Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive195

Amanda Knox article ' Public image' section
I deleted it twice, because it is basically reporting that a men's mag rated her as sexy, and that a comedian joked about whether men want to have sex with her. See Public image. I suppose it's possible a model or actress celebrity type BLP subject might reasonably be assumed to have no objection to this kind of stuff on a page about them. But AK is none of those things. It's been put back by User:BabbaQ. I think the section is intrusive for this subject and I think the section should be removed.Overagainst (talk) 23:22, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I do not take a stance on if the section is notable or not. What I wanted Overagainst to know was that it is better bringing it up at the articles talk page before removing a whole section of the article. --BabbaQ (talk) 00:16, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You put it back in one hour after I took it out. Your  edit summary:"excuse me but this is not "your" article per say. take it to the talk page. which i gues you should know by now. Thanks"  So that is your stance. You said I was 'not the owner' of article and I had to discuss in talk. But as anyone can see it I had complained about it in talk 10 hours before and no-one had disagreed. Anyway, the essential point is it is not encyclopedic content about her 'Media image', and is intrusive for this subject. It should be removed.Overagainst (talk) 16:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You seem more interested in "being right" than actually having a mature discussion. But hey that is your decision to not being able to handle having to discuss removing an entire section. Good to know.--BabbaQ (talk) 16:21, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, complaining why? And 10-hours? Its not long enough and you should always wait for more input. You will see at the Knox talk page what I think and I am no longer involved in that discussion. You will have to wiki-fight with the others instead. bye.--BabbaQ (talk) 16:29, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * BabbaQ, you accuse Overagainst of article ownership but you have displayed ownership yourself in this issue.
 * I think the sexiness stuff was given WP:Undue emphasis until the removals by Overagainst. This issue should have the briefest mention, with no particular details. Binksternet (talk) 19:23, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Binksternet, I have not done such a thing. I have said that I though a consensus was needed before the entire section was removed. User Overagainst pushed me for an answer about my opinion about it. And when I said it I was basically told that my opinion does not count and I have no idea what I am doing. So please get your facts straight. Regards.--BabbaQ (talk) 22:40, 16 February 2014 (UTC)


 * There is nothing in the section to do with its ostensible purport. The article already says she was very well known and specifies the nature of the publicity as a result of the court case being sexual in nature. The section eliminates the specifics of the sexual nature of what was said about her and says she was a big personalty " an Italian television poll listed Knox as a bigger personality than Carla Bruni.[73] Barbara Walters named her as one of the ten most fascinating people of 2011". And this is after it has been mentioned that her family hired a PR firm. So the section is actually in counterpoint to the pre-trial publicity section, which made clear the reality of how she was portrayed consisted of widespread publicity about "unsubstantiated details of Knox's sex life".


 * Now a piece of gossip about money from a book deal states in Wikipedia's voice "Knox signed a book deal worth US$4 million. The source actually just says "The deal is reportedly worth $4m". Such gossip about financial details, given the context, and without mention that her book advance may barely defray the legal and other fees incurred in her defense, is negative. This section is intrusive and misleading about the living subject's personal life and finances, and is functioning as a  WP:COATRACK.Overagainst (talk) 19:02, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 * A book deal is a notable event, as you can see by the many sources that reported it. I have added reported in the press to be worth 4 million in an attempt to alleviate your concern in regards to the book deal detail. Mosfetfaser (talk) 21:10, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Any author gets an advance, so it is no more notable that she did than that, according to her (on September 15, 2013)" Of the $3.8 million received, I carefully dispersed it where it was due: to taxes, to my lawyers, to my family so they no longer had mortgages at stake. Part of it went in fees to my agent, part of it in fees to my collaborator. At this moment, I am negotiating the last of it with my lawyers in Italy for the latest legal fees. [...]If not for the book deal, I could have been facing a lifetime of financial burden of having to pay for a defense that could still stretch for years more. After a year, I do not know what I’m going to do. So at this very moment, I have planned and negotiated and made possible, with everything I can manage, for a year. After that I’m reliant on my parents again". You want to include how much she got but not that it's gone and she still has to appeal to the supreme court, and pay fees for the lawyers who represent her at yet another trial. So Wikipedia is your newspaper for publishing partial information about the ongoing lives of people famous for one event is it? Enough._Overagainst (talk) 21:52, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 * She signed a book deal, reported notable event, simple, as for what she did with the monies, if you think the details of that are notable and have been reported then feel free to add them. Mosfetfaser (talk) 22:00, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It was reported, that makes it news, but not notable. If she'd came out a million ahead, or there was any reason to think that (like her buying houses and cars) maybe it would be notable. But back in reality Wikipedia is not a newspaper, and she is broke so there is no notability. Even if you disagree with that, you can't add one side of the story and then play the innocent about the impression that you're creating that she is millions up on this thing. It's on you to make your edits  notable enough to be in an encyclopedic article, in summary style, and  NPOV ._Overagainst (talk) 22:24, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The fact was widely reported in reliable sources, a book deal for millions of dollars is notable, whether she is ahead or not is irrelevant to the basic notability of the book deal, if it is notable that she is behind then feel free add the content Mosfetfaser (talk) 22:31, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Mosfetfaser is right about this. Overagainst I find your way to handle discussions to be beneath you to be honest. It is very strange witnessing a user basically saying "You are wrong and you do not even have the right to have an opinion about this article because you see it as your own newspaper". Regards,--BabbaQ (talk) 22:39, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Secondly I really do not have an interest in being part of this discussions further as I can see that some huge egos are at play. Remove it for all I care if that makes you Overagainst sleep better tonight. Or if for anything stopping you from a heartattack :) These discussions are perhaps at some users level but is simply not my cup of tea :)--BabbaQ (talk) 22:43, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

There's a very good argument for there not being an article on Amanda Knox, since it serve mainly to duplicate the "Murder" article. But we have one, and the only conceivable justification for it is that it can include information about Knox that is too trivial/tangential to include in the main article. It doesn't, therefore, make sense to sense to talk about structuring the article so that trivial/tangential information is excluded. There's certainly no BLP violation here. Formerip (talk) 23:31, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Pardon my ignorance, but does that mean adding trivial information to BLP's is NOT a violation of WP:Notability or WP:Undue? Jodon |  Talk  13:21, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It can be a violation of UNDUE, all depending, but something being trivial is not in itself a violation of BLP. Formerip (talk) 13:44, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clarifying. That explains the contention here regarding inclusion/deletion. Either BLP is an exception to the rules Wikipedia itself has laid down (triviality allowed specifically on BLP articles only), or it contradicts itself (triviality is not allowed, but lets break the rule anyway). How does Wikipedia gauge levels of triviality or is this at the discretion of each individual editor to make his/her case? If its the latter this again would explain the contention. But it does mean such entries would be disputed ad infinitum. Jodon |  Talk  13:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Opinion seems to be section stays, trivia out on grounds WP:Undue, and balance mention of  $3.8 mil advance with brief summary of what she said about it having gone to pay back debts incurred for her defense.Overagainst (talk) 13:52, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Malcolm B. Frost
This BLP was created by, and they seem to admit they have a COI.

I told Afrosty that, per WP:COS, You should not create or edit articles about yourself, your family or friends.

An administrator told Afrosty to continue editing it. I questioned that, but the admin is adamant - saying, "I am happy to let him edit the article directly". 

I am not sure how to resolve this issue, because it seems clear to me that the behavioural guideline says Afrosty should not edit the article, but Buckshot06 is disregarding it. I've already tried to resolve it on Buckshot06 talk page, but seem to have reached an impasse. Hence, asking for help here.

Thanks in anticipation, 88.104.19.233 (talk) 21:17, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thankyou 88.104.19.233 for your notification. My line has been to focus on what will be the end result: either an article which meets wikipedia's standards (I've got good experience of this, as I've created two FAs in my time) or an article which I will make sure is deleted. Afrosty is happy to let me mentor him to improve this article, and because he has the specialist data to add to the article, including references, I'm happy to let him do so in order to gradually improve the article. If the article doesn't reach the standard, or if he become obstructive, then I'll nominate it for deletion myself. At present, that necessity seems vastly unlikely. I would respectfully request the community to let me manage this article's development for a while, and mentor Afrosty, in the interests of the long-term development of the encyclopedia. Driving Afrosty away, rather than mentor him in the hope that he will become a competent editor on wider issues, doesn't serve the purpose of increasing rather than decreasing our editor base. Thus I would like to invoke WP:IAR for a while, in the furtherance of this process. Should the community so wish, this article and new editor can always be further reviewed at any later date. Buckshot06 (talk) 05:25, 17 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I do not think that this is appropriate use of IAR, because in mentoring that user, you are teaching them that it is OK to breach guidelines.
 * Consensus has decided that it is a bad idea for COR editors to edit articles directly.
 * Instead, you could show them the correct, policy-based way to contribute.
 * You are applying IAR for a short-term case, but a) they might continue to edit this article for years - and an admin has said it is OK, and b) they and their friends, and anyone else seeing this discussion would see an admin saying it was OK for COI editors to edit BLPs.
 * I could write much more about this, but if debates get long, they tend to become boring and pointless.
 * Bottom line: consensus says, people with very close connections shouldn't edit BLPs. I see no reason why this one is 'special'. So please will you adhere to WP:BESTCOI, and instruct the user to not directly edit the article? 88.104.19.233 (talk) 04:22, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Sounds like you want to punish Afrosty as an example to others, to warn them not to create articles about their family. Wikipedia does not purposely punish editors. Instead, Wikipedia ideally guides such editors into constructive and collaborative pathways. We are not going to put Afrosty's head on a spike outside the city gate to show others that this kind of thing is not tolerated.
 * The guideline BESTCOI does not bar a COI editor from editing an involved BLP, as you state incorrectly. Rather, the guideline says "Avoid making controversial edits to articles related to your associations." Non-controversial edits are fine.
 * On the positive side, the cleanup work you have been doing to the biography is generally good. My only complaint is that an article improvement template asking for better references for one section might be better than a half dozen templates scattered throughout that section. Binksternet (talk) 06:19, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Bullshit!

WP:COS is absolutely clear.

I assume you can read the link, so I will not repeat it here.

Why are we not enforcing that behavioral guideline?

Even if you do not agree with that, surely you can't argue with consensus on COI - COI editing is strongly discouraged.

So why is this admin encouraging it? 88.104.19.233 (talk) 06:39, 19 February 2014 (UTC)


 * On second thoughts, you (and others) will probably not read it, so I'll quote;


 * You should not create or edit articles about yourself, your family or friends. You should also avoid writing about yourself or people you know in articles on other topics.


 * Going outside that is IAR, and I don't think it is an appropriate use of IAR.

Instructing a new user to break policy/guidelines on BLPs is not a good idea. 88.104.19.233 (talk) 07:31, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Liezl van Zyl
This person has been proven to be a false identity created by wiki user solarhyper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.97.92.130 (talk) 17:41, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, I have nominated it for deletion.  Taylor Trescott  - my talk + my edits 21:50, 18 February 2014 (UTC)


 * So the Sportspulse interview is a fake?--ukexpat (talk) 01:45, 19 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I am probably going to say that it is, or at least say some elements of it are fictional. There's no mention of this person on the internet outside of Wikipedia and that interview, and there are no sources which state she has competed at a game - the interview claims she has won dozens of awards and yet the rest of the internet is silent. Even if she is real, she is most likely non-notable.  Taylor Trescott  - my talk + my edits 01:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Having done some digging into the history of Swimming at the 2007 All-Africa Games and Swimming at the 2011 All-Africa Games, I am inclined to agree with you. I have undone some longstanding vandalism substituting her name for a couple of medal winners. Looks like Sportspulse was duped too.--ukexpat (talk) 02:39, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Fatemeh Shams
Fatemeh Shams is a contemporary prize-winning Iranian poet and literary scholar based in Oxford University. She was born in Khorasan, Mashhad in 1983 and completed her studies in the field of sociology and literature after winning the silver medal in national Olympiad of literature in 2000. As a censored voice in Iran, Fatemeh, published her first book of poetry in Berlin, Germany in 2013 under the title of "88". The book contains socially and politically avant-garde poems that are mostly written in exile and echo the sense of displacement and diaspora. Fatemeh won Jaleh Esfahani poetry prize for the best young Persian poet in 2012. Her work has received scholarly attention by some of the leading literary critics and translators such as Dr. Ahmad Karimi Hakkak and her poems have been translated and published in other languages including English and Italian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masoodnaderi (talk • contribs) 22:59, 18 February 2014 (UTC)


 * This noticeboard is for discussions concerning issues relating to living persons in existing Wikipedia articles only. If you wish to create an article on Fatemeh Shams, see Your first article and Articles for creation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:29, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Manuel Valls
Manuel Valls is Minister of the Interior for France. He has recently undertaken an effort to ban anti-Semitic performances by comedian Dieudonné M'bala M'bala. User:Blaue_Max has thus changed the sentence "Valls is often considered in France as a representative of the social-liberal wing of the French Socialist Party, sharing common orientations with Scandinavian-style Social Democracy and Blairism" to "Valls is often considered in France as a representative of the social-liberal wing of the French Socialist Party, sharing common orientations with the state of Israel" twice, and this is still in the article. He has also introduced his own negative opinions of Valls into the article, referencing YouTube videos that are primary sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.169.109.224 (talk) 09:14, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Arseniy Yatsenyuk
In recent edits, someone has added uncited text claiming a connection of Arseniy Yatsenyuk to Scientology. As the claimed reference amounts to "some guy in Russia said this" in a BLP article, the text should go pending any better cites. Since a blogger quoted this text the day it was added, I'm inclined to think it was the blogger himself who made the edit. As I am broadly blocked from editing any Scientology-related articles (even bogus connections), I'm bringing it here rather than removing myself. AndroidCat (talk) 16:53, 19 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I just removed it.  The source doesn't seem to show up at all in Google, the name mentioned DOES, but in multiple places, so, no telling who the source is, no way was that reliable in any fashion.   I'll place a note on the talk page as well.  KoshVorlon . We are all Kosh  17:25, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you. AndroidCat (talk) 22:53, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Edoardo Costa
Edoardo Costa, both in English and Italian has a potentially libelous section referring to an ongoing legal issue that is poorly cited from questionable sources (tabloid and gossip sites). The English version of the section appears to have been translated with poor results by an online translator, rather than a native speaker. The sections are replaced once removed, even while citing BLP guidelines on both versions of the page. The claims made on the page are rather serious and defamatory. The issue can be seen here.

Sharon Needles


Controversy section is unverifiable, the sources do not link to any existing article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.129.220 (talk) 01:52, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I removed the section - the first reference was a dead link, and the second seems opinion at best, and off context after removing the first paragraph. I don't contest that the source on the second one is reliable, but it would have to be worded differently and doesn't really expand on the alleged use of racial epithets to justify a whole "controversy" section. § FreeRangeFrog croak 18:10, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Farshad Fotouhi
An editor seems to be on a vendetta against this person, using extremely insulting language on the talk page. I request fresh eyes on the article, and comments by someone willing to explain BLP policies. I had a previous disagreement with this editor, so perhaps I am not best for the job.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  03:44, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

William E. Lori
has been adding unreferenced and poorly-referenced BLP-violating material to William E. Lori. I am now at 3 reverts. Per WP:3RR, I am taking the report here for more eyeballs. Thanks in advance. Elizium23 (talk) 04:04, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Indiggo
Edit war between and. Indiggo77 is apparently the subject of Indiggo stated here. Indiggo77 is removing content, but providing sources. The anon is removing any additions by Indiggo77. Jim1138 (talk) 04:49, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

The "sources" Indiggo77 adds aren't legitimate. For example, they are saying they are American, and providing a youtube video that they made of photos of themselves. Also, User Indiggo77 is actually Mihaela and Gabriela Modorcea (collectively, Indiggo) which is not allowed on Wikipedia, right?

I'm not sure if I am supposed to reply here or on Jim1138's page. Thanks. 63.247.160.139 (talk) 04:58, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I've started a discussion over at WP:ANI regarding the confirmed shared COI account, as well as probable sock puppetry. Those issues can be discussed there, the article may be discussed here. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:04, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Salva Kiir
The section on the recent political crisis does not appear to be objective, since the question of whether there was a coup d'etat is contested by the two parties in the dispute. The article blames "one faction" in the crisis for "causing" the crisis by trying to overthrown Kiir. This is also contested. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.13.0.176 (talk) 09:01, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Is the problem the section entitled "Political crisis"? It seems reasonably impartial to me, but I've only a passing familiarity with South Sudanese politics.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 09:31, 20 February 2014 (UTC).

Ira Trevedi
The article is tagged as advertorial, rightly. Most of it was written by a WP:SPA whose image uploads indicate a connection with the subject. It contains many primary sources, a lot of which are basically press releases. However, the subject does seem to meet the notability guidelines, taking the content at face value.

