that'd be great.  Chzz  ► 14:11, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * A couple editors (Rob and OlYeller) have addressed this at the article talk page, and it looks like the COI tag will be removed soon if there are no objections.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:01, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Tomas Tranströmer
The report taken from the Telegraph is both unclear as to whom or what it is deriding or if it is indeed derisive. Suggest removal as it is not worthy of space in an encyclopedia which strives to be factual.

Lack the necessary skill, so please help.

Idealist707 (talk) 19:31, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Removed by Rob.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:58, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, it wasn't any longer supporting any content and it was just a bit derisive, so as it was complained about I thought it was better out than in. . Off2riorob (talk) 23:11, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Laurence D. Fink
I remove content from this article today because it was unencyclopedic in tone and gave undue weight as presented. At least one of the references it was taken from was lengthy enough to give a balanced view of his career, so we can definitely do a better job of presenting his career in a balanced way that does not come off as an attack piece. A few new editors who understand BLP policy helping out would be goodness. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 10:26, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Done.Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:05, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice work Anythingyouwant. I noticed that the IP address that added the removed content also added the same, or some of the same to the BlackRock article and his edits there may alsdo benefit from an investigation. Off2riorob (talk) 23:36, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Good sleuthing. I shortened that stuff at BlackRock per undue weight, even though a living corporation isn't exactly a living person.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:58, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Wallace P. Carson, Jr
I am personally acquainted with Wally Carson. His wife's name is Gloria. The portion where the article says "He and his wife, Mary, have three children" relates to Carson's successor as Chief Justice, Paul J. DeMuniz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.26.64 (talk) 18:12, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting us know. Based on your notes above, I found this online reference:, which confirmed your information.  I have updated the article accordingly.  -- Jayron  32  18:22, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

William Loren Katz
My name is Welwyn Wilton Katz. I am the author of Time Ghost, published by Margaret K. McElderry in 1995. For some reason, though my name is clearly shown on the covers all over the internet, and his is not, he has become known as the author of my book. He had nothing to do with it. I never worked with him, and he never worked with me. I am the sole author. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.159.115 (talk) 20:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting us know. Removed. --GRuban (talk) 20:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, book is indeed written by by Welwyn Wilton Katz - Off2riorob (talk) 20:52, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Tegan and Sara
Biased contributor opinion/commentary can be found within the category "Social Relevance and Activism" (The quotation marks are my own): "Their music does, in fact, reflect their own style that was not necessarily the popular choice of music when they first began. They stuck true to who they were as artists, and as people, and achieved success on their own merits rather than changing everything about themselves to please the public eye. That message is one of the most positive messages a youth in America, or the World, can receive in this day and age." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.170.179.118 (talk) 21:07, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I see it has been removed - it was a bit self serving but some kind of trim might be also an option - Tegan_and_Sara#Social_Relevance_and_Activism - the interview at www.outimpact.com - is an almost not used external here but trimming may be better than blamking. Off2riorob (talk) 23:29, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Prashant Bhushan
This article contains given points to make it removed. -People who are relatively unknown -Don't have Neutral point of view(about "Sri Ram Sena") -Please Verify sources(Prashant Bhushan attacked by ) -Attack page(to Hindu Community) -Avoid self-published sources(Prashant Bhushan is expressing his own point of view) -Using the subject as a self-published source(Negative publicity over Kashmir Issue in India) -Avoid victimization -Semi-protection, protection, and blocking(Please block the person who is creating misleading articles) -Personal views are heavily biased towards Hindu community & India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alok.vaghela (talk • contribs) 07:43, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I could use some help on this article. The OP, a single purpose account, is adding controversial information to the article repeatedly. His wording is awful. Some of his sources are inappropriate. I've posted a warning on his Talk page and added some advice, but it doesn't seem to work, and unless I claim exemptions, I'm making too many reverts. By the way, some of the material he wishes to add may turn out to be useful, if worded carefully and properly sourced.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:20, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Nancy Dell'Olio birth year
This is a silly dispute. An IP has inserted a birth year for Dell'Olio based on a Daily Mail article. Essentially, the DM acknowledges that Dell'Olio has frequently lied about her age but is reporting her latest representation. Even the DM says the following about Dell'Olio's latest birth date: "It was assumed that this was Nancy finally being truthful about her age".

In my view, this is not a report by the DM as to Dell'Olio's age, but the DM reporting what Dell'Olio says. Thus, the source is Dell'Olio, and she has shown herself to be an unreliable source for her age. Therefore, I reverted it (3x), but the IP insists on keeping it in, despite my explanations on the Talk page. The latest pronouncement by the IP, which I find facially absurd, in response to my comments, is: "Whatever. This wiki needs a date of birth."

I could take this to 3RR on a very broad interpretation of the policy (the IP's insertion of the date constitutes a revert), but I've never cared for that interpretation, so I'm not.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:58, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * SHOW US THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE!Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:17, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This is quite amusing - She is accepting (and celebrating ) a 50 birthday so ...there are claims of two years additional and two years minus, shall we accept the average/mean or should we attribute it to the subject, as in, Dell Olio celebrated what she said was her 50th birthday in 2011? - Its not like her exact age is part of her notability is it. Off2riorob (talk) 17:26, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree it's amusing and I agree her "exact age" is unimportant, which is why we should just leave it out of the article AND leave it to her and to the media to beat to death.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:50, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Pierce Brosnan
In the biography of Pierce Brosnan in Wikipedia the following passage appears:

"Brosnan was brought up in a Roman Catholic[5][6][7] family and educated in a local school run by the Christian Brothers while serving as an altar boy.[7] Brosnan has expressed contempt for his education by the Christian Brothers. "I grew up being taught by the Christian Brothers, who were dreadful, dreadful human beings. Just the whole hypocrisy. And the cruelness of their ways toward children. They were very sexually repressed. Bitter. Cowards, really. I have nothing good to say about them and will have nothing good to say about them. It was ugly. Very ugly. Dreadful. I learnt nothing from the Christian Brothers except shame."[3

'''This a gross lible of the "Christian Brothers". The Irish Christian Brothers never had a school in Navan nor did they ever have Pierce Brosnan as a pupil in any of their schools.'''

Please have the passage removed immediately! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Athgarvan (talk • contribs) 16:07, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Where did you find that out? Where does "Navan" factor into this? Hipocrite (talk) 16:10, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe Navan is the town where Brosnan grew up. However, he may easily have been schooled outside of Navan at a boarding school. The Interior  (Talk) 21:16, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The quotation above is from the referenced article in Cigar Afficianado magazine. It is a pretty strong statement, but the reference seems to support it. Tgeairn (talk) 16:39, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I have found a similar reference here. It specifies Christian Brothers in Navan but is perhaps worded more guardedly. Thincat (talk) 10:55, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Athgarvan, please familiarize yourself with our policy against legal threats. Your use of the word "libel" can reasonably be construed as a legal threat.  We are not saying anything negative about the Christian Brothers in Wikipedia's voice.  Instead, we are reporting what Pierce Brosnan has said about his experiences in his youth.  We now have two sources quoting Brosnan saying essentially the same thing.  Both should be considered reliable sources for direct quotes by Brosnan.  As I see it, your dispute is with Pierce Brosnan, not with Wikipedia.  Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  21:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh for crying out loud. Mentioning that something may be illegal is not the same as making a legal threat. The people who try to stretch it to mean that are just looking for excuses to jump to blocking people instead of dealing maturely with possibly legitimate issues. If you would familiarize yourself with the policy it doesn't say that identifying potential problems in articles constitutes a legal threat. Hell, if that were the case then all of our pages for reporting potential copyright problems would all be legal threats. In this case it's not merely that someone else said something and we are just factually mentioning it, but in repeating it we need to be clear in our motivations. Brosnan did or did not say something is a a side issue. Even if it's true that it was said, it doesn't logically follow that we should report it at all or give a bunch of space to it. It's a very strong statement, and it seems weird to be doing such a long direct quote on a topic like that when the reason the person is famous is for being an actor, not for being an altar boy. So the question should become why would it be presented the way it is -- if indeed it should be mentioned at all? DreamGuy (talk) 22:51, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Cullen's interpretation of policy. "For example, if you repeatedly assert that another editor's comments are "defamatory" or "libelous", that editor might interpret this as a threat to sue for defamation, even if this is not intended. To avoid this frequent misunderstanding, use less charged wording (such as “That statement about me is not true and I hope it will be corrected for the following reasons...”) to avoid the perception that you are threatening legal action for defamation."


 * Also, the copyright issue you mention is specifically discounted in the policy: "A polite, coherent complaint in cases of copyright infringement or attacks is not a "legal threat"."--Bbb23 (talk) 23:11, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Lying to the 9/11 Commission
Can someone please look at this and let me know if they think that this is a WP:BLP violation? Discussion is here.  Thanks. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:43, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see it is a BLP violation. The person making the accusations was part of the commission. The interpretation of the book comes from a secondary source (I actually think that's better than citing the book only, as one editor suggests). I disagree with one editor who says that it requires a "court order" to put in an accusation of someone lying. We're not, except maybe very obliquely, talking about crimes here.


 * That said, I think the material is poorly worded and doesn't conform to the source. We need to be careful about distinguishing between what the writer of the article is saying as opinion and what the writer is saying about what Farmer said. Also, we shouldn't reach at all.


 * I'm not addressing other issues like whether the material is relevant to the article or whether it's undue or any other possible objection, just the BLP violation issues.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:29, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

diane feinstein
Other internet sources report that her father died in 1975. The article states his death in 2003. Please clarify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.222.96.2 (talk) 18:04, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The sentence was added earlier this year by an IP without explanation or source. I've removed it from the article.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:16, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Ani-Matilda Serebrakian
"Ani-Matilda Serebrakian (born February 7, 1989) was an alpine skier from Armenia. She competed for Armenia at the 2010 Winter Olympics.[1] She did not finish either of the events she competed in.[2]"

It states that she did not finish either of her races at 2010 Olympics. This is false, she did finish the second one, only was not placed. A "DNF" in ski racing means you Did Not Finish (at all-- did not receive a time) -- she DID finish her second race, but again was not qualified/place to do second run. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.234.123.165 (talk) 18:39, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've fixed it. I hope my characterization is accurate. I said she was disqualified (DSQ) in one event and did not complete the other. I'm not sure about the "disqualified" description. I'm also struggling to understand why she is notable, although per WP:ATH, just participating at the Olympics is enough.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:00, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Stephen D. Leonard
Article has sources which don't meet requirements, nor establish notability by themselves--they appear to be primary. Aside from the article's unsupported claims, there's nothing to confirm claims of notability--it's not clear that the sources even confirm his existence. Creator and sole author continues to remove maintenance templates, insisting that all issues have been resolved. I can't find anything on Google about this person.... 99.137.209.90 (talk) 01:46, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * None of the references in the article mention this person, and I have been unable to find any trace of him or the books that the article claims he's written. It's nominated now at Articles for Deletion, and may well be eligible for a speedy.  Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  03:01, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If it's a hoax, it isn't blatant, so I guess the AfD process needs to play out.  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328  Let's discuss it  03:07, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Griffin O'Neal
I understand that the "Legal Troubles" section of this article is sourced to the teeth, but am I alone in thinking it should perhaps be trimmed back? As it stands there are two sentences describing the subject's career, and four paragraphs regarding his various run-ins with the law. --<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots 20:15, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Legal troubles of Griffin O'Neal - not a suggestion, more of an observation. - Off2riorob (talk) 21:31, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I know nothing about this guy other than what I just read in the article (and I'm also no BLP expert, just happened to be browsing here), but if he's vastly better known for his legal troubles than for his acting career, shouldn't the article reflect that? (I mean, if people are more likely to be looking up "the guy from that boating accident" or "Ryan O'Neal's son who keeps getting arrested" than "the guy who appeared in Assault of the Killer Bimbos", is there any reason for the article to pretend otherwise?) Theoldsparkle (talk) 21:41, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I see your position - but he is far from a major criminal (probation - community service) and the article currently more represents a rap sheet of minor convictions than a life story of a notable actor. Griffin O'Neal's criminal record - [[User:Off2riorob|