I am uneasy about having a biography tagged as an advertisement and the article certainly falls well short of normal quality standards. If anyone has a special interest in Indian contemporary literature, maybe they could have a look? Guy (Help!) 09:55, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Reham Khan
This article has been vandalised repeatedly by specific users. It has been created recently with no verifiable sources clearly to use for numerous personal attacks on the person in question, Reham Khan. Extremely personal information such as the names, ages and location of relatives is regularly posted, of questionable accuracy but represents a huge invasion of privacy and threatens her personal safety. Other times, completely inaccurate and slanderous or libellous statements are made which have no sources. These are regularly made specific users, the most frequent of which is Somiya321. It should either be deleted since it is a stub or stopped from repeated vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnRoach12345 (talk • contribs) 12:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Jim Flaherty
removed a detailed statement about a medical condition which appeared unrelated to any biographical value. Another editor has demurred on the talk page saying it "looked fine" to him. Does medical stuff generally belong in BLPs? I had rather thought "minor medical stuff" was "right out." BTW, the claim was unsourced to boot. To me it looks more like "put anything remotely damaging into a BLP of a politician." Collect (talk) 14:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * If there's no source, then of course it should come/stay out. But I see no value in a general prohibition; FDR comes to mind.  If it's discussed extensively in sources and is therefore considered relevant to one's notability, then fine. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:26, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Um FDR? Might you show me any contemporary discussion of his paralysis?  Cheers.   And being paralyzed is a teeny bit different from taking medicine for a skin condition, I suspect. Collect (talk) 15:38, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Reagan's Alzheimer's, then. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:31, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * (ec) Weeeell, the FDR example is a bit off the point because the press' sensibilities about what the public 'needed to know' were also a teeny bit different seventy years ago. Heck, the active collusion of all of the media to cover up FDR's condition is used today as a canonical example of how reporting has changed in the intervening decades.  (Whether or not today's politicians-live-in-a-fishbowl attitude is better or worse is left as a homework exercise.)  Compare and contrast the openness of coverage associated with, to take a current Canadian example, Sam Sullivan: former mayor of Vancouver, and current member of the provincial legislature.  The level of attention and coverage lent to his quadriplegia stands in stark contrast to the treatment of FDR.
 * That said, I do have trouble seeing how one satisfies the WP:WEIGHT concern in this case&mdash;while rare, the condition in question appears to be a relatively minor and manageable. No sources have been presented to indicate any appreciable effect on his political career, or any very significant effect on his personal life; absent high-quality sources (based on firm information rather than pundits' speculation) inclusion seems unwarranted.  TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:40, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Edit request: Kevin Ranker
The office of has emailed OTRS and we've given them the standard advice; they are playing straight and have made some requests on the talk page, but the article's not on a lot of watchlists so they have not been reviewed yet.

I know several folks here are keenly interested in US politics, so could I ask one of you to review the talk page and merge in anything that looks to be appropriate. Thanks Guy (Help!) 17:56, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Tim Blixseth
This article needs some neutral eyes. My past efforts to clean it up have been futile as two editors who started editing the article within a few days of each other have been dominating the article since 2011. -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 19:16, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Leslie Cornfeld
An article about Leslie Cornfeld existed from 2006 through 2013. A little over a month ago the user who moved the page to a draft created a discussion here on the noticeboard to which I replied with a list of third party references for potential use on the draft or eventual article. I also reached out several times to the editor who moved the page to a draft with the references, but received no response.

I work for Rubenstein Communications and on behalf of Leslie Cornfeld ask that some volunteers consider incorporating the following third party sources to the draft and moving it back to an article page. To mitigate conflict of interest issues, I would like to refrain from editing the draft directly unless specifically invited to do so.


 * Career:


 * Bloomberg's Interagency Task Force, where Cornfeld was Chair:
 * Cornfeld is quoted in this Washington Post editorial from September 2013:
 * Cornfeld spoke at Advertising Week social media week 2012:
 * Cornfeld is speaking at National Mentoring Summit on January 30, 2014:
 * Cornfeld is quoted in this article about New York City schools:
 * Cornfeld’s feature in PBS/WNET:
 * Cornfeld mentioned in New York Times as Deputy Chief Counsel of the New York City Commission, 1993:
 * Cornfeld once again mentioned in New York Times as Deputy Chief Counsel of the New York City Commission, 1993:
 * Cornfeld quoted in New York Times as Deputy Chief Counsel of the New York City Commission, 1994:
 * Cornfeld quoted in New York Daily News as an attorney, 1997:
 * Cornfeld quoted in New York Times as assistant United States attorney in Brooklyn, 1999:
 * Cornfeld was a speaker at the first annual "Building a Grad Nation Summit," 2011:
 * Cornfeld speaking on "Social and Educational Equity:Three Exciting New Campaigns" panel at The John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University (video), 2012:
 * Cornfeld speaking on The Mayor's Interagency Task Force on American Graduate Day (video), 2012:


 * Board memberships:


 * Children Defense Fund:
 * Hospital for Special Surgery:
 * Advisory Board at Massachusetts General Hospital Center for Law, Brain and Behavior:  — Preceding unsigned comment added by NinaSpezz (talk • contribs) 20:42, 14 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Typically, an article is created by adding notable info, then sourcing it to something. References shouldn't exist apart from a fact they back up. Then it starts to look more like a scrapbook or link directory, not an encyclopedia. Is there particular info you'd like in the article? InedibleHulk (talk) 23:45, 14 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The whole "Articles and Reports" section of the draft is rather hollow, without any context for why these news stories matter to the subject. Try paraphrasing and summarizing the most important parts from each. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:49, 14 February 2014 (UTC)


 * First, my apologies to user for being slow to respond to her messages to me, so that she has had to come here, as it were, unescorted.


 * Background: an article about Leslie Cornfeld existed in a fairly basic form from 2006 until the beginning of December 2013, when an SPA account and several SPA IPs began to expand it considerably, giving it a promotional tone and making it increasingly like a résumé. Eventually that drew attention, it was nominated for deletion, and I closed a thinly-attended WP:Articles for deletion/Leslie Cornfeld as delete. The subject of the article posted on my talk page a request to restore it. I replied on User talk:SHurowtiz explaining the background, said that I was not prepared to reverse my close of the AfD, that she should go to Deletion review, and would stand a better chance there with an improved article. I therefore restored the article to the Draft namespace at Draft:Leslie Cornfeld, reverted it to the last version before the COI expansion, and advised her not to edit it directly, but to list on the article talk page any inaccuracies and any suggestions for additions.


 * , acting for Ms Cornfeld with an openly-declared COI, has now provided a number of references, which I have listed at Draft talk:Leslie Cornfeld. The great majority of them are quotes from Ms Cornfeld, reports of her speaking, or brief mentions of her being involved in some activity, and help with verification of her career but not with notability; but nos. 1 and 15 are more substantial, and I think an acceptable article could be made.


 * Being administratively involved, I do not want to rewrite this article myself, and I would be grateful if someone experienced could update it. More detail can be found in the versions in the history before my revert. I might then reverse my AfD close, but would more likely take it to DRV for a community view. JohnCD (talk) 16:22, 17 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I have updated the talk page of the draft with a first stab of a rewritten article. Please review and edit as you see fit. NinaSpezz (talk) 21:20, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Samantha Mathis


Samantha Mathis' own Facebook page says her birthday is Feb. 20, 1960. Your article on her says her birthday is May 20, 1960. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.243.183.157 (talk) 12:47, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually the article says May 12. I guess it's sourced to her IMDb profile, which is not ideal but it's all we have. I searched for but didn't find a Facebook page, not that we'd trust it more than we do IMDb to begin with. If you have a reliable source for the DOB, we'll take it. I didn't find anything other than a short TV Guide bio with the same date. § FreeRangeFrog croak 18:03, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The article says May 12, 1970 (not May 20, 1960). Helen  Online  19:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Gary Null
The current Wikipedia page on Gary Null does not reflect a neutral point of view (NPOV). The content is overwhelmingly negative and much of the more disparaging commentary is derived/referenced from a highly prejudicial source: "A Critical Look at Gary Null's Activities and Credentials". Essentially, the link is an attack page from Quackwatch, authored by an individual, Stephen Barrett, who states that he "has been tracking Gary Null's activities since the mid-1970s". Moreover, Mr. Barrett's article clearly indicates that Mr. Null's attorney has repeatedly advised him to "remove the offensive and libelous material from your website or face legal action."

Earlier today, I made edits to Gary Null's Wikipedia page and introduced biographical content from his Faculty Biography page at Fairleigh Dickinson University with the intent of providing a more rounded perspective on the subject. I also included content that expanded on and clarified Mr. Barrett's involvement in the matter. All of those particular edits were quickly undone. I am relatively new to editing at Wikipedia and would appreciate further guidance in this regard.

Jpsanders (talk) 06:25, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The independent secondary sources clearly shows that the primary source is inadequate. You attempted to spin the article, including aids denialism, into a positive light, despite secondary sources strongly disagreeing. That is against policy. Second Quantization (talk) 09:12, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Reply to comment by Second Quantization: one cannot tell what,"independent secondary sources" and "primary source" you are referring to? Nor what "article" you are referring to. If it is the TIME magazine article on Null, on the subject of AIDS, it describes Null's position thusly in one sentence: "Null takes a similarly radical approach to AIDS, raising a long-discredited argument that one of the reasons traditional therapies are ineffective is that it has never been proved that HIV plays as great a role in the disease as scientists believe". If you saying that TIME magazine is espousing "aids denialism", please take it up with the Wikipedia editor who originally added the reference from TIME. If you are referring to Stephen Barrett's Quackwatch article about Gary Null, please be advised that Barrett's intense criticism of Null does not include an allegation of AIDS denialism. Barrett makes a single mention of AIDS in regard to Null's writing: "Other articles in the series promoted chiropractic and homeopathy and claimed that effective nutritional methods for treating AIDS were being suppressed...". Again, if you believe Barrett is downplaying aids denialism, please take it up with the Wikipedia editor who originally added the reference. Jpsanders (talk) 11:23, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Depending on the nature of Null's work at FDU (namely, whether his "Research Fellow" position is honourary or not), it seems reasonable to mention that he's on staff there. But the rest of that bio is hagiographic in nature, and I don't think it's independent enough to source other details on Null from.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 09:29, 20 February 2014 (UTC).


 * The reason the article is overwhelmingly negative is because Null is generally considered a crank and a charlatan. His "book", Death By Medicine, is an extended attack on the medical community and a tissue of lies form beginning to end. According to Null, if you're hit by a truck and die on the operating table, the doctors killed you. He's also an assiduous self-promoter. Guy (Help!) 09:57, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * WP:FRINGE is applying here in spades. It is unhelpful when people who're subject to largely negative WP:MAINSTREAM of their views are subject to the "you can't say that because of WP:BLP" treatment simply because Wikipedia's restatement of the mainstream position is considered an "attack page".  Such editors either lack knowledge of the subject and massively misunderstand the subtleties both in the subject matter and WP:BLP because they're basically not competent, or they're fans of the subject or his work (and as a result may be knowledgeable about the subject but inevitably have a misunderstanding of the issues because they're not starting from a WP:MAINSTREAM point of view) and want to WP:POVPUSH on the article.  Barney the barney barney (talk) 00:23, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Ta-Nehisi Coates
Should this article contain a sentence highlighting this person's underage arrest record? The issue here is one of WP:UNDUE. The "personal life" section is only seven sentences long, including the sentence at issue. I'm also concerned that editor adding this material is an WP:SPA, as he has edited no other articles, refuses to discuss on talk or adhere to WP:BRD, and originally inserted the material with the edit summary "added info about his criminal past". Gamaliel ( talk ) 20:40, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Definitely a tendentious edit. I think it might belong *if put in the context of what Coates wrote about the experience* rather than as a throwaway "he's a criminal" line. But it should be removed until properly rewritten. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I am the editor referenced above. This user did not post in the talk page or reply to my explanations; they just kept reverting.  The sentence is relevant due to the subject's focus on issues of blacks and crime, and his own discussion of the incident in question, and my description of the addition is very neutral and straightforward.  Also, if the section is very short, then adding to it seems like a good thing and not bad.  I am a first-time, infrequent user of Wikipedia; that does not make me a WP:SPA.  I have repeatedly explained my minor edit; this user refuses to explain theirs and violated WP:BRD by simply deleting my edit rather than try to improve it or discuss it.  I have looked at this editor's previous disputes with users.  I believe it is inappropriate to ignore WP rules, then go here and try to accuse me of violating WP policies.  Try talking it out on the Coates Talk page.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Useitorloseit (talk • contribs) 21:31, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No, you have WP:BRD all wrong. You boldly added the information, were reverted by Gamaliel and now have a responsibility to discuss your proposed addition and gain consensus for it. Furthermore, you have violated the three-revert rule in attempting to edit-war the material into the article despite the objections of two different editors. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:37, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No, Gamaliel had it wrong by failing to discuss my edit first. Reverting is supposed to be a last-option.  Please re-read WP:BRD.  Gamaliel also failed to explain his reverts other than "disagree". The only one startign an edit-war is the other users; i am trying to either edit the article or discuss it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Useitorloseit (talk • contribs) 22:06, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The user in question has now reverted five times, and has been reported on the 3-revert rule noticeboard. There is no question that this involves tendentious editing on a BLP, which is prohibited by policy. I call on User:Useitorloseit once again to cease edit-warring and to discuss their proposed edit, which has been rejected by two separate editors. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:34, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * There certainly is a question about its tendentiousness; i question it. This user simply announces his opinion as fact and tried to use WP policy to justify it.  You should leave my edit in place and discuss it on the talk page; anything else and you are continuing to violate WP rules about reverting as a last option.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Useitorloseit (talk • contribs) 23:39, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * That's not how it works. With BLPs we have to exercise the utmost caution, and sometimes that means reverting edits that may potentially violate our BLP policies.  In this case that means your edit should remain out of the article until it is discussed on the talk page.  If editors agree that your edit does not violate BLP and is appropriate, then your edit can remain in the article.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 00:21, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I guess "potentially violates' is your word for "I don't like it and want it gone". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Useitorloseit (talk • contribs) 01:28, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Obviously, you are determined to have a productive discussion regarding this proposed edit. Gamaliel  ( talk ) 04:43, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't believe this was a good faith accusation. Discussion on the regular page's Talk page was never even attempted by this user.  If it had been, I would have (and still am) more than happy to address any concerns.  I was going to donate money to Wikipedia but thanks to a "top 700" editor I decided not to.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Useitorloseit (talk • contribs) 19:48, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * If Wikipedia's Top 700 editor, by applying the policies we have about living people, keeps the project safe from being sued, we are all better off. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  21:53, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * How many times have we seen versions of "I was going to donate money to Wikipedia but decided not to" as an "argument" in an NPOV or BLP discussion? Useitorloseit, that merely makes it harder to take your reasoning with the seriousness it perhaps deserves. BTW please read the message from SineBot on your page about signing your posts. Bishonen &#124; talk 14:14, 22 February 2014 (UTC).

Eliezer Yudkowsky
Hi! While this isn't exactly a report, I've noticed that this article appears to be somewhat controversial, and I'm interested in bringing it up to par. As it stands, the article is in a bad place: primary sources, blogs, and self-published sources abound. However, it is a vast improvement over the old version of the article. I bring this to the noticeboard for two reasons: first and foremost, the article is in need of desperate help, and I figured this was a good place to go. Second, the article has a long history of controversy dating back to over a decade ago. Many IP editors, single-purpose accounts, accounts with narrow editing patterns, and even Yudkowsky himself have edited the article, often advocating for the inclusion of contentious or poorly-sourced material. I bring this last fact not to the attention of the noticeboard because I'm worried that this will happen again (though it very well may, as there's been recent accusations of "anti-Yudkowsky forces" in the edit summaries! and yesterday there was a revert war), but rather because I think this is the perfect time to make both parties happy and improve the article. I encourage anyone and everyone who is interested to come help out, or even just leave a suggestion or two on the talk page.

Thanks for your time, Inanygivenhole (talk) 00:16, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Duncan Ferguson
I removed a lot of unsourced material from this article, which was undone by User:Yorkshiresky "Deleting a lot of relevant material - tag where appropriate". The page has been tagged with a BLP unsourced section since January 2011.

I think all of the material removed falls under "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.", as per WP:BLP and would like some feedback on clarifying the position instead of embarking on an edit war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DElliott (talk • contribs) 17:42, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You deleted several important aspects of Ferguson's career, including the first three years of his career at Dundee United, his call up to the Scotland squad, his record breaking transfer to Rangers and a good deal of his Everton career. I don't see anything particularly contentious in the material removed. Rather than wholesale excision of material put cite tags on those statements you find problematical or highlight these on the talk page. yorkshiresky (talk) 18:55, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * A not untypical article on a footballer - most of it unsourced - including his career with Newcastle and Everton. Needs referencing and if you remove the unreferenced it will be a very short article.--Egghead06 (talk) 19:05, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Challenging unreferenced material in this way is fully compliant with WP:BLP; re-adding the same unreferenced material is not. GiantSnowman 19:07, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I would allow little without a reference but as I was informed that wholesale removal of such would be disruptive editing suggest the key word here is 'contentious'. Just how contentious is the material here that is being removed? Take it out and entire periods of his career are missing. It that the way forward?--Egghead06 (talk) 19:15, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Material is considered "contentious" if it is likely to be challenged - which this material has been, by DElliott. There is nothing disruptive about removing such large chunks of unreferenced material from BLP articles, and anyone who tells you it is must be ignorant of how important BLP policy actually is. To quote Jimmy Wales - "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." I go one step further and say "This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of any information about living persons." GiantSnowman 19:35, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Gary Null 2
I recently read through this article, Gary Null because of a source dispute. The source dispute is one issue which could be fairly debated from both sides, but more importantly the article is almost entirely pejorative, an attack piece. If there are editors interested in BLPs who might like to look in, that would be a good thing probably. I won't be posting on the article myself and have no opinion on the subject of the article, just looking for BLP interested editors to add uninvolved scrutiny on what seems to be a heavily-weighted article. Thanks. (Littleolive oil (talk) 18:19, 21 February 2014 (UTC))


 * I've just see another post on this article above. Apologies for the repetition. It seems there is a generally agreed upon opinion about Null and that surprisingly this opinion is seen a legitimate basis for the article slant-hardly a base line for writing neutral articles in an encyclopedia, no matter how much the subject is despised. (Littleolive oil (talk) 22:51, 21 February 2014 (UTC))

Larry Bird
In the entry on Larry Bird The sentence "Due to chronic back problems and having a vagina, he retired as a player in 1992." The highlighted phrase appears to be false and a derogatory/mischievous remark. Thought best to bring it to Wikipedia's attention.
 * Petty vandalism, reverted. Thanks for the report. § FreeRangeFrog croak 21:16, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Nugent RFC
There is an RFC that may be of interest to this forum, of how to describe/qualify Nugent's comments about Obama calling him a "Subhuman mongrel" and Chimpanzee" Talk:Ted_Nugent Gaijin42 (talk) 21:48, 21 February 2014 (UTC)


 * For clarity, you actually mean 'how to describe/qualify Nugent's comments calling Obama a "Subhuman mongrel" and "Chimpanzee"'. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 09:10, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Alex McLeish


Hello, in this article, 2 users insist on adding material that states that fans have taken to calling him by an offensive nickname. They cite fan forums as a source, which I understand are not reliable, therefore not allowed, especially for something like this. I keep undoing these adds, but the IPs keep re-insterting this material. What can be done about this? Or am I off-base here? Advice and assistance appreciated! Electric Wombat (talk) 00:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
 * By the way, I've stopped undoing them until a ruling on this is made. In my research, I've just noticed that 3 "reverts" is punishable, which I've exceeded here. My apologies if I've broken a rule, I will cease action on this article pending the outcome here. Regards, Electric Wombat (talk) 00:54, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No, you did right. Those are clearly not reliable sources, not to mention there's a clear undue weight issue and some kind of agenda by the IP. § FreeRangeFrog croak 01:17, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with FrF. Watchlisted. Two kinds of pork (talk) 03:38, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

John Mutton (Canadian politician)
There seems to be sourced and accurate material that was posted to this page which was then deleted by the original creator more than once. As the page suggests, this falls into the Conflict of Interest violation criteria, as the creator is a person close to or is the subject. The information should be re-posted permanently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.130.245.242 (talk) 12:35, 22 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The lack of a conviction for allegations of what would presumably be a minor assault, means the material might be better left out of the article altogether, and certainly not maintained in the lengthy and detailed blow-by-blow nature that some are edit-warring to keep it there. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 13:18, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Meryl Davis
Under personal life, the last sentence states "she can play the skin flute," which is slang for a penis and obviously offensive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.160.239.225 (talk • contribs)


 * Thank you for letting us know. This offensive vandalism has been fixed by User:Mosfetfaser. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 13:14, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Chris DeStefano
So on January 25, 2014, blanked Chris DeStefano. A month later, put the article up for Prod because "Chris Destefano requested that this page be completely removed", and I quickly deprodded it. On Sethjohnson1987's talk page, he wrote that "I work for his music publisher (SonyATV/EMI) and he emailed me asking for it to be taken down. Though he might change his mind and have us update it for him." What should be done here? Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:15, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I find your message of 20:13 to be quite correct. The article looks fine and the subject wishing to delete it is not a criterion for speedy deletion. --John (talk) 20:59, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Jim Murray (musician)
Please help in editing this article. Jim Murray passed away on March 1, 2013. THX https://www.mauinews.com/page/content.detail/id/570610/James-Rigney-Murray--70.html?nav=13 — Preceding unsigned comment added by DixieDear (talk • contribs) 02:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Yuri Maltsev
The article is caught up in the Austrian Economics farrago; as a result, a biographical article is tagged as unreliable and of questionable notability. I don't see much evidence of reliable third party sourcing in the history, but I am completely unsympathetic to the subject (a libertarian and apparently an advisor to the Heartland Institute, who I consider to be a plague on society) so I am not the right person to review this. Could someone please review the article, and either source it and remove the tags, or start the ball rolling on getting it nuked. Thanks. Guy (Help!) 14:51, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:Articles for deletion/Yuri Maltsev. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:36, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Tor (anonymity network)
Recently information was edited into Tor (anonymity network), and then substantially changed. It is reportedly statements by two named individuals responding to questions about their alleged actions (with no factual basis, I might add) that, if true, would be an immense scandal and ruin their reputations. I'm in the process of discussing this with experienced editors. It appears likely that once reliability is sorted out, I will discuss the topic here. Poorly sourced information that could damage people's reputations should be removed until a consensus is reached. The information is poorly sourced because it has been cited and wikilinked to The Washington Post newspaper when in fact it was on their WP:NEWSBLOG entitled The Switch and published by that organization. The page has since been placed under Semi-protection and Pending changes protection to prevent my repeated attempts to remove the material pending consensus. Could someone please remove the material for the time being? 92.78.115.171 (talk) 13:46, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The RSN discussion is here: Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. -- Neil N  talk to me  14:00, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Also see lengthy talk page thread. --&mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  |  14:12, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I recommend that this discussion be closed as not within the scope of this noticeboard.
 * The statements
 * "One of the founders of the project, Roger Dingledine, stated that the DoD funds are less similar to being a procurement contract and are more similar to a research grant."
 * and
 * "Andrew Lewman, the executive director of the Tor project, stated that even though it accepts funds from the US federal government, the Tor service did not collaborate with the NSA to reveal identities of users."
 * are not by the wildest stretch of the imagination statements that are "an immense scandal" or that would "ruin their reputations." The IP-hopping user, having been blocked from edit warring on the page, is WP:FORUMSHOPPING, having the misguided opinion that "BLP" is a magic word that allows you to have your way in any content dispute. By my count five editors, two of them administrators, have rejected the claims of a BLP violation, and zero editors has supported the IP-hopping user on this.
 * Whether reliable sources confirm those individuals actually said that is a legitimate question, and belongs on the reliable sources noticeboard, where it is already being discussed. . There is no BLP violation here and thus nothing for this noticeboard to address. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:26, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I am not forum shopping. I did not even bring the matter before the reliable sources notice board. What I brought up is outside the scope of reliable sourcing. There are multiple issues affecting the inclusion of the material. I have maintained from the very beginning of the discussion that the primary issue was bringing the integrity of two people into question without a factual basis for doing so. All I'm requesting is a temporary removal of the contentious content while we discuss it. Since the RS issue is already underway, once we reach a consensus about the quality of the source, I'll then look for consensus here about using a source of that quality on Wikipedia to implicate people.
 * This material has been erroneously cited and hyperlinked to The Washington Post newspaper, when in fact it is the publisher of the source, which is The Switch. The web citation documentation states:
 * Name of publisher; may be wikilinked if relevant. The publisher is the company that publishes the work being cited. Do not use the publisher parameter for the name of a work (e.g., a book, encyclopedia, newspaper, magazine, journal, website). Not normally used for periodicals. Corporate designations such as "Ltd", "Inc" or "GmbH" are not usually included. Omit where the publisher's name is substantially the same as the name of the work (for example, The New York Times Co. publishes The New York Times newspaper, so there is no reason to name the publisher).
 * It's important that it not be wikilinked to the newspaper, as this material did not appear in it. The relevant Wikipedia article is Graham Holdings Company, but it's probably not relevant enough to wikilink. I fear that some other "reliable source" will say something to the effect of, "Even Wikipedia editors pointed to a Washington Post article which said, insert egregiously out of context misquote here."
 * Guy Macon, as for your often repeated efforts to talk about "what happened", again, your facts are distorted. I would appreciate it if you let me give my own opinions rather than reading your interpretation of them. (Oh the irony, considering the content in question.) Only you and another editor have contested the BLP issue. 94.222.99.19 (talk) 10:17, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * And yes, if it were true these two would not even be able to continue their work, which would affect millions of people. I would go into detail except I read the statement at the top of this noticeboard instructing us not to post the details here. 94.222.99.19 (talk) 10:24, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Your claims of a BLP violation have been evaluated and rejected by multiple editors and administrators, and you have yet to convince a single editor to support you. We are not going to remove the material, even temporarily, based on imaginary BLP issues. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:34, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * For the third time in a row, it is sourced to The Washington Post newspaper when it actually appeared on The Switch blog on their website, making it poorly sourced. It brings the opinion of the author concerning whether or not the two named people engaged in scandalous activity into the article. From WP:BLP, "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. I can understand disagreeing with the merit of the dispute, and to a smaller degree not wanting to wait to get the juicy tidbit out in the open quickly without waiting for a real consesus, but not even wanting to repair the citation (You can fix the red link while you're at it.) is what I find most astonishing. As to your claim of a multitude of rejections, show me . 94.222.99.19 (talk) 13:51, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * For goodness sake, please show me on Talk:Tor_(anonymity_network) and not here. 94.222.99.19 (talk) 14:20, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

The citation now reads as:  Fung, Brian. "The feds pay for 60 percent of Tor’s development. Can users trust it?" Washington Post's The Switch.  So end of BLP issue? --&mdash;  Rhododendrites <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk  |  15:42, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll repeat it:
 * Name of publisher; may be wikilinked if relevant. The publisher is the company that publishes the work being cited. Do not use the publisher parameter for the name of a work (e.g., a book, encyclopedia, newspaper, magazine, journal, website). Not normally used for periodicals. Corporate designations such as "Ltd", "Inc" or "GmbH" are not usually included. Omit where the publisher's name is substantially the same as the name of the work (for example, The New York Times Co. publishes The New York Times newspaper, so there is no reason to name the publisher).
 * This work is not called "Washington Post's The Switch". It says not to use the publishing company for the name of the work. Do you think it's important that it be in there somehow? Its misleading because The Washington Post is a newspaper and even that wikilink leads to an article about the newspaper. I don't see a reason to wikilink the publishing company in this case, but the link is Graham Holdings Company. My current recommendation is:
 * If you want to wikilink the publisher, then I recommend:
 * Please note WP:NEWSBLOG which states "...use them with caution because the blog may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process." Caution, at a bare minimum, includes trying to get the citation right, and frankly I don't see why I'm getting so much pushback on this one simple thing. Do you have a more relevant citation template? I'll leave the appropriateness of removing the material while we determine its usability up to the experts here. The other BLP issue is about whether or not we should use the material at all, which of course won't be fixed by merely citing it correctly. I want to reach a consensus at WP:RSNB, where you brought up the issue, on the overall quality of this source and then bring that, along with the rest of my argument, here. Is that reasonable? I'll be away from the net for a couple of days. 94.222.99.19 (talk) 16:35, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I do have a question before I disappear for a while, how do we discuss the issues without posting what was said here, or am I doing it wrong? 94.222.99.19 (talk) 19:47, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You are talking about RELIABLE SOURCES on the BIOGRAPHIES OF LIVING PERSONS noticeboard. The reliable sources noticeboard is for ... wait for it ... discussing the reliability of sources. The biographies of living persons noticeboard is for ... wait for it ... wait for it ... discussing violations of Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy (which, I remind you, does not exist in this case other than in your fevered imagination).
 * The fact that you appear to be unable to understand this basic concept is either a WP:COMPETENCE problem or an WP:IDHT problem. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:44, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * What I'm trying to discuss are allegations about people written into a Wikipedia article. In this case, it takes the form of rephrasing a quote to insert the allegation. If the allegation is that Joe eats bananas, it can be expressed, for example, as a:
 * statement: Joe eats bananas.
 * loaded question: Does Joe still eat bananas?
 * straight question: Does Joe eat bananas?
 * insinuation: I can't prove that Joe eats bananas.
 * denial: Joe said he doesn't eat bananas.
 * dodge: Joe said he may or may not eat bananas.
 * This source says that there is no proof of the allegation. Allegations without evidence are rumor or speculation and should not be written into a Wikipedia article about named individuals in any form whatsoever. Either find reliable sources backing up the claim or leave it out of the article. Note that this reasoning is independent of the reliability of the source. The material been interpreted on Wikipedia as being both a flat denial and an evasive answer. 89.101.247.110 (talk) 11:15, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * What part of
 * "The reliable sources noticeboard is for discussing the reliability of sources. The biographies of living persons noticeboard is for discussing violations of Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy (which do not exist in this case)."
 * are you having trouble understanding? --Guy Macon (talk) 22:46, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:BLP, very first infobox sentence, "If you are concerned about the accuracy or appropriateness of biographical material on Wikipedia, report problems at the biographies of living persons noticeboard." Lead section, "Such material...must adhere strictly to...Verifiability (V). From WP:V, section 1 WP:CHALLENGE (not section 2 about reliable sources), "Cite the source clearly and precisely (specifying page, section, or such divisions as may be appropriate)." I think it's misleading not to differentiate the WP:NEWSBLOG] entitled The Switch as a separate division from the print edition of [[The Washington Post, just like sourcing The New York Times Magazine as The New York Times would be. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's a real question I have and not about reliability. It's been partially addressed by Rhododendrites.
 * Rereading what I wrote in support of my BLP claims not being "imaginary", I can see where you might be thinking that "This source says that there is no proof of the allegation" meant that I was questioning the reliability of the source. I wasn't. A perfectly reliable source can include in their argument, "So far there's no hard evidence that..." insert sensational claim here. Insert named individual here wrote insert denial of shocking behavior here. My question here is, if the source itself said that there isn't evidence to support the accusation, how can it be on Wikipedia in any form without another reliable source that has some evidence? If would be a major news story if evidence of those activities became public, and finding sources wouldn't be a problem. It certainly isn't the prevailing view now, and if this became a widely-believed rumor it would damage the ability of the named people to carry out their life's work. 89.101.247.110 (talk) 11:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Your claims of a BLP violation have been evaluated and rejected by multiple editors and administrators, and you have yet to convince a single editor to support you. You keep ignoring this important fact, and thus I am going to ignore any further comments from you; you are simply repeating the same bad arguments that didn't convince anyone the last five or six times you made them. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:18, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Only three editors, two of which are you and I, have commented on the BLP issue. One administrator semi-protected the page giving the reason "persistent vandalism: and edit warring", leading me to think that the admin might not even know about it. Can you show me where anyone other than you, Rhododendrites, and myself have evaluated the BLP claims? And talk about repeating yourself, you've repeated your "multiple editors and administrators" distortion four times now, and whatever tiny number you're talking about doesn't amount to a consensus.
 * In any case, I really wasn't expecting dead silence from editors not already involved in the content dispute. Is it because I'm unable to provide details about it on this noticeboard? Is it important enough to talk about here? Have I overstated anything even slightly? Is it something else? Isn't anybody here able to answer my questions about this? 89.101.247.110 (talk) 09:54, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Only three editors, two of which are you and I, have commented on the BLP issue. One administrator semi-protected the page giving the reason "persistent vandalism: and edit warring", leading me to think that the admin might not even know about it. Can you show me where anyone other than you, Rhododendrites, and myself have evaluated the BLP claims? And talk about repeating yourself, you've repeated your "multiple editors and administrators" distortion four times now, and whatever tiny number you're talking about doesn't amount to a consensus.
 * In any case, I really wasn't expecting dead silence from editors not already involved in the content dispute. Is it because I'm unable to provide details about it on this noticeboard? Is it important enough to talk about here? Have I overstated anything even slightly? Is it something else? Isn't anybody here able to answer my questions about this? 89.101.247.110 (talk) 09:54, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Edit History:
 * WhisperToMe made an edit: Unless he indicates otherwise, WhisperToMe counts as someone who supports his own edit and opposes an edit that reverts his edit.
 * You reverted, claiming a BLP violation:  That's one editor opposing you, zero supporters.
 * I reverted you because I could not find the BLP violation: That's two editors opposing you, zero supporters.
 * You reverted, claiming a BLP violation:
 * Rhododendrites reverted you, could not find any BLP violation That's three editors opposing you, zero supporters.
 * You reverted without comment.
 * I reverted you with the comment "I read all of the comments on the talk page and on the reliable sources noticeboard and found no evidence of any BLP violation, nor can I find any in the deleted material. Restoring":
 * You reverted with a strange comment that nobody has been able to figure out:
 * Materialscientist reverted you. Note: Materialscientist is an admin. That's four editors opposing you, zero supporters.
 * You reverted, claiming a BLP violation: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tor_%28anonymity_network%29&diff=595121922&oldid=595121263]
 * I reverted you. (Note: No 3RR violation on either side because of 24-hour rule)
 * I requested page protection because of your edit warring:
 * Page protected, protection level chosen to stop you from editing while allowing everyone who reverted you to keep editing: Please note that, in any case where there is a claim of a BLP violation, the protecting admin is required by Wikipedia policy to evaluate the claim and remove any BLP violation before protecting the page. This was not done in this case, because the protecting admin saw no BLP violation.