Off2riorob]] (talk) 21:43, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that the section on his legal problems should be trimmed back (though not eliminated) per undue weight, especially since all these incidents save one took place 19 or more years ago. I don't trivialize his offenses but the article needs balance, espcially since the main reason he is famous is because his father is more famous.  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328   Let's discuss it  05:25, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that the article as written now gives too much detail about his legal troubles, especially since alone they would not make him notable enough for an article, and because his true reason for notability is his family connection not his own acting career. I suggest we remove the details about each incident, and incorporate it back into the personal life section. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 11:18, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems to be a degree of support for a rewrite with a bit less weight and a merge into the personal life section - I had a look, not a two second job ... anyone like to be bold? Off2riorob (talk) 20:43, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I messed with it a bit. See what you think.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:23, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well that's certainly a significant improvement! --<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots 21:51, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If Jimmy Wales would give me $45.00, then we could buy the subject's official biography and improve this Wikipedia article even more.Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:24, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Michael Richard Lynch
I attempted to make the page more neutral and less of a puff piece. An anonymous editor keeps undoing my edits. No doubt, Lynch has been successful, but I am don't think we need to compare him to Bill Gates in the article lead. Another editor, Dormskirk, seems to agree with me, but I wonder if others have anything to say. ComputScientist (talk) 19:55, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I have made some clean-up edits. Hope this helps. --BweeB (talk) 20:35, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The anonymous editor is still at it, undoing some of your edits and copying his version of the lead a bit further down the page. It's a bit exhausting. ComputScientist (talk) 08:47, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Mohammed Omer
In short, every edit that doesn't praise Omer and his journalism has now been deleted. As a reporter on Israeli-Palestinian affairs, Omer must be considered a public figure. Among the controversies surrounding his journalism, has been his repeated claims that his deceased brother Hussam was a civilian with no connection to any political or violent organization. This has been debunked by several news paper reports and one human rights organization on the incident, as well as the armed wing of Hamas themselves (see the page's Edit history for ). A non-user ("Evidence Only") has now deleted everything that doesn't directly applaud Omer, while adding unnecessarily long citations from award committees and Noam Chomsky, all in erroneous punctuation and linking style. It cannot be undone, due to "conflicting intermediate edits". Thomasjohansena (talk) 13:24, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi, I put some of it back but then I had a better look at it and there did seem to be some uncited and unreliably cited content that I was not prepared to take responsibility for so I took it out again. Off2riorob (talk) 15:42, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Steven Schier
Self-Promoting — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.5.87 (talk) 14:15, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed the amazon sales links and two unaccessible externals - I almost sent it to AFD... professor with a couple of not notable books... article has been here for a few years . Off2riorob (talk) 15:11, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Robert Machado
Machado's one claim to fame was his role as catcher when Cubs pitcher Kerry Woods struck out a record-tying 20 batters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.149.171 (talk) 23:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Not sure what your point is. Machado is notable for being a major league baseball catcher.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:22, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Meera (Irtiza Rubab)
I've only had a chance to make a cursory look at the article and talk page, but it looks like the article needs partial protection from regular blp problems from ips, as well as a complete rewrite per WP:BLP. Does anyone have time for a closer look? --Ronz (talk) 05:05, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Martin Kemp
Link at bottom to Martin Kemp offical website - takes you to a porn site with no relation to Martin Kemp. I think for deceny this should be edited but I am unable to do so. It also has taken me 20 mins to find where to report this matter to - maybe a report button would be good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.97.252.233 (talk) 21:40, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Article is Martin Kemp (entertainer) - links removed, the other official link in the infobox is bogus as well. MilborneOne (talk) 21:48, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Regulars to this page, please note I've taken the IP's final sentence seriously and begun a discussion here. I'd welcome your input there. To the IP, if you're still watching this page, thank you. --Dweller (talk) 12:12, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Martin Sheen#Alcohol problems

 * - Martin Sheen

In the Martin Sheen bio, under the headline of "Alcohol problems" there's a derogatory comment about his sexual preferences, which seems to have no factual basis, or relevance to the subject for that matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.142.188.223 (talk) 00:17, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That was pure vandalism and was reverted.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:20, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Derek Goldby
Items have been added to this biography which are untrue — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.59.123 (talk) 20:54, 18 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, and you seem to have removed them, in this edit, after I'd already toned them down, in this edit. Does the source cited, The Stage for 2011, not mention any cast conflicts or similar problems at all? Or are you contending that it's fictitious that Goldby worked in England, directing plays by Lars Noren, in the 1990s? Or what, in fact, are you contending?


 * What do you think of my suggestion at Talk:Derek Goldby?


 * Do you have any reliable independent sources that you can point us to, that discuss what Goldby was doing during the 1990s?


 * Do you believe there are untrue statements in other parts of the article, or only that one paragraph? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:06, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Regards my biography this year I directed Autumn and Winter in London I have done no other productions. There seem to have been some malicious edits. If this continues, is it possible to withdraw my Wikipedia page? 86.179.59.123 (talk) 04:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, malicious edits (and malicious editors) can be dealt with. I'm particularly concerned by this edit, made on 7th May 2011, which is flatly contradicted by this piece in the Guardian, published two days later. On the talk page for the article, however, the editor responsible for that edit correctly points out that many of the earlier versions of the article were unreasonably promotional, and not neutral.


 * The article in its current state also relies heavily on sources such as "personal observation" or "conversation with Derek Goldby" - that's not acceptable as a source for a Wikipedia article.


 * In general, if a person is only borderline notable by Wikipedia's standards, editors will likely defer to the person's wishes regarding deletion of the article about them. However - although I don't know much about theatre - I suspect you don't fit into that category (that is, it's likely that your notability is not in question.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:04, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

References and data in the article have repeatedly been removed by unregistered user [|86.179.59.123], who has admitted he is the subject of the article himself and talks above of 'malicious edits'. Yet this user has shown in the past to use the article for (self)-promotional purposes, given his non-neutral and highly promotional (and since reverted) additions to the article, and seems intent on removing non-glorifying information. This constitutes unwanted editing, and goes against BLP, particularly NPOV. To avoid an edit war and repeatedly undoing his vandalizations, I shall leave the article, but suggest semi-protection. Any thoughts?Neil pye (talk) 12:59, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

J-P E. Mattila
The biography page of a living person, Mr. J-P E. Mattila has been under a continuous attack by the user "Tutkinnanjohtaja". This user is apparently representing and / or working for the Finnish government and has opted to use Wikipedia for libelous campaigning against this living person. References to tabloid level articles and other defamation has been undone and removed repeatedly. The current version provides a neutral viewpoint, but I feel this biography should get some attention and protection against future similar attacks.Barrister568 (talk) 07:26, 19 October 2011 (UTC)


 * sent to

Preity Zinta
Refer to the second sentence of the first para. "She has appeared in Hindi porn films of Bollywood, as well as Telugu, Punjabi and English language films."

As far as my knowledge, she is a main stream film actress and has not acted in porn movies. Please edit to remove 'porn'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.184.68.92 (talk) 08:18, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Betty McCollum
Potentially libelous information regarding her religious affiliation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nhelgeson (talk • contribs) 16:30, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the report - Removed - Off2riorob (talk) 17:52, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Anthony :Tony" Clavier
Anthony Clavier was a bishop in the Anglican Church in America. He resigned and was later deposed for sexual misconduct. The sourced information about this has been removed several times from the page Tony Clavier. Stjudestucson (talk) 20:55, 19 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I've also removed your additions. If that information is true, you will need to provide sources for it. Simply saying you transcribed it from an article isn't sufficient, as per Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons. Dayewalker (talk) 21:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Michael Cherney
User:Moscowrussia has returned from a long period of inactivity (after first being blocked) to edit this article. He is interested only in this article and the Oleg Deripaska article. In the Cherney article, he is removing properly sourced information from the article and adding unsourced information. I have reverted him and warned him, but to no avail. I have now opened a topic on this issue on the article's Talk page, reverted him one more time, and invited him to discuss the content issues on the Talk page.

More eyes and opinions on the content issues would be helpful.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:59, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Brian Camelio
Brian Camelio

An SPA is making extensive changes to this article, some good, but removing anything that could be even remotely negative even when well-referenced to BBC News. Unfortunately, the BBC article makes one small (irrelevant) error so the editor disregards it as entirely unreliable and is pushing multiple other editors around to push his positive POV. Please could someone weigh in. Ta. GDallimore (Talk) 23:23, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I can see there is an extended discussion on the Talk page about whether to include the patent lawsuit in the article. My initial reaction is NOT to include it, even though it has been reported by reliable media sources (except for the blog, which shouldn't be there). My reasoning is anyone can file a lawsuit challenging something, and until it's adjudicated, it's nothing more than accusation. However, I don't feel very strongly about it, mainly because I don't think the material is all that negative, compared to other kinds of legal accusations.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:41, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly, it's not negative. The SPA is claiming removal on the basis that it's contentious, attempting to whitewash the article, and bullying a couple of other editors around. This bullying is my main reason for taking a stand and asking for more help. GDallimore (Talk) 23:43, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I said it wasn't "all that negative" - I never said it wasn't negative. If someone is trying to invalidate Camelio's patent, that's certainly negative. I dunno about the bullying. He's persevering, and he's arguably acting against consensus (I count 3 editors in favor of inclusion and one (James) against). I also think James's comments about reliable sources are mostly wrong, but your rhetoric doesn't help.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:50, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Sanjay Gupta
Can some kind BLP person/persons please check over - a user questioned me over the neutrality, and at a glance the "Michael Moore dispute" section, if nothing else, seems tricksome. Ta.  Chzz  ► 01:12, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Muhammad Ilyas Qadri
Active COI and sock-puppetry in this article (SPI raised, see this edit ). works for Dawat-e-Islami whose website is being used to edit the article. Assuming the latest IP is the same editor, see although I know this is another issue (sorry, dashing out for a long walk with my dog). Dougweller (talk) 07:29, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This one looks like a candidate for AfD to me. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:20, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

David Thodey

 * - CEO David Thodey - update request to Career section

Hi - I am new at this but have been referred here to request this change.

Apologies if I am going about it the wrong way!

I'd like to suggest a change to the Telstra CEO page of David Thodey

It mentions under his Career section;

David is the Chairman of Telstra subsidiary TelstraClear in New Zealand and Chairman of Basketball Australia.