So four editors have opposed you (yes, the correct number is four -- your count was incorrect), nobody has supported you, and you were blocked from editing the page because you attempted to get your way through edit warring. Despite repeated requests, you have made zero attempts to explain why you imagine that a BLP violation exists when nobody else sees one. It is still a mystery why you think that. BTW, nobody is bothering to respond to you because blocking you from editing he page solved the problem. I think we are done here. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:07, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Not the place for it, but I'll (probably stupidly) point out the distortion.
 * WhisperToMe - made the edit before I raised the BLP issue and has made no public evaluation or rejection of it. 0-0
 * Me - I strongly object to the material being included. 1-0
 * Guy Macon - Sees no problem, won't wait for BLP consensus. 1-1
 * Rhododendrites - Agrees that the material is okay, but seems willing to compromise. 1-2
 * Materialscientist - Reverted with the edit summary "What was that?" clearly in response to my poorly thought out edit summary. I explained in my next edit summary that there was a BLP dispute and Materialscientist has made no other reverts. Has made no pubic comment, and we have no idea what this admin has evaluated or rejected. My idiotic edit summary was because local phone service went out for about a day and I was trying to use the same argument structure as the writer of the source to show how terrible it is. It was dumb and a total fail. 1-2
 * Callenecc - Thanks for the tip on WP policy. I placed a note on that admin's talk page and have gotten no response after ten days. It's not clear to me that this admin has read my arguments after the fact, let alone evaluated or rejected them. 1-2
 * Anyway, all of this "what happened" or who won the straw poll nonsense is sidetracking the discussion here just like the original talk page discussion has been. The disussion on the reliable sources notice board has quieted down, and I'm fairly in agreement with one participating editor, while another has gone from a dissenting view to relative uncertainty. If I can't post details here, where should I present my arguments concerning the usability of the material on BLP grounds? This is a separate request from the one for temporary removal. Please advise; I've been straightforward and the material is quite harmful. 178.8.152.139 (talk) 22:40, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This is the proper place for dealing with BLP concerns, and of course I could be wrong and you could be right, in which case we definitely want to remove the material -- WP:BLP supersedes pretty much any other Wikipedia policy.


 * The way you should proceed is to explain, in detail, why you think there is a BLP violation. Seriously. You have done everything but trying to persuade others that you are right. I find this to be incredibly frustrating because I take alleged BLP issues seriously and I really do want you to prevail if there really is a BLP violation.


 * You are willing to edit war to the point of being blocked. You are willing to spend an inordinate amount of effort getting an exact count of the unanimous consensus against you. You seem perfectly willing to explain your reasoning concerning reliability of sources (on the RS noticeboard -- those arguments do not belong here). Despite all of this, for some inexplicable reason you are completely resistant to the idea of actually arguing your case when it comes to BLP violations. This has been explained to you before.


 * Go back, start over, start a new section, and this time try to convince someone-- anyone -- that the statements
 * "One of the founders of the project, Roger Dingledine, stated that the DoD funds are less similar to being a procurement contract and are more similar to a research grant."
 * and
 * "Andrew Lewman, the executive director of the Tor project, stated that even though it accepts funds from the US federal government, the Tor service did not collaborate with the NSA to reveal identities of users."
 * are, as you claim, "an immense scandal" and something that would "ruin their reputations." WHY do you think that? What is your reasoning? Do you have any theory as to why nobody but you sees any BLP violation? --Guy Macon (talk) 02:58, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Because at the top of this page is " Important: Do not copy and paste any defamatory or libelous information to this noticeboard. Link to a diff showing the dispute, but do not paste the information here. To get into the harm done would require me to repeat the baseless allegations here, and I thought it was self-evident. Apparently not, but I don't presume to know what silent people are thinking, and thus have no theory. I've repeatedly asked where I can present my reasoning without pasting here, which you've done twice now. 94.222.101.42 (talk) 09:43, 23 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I already pasted the passage that you were blocked for repeatedly removing. Good luck with your super-secret imaginary BLP violation that you and you alone can see and which you cannot explain or provide evidence to support. I am unlatching this page now as the colossal waste of time that it is. You can reply if you wish, but I will not see it. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:44, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
 * To anyone else, the material is WP:NOTSCANDAL, scandal mongering section, about named people. How is it not a BLP violation? Once again, how can I discuss this in detail and where? 94.222.101.42 (talk) 15:53, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Since the instruction was actually red colored, it seemed very important to follow it. I've asked several times here if that was the right way to go about it. No response. 94.222.101.42 (talk) 18:54, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Keith R. Kernspecht
I wanted to get some input on the notability of this figure before taking any action and I'm a bit rusty on my BLP standards. If anybody else would be so kind as to take a look and let me know their thoughts on his notability I'd be most obliged. Simonm223 (talk) 20:45, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * There's lots of stuff at Google Books about him. So, I'd say notable.  German Wikipedia might be helpful in fixing up our article.Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:49, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Ward Churchill


With regard to the External Links section of Churchill's article, does the section currently conform to the norms of what usually appears in the External Links section for a BLP? AzureCitizen (talk) 02:30, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Several are not especially pertinent per WP:EL. Blogs etc. have no place as "external links" Collect (talk) 03:07, 24 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Roger that, thanks for the extra sets of eyes that have now vetted the list. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:31, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Candace Hutson
Hello! This is Candace Hutson. My last name has since changed but Hutson is my maiden name, and was my professional acting name. My birthdate is incorrect on your site, My actual birthdate is May 3rd, 1980. I have submitted to IMDb a request for a correction for my birthdate. If you could please correct my birthdate on Wikipedia, it would really stop irritating my family, friends, and even my kids! I would appreciate it so much! Thank you for your time on this simple matter! Thanks again. Sincerely, Candace Hutson — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.139.234 (talk) 03:13, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi. At Wikipedia, self-published websites that are largely user-generated, including the Internet Movie Database (IMDB), are largely not acceptable for us as reliable sources, unless the material is labeled as originating from credentialed members of the sites' editorial staff, rather than users.   So, I think the best thing to do for now would be to leave your birthday information at Wikipedia blank, but it can be filled in by anyone who can provide a reliable source.  I hope that explanation wasn't too boring!  Cheers.  :-)Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:46, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Stephen Cooper
This notice is regarding this page:

Stephen Cooper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Cooper_(businessman)

The following article is repeatedly referenced in the "Personal Life" section, but it has no affiliation to Stephen Cooper, so I removed it again: http://www.bloomfield-cooper.com/dm20/en_US/group/business/bloomfieldcooper/index.page.

Please kindly let me know why this article is repeatedly re-posted and let me know if it can stay removed.
 * I think the primary reason why the previous edits were reverted was because apparently sourced information was repeatedly removed by an IP with no explaination. It always a good idea to leave an WP:edit summary explaining any changes you are making, particularly in a case like this where it's entirely unclear what you're doing and looks a lot like vandalism. (Opening a discussion in the article talk page as I see you've done also helps, but you seem to be the first to do it as the 3 previous IPs aren't there.) In this case, I've looked at the sources and there's nothing linking either to the particularly Stephen Cooper covered in the article so I support your removal and have followed up your edit with a new edit explaining the reason for removal. Nil Einne (talk) 16:15, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Olena Anatoliivna Bondarenko
(Relates to the current, that is the |21. of February 2014 edition of the article)

The article about member of Ukrainian parliament, Regional Party member Olena A. Bondarenko, does not meet Wikipedia standards. The article looks to have been amended/written by someone with very strong personal views about the conflict in the Ukraine. If anything, the article demonstrates how far away from each others the parties in the conflict are.

I opened a discussion of this, under the folowing subjects:

1 Very low standard article 1.1 Questionable and unverified information 1.2 Serioius, undocumented claims about Bondarenko and the police 1.3 Politicised, emotional language

I will hereby restate the problems with the article.

Without documentation, the article says

 * It claims that ”Bondarenko has been the topic of increased concern with regards to human rights in Ukraine”. This might be true, I don’t really know. However, I would expect the article to explain why, if first it makes that claim.
 * It uses the wording ”murdered by the police” wihtout pointing out that it has not been established whether they were (in legal terms) murdered and without pointing out that Bondarenko (according to the source given for the claim) does not accept they have been murdered.
 * It claims that ”Bondarenko was one of the parties suspected of contributing to the mass murder in Kiev which occurred February 20-21, 2014” without explaining how Bondarenko, as a member of parliament, can be responsible (”one of the parties”) for any such thing. Clarification: It is one thing to be a Member of Parliament and as such to defend the goverment and another thing to be responsible for acting out a policy, and hence one wonders in what, according to the article, Bondarenko can be ”one of the parties”.
 * Under the heading ”Pending Death Sentence”, the article claims that ”A new law proposed by Svyatoslav Piskun, former Prosecutor General of Ukraine, temporarily amends the constitution to qualify Bondarenko and other accused parties for execution if found guilty.[18]” withot giving any explanation about how this is relevant to Bondarenko. First, it is one thing to claim that a law has been proposed - there are many law propoisals. Second, even if the law were to exist, how is it relevant to Bondarenko? Where is the documentation that shows that this law affects, of would affect, Bondarenko?
 * The article uses the heading ”Pending Death Sentence”, but does not show any documentation that a death sentence is pending and also nothing that documents that a death sentence is likley. The claim appears taken out of the air, as an attempt to put Bonderenko in a very negative light. This one of the gravest and most malicious issues with the article as it stands.

The article uses emotional language to put Bondarenko in a negative light.
Documentation:


 * Article talks about ”the peaceful protests in Kiev”. However, Bondarenko does not agree, it seems, that the protests were (only) peaceful - and many would agree. The article should reflect the differing views of the protests. In the source given for the claim, Bondarenko suggest thining of the killings as accidental killings.
 * Article says that ”Bondarenko coldly responded”. However, the source given for that claim, does not say whether shew was cold or warn - if we can glean anything from the soure article, then it is that Bondarenko felt insulted by the questions she received from the journalists. Wikipedia does not know and cannot know whether a person is cold or warm.
 * Under the heading ”Pending Death Sentence” the article talks about ”the mass murder in Kiev”. A mass murder is usually a wording applied when a single person or a single party to a conflict kills on a mass scale - for example Breivik at the Utøya, Norway. However, in Kiev, we have reports that killings happened on both sides. We also have reports about a very tense situation, with violence from the protesting forces, both inside and outside Kiev. The article itself, points to a source which documetns that journalists asks Bondarenko about the killing of journalists. Why did the journalists ask Bondarenko? Because the case is not obvious. This is a case were Wikipedia must thread carefully and use neutral but accurate language.  For instance the english newspaper Mail Online puts the mass murder phrase in quotations. Putting phrases in quotation is the common way of showing that the newspaper is citing another source in order to emphasize that it is not their own claim.

William Thourlby
IMDB says this person passed away in April of last year. I have located an obit, but it is small and does not make mention of his acting career, so I'm wondering if that really is him. Thoughts?  Taylor Trescott  - my talk + my edits 21:16, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It certainly seems that way. This article mentions him, saying "William Thourlby, who died last year aged 89[..]." A findagrave page for William L. Thourlby exists. This article implies that he has died. "Thourlby survived long enough [..]". -- <font color="#FC3700">Auric  <font color="#0C0F00">talk  22:28, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Sergio Fabbrini
Please remove the article for the following reasons:

1) It is a CV and it is not relevant: there is no encyclopedic suitability of the subject; 2) The biography often refers to unverifiable (as well as uninteresting) contents ("married with...two sons..."), that may also violate the privacy of third parties. 2.235.43.146 (talk) February 2014 (UTC)
 * The issue is whether the CV-style article can or should be fixed instead of deleted. For example, the info about wife and children can easily be moved from the first sentence of the lead to a section about personal life, and I have done so.  The person seems to be somewhat notable, having written a ton of books and held influential positions in academe.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:50, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You can take this article to WP:AFD, but I'd bet good money on a "keep".Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:53, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

BLP and subject's work
Hi, WP:BLPKIND says Subjects sometimes become involved in editing material about themselves, either directly or through a representative. The Arbitration Committee has ruled in favor of showing leniency to BLP subjects who try to fix what they see as errors or unfair material. Editors should make every effort to act with kindness toward the subjects of biographical material when the subjects arrive to express concern. Although Wikipedia discourages people from writing about themselves, removal of unsourced or poorly sourced material is acceptable. I'm wondering how this applies to the work of the subject; that is, an article about their book, company or product. If the subject is upset about misrepresentation of their work, how does BLP/OTRS apply? Thanks Span (talk) 15:08, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Thought experiment: a shareholder of Altria is upset about the notion that tobacco products cause cancer.  Is this really going to become a BLP problem that would lead us to soft-pedal the idea that tobacco products cause cancer?  Another: Richard Easterlin is (for the sake of the example) upset about the way our article on him includes critique of his ideas by other economists; is this really something where we're going to accede to his wishes just because he expresses them here?  As for the general idea: if a subject is upset about "misrepresentation" of their work, surely the way we'd want to look at it is that they are upset at what they consider to be misrepresentation of their work.  The key point is that BLPKIND properly says that "removal of unsourced or poorly sourced material [presumably by the subject] is acceptable" -- and so what matters here is whether the material in question is properly sourced.  We don't need to give special consideration to the opinions of authors etc. as might be expressed in posts here (or via OTRS); what we need to do is to stick to the sources, and in my view we'll be in good shape.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:13, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * We do give 'special consideration' to their biographies though, well sourced or not. If they request certain elements are removed, then they are generally removed. So if, for example, Jane Goodall feels that her personal work as an anthropologist has been wildly misrepresented, or their is personal slander in it, wouldn't it back on to BLP? (NB Jane Goodall is a purely hypothetical example). Thanks Span (talk) 23:26, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Allegations of sex crimes while a trial is underway
I'm not sure of what to do about this. An Irish sports journalists is currently under trial for alleged sexual exploitation of a minor. The allegations include coercing a child to engage in the production of child pornography and inducing or coercing her to engage in a sexual, indecent or obscene act. A BBC report on the trial is here.

The article on the person accused of the crime makes mention of the allegation and that the trial has begun. As is common in many jurisdictions, a person accused of such crimes in Ireland are not ordinarily identified while the court case is underway. In part, at least, this is to protect the identity of alleged victims.

We are, of course, not censored and the Wikimedia Foundation is not subject to the laws of Ireland, I presume (not a lawyer!). However, I'm minded to remove mention of the criminal allegations until the trial has concluded as suggested by WP:BLP (see WP:BLPCRIME).

Any thoughts before I do so? --Tóraí (talk) 21:39, 25 February 2014 (UTC)


 * It would depend if the individual is "relatively unknown" according to extant policy. Simonm223 (talk) 21:45, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I was a bit perplexed by that. All BLPs must meet notability guidelines. I think the person is relative unknown. However, the person is known well-enough known that the initial allegation were reported by the press in Ireland. However, there is an additional RS problem in that the more recent RS (including some cited in the article) don't name the subject for legal reasons. So, I don't know. What is the threshold for being sufficiently known?
 * I'm inclined to look at WP:BLPNAME, although not explicitly relevant. Particularly, the reference to cases when the name of a person is intentionally concealing by a court. And especially considering that the wider context of the article and the subject will not be affected by removing the reference.
 * OK, actually, after writing this out, I've decided it's better to remove it. Does that make sense? --Tóraí (talk) 22:21, 25 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Safest course is to wait until the end of the trial - Wikipedia has no "deadline" and it is better to be careful and slower than the newspapers, than to violate prudent policies. Collect (talk) 22:19, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * OK. Thanks, --Tóraí (talk) 22:21, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

David Samson (New Jersey)


I have been adding material about to the controversies related to David Samson (New Jersey) a living person, and want to make sure that the material is appropriate. All the material added is supported by reputable sources. As there are no other editors participating in editing that article I'd appreciate some fresh eyes and feedback. Cwobeel (talk) 04:30, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Yulia Tymoshenko
A lot of work needed to get this biography of the Ukrainian politician up to scratch. Many (most?) of the sources don't seem to be adequate for a BLP. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:44, 23 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Itsmejudith, you might cross-post your request at WikiProject Ukraine. The talk page doesn't seem very active (which is surprising) but it's more likely that you will encounter editors there who are familiar with Yulia Tymoshenko's life and career. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 12:59, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Matt Mulhern Biography
Hi Wikipedia,

Just trying to point out a mistake on your Biography of the Actor Matt Mulhern. It said he had a recurring role in the TV Series 'Rescue Me'. As I was a big fan of both Rescue Me and the film Biloxi Blues, in which Mulhern played one of the lead roles, I knew there was something not right as I had no recollection of him in Rescue Me. It turns out the mistake is most likely down to another actor called Michael Mulheren being confused with Matt Mulhern-both incidentally from New Jersey, but different people and it was the former appeared in Rescue Me and not Matt. Hope this has been a help and will get to the correct person to fix the mistake.

Eamonn Walsh Ireland — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.178.95.4 (talk) 15:07, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for coming here Eamonn. I have put tags atop each article pointing to the other.
 * However, I think you're somewhat mistaken. They were both in Rescue Me, I think.  Michael played Chief Perolli for 13 episodes, 2004-2006. Matt played Lt. John Stackhouse for 3 episodes in 2006..Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:36, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Paco de Lucía
Several editors are adding death information for this subject but no references are being offered. I can not find any mention of his death searching the web and have reach 3RR to support its removal until referenced. I would like other opinions.—John Cline (talk) 09:06, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * A source has been added.—John Cline (talk) 09:24, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * We need a better source than a blog. Never mind - I've cited the BBC. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:03, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:3RRNO would apply here, regarding BLP. GiantSnowman 13:16, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Peter Ruckman
Some eyes are needed on the Peter Ruckman article. This diff is typical. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Sean.hoyland  - talk 16:43, 26 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Most of the information in this article is very one-side and defaming to this man's character. Much information is not correct.  I personally know Dr. Peter Ruckman very well (my father is a close friend of his) and this article is very defaming to his character.  I have tried to edit it to present the other side and correct errors, but someone else keeps changing it back.  There is enough evidence from those who PERSONALLY know Dr. Ruckman, and at least should be able to write what we KNOW to be true.  It is not fair to allow someone who has a very bad opinion and grudge against this man to be allowed to control the article, and not present the other side and evidence.  This violates true justice and smacks of communism and loss of freedom of speech.  If you allow this to continue, you are violating your own rules.
 * Thank you, A&A Clip — Preceding unsigned comment added by A&A Clip (talk • contribs) 18:14, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I know nothing about the man and yet I am reverting your edits. That is because they don't comply with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. You need to pause and take the time to read the relevant policies and guidelines (WP:BLP, WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:OR, WP:3RR and WP:COS) and consider whether you are able to comply with them. If you cannot, you should walk away from the article. The key thing to understand is that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia based on information published by reliable sources, not our personal knowledge and opinions. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Sean.hoyland  - talk 18:30, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Phil Robertson's remarks about black people, on Duck Dynasty
Hi, I may be missing something here so I'd like some uninvolved editors to look at the following content, is it a BLP violation? It has been in the well attended article since December 2013 but maybe it is a violation and I'm not seeing it. And RfC was started on the talk page over its inclusion:

"Robertson also drew criticism for viewpoints he expressed that critics characterized as "minimizing the era" of racial segregation in the southern United States, calling his comments "insensitive". Robertson said: "I never, with my eyes, saw the mistreatment of any black person. Not once. Where we lived was all farmers. The blacks worked for the farmers. I hoed cotton with them. I'm with the blacks, because we're white trash. We're going across the field [...] They're singing and happy. I never heard one of them, one black person, say, 'I tell you what: These doggone white people'—not a word! [...] Pre-entitlement, pre-welfare, you say: Were they happy? They were godly; they were happy; no one was singing the blues." In response, the Human Rights Campaign and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) wrote a joint letter to A&E calling Robertson's remarks dangerous and inaccurate.  Jesse Jackson's human rights group, the Rainbow PUSH Coalition, has "demanded meetings with A&E and with Cracker Barrel" over the issue, and, together with GLAAD and the National Organization for Women, urged A&E to keep Robertson on hiatus. Dan Savage opined that he felt that Robertson's comments about African-Americans under Jim Crow laws were "much more offensive", but because in American culture issues of sex are generally discussed more than issues of race, his comments about race would be discussed far less, in favor of issues about gay sexuality."

Comments from uninvolved parties

 * This material itself does not violate WP:BLP. It is adequately, albeit not exceptionally, well-sourced, and clearly falls under WP:WELLKNOWN. That said, it may be inappropriate for inclusion under other content policies. Whether the material constitutes undue weight, and whether it actually belongs in the article, is a larger question to be resolved at Talk:Duck Dynasty. On another note, the edit-warring taking place here is completely inappropriate and does not fall under the BLP exemption. If User:Collect, User:Nomoskedasticity, etc. continue to edit-war over this section, they will be blocked. MastCell Talk 20:54, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * For my part, there will obviously be no need. Collect, darling?  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:59, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Snark noted -- as is the fact that an RfC already decided this. Collect (talk) 21:28, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * An RfC on a different article, a BLP, concerned similar content, but it was not particularly well-written, or well sourced. I feel this entire chapter on the BLP article has fallen away from a NPOV position but like others have given up on getting any traction there. Sportfan5000 (talk) 21:31, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * If you guys are going to keep referring to an RfC, could someone please link to it directly, so that the rest of us can review it? Thank you. MastCell Talk 21:33, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Talk:Phil_Robertson Sportfan5000 (talk) 21:51, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * (ec) Huh? You really mean Phil Robertson is unconnected to this article?   I would love to see your reasoning on this -- especially since you earlier accused me of "pretending" about the RfC and then said 10 days was a long time ago <g>.  is the link which I posted several times by now at various pages where the shopping spree has occurred <g>.   Collect (talk) 21:36, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Your outrage is noted. Please stop whipping up hysteria and claiming BLP on everything. This is a simple content issue so invoking BLP rules because they work for your cause is only being disruptive at this point. Sportfan5000 (talk) 21:55, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * "Invoking BLP rules because they work for your cause is only being disruptive". That is the single worst piece of wikilawyering I think I've ever seen here. "Invoking" policies and guidelines that support one's position is not only perfectly appropriate conduct is discussions like this, it's typically the most effective and the preferred way to resolve disputes. If another editor's invocation of such standards cuts against your position, and you don't have a policy/guideline based refutation, your position is generally wrong and will be rejected by the community. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:21, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for making my point. i did have policy-based arguments, and BLP was being used, mistakenly or falsely, or for some other reason, as an excuse to disrupt the just-started RfC, every conversation we've had on the issue, and even this thread. No evidence that BLP was ever violated has been presented despite requests and others have noted no violation as well. To continue to cause deflections based on BLP is disruptive. If I was wrong about there being a BLP violation, I would have welcomed the clarification of what i was not seeing. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:45, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * That's rubbish. BLP policy prohibits the insertion of content whose main function is to disparage the subject or hold them up to ridicule. Wikipedia is not a place to document every embarrassing thing a celebrity has said or done. BLP requires a showing of significant encyclopedic value -- that the content is "important to the article" -- and the desire of some editors to name-and-shame people whose views they disapprove of has exactly nothing to do with that demonstration of importance. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 23:02, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * That's really not the point. Some editors have a habit of thinking that they can win any dispute by shouting "BLP".  In this particular case, that effort has failed, as it should have.  Whether the material ends up being included or not can be determined on more sensible grounds than were being offered by some; I don't mean to presume it belongs in the article  But the question is whether we can in fact have a sensible discussion about it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 23:08, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * That's exactly the point here. Whether it's embarassing comments in an interview, celebrity DUIs, wardrobe malfunctions, or various modes of public snark, BLP requires s showing of significant encyclopedic value to include such content. That can't be equated with "shouting 'BLP'" Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 23:33, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you may be missing the point. BLP was reigned from on high to smote the process and every conversation until enough people said, not really a BLP violation. It was disruptive and the same maneuver employed previously. It's disruptive and takes away from actually maturely discussing issues. It's repellent to level-headed editors who don't stomach the hysterics. If there were a BLP violation, everyone would have agreed with removal. Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:38, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm missing nothing; you're just trying to obscure the central point with empty rhetoric and insinuations of bad faith. If you're going to claim that editors who give BLP more weight than you do are immature and hysterical rather than "level-headed", you're acting far more high-handed and more disruptively than the editors whose arguments you reject. BLP sets, and is intended to set a relatively high bar (relative to other content). Wikipedia has a long and disgraceful track record of substantial editor support for even atrocious BLP violations, particularly with regard to attempts to name-and shame the unpopular; claiming that "everyone would have agreed with removal" of an actual BLP violation is impossible to reconcile with reality, so far removed that no reasonable and honest editor would do so. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 01:16, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow. I think your statement says everything. Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:36, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Not entirely sure. There is some disingenuousness on both sides here. On one hand the RfC in question was a non-admin closure which claimed clear consensus despite three people stating concerns regarding WP:NPOV on the other hand this does strike as forum shopping and as trying to slip something in on one page that didn't meet consensus on the other - which is not appropriate. I'd suggest it might be the best course of action to re-open the original RfC and give it a few days for additional people to weigh in on the initial dispute - preferably with an Admin closure and adherence to that decision by all involved parties, no further forum shopping. Simonm223 (talk) 21:50, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * That RfC was on the BLP page, and the content while similar was simply not the same. Meanwhile the Duck Dynasty article had the same content since the beginning of the controversy, it was always there. And no acted as if the RfC should somehow be binding on anything but the BLP article it was on. There were other issues as well, but I think that's it. Sportfan5000 (talk) 21:53, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Having finally seen the RfC in question, I agree with Simonm223. First of all, the RfC didn't address the BLP question&mdash;a handful of commenters mentioned NPOV/WEIGHT, while most just said "Yes", "No", or provided their (irrelevant) personal viewpoints on the controversy. The overall quality of input at the RfC was quite poor, and the closure was very questionable. That said, there does appear to be a genuine forum-shopping concern, in light of which it probably makes sense to close this thread and remand the discussion back to the article talkpage for another RfC&mdash;one which will hopefully draw more useful input. MastCell Talk 21:55, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Would it be a dual RfC to see if the content could be used on one, both, or neither article? I don't see Collect as forum shopping to do the RfC on the Duck Dynasty article, the content has been there from the beginning. Myself and other editors just gave up on the BLP article as it was an endless source of frustration. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:19, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * How many bites of the apple are needed? The fact is that the RfC on the direct BLP refused to countenance the edit, and trying to reargue there at the ten day mark sounds more like forumshopping than anything else.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:11, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Your continued attempts to cast me as forum shopping are tiresome. You removed long-standing sourced content from Duck Dynasty, if you honestly thought there was a BLP violation why did you wait since December 2013 to do so, or say anything to anyone? The RfC was on a different page, and the RfC was about that page, not that the content couldn't exist anywhere. As has been noted above there is no BLP violation, and as for furor shopping, you are the one that started the RfC, although I gladly endorse the concept. I think it violate NPOV to suppress this information but let's get more people to look at the content and see what happens. Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:45, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I shan't retort -- the facts are simple including  and  concurrent with this section and the section at Talk:Duck Dynasty which currently is running not precisely how you appear to wish.  When four or more fronts are opened on a single issue which was already settled at an RfC, it becomes interesting as to what it is. Collect (talk) 23:51, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The amount of bad faith being exhibited is astounding. I am very clearly asking for advice in an area I'm not that familiar. You see, some editors choose to try to work with others to find a path forward that doesn't involve a lot of elbowing others in the face. If asking for advice is against some guideline, then the guideline should be revisited. The "issue" was not settled at a RFC, although you may feel it was. Even stated above the close was problematic, as I see the close on the stand alone controversy article, may have also been. I'm trying to find a positive way forward. But if you choose to think the worst about others then that is your choice. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:00, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Comments from involved parties
Please do not remove the following comment again -- it has been improperly removed twice now and I am damn sick and tired of cleaning up after those who violate talk page rules about removing comments

Note: The material was discussed at an RfC which closed all of a week ago -- and this is blatant forum shopping now. The consensus was clear:
 * There is a clear consensus, that these comments shouldn't be included. Users supporting inclusion either didn't give any rationale or just vaguely waving with the WP:NPOV policy. Armbrust The Homunculus 14:05, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

The OP here had already commented at that RfC, and trying to get extra bites of the apple is improper IMO. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:16, 26 February 2014 (UTC) replaced yet again Collect (talk) 21:32, 26 February 2014 (UTC) In short -- the material failed at an RfC and this is blatant forumshopping. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:32, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Ronn Torossian
Comments please. Page with longtime disputes and editor seeks to overrule others in using gossip column as acceptable source for negative articles, yet not use for positive articles. Please help. Is an active living person. 165.254.85.130 (talk) 09:28, 21 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Issue is also one of WP:UNDUE and is about a lawsuit which one gossip column wrote about. when exact same gossip column wrote about a major purchase from a celebrity was disallowed. This issue is unnecessarily mean and unkind, as well as from a gossip source. 165.254.85.130 (talk) 09:31, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Wanted to add that the characterization of the dispute isn't entirely accurate. The above user wanted to include a news item about a real estate transaction which other editors on the article deemed to be gossip (and real estate news in Manhattan qualifies as gossip) and failed WP:NOTNEWS. Now, there was another news item, about Torossian being sued for libel, which the above editor does not deem Wikipedia-worthy. Which is well and all, but because both items were sourced to Daily News (New York), the editor interpreted it to mean all stories that come from the NYDN was gossip. And while I think we can argue over the amount of attention given to the libel suit, I think the complete removal of the topic is inappropriate.
 * A complicating matter with this article is that it, along with articles for 5W Public Relations and its interests, are occasional targets of SPAs and anonymous editors affiliated with the firm. And further complicating the issue are the nature of the topic's occupation - persuading media outlets to cover specific stories - and his reputation, accurate or not, for promoting himself and his firm as much as his clients. Mosmof (talk) 14:57, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Bump
There is an OTRS ticket 2014022410000719 re. This is one of those cases where a thankless task needs doing: the complaint is in respect of the rather sneering tone of the article, but the guy is a gifted self-publicist and this has been going on for years (2011032810012659, 2008110410017083, and 2006121510017939 which suggests the article has its roots in a PR exercise on his behalf by his firm) so treading the fine line of tone and balance is going to take some skill. If there's someone who is genuinely interested in the field of PR then please do have a go, because I think an editor with subject matter knowledge is likely to be the best bet here. Guy (Help!) 13:55, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm helping out on this article. There have been contributions to the article from editors with overt POV from both sides in the past, but I've started a debate and it seems to be going sensibly, so far. I'd therefore welcome assistance at the Talk page from any neutral editors used to BLP issues. Feel free to respond to any/all OTRS on this subject by referring them to me. --Dweller (talk) 14:03, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Marcus Pembrey, Edward J. Steele, Eva Jablonka
I usually walk through pathehtic crap like this, but this takes the cake.

I recently heard about Epiegenetics and naturally I wanted to see what I missed the last decade.

Eva Jablonka Intentionally missrepresent links.

Marcus Pembrey Same.

Edward J. Steele Same....AAAND the Anti Deffemation Leage link leads to An American Politician.

None of them fo what I could see refeered them selves as Lamarckians.

FYI, these manchildren are still around, disengeniusly spamming Lamarckian page and "Nature versus nurture" and half the Biology pages. 84.202.109.61 (talk) 16:57, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Mata Amritanandamayi
I'm concerned with content on the page for Mata Amritanandamayi. There is an unpublished book that is getting play in the India media and it seems that there is a group of editors who feel very strongly about including negative material against Mata Amritanandamayi. I believe they are violating WP:BLPCRIME Could somebody please take a look? User:Amrit914, 18:36, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The other editor in the dispute seems to be User:Drajay1976. I will put a link to this discussion at article talk.  In view of the user name of User:Amrit914, I suppose it's worth asking whether Amrit914 is editing on behalf of the subject.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:40, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

The section about the controversial allegations in the book is currently under mediation (Requests for mediation/Mata Amritanandamayi). I dont think it serves any purpose to have a parallel discussion here if there is a mediation going on about exactly the same issue. --Drajay1976 (talk) 04:30, 26 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I've volunteered to mediate the dispute, and I agree that it makes sense not to continue with this thread, and try to resolve the issues through mediation. PhilKnight (talk) 20:46, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Wes Cooley
A lot of uncited negative stuff.65.130.253.244 (talk) 05:04, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing this to our attention. and I have removed some of the crud. On the other hand, Cooley is legitimately controversial. More eyes on the article would be appreciated.  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328   Let's discuss it  05:20, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Chuck Philips
I also tried to start this discussion on the no original research noticeboard but thought maybe this was a more appropriate place?

Much of the article for journalist Chuck Philips is basically a description of the news articles he's written. But the references used are the articles themselves, which I believe would be a non-independent primary source and using that to write an article constitutes original research. Journalists are in a funny position with respect to Wikipedia where the thing they create is the currency we use to establish notability and verifiability. But for a Wikipedia article about a journalist I think you have to rely on articles written about that journalist by other journalists. Otherwise virtually any journalist would have enough citations floating around to warrant a Wikipedia article. Fnordware (talk) 23:29, 26 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree with you that this article has a lot of problems and relies far too much on citations to his own articles. However, there is a big difference between Chuck Philips and "virtually any journalist". He won a Pulitzer Prize for Beat Reporting in 1999, and the Pulitzer Prize Citation and the associated coverage in reliable sources establishes notability. There is plenty of independent coverage available describing his career.  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328  Let's discuss it  03:13, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'm definitely not doubting Chuck Philips' notability in terms of having a Wikipedia article. Take out the bad sources and there's still plenty to provide material for his article, although it would be much shorter than it currently is. The main thing I'm looking for is agreement that news articles written by a journalist are not good sources for a Wikipedia article about that journalist. And I think it might be helpful if that were mentioned in a guideline somewhere. I happened to notice it in Chuck Philips' article, but I also saw it in Touré's and I'm sure there are many many others. I'm happy to take this discussion elsewhere if there's a more appropriate place for it. Fnordware (talk) 04:54, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree that articles written by a journalist most certainly do not themselves establish the notability of that journalist. However, I do not see a BLP issue here, so much as an issue of the quality of sourcing. Philips is a bit controversial though. I also agree that it can be tough to find sources about a journalist when the search engines spit out a long list of articles by that journalist. So, if you discuss this overall issue elsewhere, please let me know. I would like to participate in that discussion.  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328  Let's discuss it  05:10, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I've also been discussing it on the no original research noticeboard, although I'm not sure that's the best place either. I've created yet another discussion on the Identifying reliable sources talk page. Maybe the answer is that these sources are bad, and so the text refers to them is simply unsourced. Fnordware (talk) 06:23, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

BTW, I had flagged the John Philips Chuck Philips article for multiple problems: Original research, autobiography, and POV. A user removed the flag without discussion. Does anyone care to (dis)agree with my assessment? Fnordware (talk) 05:17, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You mean Chuck Philips right? I've put the tags back, as per my post on the talk page. -- Neil N  <sup style="color:blue;">talk to me  05:36, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Ack, yes! Sorry, I've also been dealing with John M. Phillips and I guess I got my wires crosses for a second there. Thanks for reverting the changes. Fnordware (talk) 05:52, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


 * He has a Polk, a Pulitzer, a National Association of Black Journalists award. The articles are included as reference only. Scholarlyarticles (talk) 06:00, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

FamilyTreeLegends.com
This cite is used on hundreds of articles but I'm concerned in this case it might be overreaching.