But in fact, the Chairman is Diane Smith-Gander. See: http://www.basketball.net.au/index.php?id=438

DanMikhael (talk) 01:02, 20 October 2011 (UTC)


 * For the record, I referred him to Talk:David Thodey to request the change. This is a simple change; I don't think this needs to be handled here, even with DanMikhael's admitted conflict of interest. —C.Fred (talk) 01:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)


 * - ✅ - diff - Off2riorob (talk) 12:11, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Tony Clavier (part 2)

 * - Part one is a small report just above -

I will appreciate it if some other editors and administrators could take a look at the Tony Clavier article. An editor who claims some former personal association with Clavier at that time is repeatedly adding mostly poorly sourced comments about alleged moral failures by Clavier - especially vague "references" to photocopies of transcribed church documents the editor claims to have seen. Also, to my mind, much of this isn't being written in an acceptable NPOV manner and the claims are being given undue weight within the article. Any expert help with this will be appreciated. Thanks. Anglicanus (talk) 10:33, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I left the user that is desirous of adding this content, User:Stjudestucson, a link to this discussion and a request not to replace it without further discussion/consensus support. Off2riorob (talk) 12:02, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks like sources are on the editor's side.   |&p_product=MH&p_theme=realcities&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&s_site=miami&s_trackval=MH&s_search_type=keyword&s_dispstring=anthony%20clavier%20prelate%20AND%20date(all)&p_field_advanced-0=&p_text_advanced-0=(anthony%20clavier%20prelate)&xcal_numdocs=20&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no&s_trackval=GooglePM --GRuban (talk) 12:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, nice one GR. Looks like with, those sources, a well written addition/update, (perhaps nowhere near so extensive as the one being added previously) to the article could well be required. Off2riorob (talk) 12:14, 20 October 2011 (UTC)


 * - In 1995 after allegations that Clavier attempted to have sexual relations with some female parishioners he resigned his position as archbishop of the Deerfield Beach Anglican congregation and in July 1995 the house of bishops subsequently declared that he had abandoned his vows and on deposed him.[1][2] - Off2riorob (talk) 12:26, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I can't find a cite that supports this bit - "in July 1995 the house of bishops subsequently declared that he had abandoned his vows and on deposed him." - anyone find something that supports the claim? Off2riorob (talk) 12:50, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hrr. I can find this, but it's pretty feeble: a casual mention in a court document not focusing on the issue. http://azappeals.com/Anglicanopening.pdf page 7. Unless we can find something better, we should leave it out. The document does, however, explain where our editor is coming from. "As a result, some members of the parish conceived a great deal of animosity toward Bp. Clavier. ..." --GRuban (talk) 15:13, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hes adding it back - this is fifteen years old its not like it was yesterday is it. I reverted him again and 3RR warned him. - I left him a link to this discussion and he has just reposted the undue policy violating content again - Off2riorob (talk) 16:50, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Johan Staël von Holstein
Ok, this article is basically too long, and too biased. Right now it reads like a promotional bio for some commercial product. I think the Swedish version of the article is more appropriate in scope. Compared to many other (truly) notable Swedes, like Afzelius, Kamprad, etc, this is just disproportionately extensive. The Acknowledgement is just full of subjective praise. I will start pruning here shortly if nobody objects. Andailus (talk) 11:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable, looks a bit bloated in a promotional manner to me. Looking at it, it would benefit from some additional independent sourcing and perhaps condensing a bit. Off2riorob (talk) 11:38, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Michael Lewis
The subject has written at least one article which reeks both of bigotry and of blatant failure to get his facts right, and been called on it (though not enough, IMHO). Unfortunately, the editor most concerned with getting this into the article about him, User:Mattmcds, is using intemperate language and ad hominem attacks, is flailing out and SHOUTING AT even those editors (like me) who agree that this information belongs in the article somehow but aren't willing to violate our procedures in order to get The Truth out, and keeps inserting the same ill-formatted, poorly-footnoted language. Could somebody without a horse in this race look at the article, the talk page, and the posts to my talk page, and offer some suggestions? -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  12:42, 20 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I made a few edits to improve it, a bit less vagueness and tweaked and tidied. - not overly happy with it - the Irish stuff is original research.... I am considering removing those aspects of it.... - I removed what is imo clearly original research - although true its not in the reference and it appears its only the person wanting to add the original research and not an independent reliable external that has called the subject out on this?  - Without a rebuttal his opinions and comments in the content about Ireland are not independently notable and should also be removed.....I also note that the first claim that he was mischarachterised as a trader is only in what looks like a blog post and the defamation libel is as yet only an allegation and not really worthy of addition if and when is is actually proven - I am considering removing it all - f*** what a waste of my time - .... Off2riorob (talk) 13:56, 20 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The Irish stuff is definitely problematic, and the quote from Tavakoli concerns me as it appears to be a self-published blog article. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I took it all back out. Off2riorob (talk) 14:13, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm less sure about the libel suit, if it has been widely reported. While the Tavakoli comment troubles me, I don't see anything wrong with quoting from the Bloomberg article that she cites, in which he downplayed the risks of derivatives. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:16, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Feel free to add whatever you feel to take responsibility for - libel suits are ten a penny and imo only should be reported here is found proven. I am not adding any of it. I also noticed after investigation that whoever is repeatedly adding this and is clearly angry about the Irish article also moved the energy of the libel allegation to seem as if it was racial focused when it isn't at all. - he added "sued for defamation of his portrayal of a chinese-american in his book" - as if chinese-american was an issue when it isn't at all. - Off2riorob (talk) 15:02, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * In its original form, anti-Irish bigotry was "racial" in nature, since the Irish weren't seen as fully white; so some of the more fanatic members of the Irish Diaspora are inclined to see racism where others might see simply Anglophilia and ethnic snobbery. I do hope, though, that you can avoid whitewashing the fact that Lewis' article was in fact full of lies and prejudice, to an extent appalling to those who remember the era when Vanity Fair was a quality magazine. -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  18:37, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Feel free to add whatever you feel to take responsibility for, or rather what, as an experienced editor, what you feel is policy compliant. Off2riorob (talk) 18:40, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess it's OK to omit the libel suit pending disposition. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:24, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Aaron Barr
This page is about me. The information about remotely wiping my ipad and iphone is false. This never happened. It was claimed by Anonymous and has been repeated over and over in articles but is not factual.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronbarr (talk • contribs) 17:02, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Apart from the one event anonymouse stuff you appear only notable in relation to HBGary Federal so I redirected you there. Off2riorob (talk) 18:22, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Curt Mega
I am on the verge of nominating the Curt Mega article for deletion because he's just not that notable, but in the meantime, I've been fighting an incipient edit war over whether the sourcing of this BLP is to reliable sources. One SPA and one IP editor are repeatedly putting back items either unsourced, or sourced to the actor's agents' site or to imdb, none of them a Reliable Source. Should I stop trying to keep the article properly sourced and just go with AfD? The Mark of the Beast (talk) 18:45, 20 October 2011 (UTC)


 * He looks like he would survive an AFD to me. Such fanzine additions are pretty normal on such articles. If I was you I would just revert and if repeated request semi protection - usually the fanzine stuff is at least not defamatory or libelous. Off2riorob (talk) 22:40, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Des Cahill
I am a reired Primary Teacher from Corofin Co.Clare. I see in the Wikipedia article regarding RTE Sports Broadcaster Des Cahill that he is of Ethiopian Origin. This as far as I am concerned is Rubbish. Both Des Cahill's Partents were born in Parish of Corofin. They lived in the Parish for a short time after their Marriage. Patrick Cahill was a Primary Teacher and taught me at school. His wife Nora nee O'Reilly was a nurse. Patrick Died in Dublin in June 2002.His wife (Des's mother) still lives in Monkstown. Patrick's mother's maiden name was Tierney and born locally.I don't believe either the Tierney or Cahills had any Ethiopian connections. There are still many of the clan in Corofin. Nora O'Reilly's Mother was Bridget Barry. Bridget Barry's mother was Lynch from Kilfenora, a member of a Family steeped in the musical tradition of Kilfenora. Nora's father was John(Jack) O'Reilly. Jack's mother was Neylon from Moyhill same townland as O'Reillys and yours truly. Yours Sincerely - Thomas Burke — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.216.112 (talk) 22:20, 20 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the report - I removed it. Off2riorob (talk) 22:37, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Gilgamesh in the Outback
The Gilgamesh in the Outback page was archived without resolution and now is locked again for a month. How is resolution supposed to occur?98.218.161.68 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:43, 21 October 2011 (UTC).
 * Discussion on the Talk page and better behavior once the article is unlocked.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:46, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Princess Charlotte of Wessex
This person does not exist. I know that the person who created the article has already been removed from Wikipedia but his/her article is still on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.153.184 (talk) 07:51, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Speedied and salted --Dweller (talk) 11:57, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * For the benefit of the IP editor 67.etc and any other new editors, let me decode Dweller's use of Wikipedia jargon: Thanks to your report, this hoax article has been immediately deleted, and measures have been taken to prevent it from being created again.  Welcome to Wikipedia, and thank you for bringing  this hoax to our attention.  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328   Let's discuss it  06:01, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * There's also an article under Charlotte, Princess of Wessex. I've nominated it for speedy deletion. --NellieBly (talk) 12:59, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you should request a checkuser look at the accounts creating these hoaxes and see if there are any sleeper accounts. Off2riorob (talk) 13:13, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Susan Lindauer
This article has been massively edited in recent times and would seem to require extensive attention. I know next to nothing about this person and her case, and about the sources used however. Not sure if this is the right place to flag this as I'm not exactly reporting a specific problem, more a suspected one. Mezigue (talk) 13:11, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Blimey, people should really check out the lede of that article... --Cameron Scott (talk) 13:23, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thats a bad article - lots of SPA contributions to it over time - one sock account that was told to refer to WP:BASC - such crap articles with no hope of ever being correct according to wikipedia policy and guidelines should imo be deleted and salted. Why host and publish such low quality and policy violating content about living people? Off2riorob (talk) 15:39, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You might well be right. I was kinda hoping that someone somewhere would know how to put it right. Mezigue (talk) 08:06, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Is there ever going to be a decent way to write a, encyclopedic style conspiracy theory about someones life, with rumor and claim and counterclaim? Personally I doubt it - one option would be to look through the history and find the best/a better version and revert back to it and then semi protect it. This version is not as bad as what we have now - imo - I would still remove all the soapboxing from the citation/reference section and look at removing a couple of the external links. - I boldly trimmed in in half to what imo is a much more readable less conspiracy theorist write - what do you think to my edit? Off2riorob (talk) 14:29, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Shilpa Shetty
User:Shshshsh has reverted my removal of what I view as clear BLP violations from the biography of this Bollywood actress, The disputed material includes a tabloidery-style dating history and, worst of all, a lengthy and extravagantly detailed discussion of members of her family's alleged involvement with the "mafia". The latter is wretchedly handled; it is described as a "still pending" case, even though all the relevant sources date to 2003. I've had disputes with this editor over BLP and sourcing issues before, but this one approaches the outlandish. The "controversy" sections in this article are far too long in comparison to the treatment of subject's acting career, sometimes duplicative, and often include text that is unsupported by the cited sources, and needs even more extensive cleanup. Other opinions welcomed. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:54, 20 October 2011 (UTC)


 * - I don't know who wrote that tabloid coatracking crap but whoever it was, they have never read a biography. Can I have the opportunity to re write it? That content about the mafia in relation to Shilpa can be easily written in a single sentence. Off2riorob (talk) 23:09, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with some of the removals on the personal life section, but I do not agree with the removal of the mafia links. It can be shortened, but only after a proper discussion and a consensus as to what exactly should be cut off. Shahid  •  Talk 2 me  23:51, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * No, that's not how WP:BLP works. Contentious material is removed, and then added back only if and when there is a consensus to do so (which currently there clearly isn't). Black Kite (t) (c) 00:37, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with Black Kite here, if the material is contentious and not perfectly sourced, it's got to go and go immediately. It doesn't matter if it's escaped notice by other editors, it as correctly removed from the article. Talk page discussion is the next step. Dayewalker (talk) 00:54, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the main issue is that this series of incidents with Shilpa's parents have little to nothing to do with her. In fact, the inclusion of it in such a large section in the article seems to give credence to the statement that was in the section, that the accusations were being made to tarnish Shilpa's image through her parents. This has nothing to do with her. Sure, it should have a sentence or two, but other than that, since she's not involved, it shouldn't be in her biography article. Silver  seren C 02:14, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I do not care if it's there or not. Shahid  •  Talk 2 me  09:22, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well that seems to resolve the issue about the mafia paragraphs as a minimum - I was wondering where to start condensing it to focus on Shilpa and really I agree its not actually about her, what would we write? - Off2riorob (talk) 13:30, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * - In 2003 Shilpa's father was accused of a connection to the bombay mafia when a disputed creditor was approached by a claimed member of such demanding said unpaid bill related to a promotional appearance of Shilpa. As of 2011 a trial has yet to occur. Shilpa had nothing to do with this financial dispute and no connections to any mafia. Off2riorob (talk) 13:30, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Several years ago I also raised a concern regarding this entire section, even as a mention alone. The user who added it, namely user:Ekantik did not agree to it. As you see, my point is not the inclusion of the paragraph, I think you know me enough time to know my stand on such stuff, Off2riorob. I do not think it's necessary, but I would never remove it out of the blue without prior discussion. I think it's ethically wrong.
 * The fact that she in a relationship with Akshay Kumar, however, is noteworthy. Shahid  •  Talk 2 me  14:08, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * User:Ekantik - ah yes, now inactive, here he is adding the mafia links claim to the lede. I agree we all need to be as respectful as possible to each other and keep in mind that all have improvement of the project as a primary objective just we see the how to differently. (we all have off days) - discussion is always a good first step. At least we all seem to agree the huge section on mafia links is better out than in, so we can be happy with that improvement. The other stuff I haven't had a real look at, so I imagine HuWo.. will be along to make his case for any other removals, or by default if discussion isn't forthcoming that cited content could be replaced as with any disputed bold removal or addition. Regards. - Off2riorob (talk) 14:23, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Off2riorob. Shahid  •  Talk 2 me  14:49, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Prince Fielder