MK Nobilette, is a finalist on American Idol. I just did this revert as it is giving out her name and date of birth citing this website. Was that a good call? Does it also need to be erased permanently? Sportfan5000 (talk) 02:27, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Blatant disregard for WP:BLPPRIMARY. Good job removing it. § FreeRangeFrog croak 03:21, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Eliot Spitzer
The third paragraph of Eliot Spitzer (merged from Early life of Eliot Spitzer, now a redirect, in this 2009 edit) reads"Spitzer devised a plan to set up his own sweatshop in the city's garment district, turning out shirts, pants and sweaters, and hiring 30 laborers. The shop manager eventually got close to the Gambinos, and officials were able to plant a bug in their office. The Gambinos, rather than being charged with extortion – which was hard to prove – were charged with antitrust violations. Joseph and Thomas Gambino, the latter being an extremely high-ranking member, and two other defendants took the deal and avoided jail by pleading guilty, paying $12 million in fines and agreeing to stay out of the business."citing a Time magazine paywalled article. If anyone has ready access to Time could you please check the veracity of the "sweatshop" claim and nature, if any, of our subject's link to these organized criminals? It's all very vague. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 08:45, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I've had a look (you caught me at a good time, just got to campus). The text in our article is supported impeccably by the Time source, e.g. use of the word sweatshop and liberal discussion of the Gambinos.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:52, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. In isolation, the Gambinos bit makes no sense to me. Did Spitzer have any connection with them, or just his shop-floor manager. What is the meaning of the "extortion" claim? Was Spitzer or his manager being extorted? Was Spitzer involved in bugging the office? Was it his/the manager's office or Gambino's office? Did the Gambinos agree to stay out of Spitzer's business, or the garment industry in general? Do you see waht I mean? It's vague. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 08:59, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Uh. I get it. It was a sting operation. There's a non-paywalled Vanity Fair article on it. I'll read up and try to clarify it later. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 09:11, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Cornelius Schilder
The following passage is highly contentious:

Although highly esteemed, after contradicting allegations of sexual abuse of a boy, many years ago, and of which there was no proof, it is claimed that the Vatican induced the bishop when in his late sixties into retirement. Schilder currently does not celebrate masses in public and exercises no pastoral tasks. He lives with the Mill Hill Missionaries in Oosterbeek, Netherlands.[3][4] --END OF PASSAGE

Please note: According to Fons Eppink, a senior member of Cornelius Schilder's own congregation (Mill Hill), bishop Schilder was removed from the Ngong bishopric by the Vatican for committing sexual abuse. Furthermore, Mr Eppink stated on the record that Schilder's right to say mass was revoked by the Mill Hill congregation, also as a punishment for committing sexual abuse. The entry on Schilder now visible on Wikipedia has been whitewashed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.202.114.190 (talk) 09:41, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Unsubstantiated gossip from a member of the congregation is not a reliable source. We need a much better source than that to justify inclusion of such serious allegations about a living person. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 09:56, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Health Services Union expenses affair
Deals with living persons. The issue at hand is an infobox listing one person seven  separate times in the infobox as "name of scandal",  "participant", "convicted", "charges" (twice), and "verdict" and a second person given six separate mentions in the same infobox, and the listing of  unnamed "family and associates" as conspirators in the infobox. I suggested that a single mention of each person is quite sufficient, but this is using a sledgehammer to make a point of their corruption (and the corrupt family and associates). Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:42, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

David John Pearson
Not sure where to take this, but I'll try here. On the face of it, the article - and the process of its development - would seem to contravene a whole raft of policies on notability, conflict of interest, and potential sockpuppetry as well. Could be a meaty one to get into. Can someone with more experience in such matters take a look at it, and see what you think? Ghmyrtle (talk) 00:13, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Ranjit Singh Boparan
I believe a major contributor to this page has a conflict of interest i.e that they work for the subject and thus are biased. verifiable but undesirable content has been removed by this user. Purplejumper (talk) 01:14, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Jahi McMath—How do we handle someone whose death is contested?
Background: Jahi McMath underwent a surgical procedure in late 2013, suffered complications which included a bleed and a period of cardiac arrest, during which her brain was not oxygenated. Subsequently, she was declared brain-dead by the hospital's doctors. Her family disagreed and fought the determination in court, which may have failed (the article seems to indicate that the trial court found against the family). McMath has been declared legally dead, but her body is still on life support.

Issue: There's an ongoing dispute over whether to describe McMath as living or deceased, and perhaps more seriously, whether McMath should be described in the past or present tense. That is, "Jahi McMath is ..." versus "Jahi McMath was ..." WP:BLP applies: if McMath is dead, she's recently deceased and still within the scope of WP:BLP. While my normal recommendation would be to discuss the dispute, there are two problems. First, how do we handle the tense issue? I don't think "creative wording" will work satisfactorily. Second, I'm not sure there are sources yet on this specific case that adequately discuss the dispute over whether McMath should be described as living or dead. There might be more general sources, but I'm not sure those could be invoked without running afoul of WP:SYN.

One solution suggested is "is/was", which I don't particularly like. An explanatory footnote probably wouldn't resolve the dispute either. My personal opinion is that we're well within WP:NOTNEWS territory, indicating that deletion might be appropriate, but that still doesn't really resolve the dispute. Opinions are welcome. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 15:11, 18 February 2014 (UTC)


 * An interesting example of how to handle something like this is the article on Lord Lucan. The opening paragraph nicely side-steps the alive or dead issue completely by the way it is worded and then explores the issue in more detail later. So perhaps in this case careful phrasing may do the job too? Shritwod (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:26, 18 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I think this approach could work here if the opening paragraph was changed to read something like: "Jahi McMath (May 26, 2000 – December 12, 2013) was declared brain-dead following post-operative complications from medical procedures aimed at relieving symptoms from sleep apnea. On January 3, 2014, the Alameda County coroner’s office issued a death certificate for McMath with a date of December 12, 2013. A cause of death was not included pending an autopsy." This change would sidestep the issue although I don't know if this change conforms to style guidelines. Ca2james (talk) 20:13, 18 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Wow, a FA that manages to avoid a similar problem. Well, color me impressed. Maybe clever wording can be used to avoid the issue. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 21:27, 18 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Just a couple of points of clarification. The court ruled that McMath's body could remain on a ventilator until January 7. McMath's family removed the body from the hospital on January 5, before a previously scheduled trial could take place, so no further rulings were made on whether removing mechanical ventilation violated the family's freedom of religion and privacy, as their lawyer claimed. (Citations on these points are in the article.) As to whether McMath's body is still on a ventilator, no reliable, independent sources have documented the body's condition nor whereabouts since January 5. Funcrunch (talk) 16:48, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The idea that Jahi is not dead would seem to be a fringe theory. That does not mean I would not treat the article with extraordinary sensitivity - but BLP does not require us to ignore an avalanche of medical and legal evidence. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:09, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I would agree to the Lord Lucan style being used but the editor who continues to undo/edit-war and revert has shown that they do not approve. How about saying, "(born... declared death...) in this case adding the modifier "declared" "Legally declared", or even "brain-death" or any other modifier to signify the circumstances?24.0.133.234 (talk) 00:24, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Please don't put words into my mouth or mischaracterize my actions. I would disagree that this case is similar to Lord Lucan and agree with NorthBySouthBaranof that the position that McMath was alive after December 12 is a fringe theory. However, in the interest of compromise I would support removing both the birth and death dates from the article and infobox and phrase the lede as suggested by Ca2james above, minus the dates: "Jahi McMath was declared brain-dead following post-operative complications from medical procedures aimed at relieving symptoms from sleep apnea. On January 3, 2014, the Alameda County coroner’s office issued a death certificate for McMath with a date of December 12, 2013. A cause of death was not included pending an autopsy." Funcrunch (talk) 00:37, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I would agree to that. Maybe making sure that her age at the time she entered the hospital or some other reference to her age is in the article somewhere. It is not a perfect solution, but it would help make the article more neutral. And sorry Funcrunch-didn't want to speak for you.24.0.133.234 (talk) 00:48, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I absolutely do not believe we should remove the birth/death dates. Noting that she was declared brain-dead is fine. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:16, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that's the only way you're going to get a compromise, and doing so harms nothing. Just mention the DOB and date when declared brain-dead later in the article. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 05:52, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, no, then this is not an acceptable "compromise" and doing so is an unacceptable concession to a fringe theory. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 11:10, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * If that's your position, NorthBySouthBaranof, I propose you are the one being unreasonable. Rephrasing the lead so as to not give credit to either side is not giving an endorsement to a fringe theory, and attempting to paint it as some huge concession is patently hogwash. I further propose that a consensus is emerging here that the article be reworked to reflect that consensus. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 00:28, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not a matter of "giving credit." NPOV does not require some fantastical notion of "equal time" or "balance" - it requires that we balance competing viewpoints in accordance with their prominence in reliable sources. Far and away, the reliable sources in this case describe McMath as dead. Therefore, that is the viewpoint which must predominate within the article. Her family's claims to the contrary are notable, but they are not controlling. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:44, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Are we talking about removing the birth and death dates from the text of the article, or from the info box at the top, or both? As long as the dates remain in the article somewhere - as in the info box - I support this compromise.Ca2james (talk) 15:02, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Now that the article has been renamed to clarify that it is not a biography, it makes sense to me to remove the infobox. The article as it currently stands states the girl's age and date of death, and her nationality and parents' names aren't really relevant. Funcrunch (talk) 19:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I support the retention of the infobox, as per the precedent of Terri Schiavo case, after which this article has been renamed. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:46, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I also support the retention of the infobox as per the precedent of the Terri Schiavo case. It doesn't make sense to me for these two very similar articles to have different infoboxes. I also think that the information in the infobox is relevant as it provides context for the case. Ca2james (talk) 14:51, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * As illustrated by today's edits, we still don't have a resolution on this issue. My suggestion to remove the infobox was not just because of the birth and death dates, but because the family members' names really aren't as relevant in this case. In the Terri Schiavo case, the parents and spouse became more notable themselves owing to how long the situation dragged out, their internal clashes and the forming of a foundation after Terri's death, etc. I would argue again that McMath's nationality and city of residence aren't relevant to this article either; it's sufficient to say that she was treated at Children's Hospital in Oakland. Funcrunch (talk) 01:58, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The birth and death dates are definitely relevant. The mother's name is relevant because she's the one who has brought the legal cases forwards. The father and stepfather's names are irrelevant and I think they can be removed. The country, at least, is totally relevant because I don't think this situation could occur anywhere else in the world, and I think it - or the city - belongs in the infobox. Ca2james (talk) 02:16, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know how to find a resolution that will satisfy this anon, then, as instead of edit warring over verb tense we now have edit warring over listing the death date in the infobox. 24.0.133.234 (talk) appears to be the only editor posting either here or at the article talk page who does not agree that Jahi McMath died on December 12. How do we reach consensus under these circumstances? Funcrunch (talk) 17:25, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm willing to concede that the infobox can be deleted (see below) so I think we've got consensus there. I don't know how to reach a consensus on the rest of the article with respect to the date of death when a single editor does not agree. Ca2james (talk) 18:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * IP editor is continuing to post long treatises on brain death and medical ethics to the talk page, and has shown unwillingness to compromise in order to reach consensus with the other editors regarding the handling of this article. I have no solution. Funcrunch (talk) 17:30, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Is it fair to say that the IP editor is engaging in WP:DISRUPT? If so, is time to seek resolution via one or another of the steps in WP:DDE? Ca2james (talk) 20:25, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Probably, but as IP has accused me personally of edit warring and ownership issues, and my attempt to seek outside assistance to resolve the dispute here has apparently failed, I'd rather someone else seek resolution at this point. Funcrunch (talk) 20:51, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

How do we handle someone whose death is contested? Well, there's always the BLPN Hit Squad. As a last resort, of course. Other methods of disambiguation are always preferable. We here at Wikipedia are already quite accustomed to character assassination, so this will be but a small step. I mean this literally.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:33, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I wrote the immediately preceding (stricken) comment in a humorous way, before looking at the article, which I've now looked at and edited slightly. It really is a tragic case, and my sympathies go out to all concerned.  The state says she's dead and her parents say she isn't.  Wikipedia need not and should not take sides.  This may make editing more difficult, but it can be done.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

If there is even a scintilla of dispute, WP:BLP absolutely applies -- and is considered to apply to "recently dead" people by practice in any event. The goal is "do no harm" and if harm would be seen by anyone involved, we ought not do it. Collect (talk) 18:15, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * With this in mind, I can see that it is better to remove the death date from the infobox for now (there will come a time when the family comes to the realization that the body they are maintaining is, in fact, dead, and the article will likely change at that time). Without the death date information and with the addition of the state in the lead, I concede that the rest of the info in the infobox is irrelevant and support its removal. Ca2james (talk) 18:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Mendaliv - Your assistance thus far in resolving this dispute have been appreciated. Unfortunately, despite the "is/was" and infobox issues being addressed, IP editor 24.0.133.234 remains unsatisfied with the content of the (now renamed) Jahi McMath case article, and is continuing to engage in editing and talk page behavior that Ca2james and myself consider to be disruptive. We could use more guidance as to how to proceed and/or escalate. Funcrunch (talk) 23:19, 1 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I have agreed that we need help. I have been continuing to edit? is that an example of disruptive behavior? If so please just BLOCK ME so that the censorship issue is clear.24.0.133.234 (talk) 23:35, 1 March 2014 (UTC)


 * With respect to conflict resolution, it would be helpful if repeated conduct by NorthBySouthBaranof on the Jahi McMath page, which appears to be in violation of the 3RR, could also be looked into --BoboMeowCat (talk) 03:41, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Would be interesting if repeatedly-disruptive conduct by anonymous IPs inserting non-scientific nonsense was examined as well. A number of concessions have been made - removing the birth and death dates, nixing the infobox, etc. - but there seems to be no end to the demands that this article's content be dominated and directed by the fringe POV that a brain-dead person is not dead. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:49, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I think referring to this editor's content as "non-scientific nonsense" shows bias. From comments in talk page, it seems clear that 24.0.133.234 takes the side of the McMath family while NorthBySouthBaranof takes side of the hospital.  This is going to cause editing conflicts.   Unfortunately, I've seen both editors add unreferenced content to support their viewpoint, but NorthBySouthBaranof's edits in this regard seem more disruptive due to violation of 3RR.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 13:14, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * As far as the article is concerned, I am trying to take the side of WP. The biased and "sided" edits that appear in the article just stick-out more clearly to myself I guess because as i have admitted, I do not personally believe that the child is deceased. I have never disputed legal death and brain death as being a fact in the case. I also admit that I have made mistakes of every kind while editing the article but I have been operating with good faith in trying to improve the article with the ultimate goal of making it an unbiased WP article on the topic of the Jahi McMath case.24.0.133.234 (talk) 14:24, 2 March 2014 (UTC)24.0.133.234 (talk) 14:25, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Cara Delevingne
Hi, I could use some help with this please. Even the more reliable sources such as The Huffington Post and The Telegraph are quoting another party (other than the subject) in the Daily Mirror tabloid which is not a reliable source. Helen Online  08:37, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Also here in Michelle Rodriguez. Helen Online  08:41, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

The edit summary of this revert of my WP:BLPREMOVE by Tbhotch states "It's not that difficult to use Google News. The Mirror may not be reliable, but Rodriguez and Delevingne are". The Mirror article which supposedly quotes Rodriguez and another unnamed source is not an official press release or statement and it was definitely not quoting Delevingne. Helen Online  08:26, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I'd approach the statement with caution at this stage. I note that the Independent, for example, caveats the story by saying here that "Earlier this week, Rodriguez also apparently confirmed the romance, though many initially approached her statement with caution, as it was printed in The Mirror from what appeared to be an undisclosed interview." Hchc2009 (talk) 09:49, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I hadn't seen the Independent article which is probably the most reliable source so far. However, the comment "I love her, she's great" is not exactly conclusive proof. The Independent commenters pretty much echo my own impressions of the whole story (not relevant here I know, but at least I know I am not alone), i.e. speculative gossip, possible PR stunt. Wikipedia is not the place for gossip, campaigning or commercial promotion and we should be better than the media at filtering such information. Helen  Online  11:54, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * BTW the secondhand comment quoted in the Independent (from the Digital Spy website) was pretty selective. The full quote is "I don't know what you're talking about. I love her, she's great." (emphasis mine). Helen  Online  13:43, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Update: TMZ has updated their article noting that Rodriguez's rep told them that Rodriguez never spoke to The Mirror, and Delevingne was quoted in The Mirror today saying "I love her, she’s great. She’s a very good friend of mine – she’s wonderful." Helen  Online  13:51, 22 February 2014 (UTC)


 * This content is still being added regularly to both articles either without sources or with unreliable sources (latest: ), and none of the editors concerned (including not new registered ones) are interested in discussing it here as requested. Both articles are now pending changes protected. I'm not sure what else I can do, but I would like this to stay here a bit longer, ideally until either the fuss blows over (probably when the tabloid media publishes a more interesting story) or we have reliable sources (not holding my breath).  Helen  Online  06:32, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Related discussion moved here from Talk:Michelle Rodriguez
Is it the right the right time to add Michelle's supposed relationship with the British model Cara Delevingne? Editors have rightly been reverting edits confirming their relationship because the sources were a bit dodgy etc... but now the relationship is being "confirmed" by numerous British national newspapers. Should we start updating Michelle's relationship status? Tomh903 (talk) 18:24, 24 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I am not aware of any reliable sources confirming the relationship that do not rely on secondhand information from unreliable sources such as The Mirror (who Rodriguez's rep says Rodriguez never spoke to). Please rather discuss at Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Helen  Online  19:55, 24 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply Helen  Online . Now the Daily Mail, Metro, Daily Mirror, Independent and Irish Independent are reporting on her relationship. Is that enough sources yet? Tomh903 (talk) 17:08, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * It's not a question of quantity, it's a question of quality. If they are tabloids or quoting secondhand information from an unreliable source such as The Mirror, they are of no use. Once again, I must ask you to please discuss it at WP:BLPN which specialises in such issues (and because it affects more than one BLP article). Helen  Online  17:13, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * It is clearly stated by TMZ which is not a tabloid magazine or second hand source that Michelle Rodriguez is not in a relationship with the British model. This is coming directly from her publicist and the News source .Mcelite (talk) 01:04, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Stuart Murphy
I am new to Wikipedia and hope that those with better knowledge than I about the intricate workings of editing play fair with me. Looking at the history of this entry I am concerned that all references to Stuart Murphy's homosexuality are removed very rapidly without reason. Murphy has gone on the record regarding his sexuality. For example http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jun/24/stuart-murphy-sky-battle-box  and elsewhere. What precisely merits the censorship of this well known aspect of his life anymore than removing all references to Stephen Fry's homosexuality in his Wikipedia entry? Its removal is offensive to the gay community. Or have I misunderstood? I am happy to stand corrected if so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.60.135.151 (talk) 19:35, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, you've misunderstood.


 * If you're new to Wikipedia, why are you repeating the exact self-same comparison (of Murphy to Fry) that another editor posted on my talk page more than a year ago? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:28, 21 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Could it be that he (or she), like me, simply looked at the history of the SM talk page and followed the link to your historical (and to some degree hysterical) "discussions"?  Why are perfectly polite newbies on Wikipedia treated in such a hostile and suspicious fashion?   He or she makes a very good albeit repeated point about Fry and I don't see you, Demiurge, adopting a helpful attitude here.  Saying "Yes you have misunderstood" without explaining why isn't fair is it?  So please explain why a man who is openly gay (and has said so on the record in the Guardian and to camera at the Edinburgh TV Festival) should have this issue removed from Wikipedia over and over again by you?  Look at the history everyone.  It makes for fascinating and revealing reading !  In the meantime if references to the guy's sexuality is removed again, I'll go onto the Fry page and remove those too.   50.60.134.27 (talk) 12:41, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Will you? making threats above can be assumed to be the same person as the other 50.60.xx, although implying otherwise. I've blocked the range for a few weeks. Bishonen &#124; talk 13:03, 22 February 2014 (UTC).

WOW! I hear the sounds of grinding axes. This is generating a lot of heat but little light and blocking people for making a joke, which is how the Fry comment read to me, is a bit severe isn't it? It probably is the same guy but he makes good points. I see no light coming from Demiurge1000 just the rapid knee jerk revert revert. The ref to Murphy's homosexuality is going back on the page. Can we have a cool, calm, level-headed senior editor with no connection to this Murphy page to oversee it? What IS the big deal here? All it says is that the guy is gay which he has said many times? 181.41.209.19 (talk) 14:06, 22 February 2014 (UTC)


 * His sexual orientation is of no relevance to the article. Tiptoety  talk 01:23, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

The Stuart Murphy article has been placed in several gay and LGBT categories so it's not likely his sexual orientation is completely erased. You raise a good question though since, when it is an entertainer or sports figure declaring they are LGBT, mention of it is usually included in their article but it is considered irrelevant for individuals who aren't so obviously on a public stage. Liz <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 12:43, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Liz. Stuart Murphy is hardly unknown. Yet, seldom a day passes without there being a press release from him (in his role as one of the major commissioners for British and U.S  TV). He is very well known not only by many who work in TV (and who doubtless consider him to be a role model as the youngest ever controller in BBC TV etc.), but by regular readers of newspapers' media pages etc. Tiptoety's edit entry (though not on this page I note) says “his children are not notable, and noting that he has them adds nothing to the article. Do not re-add this material. Continually re-adding will result in a block”. This unpleasantness is unsupported by the accusation of a violation per WP:BLP. How does directly quoting Murphy regarding his familial circumstances and his sexuality (from reliable sources)constitute such a violation? The identities of the children are not revealed in the entry. And his sexual circumstances are noteworthy not least because of his senior position in TV and editorial powers. He could certainly be an inspiration to many men and women facing a similar predicament. So I say its inclusion does add to the article and I am going to revert. If I am blocked by Tiptoety as that editor threatens, I would welcome the wider involvement of the Wikipedia community to look into this. I see a pincer movement and blocking threats going on too frequently between Tiptoety and  Demiurge1000 (see above). Look at the history of the Murphy entry (as suggested above). If I am blocked, I will bring this to the attention of the founder of the esteemed organization. 181.41.209.86 (talk) 15:34, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


 * So, by that train of thought, if I was to openly say that I am, for example a straight man, that would warrant being included in an article about me? What if I didn't want it included? What if I didn't want an entry about me on one of the top 5 websites to make mention of my children? Tiptoety  talk 02:01, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * By default on Wikipedia everyone is presumed to be straight, and we regularly report on straight people's girlfriends, and boyfriends. It's only when the people are LGBT that every nuance has to be sourced, often multiple times, for the content to survive. Sportfan5000 (talk) 10:08, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

If anyone with considerable power in the media (such as Murphy) decides to single out details of their sexual preferences in a high profile newspaper interview (straight or otherwise), then such comments must be regarded as significant. Most heterosexual men don't go out of their way to divulge whether they are straight or not, but those who do (usually by mentioning their conquests) clearly do so for a reason and it seems perverse that some Wikiepedia editors want to expunge such freely given and significant personal information. Murphy's sexuality has clearly had an impact on his editorial thinking. Before he came out, he commissioned the first very out newsreader for BBC3 tv (and made a PR feature of it). I guess that many of his Sky comedies like "Trollied" (almost a present day "Are you Being Served") attract a gay audience. That is why I find the expunging mention of this man's homosexuality sinister because I don't trust the motives. Is Murphy himself regretting he mentioned it now he climbs higher up the ladder? Just as sinister is the bullying tone of the editors wanting to applying the censorship in this entry. Aggression is becoming epidemic in Wikipedia. Read the terse and cavalier remarks above this entry from editors presumably with a high number of wiki barn stars but with obviously very low self esteem. Such a barbed tonality will eventually damage Wikipedia's reputation. Bullying (phrases like "you are going to get blocked" without giving reason) isn't permitted in the school playground, so why is it tolerated in the grown up world of Wikipedia? More severe action should be taken against such people. I am going to send this little interchange to Jimmy Wales. 181.41.209.134 (talk) 12:40, 28 February 2014 (UTC) 181.41.209.134 (talk) 12:42, 28 February 2014 (UTC) 181.41.209.134 (talk) 12:44, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Debbie Schlussel
The subject of this article wrote me a very angry note about the article about her and I've decided to try to help improve it. I have made some edits already but could use some help.

The article is unrelentingly negative in tone, but that is in no small part because virtually all third party writing about her is hostile due to her controversial (to say the least) positions and her own angry style of writing. But on top of that, in looking into our summaries of several of her positions or past controversies, I'm find the article to be sometimes weak in terms of good quality summary of what was actually said or what actually happened.

There also appears to be far too much reliance on blogs for sourcing.

Anyway, help would be appreciated and there's some stuff I have written on the talk page.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:10, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Myself and another editor showed up to help Jimbo with this. More are always welcome.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:44, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I feel as though the article is fine the way it is now, the majority of it was listing the controversial things she said, which is important to include. I don't see a problem with it! Adamh4 (talk) 19:37, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The main controversy now is about the stuff regarding Poland (toward the end of the BLP).Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:25, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Now it's been nominated for deletion.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:21, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Willie Manning
I've removed contentious material about a living person several times, with detailed explanations in Talk as to why this was necessary. The material has been replaced each time. The last time this was done, it was accompanied by threatening and disparaging comments. Smallnslow (talk) 02:00, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This matter involves a person on death row for murder. For reasons that I'm unsure of, the discussion has been at user talk, instead of at article talk.  See User talk:Smallnslow.  The other editor involved in this controversy is User:Bundleofsticks.  I will place a link to this discussion at article talk.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:07, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the heads-up, Anythingyouwant. I gave user Smallnslow constructive advice about WP policies (NPOV and RS) and offered to help him/her edit the article and s/he ignored that advice and blasted on.  All Smallnslow has done is remove sourced RS material from the article, in order to push a POV.  Smallnslow's edits were so severe that they triggered two separate bots to undo the changes.  The subject of the article has been convicted of two double murders.  That is simply a fact.  It is a fact that has been stated in most of the leading newspapers of the United States.  I do not see that I have violated WP:BLP. Bundlesofsticks (talk) 05:22, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Is the basic disagreement here about whether we should call a convicted murderer a "murderer" before he has exhausted all appeals?Anythingyouwant (talk) 06:04, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I haven't looked at what is going on at the article but I have had a look at that talk page, User talk:Smallnslow. The statement "the phrase "is/was a convicted murderer" is a common one in the lede of articles about murderers on Wikipedia" is not what I would necessarily call constructive advice given that other Wikipedia leads aren't relevant. Smallnslow's suggestion to change 'convicted murderer' to 'convicted of murder' seems to be a simple and effective solution that is consistent with policy. It's an indisputable fact that Manning was 'convicted of murder'. If that statement doesn't contain the information editors wish to convey using the encyclopedia's voice, what is it exactly that is not being conveyed by that statement ? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Sean.hoyland  - talk 06:59, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * If that were all there were to it, I would not have reverted. But Smallnslow cut 4735 bytes, almost half the article, including basically all of the evidence from two murder trials that was rehashed on numerous appeals.  User Smallnslow is apparently trying to push the POV that Manning is innocent and trying to delete anything from the article that interferes with that POV, like eyewitnesses, ballistics tests, having the victims' property. I mentioned those other articles because Smallnslow argued that saying someone is a convicted murderer is POV; I pointed out that is not POV but is rather a common practice on WP. Anyway, it's just a fact. He was convicted of four murders. Bundlesofsticks (talk) 07:47, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Understood. Baby steps. They seem to be a new single-purpose-so-far account and the learning curve is steep. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Sean.hoyland  - talk 08:12, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm a newbie - that accounts for my technical problems, including triggering automatic reversion of text. That does not make my comments about this article less valid. Manning briefly attracted national attention in 2013, when the Mississippi Supreme Court ruled not to allow him DNA testing http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/04/us/dna-tests-rejected-for-inmate-facing-tuesday-execution.html?_r=0 The Wikipedia article places undue weight on tabloid journalism, especially in using an article http://www.cdispatch.com/news/article.asp?aid=24056&TRID=1&TID= that, astonishingly, chose to ignore the national controversy in favour of publishing a one-sided article whose purpose appears to have been to persuade its readers of Manning's guilt. I also deleted court records, as Wikipedia suggests these are unreliable texts. I agree with what Bundlesofsticks says above <He was convicted of four murders>. I find this wording more neutral than "He murdered four people". Smallnslow (talk) 08:51, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The Commercial Dispatch is not a tabloid. It has its own article on Wikipedia and from that article we learn that the newspaper has been existence since before 1910.  Manning's guilt had been long established when that article was published.  Court records are not unreliable, but they are primary sources.  Primary sources are not forbidden in WP articles, but they are discouraged in favor of secondary and tertiary sources.  I again suggest you learn these policies of WP before slashing articles wholesale.  Pay especial interest to the WP:NPOV policy.  Everyone is eager to learn the results of the DNA testing.  I have no doubt that it will lead to more national headlines. Bundlesofsticks (talk) 09:15, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Responding to the comments from Bundlesofsticks <Manning's guilt had been long established when that article was published.> "New York Times, 3 May, 2013 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/04/us/dna-tests-rejected-for-inmate-facing-tuesday-execution.html?_r=0 “Lawyers for Mr. Manning have argued that the case has serious holes. Some of the trial witnesses gave accounts inconsistent with known facts, they said, and one key witness, the former girlfriend, was given a favorable plea deal on fraud charges as well as nearly $18,000 in reward money after testifying for the prosecution, details not fully disclosed to the trial jury. Mr. Manning’s lawyers also pointed to fingerprints found in Ms. Miller’s car, which had been driven elsewhere and abandoned after the killings. None of the prints matched Mr. Manning’s, and multiple prints were found that did not match those of the victims.” <The Commercial Dispatch is not a tabloid. It has its own article on Wikipedia and from that article we learn that the newspaper has been existence since before 1910.> WP:SPS and WP:SOURCES "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight." There appears to be no editorial oversight involved in the Dispatch article that I removed. http://www.cdispatch.com/news/article.asp?aid=24056&TRID=1&TID= To publish a ‘news story’ that presents Manning in so bad a light, without reference to the wider context and without presenting an alternative or mitigating viewpoint (at a time when well-established news outlets were reporting indications of a possible wrongful conviction), is at the very least sensationalist, in keeping with the tabloid press. The wider context at that time was: New York Times, 3 May, 2013 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/04/us/dna-tests-rejected-for-inmate-facing-tuesday-execution.html?_r=0 The State of Mississippi has denied requests for DNA testing of evidence made by a prisoner set to be executed on Tuesday, potentially setting up what experts said would be a rare case in recent years in which a person is put to death with such requests unmet. <Court records are not unreliable, but they are primary sources. Primary sources are not forbidden in WP articles, but they are discouraged in favor of secondary and tertiary sources.> WP:BLP Avoid misuse of primary sources . Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. <Pay especial interest to the WP:NPOV policy.> It's an indisputable fact that Manning was 'convicted of murder'. If that statement doesn't contain the information editors wish to convey using the encyclopedia's voice, what is it exactly that is not being conveyed by that statement ? Sean.hoyland - talk <I again suggest you learn these policies of WP before slashing articles wholesale.> •	WP:GRAPEVINE "Remove immediately any contentious material about a living person that is unsourced or poorly sourced."	WP:BLPREMOVE Smallnslow (talk) 20:02, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not an appeals court. Arguments that lawyers are making to have a conviction overturned do not factor into editing decisions.  Unless you want to start a paragraph "alleged problems with the cases," which would necessarily have to cite the kind of court documents you claim are barred from the article.


 * Wikipedia is also not a journalism review board. The Commercial Dispatch of Columbus is a reputable newspaper written and run by professional journalists.  It is an RS.  Compare that to a blog.  A blog is not an RS.  Newspapers and other RS refer to a person as an "alleged murderer" before he is convicted and a "convicted murderer" after.  Manning was convicted not once, but twice, in two separate trials, nearly 20 years ago, of double murder.  He is a double double murderer.  No newspaper will refer to a killer as an "alleged murderer" after conviction.  Your beef with the Commercial Dispatch is without merit.