 * - Prince Fielder was born in Toronto, Ontario, Canada not Ontario, California

In an audio format interview Cecil Fielder clearly states that his son Prince Fielder was born in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. ref> http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/10/20/cecil_prince/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by RadcliffeA (talk • contribs) 13:27, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * All the other sources list it differently. We'd need more than one radio interview to over-rule all the other sources.  Actually please relisten to the interview.  He does say he was born in toronto, but then corrects himself and says he was 1 year old when he moved to Toronto and grew up there.--Cube lurker (talk) 13:49, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If anyone else wants to check my interpretation the comment is in the final 60-90 seconds of the interview linked on the page RadcliffeA cites.--Cube lurker (talk) 13:56, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if he's correcting himself. It seems like too much of a coincidence that the sources have listed "Ontario, CA". It's really just the hyperlink (in the case of Baseball Reference, which may be the source for the ESPN and MLB info) that suggests it's California, and not Canada we are talking about. I'm not comfortable changing our article based on the interview (CL's right that Cecil isn't totally clear), but I think maybe an email to Baseball Reference should be written to ask for clarification. The Interior  (Talk) 14:05, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If you note, Cecil Fielder Began playing in Toronto in 1985 that would seem to corespond to his later statement that Prince was 1 year old in Toronro.--Cube lurker (talk) 14:14, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's inconclusive. It's really more an issue of where Mrs. Fielder was in 1984!  The Interior  (Talk) 14:21, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Jason Motte
These two paragraphs need to be taken out of the bio as they are NOT relevant and defamatory to Albert Pujols.

On October 20, 2011 Jason Motte blew a save during Game 2 of the 2011 World Series. Motte gave up a single to Ian Kinsler. Kinsler then stole second base like the hero that he is shortly before Elvis Andrus hit a single to shallow right-center field, advancing Kinsler to 3rd base. On the cutoff throw Albert Pujols was charged with an error after he failed to make a basic cutoff catch. On the next 2 pitches of the game, Josh Hamilton and Michael Young hit consecutive sacrifice fly balls allowing Kinsler and Andrus to score. The Rangers ended up winning the game 2-1 and Jason Motte was charged with the loss.

Pujols inability to make such a simple play has led to the rapid development of conspiracy theories. Most of which center around Pujols throwing the 2011 World Series and then signing with the Texas Rangers in the upcoming offseason. A national poll conducted found that 99% of baseball fans believe this to be true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.43.230.34 (talk) 14:36, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Good call on the removal, bad call by the two editors to revert this dreck back in. I've watched the article and will leave notes on the editor pages about their reverts to add it back in.  <b style="color:darkred;">Ravensfire</b> ( talk ) 14:46, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Mikis Theodorakis
insists on mentioning the same interview, in which Theodorakis is alleged to have made anti-semitic comments, twice in a row. The sentence he keeps re-adding refers to the same interview made in early 2011. His argument that it is a "different source" is specious: Basically he just wants to say over and over again that Theodorakis is an anti-semite, Theodorakis is an anti-semite, as much as possible for effect. There are many sources that mention the incident, shall we include a separate sentence for each one? I have opened a thread on the discussion page, but the user refuses to participate. Allegations of anti-Semitism are serious. If they can be substantiated, they should be mentioned. But not gratuitously in this fashion. Athenean (talk) 17:12, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * No. Repeating the same content multiple times, each time using a different source is redundant and, frankly, ridiculous. I will keep an eye on the article. Dr.K. <sup style="position:relative">λogos<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πraxis  17:51, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


 * while it is the same interview, it is a different quote from the interview. different information. important information. the source is irrelevant (same or different). the content is king. so, i think the re=added material is important enough to stand alone. (otherwise, i wouldn't add it back in). i am sure the paragraph can be re-written to include both so all will be happy. ok? Soosim (talk) 07:01, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * In the article this sentence already exists: In early 2011, Theodorakis made comments on Greek television that were reported as being antisemitic. This was according to the Jerusalem Post. You want to add: According to the Los Angeles Times, "in the course of a (2011) television interview" Theodorakis "openly conceded that he was an anti-Semite. The JP and LA Times report on the same interview and essentially the same topic, which is the reported antisemitism of Mikis Theodorakis. I fail to see why we have to repeat the same topic twice. Dr.K. <sup style="position:relative">λogos<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πraxis  07:25, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * you see no difference between "openly conceded that he was an anti-Semite" and "comments...reported as being antisemitic."? then i will remove the second and leave the first, ok? is that a good consensus? Soosim (talk) 07:28, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * No, it's not. The second is more informative. Basically, you just want to say over and over again "Theodorakis is an anti-semite, Theodorakis is an anti-semite". Well, it's not going to happen. Athenean (talk) 07:29, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Openly conceded that he was an anti-Semite is not directly supported by either of these newspapers because they do not transcribe the exact words of Mikis Theodorakis. As such for a BLP it is better to keep a distance from these allegations and not report these facts in a headline-type editorialising way. Unless a better source becomes available which accurately transcribes Theodorakis' statements. Dr.K. <sup style="position:relative">λogos<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πraxis  07:44, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * dr k and athenean - you are way off base, sorry. here is the exact quote from the LA Times: "We're in danger!" warned renowned composer Mikis Theodorakis, who in the course of a television interview openly conceded that he was an anti-Semite. "Zionism and it leaders are here, meeting in our country!"
 * it clearly says that he 'conceded that he was an anti-Semite." not sure why you seem to indicate that it doesn't. the LA Times is a very reliable source, with the reporter Anthee Carassava, reporting from athens. this wasn't someone asleep at the desk in some LA suburb reading into it. so, no need for anything better than that. dr k, please rv your edit of mine, or simply change it, as i have now suggested three times, to the LA Times quote. thank you. Soosim (talk) 06:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Not "off base" at all. Your above comment clearly proves my assertion that you are primarily intent on labeling Theodorakis as an anti-semite, i.e. juxtaposing the words "Theodorakis" and "Anti-Semite", and nothing more. I don't see why we have to follow the LA Times. For example, the Jerusalem Post doesn't use the same characterization as the LA Times. So I don't see why we have to give prominence to one view over all others. But first I'd like to confirm that we are at least on the same page as far as using one sentence only for the 2011 interview, not another and another and another. Athenean (talk) 07:17, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * not sure how you can say it is not off base when dr k (are you the same person?) said that the source doesn't say 'x', when the source indeed says 'x'. plain and simple. and regarding using one sentence: i said that IF we only use one sentence, it should be from the LA times. is that ok with you? Soosim (talk) 12:53, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * No I am not the same person. We ARE going to use only one sentence, and it's going to be the second one, because it is more informative. Athenean (talk) 16:48, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with Athenean. Please find a better reference if you want to put words into Theodorakis' mouth. The reference I ask you to find is the exact words of Theodorakis calling himself "anti-semite". Until such time that you do find the source I asked you there will be no change from the current one. And please drop the insults. It is incivil and rather naive asking other editors if they are the same person and violates WP:AGF. Thank you. Dr.K. <sup style="position:relative">λogos<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πraxis 03:59, 18 October 2011 (UTC)


 * the LA times says he said it, by a reporter of greek origin (or so it seems - important since she speaks greek), who was reporting from athens, heard it first hand, etc. - so, without any further objections, i will go to the consensus we have reached of only listing the LA Times quote and not the other one. (or both, but i doubt that this would make you happy). thanks. Soosim (talk) 07:16, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Consensus? What "consensus"? Care to explain? Athenean (talk) 07:20, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Please read WP:CONSENSUS before you use the concept in a discussion. You have no consensus. Two editors so far disagree with you. This is exactly the opposite of a consensus. This is called disagreement. You also copied this discussion at the Theodorakis article talkpage. This is called forum shopping. Please see also WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Dr.K. <sup style="position:relative">λogos<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πraxis 12:46, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * thanks dr k. but i do think you need to read the rules again. Soosim (talk) 16:37, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * We should clearly add the clarification from the subject and his reasons for his comments, such as,"Why then do you call me your enemy when I think you know that I am now, as I have been in the past, a friend of the Jewish people? I will tell you why. It is because I adamantly oppose every arbitrary act of violence or hatred, wherever it comes from. I have always and will always be on the side of the unjustly treated and the weak, such as the Palestinians, the women and children of Lebanon and besieged Gaza, against whom the all-powerful and arrogant State of Israel applies a policy of continuous violence, spreading death and destruction from which not even the civilian population is excepted. " - I think the way some people use anti Semite has completely devalued so as it now has come in real usage to mean someone the doesn't like something the Israel state has done. - Off2riorob (talk) 17:18, 22 October 2011 (UTC)


 * thanks rob - as i have said all along, keep the original quote and your idea is a good one to add the full info since we now have it. (and he does say, 'i am an anti-semite'. and explaining why is nice. Soosim (talk) 17:29, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, you should add some of the explanation he clarifies, "So let us dismiss games of propaganda; there are some who call me a Zionist! Some who accuse me of saying, ‘Jews are the root of evil,’ or in the updated, improved version, ‘Jews are the root of all evil.’ A downright lie, of course. The actual fact is that when I was giving an interview and talking about the role played by the USA, a country which I think is going through the most vicious stage of imperialism, waging war and genocide in Iraq and Afghanistan, I said that Israel, unfortunately, supports the USA and its present foreign policy, which is the root of Evil, putting Israel close to the root of Evil. I have recently been accused of admitting that I am an anti-Semite. They had more luck here. So what exactly did I say in that television interview? (I said) ‘I must point out that I am an anti-Semite. I really love the Jewish nation. I love Jewish people and have lived with them. But much as I hate anti-Semitism, so I also hate Zionism.’ With the whole section to view instead of just one part taken out of context as was posted on the Internet, you would have to be a complete imbecile not to realise that the term anti-Semite was, without doubt, a slip of the tongue made at the end of a gruelling, two-hour-long interview. How could a professed anti-Semite go on in his very next sentence to say that he loves Jewish people and hates anti-Semitism? Be that as it may, my enemies saw the chance they had been waiting for and pounced. But you" - Off2riorob (talk) 17:40, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. Context is important. Thank you Rob for taking the time to examine this. Dr.K. <sup style="position:relative">λogos<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πraxis 19:38, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

C. R. Stecyk, III
overall passionate tone suggests self-promotion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.168.172.121 (talk) 05:17, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I gutted the article as nothing was reliably sourced. Either no sources or IMDb or one non-existent interview. The article is now almost empty. He may be sufficiently notable, but I haven't researched it.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:00, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Amitabh Bachchan
Could someone please deal with the edit request here? Talk:Amitabh_Bachchan. Thanks,  Chzz  ► 08:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I added to your answer and declined the request.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:48, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Mark Gordon
Hi,

A contributor called D.E.Mophon repeatedly keeps posting inaccurate personal information on this page.

He keeps adding Mr Gordon's ex-wife, and her unverified biography and incorrect information about his children. Much of this is wrong - divorce dates, children's ages.

We would like to keep this page as informational as possible and not dwell on gossip or self-promotion. If indeed former marriages are relevant, I don't understand why the contributor removed the reference to Mr Gordon's current wife? There is some kind of weird vendetta going on. Please can you help stop it? Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Company12345 (talk • contribs) 21:30, 22 October 2011 (UTC)  — Company12345 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * 1. Who is "we"? Does this username mean that you represent some company; or do you represent Gordon; or both?
 * 2. You are removing sourced content, claiming it is wrong. What published sources do you have to show that the content you removed is wrong? Verifiability is not optional here; where are your reliable sources? -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  22:08, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I think there may be an issue here - his ex wife appears to have married earlier this year - http://www.accesshollywood.com/princess-dianas-younger-brother-marries-for-3rd-time-at-family-home_article_49489 - and her article Karen Gordon also has that detail. unless its a different canadian philanthropist..? If its correct then this bio Karen Gordon - might need renaming to the The Rt. Hon. The Countess Spencer - but I am far from an expert in naming conventions. - marriage is also verified on the Charles Spencer, 9th Earl Spencer article. Off2riorob (talk) 22:27, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I would say that marriage to a notable person is worthy of reporting, a small comment only unless there are extrenuating additional noteworthy details. Have you got a WP:RS for the remarriage? Off2riorob (talk) 22:35, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

March 2011 - http://www.life.com/celebrity-pictures/110018049/2011-sxsw-music-film-interactive-festival-source-code-premiere - verifies the name Sally Whitehill and that they are a family - Off2riorob (talk) 22:53, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Hosni Mubarak
An IP with no edit history has posted a report of Mubarak's death, sourced to what appears to be an Egyptian newspaper's website. Four hours after the news report went online, no other news source seems to be reporting it. I can't read Arabic, and Google translation isn't too helpful on this one, but the news report may be saying that he's in some sense "clinically dead" -- which can mean any number of things, not all of which mean emphatically dead. I've therefore reverted, but would appreciate further input. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 00:23, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I see no reports of his death, and no reports of an acute health crisis.  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328  Let's discuss it  04:57, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

James Glimm
The biography for James Glimm contained false and defamatory material. I have deleted this material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.186.215 (talk) 02:28, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I've emailed WP:OVERSIGHT requesting the removal of a particularly egregious diff from the history of that page, and I've also requested the page be temporarily semi-protected to prevent more of the same (this isn't the first time, and it seems OTRS have been contacted about this recently as well.)


 * Additions of this to watchlists would be useful too. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:50, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

The articles NXIVM and Keith Raniere
How do the BLP guidelines apply in the case of these two articles?

The first article, NXIVM, is a company specializing in personal development seminars led by the referent of the second article, a BLP of Keith Raniere.

Request: That administrators take an interest in this serious but interesting matter, but please not to make any edits to the articles without first familiarizing yourself with the WP:RSs on the discussion page of the article Keith Raniere. At least take a quick overview first.

The problem is, as you will see, the sources call the group a "cult", a "cult-like organization", or otherwise describe him and it negatively.

Therefore, we allow him and it to use their own websites to cite much of the articles to "balance", and we allow them to mis-represent other references, because of BLP and NPOV guidelines: it wouldn't be fair to him and it, the logic goes, to simply faithfully report the main points and information in the articles; they say; because of BLP guidelines, we have to write a NPOV article despite the sources; even though we don't have any WP:RSs other than their own websites and a fact or two cherry-picked here and there out of references; that says positive things about him and it.

Tough case! But very interesting....Chrisrus (talk) 23:18, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The thing is, if we do what I'm planning to do, which is to follow WP:FIRST and so on; if I faithfully report all the notable important facts that we've been able to find about him and it; it's going to be a pretty damning article. This is because the WP:RSs are pretty much a bunch of exposes, spelled with an accent.  They are all investigative reports on a pretty creepy cult-like organization with lots of details, with titles like "Ex-NXIVM Insiders Tell All" and "Inner workings of creepy cult exposed" and so on.  Don't take my word for it, look at the RSes yourself, they're pretty much all collected on Talk:Keith Raniere.  Is there another analogous case somewhere?  Will it be enough for WP:BLP if we just quote a bunch of stuff from thier websites?  There are a few denials here and there in the sources, but for the most part it's just "refused to comment for this article", mostly.  Has anyone ever seen anything like this before?  Please advise. They're likely to sue Wikipedia or Jimbo or me or you or whoever they can, because that's what they usually do.  It's very interesting and all, but it's may turn out not to be fun at all.  Want to try and disuade me?  This may be your last chance.  Chrisrus (talk) 01:08, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * OK. I went ahead and created this: Keith_Raniere.  It's not much, but I think you can see where this is heading if I continue.  Was I wrong?  Is this a violation of WP:BLP guidelines?  Chrisrus (talk) 14:19, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Field cricket Gryllus pennsylvanicus.oggrus (talk) 20:12, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * We're now at the top of the list! Still, no attention, but I haven't given up, so hopefully I can keep it here as long as it takes.  How much of what is in those sources on KR's talk page is permissible to transfer to the article? Are you ok with all of the periodicals as within WP:RS? Chrisrus (talk) 07:37, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * | Click here!


 * You gotta step up
 * Get to the bottom of it
 * Dig deep and go behind the scenes
 * You gotta step up
 * Get to the bottom of it
 * Go deep, show 'em what it means
 * You gotta step up
 * Pull down and take a number
 * Hold firm, nip it in the bud
 * You gotta step up
 * Pull down and take a number
 * Be firm, figure out what's what
 * Step up!

— Preceding unsigned comment added by User: (talk • contribs)

NPOV doesn't mean wrong. There is no need to artificially "balance" the article - however the subject's response to accusations is reasonable to cite, whether reported by third parties (preferred), or self published, as long as it is verifiable. The subject's own writings are a reliable source for what they have said in those writings. They are not a reliable source that the movement is not a cult. Self published sources are also RS (of last resort) for items that are not likely to be contentious, such as where an organisation is based. Other claims need to be considered in the context of the claim, including the culture in which it is made. For example many organisations claim to have "representatives worldwide" - this is generally a good faith claim, and also generally wrong. More precise claims tend to be true, but may still be misleading "representatives on six continents" for example is a grand claim, but may mean the CEO has a brother-in-law in Sydney and a lawyer in Bolivia. Summary: try to present the significant facts with due weight, use sources to back those facts up, follow your own discretion in terms of risk of malicious persecution or misguided prosecution, stick to WP:BLP, WP:RS. Rich Farmbrough, 11:43, 23 October 2011 (UTC).


 * Geez, thanks Rich! I was beginning to despair of getting any response.  I will keep what you've said in mind and would appeciate what other administrators might have to add.  Please keep an eye on the situation and help if you will/can.  Chrisrus (talk) 14:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Inmate numbers
An editor removed an inmate's number from an article. Another editor restored it, and I reverted (now twice). The restoring editor says it's needed because it's like a social security number and can be used to look up an inmate. I've seen inmate numbers in other articles and have always removed them. Although, legally, inmates lose a many rights that free citizens have, I don't see why Wikipedia should put in that kind of identifying information about inmates. Is there any guidance on this issue?--Bbb23 (talk) 22:36, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, I said: it's like issn , that is, the International Standard Serial Number used to identify periodicals, a form of authority control. --Lambiam 12:11, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That makes even less sense. The numbering isn't even the same from one state to another, let alone standardized internationally. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:23, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * No precedent that I'm aware of, but I don't know what encyclopedic need there is to include this info. causa sui (talk) 00:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that such information as an inmate number should generally be considered superfluous information unless there is reasonable cause to feel that confusion could result from omitting that piece of information. Bus stop (talk) 00:23, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I did perform one of the reverts to restore this information. I admit my actions were spawned at seeing the inmate number compared to a SSN. I think it is a better argument to suggest the information is superfluous and a level of depth the interested reader should expect to research. While I admit this is a better argument, I do not concede that in general, an inmates prison number should never be incorporated as article prose. In fact I can imagine several reasons why such information is relevant. My76Strat (talk) 01:21, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The comparison was by another editor, and I continued it. It's not completely specious, either. The laws regarding social security numbers are complex and vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but I don't see a big difference between an SSN and an inmate number. Both are identifying information and they are neither public or private exactly. Mostly, people get upset about SSNs because of pfishing issues. In any event, I'm curious what your "several reasons" are.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:39, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It is probably true that inmate numbers don't have associated "pfishing issues" as social security numbers do. But I think there is an implied insult in presenting identification of a person as their inmate number, because it very effectively strips away the individualizing qualities that a personal name conveys. Indeed in many accounts of prisoners the inmate number is included with surrounding language expressing satisfaction in what may be a fall from a higher station in life. But Wikipedia is supposed to not partake of some of the seedier sides of tabloid journalism and I think this is an instance where WP:BLP would generally be applicable. Bus stop (talk) 01:59, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I think Bus stop is spot on here. The number is only significant in two ways (a) as a convenience for prison bureaucratic processes, and (b) as a means to dehumanise and stigmatise individuals. Neither of these are part of Wikipedia's remit, and unless there are compelling reasons in particular cases to do so, I can see no reason to include such information. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:18, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with your assessment of the two basic reasons. I disagree that one reason should be dismissed as a "bureaucratic process". This man transformed himself, through his crime and became, even more so, a number.


 * It is plausible someone could be interested in corresponding with an inmate. This is not possible under a given name. Funds, stamps, an ability to purchase a coke, are all dependent on if someone cares, and then if they have the correct number. There are searches that a person might reasonably desire to accomplish, and having the number will significantly refine the results to useable information. It's not unreasonable that a person might believe they could find this information in an encyclopedic resource like Wikipedia.


 * It begins to seem unreasonable when instead we create reasons to segregate reasonable facts, by imagining some superseding moral obligation. Following this path will next assail a reliable source for perhaps themselves mentioning this fact. I am not advocating we banish the mans name, but my imagination allows if as fair if at one venture we acknowledge "Steven J. Hayes, known as inmate 97425, remanded to the Connecticut Department of Corrections ..." Other than that, "Fuck him" which is a personal opinion, but one I do hold. My76Strat (talk) 04:58, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Two points: You might think that they are reduced to numbers because of their crimes, but not everyone in the world agrees with that assessment. Some of us find the dehumanization distasteful at minimum; grotesque when it is carried out by a person against themselves (as in this case), but much moreso when it is carried out against helpless victims (like prisoners) by people who hold themselves to be innocent. I'm sorry if that sounds polemical, but the point is that Wikipedia cannot be a platform for extending dehumanization. The executioners will pay them their due, and the rest of us should pay whatever respect we still can. To the second point, I don't want that Wikipedia would become a platform for distributing information about how someone could contact these prisoners, especially since we have no indication that they want to be contacted by anyone. Anyone who has good cause to contact them (i.e. friends and family) doubtlessly know how by now. That the numbers could be used by members of the general public to interfere with their private lives, if what you say is true, is another excellent argument against including it. causa sui (talk) 06:01, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * My76, I know you have already removed the number from the article because you believe a consensus has been reached to do so. So, I only write to correct two points you and others have made. First, you can look up an inmate in Connecticut without an inmate number. This is also true at least in some other prison databases that are online. Obviously, I'm not going to check all of them. Second, although much is done in prison to dehumanize prisoners, I don't think assigning them a number is one of those things. The system justs wants a unique identifier. In California, which I'm more familiar with, a prisoner is assigned a number that remains with him throughout his incarceration for the offense(s) he was convicted of. After he's released, if he commits another crime and is sent to prison, he is assigned another number. It's really just a bureaucractic process, not a demeaning one.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:51, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The inmate numbers are public record. This is a non-issue. What is someone going to do, use his inmate number to get an AMEX card? Niteshift36 (talk) 06:27, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I dont see a problem with having the inmate number in the article as Niteshift36 states that number cant be misused by anyone.--BabbaQ (talk) 09:42, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, I removed the content as an abundant caution to the spirit of the emerging consensus, If discussion concludes consent for inclusion, as appropriate, that would be fine; someone can add it back. I did not mean to imply searching inmate information was impossible without the number, only that having it can refine the results more specifically. My only contention is that including it should not automatically be construed as negative any more so than such a negative story would otherwise reasonably be anticipated to contain. But it's an opinion, an the effect one way or another is minimal to my regards. My76Strat (talk) 03:27, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * On further reflection I think the inclusion of inmate numbers in articles could be acceptable, but I think such inclusion would have to be done "tastefully". I think My76Strat makes a very persuasive argument for this. But I take exception to the statement "Other than that, 'Fuck him' which is a personal opinion, but one I do hold". Mr. Hayes is a living individual and on BLP grounds we should not speak disparagingly of him, even on Talk pages. Bus stop (talk) 14:10, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * As a general issue, criminal proceedings are public knowledge. It is not a BLP issue to say that someone has been convicted and sent to prison. More specifically, inmate numbers can be used in some systems to locate prisoners and determine their release dates. For example, the US Federal prison system has an "Inmate Locator" which can be searched by either name or inmate number. The prison a person is or was held in and their incarceration dates are probably of legitimate biographical interest.   Will Beback    talk    17:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

A few points: (1) They've both confessed in open court and been found guilty by a jury, so the BLP issues about describing them as criminals are obviated. (2) They will never be released, but this discussion may be significant for how we treat other notable criminals. Most important: (3) I'm surprised that you think it's a good thing for us to enable tho public to (a) know where prisoners are located AND (b) know when they will be released. I understand that this information is available in other public sources, but it does not follow that we ought to be a platform for it's distribution. We don't know that prisoners (these or others) want to be contacted by whatever random people are reading their Wikipedia article, and I think we can safely assume that nobody would want such a person showing up at the gate when they are released. In the event that either of these men (by divine intervention, no doubt) did manage to be released from prison within the span of their remaining natural lives, vigilante retribution would be a serious risk, and it might be a risk in the case of other high-profile prisoners. That is a serious BLP concern if anything is at all, and I don't know what critical encyclopedic need outweighs the issues of privacy and personal safety. causa sui (talk) 17:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This is biographical information. If they were dead there'd be no concern about saying they were incarcerated in a particular prison between certain dates. We routinely include the residences of people, at least in general terms. We often say what they are planning to do. By saying that someone is on the city council, we are indirectly telling readers that the subject will appear at the next council meeting. By saying that someone is starring in a play, we are telling readers where the subjects will be on a particular date and time. Further, the release date is not, to the best of my understanding, the same as the date they will actually walk out the door due to administrative vagaries. Also, prisoners are not necessarily released directly, but are sometimes transported somewhere else for release because prisons are often in remote locations.
 * I think that rather than looking at this as a BLP issue, it's probably easier to look at it from the NOR perspective. While secondary sources may say that a convict is incarcerated at San Quentin and may also say that he or she is expected to be there for 15 years, they would rarely publish the inmate number itself. Instead, that information generally comes from primary sources. As a rule, we should not publish material which has only appeared in primary sources unless already referred to by secondary sources. On that basis, I'd see a good reason for not including the inmate numbers unless other sources have found them worthy of note.   Will Beback    talk    18:06, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with BeBack on the point of primary source vs secondary sources. If the number is only published in primary sources, then I am inclined to want to leave the number out of wiki. --BwB (talk) 18:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Inmate numbers are generally not useful on BLPs, however on historical convicts they can be very useful. I would discourage their use on BLPs, especially as the scope for abuse has not been demonstrated to be negligible, and no consideration has been given to the risks that may obtain in every jurisdiction in the world, which may be more or less severe than someone "applying for an AMEX card". I would not want to suggest that we should forbid inmate numbers as they are often part of URLs, photos, document scans etc.. Rich Farmbrough, 12:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC).

Jan T. Gross
An issue has come up on the Jedwabne pogrom article. Editors have been inserting the phrase "Jan T. Gross himself praised the conduct of the IPN investigation." based, apparently, on a statement he may have made in the cited source or another one that "To było bardzo przyzwoicie zrobione śledztwo", which means, more or less, "That was a very decently conducted investigation". Gross brought the Jedwabne pogrom to public attention, accusing Poles of killing hundreds of Jews in it during WW II. Polish nationalists have since directed their fury at Gross, and been doing their best to undermine his findings and/or credentials. The Polish IPN did a subsequent investigation, which in some ways corroborated Gross' views, and in some ways disagreed with them. The problem with the insertion, in my view, is that it's not at all clear what exactly Gross "praised", and what it means. Because of the vagueness, and in general, strong hostility to Gross, I've been insisting it stay out of the article until BLP issues are resolved one way or another. Unfortunately, despite the clear wording of WP:BLPREMOVE, other editors have been re-adding it. I'm fine with whatever the outcome of this discussion is, but BLP is pretty clear that the material should stay out until it's settled. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 17:06, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see how this can be a BLP issue. It is not about Gross, it is by him, it is neutral, and it is on subject (a quote on the investigation that is a major part of the article). It is in no way, shape or form critical of his person (the investigation was done by a reliable and respected body, so it is not like he is supporting some controversial or fringe party). As far as I know, the quote has not been a subject to any controversy (unlike some of his books, but this is not an issue here). One could just as well, or perhaps even with more justification, suggest we should remove all the references to Gross and his work from this article... not that I would support that, of course. Still, if we cannot quote him, how come we can cite him? This is rather ridiculous. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 17:39, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with Piotrus, "if we cannot quote him, how come we can cite him?" --BweeB (talk) 18:02, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * He wasn't quoted though, and it's not clear to what he's referring. Is his view properly represented or not? What exactly did Gross say about the IPN investigation, and in what context? Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 18:15, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a little difficult to have a discussion in two places, but to see the Gross quote in context, see Talk:Jedwabne pogrom. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 18:19, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec) This isn't a BLP issue at all. We have one source being used in the article, Gross, and then we have another source being used in the article, IPN. Then we have a statement - reliably sourced - in which the first sources says something positive about the second source. Where's the BLP issue? The statement:
 * is not controversial
 * is reliably sourced
 * is not biographical in nature

BLP is nowhere near close to being relevant here.

Even in cases where two sources disagree, as long as they're both reliable and notable, NPOV requires us to present both sides of an issue. Here we have sources which agree, for the most part! Or at least one source praises the other. Even in cases where two sources disagree, virtually ALL Wikipedia articles rely on works by living authors. To suggest this means, by BLP, that we cannot include any statements in which these living authors refer to each other's work is just silly and shows a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of what BLP is. Coming from a long time editor and administrator this is quite disturbing.

The other part of Jayjg's statement above is likewise inappropriate. Specifically:

and in general, strong hostility to Gross, - none of the editors involved in the present discussion have ever shown any "strong hostility" or even "mild hostility" or anything close to that in regard to Gross here. This is just Poisoning the well.

I've been insisting it stay out of the article until BLP issues are resolved one way or another. - it's pretty obvious to anyone who's paid attention to BLP issues and worked to adequately enforce BLP that this isn't a BLP issue at all. BLP is a very important and serious policy. Misusing it in a way like is being done here dilutes it and cheapens it. Those of us who take BLP very seriously have legitimate cause for concern where this kind of thing happens.

Unfortunatly, despite the clear wording of WP:BLPREMOVE, other editors have been re-adding it. - unfortunately BLPREMOVE is not relevant here, which again is pretty obvious to anyone who's familiar with BLP policy. Invoking BLPREMOVE as a stand in for IDON'TLIKEIT is inappropriate.

<font style="color:blue;background:orange;font-family:sans-serif;"> Volunteer Marek  18:13, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Jayjg that the sentence is used in a non-neutral way to make it seem that Gross agrees specifically with the conclusion of the IPN presented in the previous sentence (there being no more living perpetrators). This would amount to putting words in Gross's mouth, and as such would indeed be a violation of BLP. I also agree with him that Gross's opinion of the investigation is not particularly relevant or notable. I agree that the sentence should be left out entirely. I believe WP:BLP trumps consensus here, and that WP:BLPREMOVE applies. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:18, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Jayjg points out that "Polish nationalists have since directed their fury at Gross, and been doing their best to undermine his findings and/or credentials" and refers to the "in general, strong hostility to Gross." As far as I can see the biggest concern here is not with a BLP violation but has now come out as one with Polish nationalism, and possibly the assumption that Polish nationalism has motivated the addition of this content. If this assumption has merit, then that's more of a case for DIGWUREN than BLP. For what it's worth, in my view, I can't see how this content is in any way anti-Gross. Quite the contrary, it shows Gross as a vital part of the academic consensus and it wouldn't do a Polish nationalist any service in some malicious conspiracy to advance the Polish cause.


 * If an editor wanted to show the Jedwabne inquiry as one in which Polish nationalists raised their ugly heads, then there is plenty of room for that in the article. But repeated removal of the content, , , while blaming the problem on "other" editors is hardly the best solution.


 * Finally, it would be an easily-made mistake to assume that any qualifying remarks about Gross are derived from Polish nationalism. For one, the Chief Rabbi of Poland says: "Gross writes in a way to provoke, not to educate, and Poles don't react well to it. Because of the style, too many people reject what he has to say."


 * I propose, as a solution, to simply use a direct quote rather than a paraphrase of Gross. But someone will need to translate it. It really is relevant because it is thanks to Gross that the inquiry started, so his comment at the end of it completes a full circle.


 * Thanks -Chumchum7 (talk) 18:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh wow I did miss the part where Jayjg says Polish nationalists have since directed their fury at Gross, and been doing their best to undermine his findings and/or credentials.  which borders on a personal attack, by insinuation. The irony here is of course that the statement is included to BOLSTER Gross's "findings and/or credentials". <font style="color:blue;background:orange;font-family:sans-serif;"> Volunteer Marek  18:54, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Could you both please stop going on about your erroneous inferences, and stick instead to the issue at hand - that Gross has not been quoted here, and has been misrepresented? Save the rest for some appropriate forum please, whatever that might be. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 19:41, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If you don't want people drawing inferences then don't make statements which insinuate them. As to the issue at hand, Gross has NOT been misrepresented. The text is reliably sourced. You're making stuff up (in addition to mis-using BLP policy in a way which chips away at its credibility). <font style="color:blue;background:orange;font-family:sans-serif;"> Volunteer Marek  19:48, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Others have also pointed out why this is a BLP issue, in this very thread. Rather than attacking other editors, please focus on ensuring that in the future the material used in the article complies with WP:BLP. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 20:38, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually others have agreed that this isn't a BLP issue at all, in this very thread. Rather than misrepresenting what people have said, please actually bother reading WP:BLP and its purpose, rather than using it as a bully stick to enforce your POV on an article. I am not attacking any editors - again, you're making stuff up - though I am being critical of one editor, you. Because it seems you do not understand, despite being an administrator, what BLP is. The material used in the article fully complies with WP:BLP. Please focus on *real* BLP issues rather than cynically and disruptively abusing BLP policy to win a content dispute because by doing so you're ensuring that in the future the job of people who really DO TAKE BLP seriously is going to be so much harder. <font style="color:blue;background:orange;font-family:sans-serif;"> Volunteer Marek  20:43, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, some people have said it's a BLP problem, and some have said it is not. We're all aware that you claim it's not a BLP problem; you're entitled to your opinion. But please stop trying to beat us over the head with your personal opinion again and again, as if by dint of constant repetition it will somehow make it true. Instead, please focus on the specific issues raised, and do your best to actually respond to them, rather than attacking any editors, making repeated assertions that you're right, or making dire warnings about the collapse of BLP if we don't agree with you on this specific issue. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 01:34, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Above I said that this was a disruptive abuse of BLP policy. Let me articulate how. By Jayjg's logic, I could go to pretty much any Wikipedia article which uses sources written by living authors, claim that these authors are being misrepresented (without bothering to explain how), and remove whatever text I want to while claiming BLP violations (because these were "living authors"). This would in effect be a license to remove any text IDON'TLIKE from Wikipedia which relies on presently living authors. Obviously this isn't the purpose of BLP policy. The purpose of BLP policy is to protect living people, NOT to provide Jayjg with a pretext to remove any text he fancies. I'm sorry if there was some confusion over that. <font style="color:blue;background:orange;font-family:sans-serif;"> Volunteer Marek  21:07, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't make any arguments in my name, or "by Jayjg's logic" - this page has no need for straw man arguments or slippery slope logical fallacies. This section is about the statement attributed to Gross, and only that; please stop wasting our time with large amounts of off-topic logical fallacies. And finally, and for what I hope is the last time, comment on content, not on the contributor. That's basic policy (like WP:BLP), so please start respecting it. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 01:34, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * How about you stop wasting our time with your nonsensical invocation of BLP policy where it doesn't apply? And stop acting in a condescending manner, insinuate things about editors, try to bully them by slapping their talk pages with irrelevant templates, insult them by referring to their statements along the lines such as above ("wasting our time with ... off-topic logical fallacies") or making passive aggressive (and false) statements such as please focus on ensuring that in the future the material used in the article complies with WP:BLP or have you read BLPREMOVE yet? (both versions of "have you stopped beating your wife", bad faithed kinds of statements)
 * Behavior like that is far more uncivil, rude and obnoxious then somebody (me) asking you to cease this kind of behavior. Need I remind you that you are an administrator and are supposed to observe a certain level of decorum and respect in your interactions with others?
 * Anyway. You have failed to articulate in any way shape or form why this is a BLP issue, just asserted it. Which is why I explained, again, why this is not a BLP issue.
 * Let's try one more time, on topic:
 * We have source A used in the article. We have source B used in the article. We have a reliably sourced statement from source A about source B, which involves a positive statement. Where in the world is there a BLP issue here?
 * And yes, according to YOUR logic, any statement which is sourced to a living writer can be removed under the pretext that it is a BLP violation. It isn't. <font style="color:blue;background:orange;font-family:sans-serif;"> Volunteer Marek  02:34, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

We're all always learning and I'd like an objective, neutral investigation from Wikipedia into whether its policy WP:BLPREMOVE was applied correctly by the administrator involved in editing this content. I hereby request an outside administrator point me to where I can apply for that. If the policy was applied correctly, then there may be a case for raising greater awareness of it, given that it appears to have surprised several established editors and even a second administrator. Additionally, it may set a policy precedent that Wikipedia might need to take a closer look at. Thanks, -Chumchum7 (talk) 23:41, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Additionally, we appear to have established on Talk page discussion at Jedwabne Pogrom that Gross said, in Polish, "This was a very properly conducted investigation", which is what the above content "Jan T. Gross himself praised the conduct of the IPN investigation" paraphrases. Jayjg as an involved, editing administrator threatened to block fellow editors from the article who undid his removal of phrase "This was a very properly conducted investigation", per WP:BLPREMOVE, on the grounds that it might be mischaracterizing Gross's comment. So every editor there is currently working under the threat of an immediate block from a fellow editor if they restore the content, until this BLP issue is resolved. Regardless of whether WP:BLPREMOVE was applied correctly in principle, we now practically need a 'resolved' tag on this BLP noticeboard section - with an assertion whether this is or is not a BLP issue - in order for editing to return to normal at Jedwabne Pogrom. If the positioning of the content in the article needs to be discussed, then it can be discussed on the talk page as per normal. I trust that positioning of a quote or accurate paraphrase is not a BLP issue. -Chumchum7 (talk) 09:58, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Fairly evidently the reason the quote from Gross is relevant is that the findings disagreed with his in a major way, notably the number of dead. Separating the disputed text into its own paragraph removes the implication that Gross particularly supports the suggestion that there are no living perpatrators, and applies it to the investigation as a whole, which seems reasonable, unless the original source shows that was not his intent. Rich Farmbrough, 12:24, 23 October 2011 (UTC).

Giuliano Mignini
I am concerned the article as it stands violates WP:BLPSTYLE as the article's structure focuses only on criticism's of the individual's career and no biographical information at all. I have suggested it be removed until more (or any) biographical information can be added. (Connolly15 (talk) 15:30, 21 October 2011 (UTC))
 * He shouldn't even have his own biography here - he is under attack from supporters of Knox. He's a one event notable only related to the Kercher murder and should be merged back into the murder of Kercher article or the trials of Knox and Sellico article of whichever one of the content forks he would sit better at. Off2riorob (talk) 15:56, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Concur with under attack from pro-Knox editors, but disagree about the one event. The Monster of Florence and his over-reaching investigations also are notable.  That stuff certainly doesn't apply to any of the MoMK articles (except when WP:COATRACKed in, of course).  He's notable enough for an article, but it needs patrolling.  I've been so utterly burned out of anything MOMK related after the BS of the past year and continuing crap though.  Good luck trying to keep it (and crazy chain of articles spawned from MoMK that should be purged and salted.  Permanently). <b style="color:darkred;">Ravensfire</b> ( talk ) 16:02, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I regret supporting a Knox article - its clear now she also is only notable in relation to the murder and that is all her article is about - we should have created a stub and fully protected it. - As regards Mignini - If he was truly notable here Monster of Florence - I would, and do, wonder why his name isn't mentioned there. IMO thats all just add on minor issues that are simply being reported here to avoid the true situation that he's only really notable in relation to Kercher's murder. As it is the article is not a bio at all. The Monster of Florence content wants merging into to the Monster of Florence article and the Kercher stuff to one of the spawned from MoMK. I doubt if an AFD would return my opined position. Off2riorob (talk) 16:09, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, I think the existing article should be split and merged into the respective articles on the murders. I have tried to find any biographical information on him and it is very hard - basically, because the only thing he is known for is prosecuting these two cases.  I could understand if he became a quasi-public figure like Marcia Clark after the cases then the article could be justified. (Connolly15 (talk) 20:02, 21 October 2011 (UTC))

I have nominated the article Giuliano Mignini for deletion, discussion here. (Connolly15 (talk) 19:52, 23 October 2011 (UTC))

Amanda Knox
As this person has been acquitted of murder should a book titled Angel Face: the True Story of Student Killer Amanda Knox which is now obviously wrong be in the article? The Last Angry Man (talk) 17:49, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The existence of a notable published book is not a BLP violation. Hipocrite (talk) 17:50, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Explain how a book which gets 5 mentions on google news is notable? First hit mentions it in passing, the second just mentions the title, the third mentions the title only, then goes on to attack the daily beast for printing it. forth is Italian and only mentions the title, fifth also Italian but is a tv show so am unable to comment on how much detail is given. How exactly is the book notable? The Last Angry Man (talk) 18:04, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Unsurprisingly, based on that metric, it's the most notable entry in the bibliography. Please don't manufacture rationales for your poor actions after the fact - it's unbecoming. Could you detail any other accounts you use to edit Wikipedia? Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 18:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If that rationale makes it the most notable then remove them all - they are all about the murder anyways where they are duplicated anyway - Seems like a decent explanation of reasons not to include to me. The listing of not notable books and tv shows there appears to arise out of a fear that the article will be deleted - they were added to assist and assert her notability. Off2riorob (talk) 18:09, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * X3You said it was notable, therefore it was you not I who manufactured a rational. If it not notable then why is it there at all? The Last Angry Man (talk) 18:15, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That's fine - an editorial decision that should be made by the editors of the article. My problem was with removing a book from the list because an editor didn't like what it's title was. Hipocrite (talk) 18:12, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hm, I do see his point though - bibliography sections are usually written by the subject -the section needs titling - publications  about the murder of M Kircher. - or something similar - and then you realize immediately that they don't belong there. Off2riorob (talk) 18:18, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, not a problem for the BLP noticeboard - one that should be handled by editors of the article. Hipocrite (talk) 18:20, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I would think that an article on a BLP which has a section devoted to non notable books which call the BLP a murderer when she is not is a problem for this notice board. The Last Angry Man (talk) 18:26, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Many books/articles/publications are published with shock and awe titles. Their use or inclusion is not based upon their title, but rather the merits of the article/book.  I mean pick a major political figure (John Kerry - Swift boats, Rush Limbaugh - big fat liar, Obama, Bush, OJ Simpson, etc) and you will find reference to books whose titles are not Neutral.  The question is, how is the book being used/cited, not whether or not it is used/cited.--- Balloonman  Poppa Balloon 19:29, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * They are not used as sources, it is a list of books about the murder trial. The Last Angry Man (talk) 19:40, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * In that case we definitely don't get rid of it simply because our knowledge of the subject has improved. If the book was accurate and reliable as of publishing and then subsequent knoweledge doesn't dispell the value of the book as a historical piece showing what the perspective was at that point in time.  If the book were shown (or known) to be a gossip rag, biased, and unreliable, then I could see removing it based upon content... but based upon a title?  Which was accepted as accurate at time of publishing?--- Balloonman  Poppa Balloon 19:51, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Accepted as accurate at publishing, even if a sound argument, would be a factual stretch. And to exclude it based based on the title – when that's all there is to include – is entirely reasonable. It's not being used to show what the perspective was at any particular point in time. The list of publications about the murder belongs there and not on the Amanda Knox article out of sheer relevance. JFHJr (㊟) 21:01, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that the list of books does not belong in the article because of relevance. However, it's not clear to me why we even have an article on Knox. Is she notable for anything except the murder? I realize that WP:BLP1E permits an article about her because of the persistent coverage, but she could easily be folded into the murder article as there's almost nothing in her article specific to her that needs to be retained or couldn't be included (probably already is) in the other article. (Just read Rob's comment in the Mignini section above. Apparently, I'm not alone.)--Bbb23 (talk) 00:35, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I think merging/redirecting would be appropriate in this case. I'm sure you'd have to chase it with WP:salt. JFHJr (㊟) 01:11, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I couldn't agree more. There were a good many people who voiced that it should be recreated despite concerns that it would become a content fork. At some point, it may need to be AfD or full protect as a stub to keep the soapboxers away. <font face="High Tower Text" size="1px"><b style="color:#00C">⋙–Ber</b><b style="color:#66f">ean–Hun</b><b style="color:#00C">ter—►</b> 03:52, 22 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Like many others, I fail to see how simply listing the title of this book in the relevant bibliography section is somehow improper or a violation of WP:BLP. Certainly there would be a strong argument for BLP violation if the book were being used for inline citations in the article (but that isn't the case, as far as I can tell). The existence of a book list, which titles to include, and how to order the books are questions that have resurfaced many times in talk page discussions - as I understand it, the current exclusions are books that are self-published or that have not attracted significant coverage in reliable secondary sources. I have to agree with Berean Hunter's assessment regarding the spin-out articles: as it stands, much of the content at Amanda Knox is either duplicative or trivial. Not only that, but we now have Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, Timeline of the Meredith Kercher murder case and Template:Kercher timeline (also not forgetting the article on the TV film, Amanda Knox: Murder on Trial in Italy, and Giuliano Mignini, where the notability of the subject is debatable and a large chunk of text is pretty much just a content fork). While I think that the "Trials..." article is a good addition (with much more merit than a separate Knox biography), I wouldn't be surprised if the "Timeline" article soon appears at AfD (what with the new template, it's more or less redundant). The number of offshoot articles appears to me to be excessive. <font color="#CE2029">Super <font color="#FF3F00">Mario <font color="#FF8C00">Man  21:24, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

In an apparent effort to make Knox more notable, an editor has added her accusations of sexual harassment while in prison. In my view, this is a BLP violation of the unnamed prison administrator based on WP:BLPSPS. (Two references are provided to the same source instead of using the name field.) I have not reverted the changes because of a ridiculous war over the same editor's copyright violations and improper use of the rescue tag.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:31, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I tidied up the cite markup, but I agree the claim presents a WP:BLPSPS violation because the subject is making claims about a third party, and those claims are based entirely on primary sources (knocking out two parts of that policy). There's nothing about the publisher that indicates it's doing anything but repeating her claims. I'll leave a note at the talk page also. JFHJr (㊟) 17:55, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, they aren't having the desired effect on User:LedRush who has ignored them and added yet more accusations, citing an embarrassing gossip rag as one source for his additions. I've commented more fully on the Talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:16, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Its just bloat trash - Ow, I was in jail and I was frightened - how shocking - yawn. Off2riorob (talk) 19:21, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * There are tons of articles reporting that Knox was sexually harassed. That two editors here who have devoted countless hours to bashing Knox find it humorous to make light of the claims is telling.  There have been reports in media for years about her false positive HIV test and the leaking of the information to the press.  In this "BLP" removing binge, also things have been deleted about Knox's well noted (and well-reported in secondary sources) relationship with an Italian lawmaker (he wrote a book on it).
 * Actually, you even got the lawmaker part wrong in your edit. You said that Knox befriended him, when the source said that he befriended her, and your edit about the book was confusing, whereas the source's assertion was clearer. What's also amusing is that the comment in the source about the book was in passing to give context to the author's having told reporters about Knox's plans to return to the States. Really a big deal. Your edit gives no reason why anyone would care about what was written in the book or whether the book was essentially just an extended interview of Knox by the author, in which case must of it would effectively be self-published, uninteresting, and potentially violative of BLP policies (depending on what she said about whom).--Bbb23 (talk) 20:54, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If you are aware of a way of someone befriending another which is not reciprocal, you must live in an interesting world indeed. The simple fact is that all the information is sourced to secondary sources, and the material that was removed covers far more information than what is claimed to be problematic here.  That the only people removing the information have publicly stated they want the article deleted makes me suspicious of their motives (and the fact that their mass reverts cover far more than what they claim they do).LedRush (talk) 20:58, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Befriend is a transitive verb, not a reflexive one. In this particular context, based no the source, the lawmaker approached her rather than her approaching him. Precision is important. As I said on the Talk page, if you make multiple problematic changes, it's not suprising that editors will revert it all rather than do the work you should have done in the first instance. Your suspiciousness of other editors' motives is unhelpful and an unjustified distraction from the issues.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:17, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Bill Roberson
This is now at Articles for deletion/Bill Roberson; however, should it survives, the article claims that he is dead though I cannot find any proof of this whatsoever. The only other evidence is a Facebook page which appears to be a copy of our article. I can find no news reports of his death. Mangoe (talk) 04:19, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've removed all of the unsourced information, including his date of birth, where he's from, his personal life, etc. I've left in a short part about films he's been in.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:11, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I think we're settled on this one. Mangoe (talk) 19:48, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

List of Charvet customers
The issue at stake is the inclusion of Hugo Chàvez in the list of customers of the shirtmaker Charvet.

Previous episodes:
 * I asked here for advice in February 2010 concerning the inclusion of Hugo Chàvez in the list of Charvet customers.
 * The conclusion was: "looking for a stronger assertion of patronage".
 * Such assertion was published in November 2010 by Figaro Magazine, the weekly supplement of Le Figaro, one of three French newspapers of record (full quote here).
 * In December 2010, I started a discussion at the talk page of the article on this new and better source.
 * The conclusion of the discussion was to include in the article a mention that Chàvez taste for Charvet shirts was "confirmed by the shirtmaker himself" with a the following short quote:"Il reconnaît une de ses chemises sur le dos du président du Venezuela, Hugo Chàvez".
 * The inline citation in the article of Figaro Magazine included, on top of the above quote, a link to an extract of the Figaro Magazine article by Pickanews, a media monitoring service.
 * The link on Pickanews went dead after 3 months, per their general policy (see here).
 * recently deleted the whole passage on Chàvez, with the following explanation: "no proof - reference's link is broken".
 * This started a new discussion on the talk page of the article.

's new claim:
 * 1) "If the link is broken, the quote doesn't exist."
 * 2) "Even if that link existed, I don't see much value in that kind of comment."

My opinion:
 * 1) WP:ROT says:" Do not delete factual information solely because the URL to the source does not work any longer. WP:Verifiability does not require that all information be supported by a working link, nor does it require the source to be published online." The full quote of the related paragraph of the Figaro Magazine on the talk page of the article allows sufficient verifiability. Moreover, the fact that Pickanews keeps citations for 3 months only does not imply  they withdrew the link because it was "false", as suggested by.
 * 2) The new source provides the earlier requested "stronger assertion of patronage''".

Thanks for comments, RacconishTk 10:24, 22 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for distilling the issue at the top. Which "link" is broken? I looked at your latest version with Chavez in it and there is a note and then the note points to four references. None of those references is broken, so I don't get Odalcet's point. By the way, I don't much care about the history. I just care about whether Chavez is adequately sourced now (or at least before the material was last reverted). As a side issue, I confess to a bias against list articles, and this one - which wealthy/notable/pretentious/celebrity individuals buy their shirts at a fancy shirtmaker in Paris - hasn't changed that bias.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:09, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This one is broken. The 3 others (Bocaranda, Bruzual, Godos Curay) had previously been deemed insufficient. RacconishTk 08:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll try better to keep up. I thought there were four references from the footnote, but there are five (11-15), and the last one, the fifth, is broken. So, putting aside whether the material should be deleted or the reference tagged with dead link, why aren't the other four references sufficient to support the material?--Bbb23 (talk) 15:05, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You are right: 5 and not 4. The 1st source, Godos Curay, wrote "he is using French Charvet shirts" in El Regional de Piura. The 3rd opinion provided by was the source could be considered as not widely acknowledged as unreliable, but "not quite there yet" for being proven to be reliable. The 2nd source, Bocaranda, wrote Chàvez bought shirts at the "most expensive shirtmaker in Place Vendome". The opinion given here by  was it was "skirting arould the issue", not naming clearly Charvet. Same concern for the 3rd and 4th sources, Bruzual, referring to Chàvez "shirts from Place Vendome". RacconishTk 16:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Is there another place to buy expensive shirts at Place Vendome besides Charvet? If not, I don't see the problem.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If in doubt, I would not have used these sources ... but I respect the point made by other editors, in view of the controversial nature of the subject, on the lack of proven neutrality of the first 4 sources alone. Hence the question, whether the 5th source, coming from a reliable newspaper citing the shirtmaker, is sufficiently backing the claim. A question which, as I see it, has 2 aspects: Is the source reliable despite the broken link? Is the claim wording neutral enough? RacconishTk 17:55, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Aloe Blacc
aloe blacc birthdate marked citation needed/California Birth Records 1905 to 1995 lists child named EGBERT NATHANIEL DAWKINS born 7 January 1979 in Orange Co. CA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.18.145.160 (talk) 09:35, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but the general idea here is that we report what other people have reported and not that we report what we find in primary sources through our investigations. Off2riorob (talk) 14:05, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Rebecca Harris
The words "and could reduce road accidents" are contentious. The reference given does not lead directly to material evidence of the contention. It is no more than the opinion of the author. Agent0060 13:39, 23 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agent0060 (talk • contribs)
 * Removed. - needs a rebuttal and a rewrite if its to be included - some previous studies claimed more people were injured - @Agent0060 - you have over a hundred edits here, you can also, and are encouraged to WP:be bold and remove it yourself rather that reporting here, regards. Off2riorob (talk) 13:54, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Neil deGrasse Tyson
Someone keeps deleting (thrice already) my contribution in that talk page on Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Here is my contribution:

link to comment by the editor note - Pachomius2000 originally posted his full comment from the talk page here, I replaced it with a diff link

What's wrong with my contribution?

I just looked up my registration (because I forgot my password), yes I am registered as Pachomius2000 (Redacted).

Some time back my ip was blacklisted so I could not contribute, who are the people blacklisting other people's ips, and they must know that ips are changed among subscribers to internet service providers -- subscribers don't always get to use the same ip all the time.

Anyway, whoever you are in charge of answering queries here, please just tell me what is wrong with my contribution, and tell the person deleting my contribution again and again and again, to stop it.

Pachomius2000 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pachomius2000 (talk • contribs) 21:40, 23 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Talk pages exist to help improve the article. Your post was simply stating your opinion of the subject, that's it.  As was noted on the edit comment removing the post, Wikipedia is not a forum for you to express your views about something.  <b style="color:darkred;">Ravensfire</b> ( talk ) 21:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Dean Ornish
Article contained poorly sourced speculation that "Per Dean Ornish's recommendation, the late Steven Jobs spent the first nine months with knowledge of his pancreatic cancer [...] on a special diet before defaulting to conventional medicine and having the tumor removed on July 31, 2004..." Neither source backs up the claim, and the only non-blog source didn't even mention Dr. Ornish at all. Apparently the official biography of Steve Jobs tells a different story - that Ornish recommended surgery. (I have not read it myself, but anyone who has it should feel free to provide a stronger quote.)

Needless to say, as Dr. Ornish is a famous doctor, and the circumstances of Steve Jobs death are of keen public interest, we need to be extraordinarily careful to follow reliable sources with great precision.

Other than quickly removing this bit, which was likely libelous as written, I intend to avoid editing Dr. Ornish's entry from here on out, due to a potential conflict of interest. (I have met Dr. Ornish a few times socially, nothing more, but still I want to be very careful.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:52, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Hamza Andreas Tzortzis
Some people requested an AfD on Hamza Andreas Tzortzis's Discussion-page. The reasons is, that is no proof whatsoever for this person's notability and that this guy is without any relevance in public life or science. Furthermore, the article relies heavily on his personal websites (like ), thus violating the WP:SELFPUB-rules. Also, it has only one link to another wikipedia-article, what made me place the WP:O-tag above it. On the other hand his name gives a lot of hits on internet (though mainly though his own websites and some films on youtube) and he debated several notable people, like Rick Lewis and Simon Blackburn.

My question is:is it justified to start an AfD-procedure?Jeff5102 (talk) 09:30, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * At least there is an OTRS verification for the copyright release of the SPSource of the talkpage.Not much in my search results that is independent, but there is stuff in the search results like http://richarddawkins.net/videos/549391-debate-islam-or-atheism-with-hamza-andreas-tzortzis-the-president-of-american-atheists - he's written a book or two, its a judgment call - is he over the WP:GNG ? I doubt if he would survive an WP:AFD - 09:52, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I included your comments in an AfD-request. If the article survives the nomination, I know when a person like Tzortzis is notable eenough for Wikipedia.Jeff5102 (talk) 20:32, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Jan Perry
Reference Note 2 contains an obscene statement inserted in the last name of the author. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.84.188.205 (talk) 04:31, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed, comment removed. Dougweller (talk) 06:48, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Steve J. Rosen
A bit of a mess and since there's stuff about libel & slander in it, could use some attention. Dougweller (talk) 06:46, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Somnath Pal
Somnath Pal is an indian software engineer. Born in Burdwan(West bengal) of India. At present based in bangalore India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Princesomnath (talk • contribs) 09:53, 24 October 2011 (UTC)