 * Court records are fair sources in an article about a court case that has been written about in secondary sources.Bundlesofsticks (talk) 22:08, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:Perp, a Wikipedia article about a criminal is okay for us to have as long as it meets certain requirements. I assume that, here in this case, "the motivation for the crime or the execution of the crime was unusual—or has otherwise been considered noteworthy—such that it is a well-documented historic event. Generally, historic significance is indicated by sustained coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources which persists beyond contemporaneous news coverage and devotes significant attention to the individual's role." You should be able to summarize Manning's historic significance in a sentence or two, and put that into the lead. Just saying that he committed two double-murders does not seem to be enough, because (unfortunately) people are murdered all the time. Was it the FBI's rescinding of a report that makes this historic? Such rescinding doesn't sound to me like something that was obviously historic, unless someone at the FBI committed a crime, or unless Manning's conviction is overturned due to the rescinding.Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:00, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The reason this case has garnered the attention it has in the national media is because of the FBI rescinding an evidence report it issued, an extremely unusual situation, although I don't know about "historic." The FBI action is being discussed in terms of whether it is a new policy that will affect other cases.  The second reason this is notable is because Manning was convicted of two separate double murders.  I cannot think of anyone else who committed two double murders.  In the original version of the page, it stated Manning had "the unique distinction" of that; another editor quickly changed it to "rare," and since I wasn't able to document that Manning's status is completely unique, I didn't object or revert.  Now you have removed even "rare."  What makes this a truly unique set of circumstances is that a court could decide to completely throw out Manning's conviction on the first double murder (Steckler-Miller) on the basis of the FBI report but Manning could still be executed for the second double murder (Jimmerson-Jordan).  Or Manning could be executed for Jimmerson-Jordan while the latest Steckler-Miller appeal is still ongoing.  Either way, this case has already been considered noteworthy.Bundlesofsticks (talk) 10:43, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * User:Bundlesofsticks, I think people are convicted all the time of multiple murder. Even if the conviction of killing one of them is overturned on appeal, the person often still serves the original sentence (e.g. life in prison).  IMHO, the only potentially historic thing here is the FBI rescission, but it needs to be explained better in the lead.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:05, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The Manning case is significant as the first of 27 cases the FBI is reviewing, which might indicate a significant policy change. I will work on the lede.  You are correct that there are multiple murders all the time.  The unique thing about this is TWO SEPARATE double murders. Bundlesofsticks (talk) 22:42, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * So if someone does three separate double murders, or two separate triple murders, then they get a Wikipedia article? In any multiple murder, the prosecutor can decide to charge separately for each one, so I still don't see the significance of that.  But the FBI policy change might be enough significance for an article.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:01, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I personally think Manning does not merit a Wikipedia article at all. The FBI’s rescinding of its hair report in this case, insofar as it was notable at all, was significant only in its timing (there have been many other cases since). It heightened the focus on the main topic in news outlets at the time, which was that the Mississippi Supreme Court was prepared to execute Manning [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/04/us/dna-tests-rejected-for-inmate-facing-tuesday-execution.html?_r=0%20 without allowing him testing of DNA and fingerprint evidence. ] However, the Court did eventually reverse its judgment and allow this testing. I think with this reversal, Manning’s historic significance disappears. Smallnslow (talk) 12:35, 27 February 2014 (UTC) P.S. First link I added doesn't appear to work, so here it is in full: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/american-justice-scandal-fbi-could-be-at-fault-in-27-death-row-cases-8718135.html Smallnslow (talk) 12:42, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * So if you can't have your way with the article, you don't want it to exist at all. That is censorship. Bundlesofsticks (talk) 22:42, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

My opinion relates to the question put by Anythingyouwant, ‘Was it the FBI’s rescinding of a report that makes this historic?’ The FBI’s decision to correct errors in hair testimony cases was made the previous year. It was not made in response to Manning’s case. “Federal officials found Manning’s case as part of a broad review of the FBI’s handling of scientific evidence in thousands of violent crimes in the 1980s and 1990s. The Justice Department announced last summer an effort to correct past errors in forensic hair examinations before 2000 — at least 21,000 cases — to determine whether agents exaggerated the significance of purported hair “matches” in lab reports or trial testimony.” Washington Post, May 4 2013 http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/justice-dept-admits-flaws-in-forensic-testimony-in-mississippi-death-row-case/2013/05/03/aca18176-b41c-11e2-baf7-5bc2a9dc6f44_story.html So the evaluation of Manning's historic significance hinges not on an FBI change of policy, but on his case being the first to be announced, in dramatic circumstances, very close to the time of his scheduled execution. Smallnslow (talk) 13:26, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Peter Ludlow BLP Violation
I reverted this edit as it was in the lead and misrepresented the source. The source summarises the story of a student suing a university for allegedly failing to act on sexual harassment allegations. The edit changed the onus of the lawsuit from the university to the subject, and exaggerated the allegations. The talk page discussion also violates BLP and I believe the edit summaries beginning with this one, may need redacting - and some of the comments regarding allegations of assault are not supported by reliable sources. This source seems to confirm that the subject breached a university sexual harassment code and was disciplined, however it doesn't support the current allegations. Could an admin please have a look a and consider redacting edit summaries (I have changed the section heading for posts going forward). Is it OK for me to refactor or strike through those sections of posts which are in violation?  Flat Out  let's discuss it  05:14, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * With a new source being provided in this talk page edit, I would like to propose the following addition to the article:
 * "In response to a lawsuit by a former student, Northwestern University detailed it's finding that in 2012 Ludlow had violated its sexual harassment code and was the subject of disciplinary action." Ludlow was not named in the lawsuit and refutes the student's allegations of sexual harassment. ''' Flat Out  let's discuss it  05:01, 26 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree with Flat Out that there are unacceptable edits, which need to be dealt with, but I am not sure whether everything he/she says is right. I will outline some of my thoughts on the matter, and I will welcome constructive comments about what I say, both from Flat Out and from others.


 * I have checked the edit in the first link Flat Out provides, and compared it with the sources it cites. I agree that there are problems with the edit, for reasons which I will explain below, but I don't see how the edit "changed the onus of the lawsuit". If that means that the edit to the article focussed mainly on the accusation against Ludlow, not on the charges against the university, then surely that is because it is an article about Ludlow, and the part of the story relating to him is what is relevant to the article. Nor do I see in what way it exaggerated the allegations. On the contrary, one problem that I see is that the edit sticks too closely to exactly what one of the sources says, so that it might be seen as verging on copyright infringement. I have looked at the edit summary in the second edit Flat Out links to, and it is not clear to me what the problem is. The edit summary says "Added section", and then states what the added section is about. It is about allegations, and it is well established by numerous sources that there have been allegations. The edit summary does not state in detail what the allegations are, and I am not clear why merely mentioning that there have been allegations is problematic.


 * Flat Out goes on to say "some of the comments regarding allegations of assault are not supported by reliable sources". If that is so, then it is a serious cause for action. The source which Flat Out says "seems to confirm that the subject breached a university sexual harassment code and was disciplined" reads to me like a piece of tub-thumping, and I have doubts as to how reliable a source it is. However, it is probably reliable enough to support that specific statement. Flat Out goes on to say that it "doesn't support the current allegations". Does that mean the specific accusations said to have been made by a student? If so, then that is an important point. No matter how many reliable sources we can find that say that a student has said "such and such a person did such and such things", that is only evidence that someone has made that accusation, not that the accusation is valid. A very common mistake is to think that Wikipedia uses the same standards as respectable newspapers, which follow the principle that an allegation made in court may be reported as an allegation, whether or not it is justified. That is not so: Biographies of living persons says, amongst other things, "For people who are relatively unknown, editors must give serious consideration to not including material in any article suggesting that the person has committed, or is accused of committing, a crime unless a conviction is secured." It therefore seems to me that the article should not contain statements about the specific allegations against the person in question, since, as far as I am aware, the only source saying that he did those things is the say-so of an unnamed student.
 * I see that the article's talk page contains specific statements about what is supposed to have been done, which are given in quotation marks, and accompanied by links to sources, which clearly implies that the quoted words are taken from one of the sources, but in fact neither of the sources says anything resembling the "quoted" text. That is clearly unacceptable, and I shall certainly redact that. It also seems likely that there is other content which should be removed form one or other of the article, its talk page, or the editing history of those pages. However, for now I will leave it at that, and wait to see whether anyone else has anything to say about exactly what needs doing. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 11:59, 26 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The following post was originally placed immediately after my statement "The edit summary does not state in detail what the allegations are, and I am not clear why merely mentioning that there have been allegations is problematic" above. I am moving it here to make it clear that my comments above were all one post. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 09:12, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The section heading added which was carried forward in edit summaries included the word "assault" until I changed it to "Controversy." I can't see anything reliable that supports allegations of assault. ''' Flat Out   let's discuss it  22:10, 26 February 2014 (UTC)


 * JamesBWatson, thanks for protectign the article and addressing the BLP violations, I tried a couple of times to get this done without success. I also note that the italics quotes you mention do not match what is said in the sources provided. I agree that the student allegations are not enough and it was on that basis I reverted the original article edit. The "current allegations" I alluded to are those maded on the talk page that allege an assault. My proposed edit is based on a report that that university found the subject had breached their sexual harassment code and that the subject was disciplined. I remain concerned that the edit summaries commencing with this one are a BLP violation. ''' Flat Out  let's discuss it  22:06, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Propose Close - given that none of the editors pushing to have the allegations included in the article have bothered to enter discussion, I propose the discussion be closed and the article protection amended to all edits by unconfirmed edits requiring review. ''' Flat Out  let's discuss it  00:46, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * There has now been over 48 hours since this section was started, and announced on the article's talk page. So far, apart from Flat Out, none of the participants in the talk page discussion there has chosen to comment here, but of course they are still welcome to do so. It is also 43 hours and some minutes since the article was protected, with a prominent notice inviting discussion on the talk page, but none of the participants in the earlier discussions has yet commented since then.
 * I have now revision-deleted violations of WP:BLP from both the article and the talk page. (Incidentally, in the course of checking, I found another, unrelated, BLP violation from much longer ago, and revision deleted that too.) Having considered what Flat Out has said above, I have decided that the comments referring to the nature of the "allegations", both in edit summaries and in the text of the talk page, can reasonably be regarded as BLP violations, so I have included those in the revision deletion.
 * I am here in my capacity as an administrator, not as an editor. I initially came to the article in response to a request for administrative action made at Requests for page protection, and I subsequently came to this discussion in response to a post on my talk page. I do not wish to get involved in the editing of the article, nor in discussions about how to do so, beyond the specific issue of dealing with violations of the policy on biographies of living persons. I will therefore express no opinion on the merits or otherwise of Flat Out's proposed addition to the article, beyond saying that it does seem to me to avoid the BLP problems that have been mentioned. I also suggest to Flat Out that it might be a good idea to post the proposal on the article's talk page, since there may well be editors who look at that page but don't follow the link to this discussion, and it would be advantageous to give them an opportunity to comment on the proposal. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 09:36, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Good suggestion. I've removed the full protection, and set "pending changes". For the moment I have set it to run for three months, but that could be reviewed. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 09:07, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Draft:Devyani Khobragade
Not necessarily a violation as such, just felt that people with experience in BLP might want to cast an eye over this one to ensure everything is appropriately neutral and fairly weighted. Draft:Devyani Khobragade --<font color="green" size="1px">nonsense <font color="BF1BE0" size="1px">ferret 21:52, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * We already have two wholly negative articles that involve this person, not sure why we need a biography as well. I hope that never makes it to article space. It's like a more advanced version of WP:BLP1E called BLP2E... § FreeRangeFrog croak 02:27, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It has now been published - Devyani Khobragade - I am not sure what to make of it all, I expect we've seen notorious serial killers with less unrelentingly negative coverage. Bit of a campaign, of sorts. --<font color="green" size="1px">nonsense <font color="BF1BE0" size="1px">ferret 08:16, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Herman Branover
The article on Herman Branover Herman Branover is a blantant misrepresentation.

The claims of status as an educator in the Jewish world, and the phrases "known in the scientific community", "pioneer" and "led to many spin-off...", are weasel words. There are no cites to support any of this, and it seems doubtful that any will be found.

The authors of the Wikipedia article want to create a myth around his scientific credentials to support his writings on religious subjects.

Indeed his writings on science and religion often grossly misrepresent scientific positions (for example see his book "Science in the Light of Torah"), and as a scientist, his h-index is modest at best (see Google Scholar).

I submit that after correcting the page to more accurately describe his work and writings, it should be locked against further edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.226.6 (talk) 05:59, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Certainly, this biography should be improved, as should a large percentage of our 4,461,942 articles. You can improve this article or any of those others at any time.Just click the "edit" button and get to work. Please explain why you believe that the problems with this particular article are so severe that it should be " locked against further edits". That is an extreme solution to what appears to me to be routine problems.  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328   Let's discuss it  07:10, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Curran_Stewart
Dear Wiki,

Please help me to resolve this issue:

On the page for Gordon Curran Stewart, the following warnings/disclaimers appear, all made in December 2013:

''This article contains wording that promotes the subject in a subjective manner without imparting real information. Please remove or replace such wording and instead of making proclamations about a subject's importance, use facts and attribution to demonstrate that importance. (December 2013''

''The neutrality of this article is disputed. Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (December 2013)''

''This article may require copy editing for grammar, style, cohesion, tone, or spelling. You can assist by editing it. (December 2013)''

Regarding subjectivity: I have read through the article and have removed a sentence that was subjective. Aside from that sentence I do not see anything else that could be deemed to "promote[] the subject in a subjective manner without imparting real information." Please, can you check the article and see if the corrections are sufficient and if they are then remove the warning from the top of the page? If the corrections are insufficient, then please let me know exactly what needs to be changed so that the appropriate edits can be made.

Regarding neutrality: It is not specified on the talk page what exactly is disputed. It says: "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libelous." The article was accepted onto Wiki as a result of an editing process that involved a requirement of neutrality. Certainly there is nothing on the page that can be considered to be "[u]nsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons". And there is nothing on the page that is potentially libelous. Is it possible to either learn more about the "dispute" so that it can be remedied, and if not then to remove the notice referring to a dispute?

Regarding copy editing: A small number of minor edits have been made, and the article now appears to no longer require copy editing. Please, can you remove the notice?

Many thanks... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wmdelamare (talk • contribs) 15:58, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


 * There seems to be rather a lot of content in that biography that has no reference --<font color="green" size="1px">nonsense <font color="BF1BE0" size="1px">ferret 18:51, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Don Mellett
There are absolutely no references at all on this bio, which contains considerable information implicating others in criminal activity. Seems to be eligible for deletion under WP:BLP1E. Unsure what to do about the article. I don't have the time or desire to research the event, but all the unreferenced negative info about living people seems to be a problem. John from Idegon (talk) 17:18, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Since the subject of the article dies in 1926, and the other people mentioned were presumably adults at that time, it is improbable that any living person is involved, so neither this page nor WP:BLP1E is relevant. However, if you wish to nominate the article for deletion as lacking evidence of notability, then go ahead. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 17:55, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm working to add sources. -- <font color="#FC3700">Auric  <font color="#0C0F00">talk  00:00, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Howard Stern
Hi, Someone as been making some questionable additions to Howard Stern's Talk Page. It does seem that these edits are simply intended to take shots a Stern and his wife. Similar edits were made to the Howard Stern itself, but the page was protected. Apparently this IP editor figured out that such protection does not extend to the article's talk page. Still fairly new at Wikipedia, so not sure what to do. If I'm asking in the wrong place about this, then apologies in advance. Maybe a more experienced editor or an admin can check it out? Thanks - Marchjuly (talk) 22:24, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reporting this. I warned the IP, next time I'll request a block. You can do so too at WP:AIV. § FreeRangeFrog croak 23:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It seemed like a pattern had been established, but I just wanted to hear what others thought. - Marchjuly (talk) 11:36, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Stern-related pages have been BLP nightmares for years. It's worth considering putting them all under pending changes level protection. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 14:27, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming
Murry Salby has just been added to this excuse for an article, the citation used for the contentious statement of fact is an opinion piece in the Guardian. I was under the impression that opinion pieces are not to be used for statements of fact on a BLP? Darkness Shines (talk) 14:46, 1 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Added a second reference to an article critiquing his anti-anthropogenic warming stance. I don't like the fact this list is even given the time of day on Wikipedia, but if it has to exist it might as well be accurate. Looks like Salby has earned his position on this particular wall of shame. Simonm223 (talk) 14:53, 1 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The list is full of such stuff -- I would note that the "volcano issue" was just raised by mainstream folks as a reason for why climate change has not proceeded on its projected course. And, IMHO, opinion pieces are not really suitable for making any claims of fact at all.    Guardian actual article. Collect (talk) 14:58, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._Peethambara_Kurup
The religion marked in the article as Pervertism is defamatory and politically motivated. Thanks for your time and attention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.202.173.195 (talk) 16:20, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Vandalism. It has been removed.-- <font color="#FC3700">Auric  <font color="#0C0F00">talk  22:58, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Mike Scott
I am acquainted with Mike Scott (musician) and he has sent me a concerned email about his own article and that of Camille O'Sullivan. His remarks are essentially that he feels his privacy is being violated as a result of recent edits by what seems to be the single-purpose account. I have amended both articles  but I am requesting more eyes/views on this as although I have been around the block I almost never edit BLPs and am not familiar with the relevant protocols. In essence Mr Scott is saying:
 * 1) I am not divorced.
 * 2) It is a matter of record that I recently became a parent.
 * 3) The name of the mother of the child is not  the public domain and speculation about this matter is a violation of his, the mother and his child’s privacy.

I have alerted the above user to this thread. I will also inform Mr. Scott about the revision deletion option above. Ben  Mac  Dui  16:22, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

António Janet
António Lopes Jonet competed at the 1952 Helsinki Olympic Games in Men's Modern Pentathlon. I tried to correct his name which is written with an "o" not "a", as it is in the wrongful source, but I wasn't successful. He is also not a living person, as he died in September 21, 2007. My sources are: http://www.geneall.net/P/per_page.php?id=578684 and I'm his grand-nephew. SakasFixe (talk) 20:07, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, this doesn't belong here: the talk page of the article would be more appropriate, possibly with a helpme tag to attract other editors. Nevertheless, I will comment on it here. The source you give suggests that there existed a person called "Antonio Cid Juzarte Lopes Jonet", born on the date stated in the Wikipedia article, and he may well have been the athlete in question, but the source doesn't say so. A Google search for "António Jonet" Olympics 1952 produces no hits at all, while "António Janet" Olympics 1952 produces 132 hits, but none of those that I have checked looks like a reliable source. Can you provide a reliable source that says that his name was Jonet and that he competed in the 1952 Olympic Games? The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 23:18, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Google searches for "António Janet" Jogos Olímpicos 1952 and for "António Jonet" Jogos Olímpicos 1952 are no more helpful, and Portuguese Wikipedia does not have an article about him as either Janet or Jonet, with or without the "Lopes". The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 23:26, 1 March 2014 (UTC)


 * In the absence of reliable sources for either name, I have made a judgement that on balance Jonet is more likely, so I have moved the article. However, a really reliable source one way or the other would be appreciated. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 09:34, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejandra_Bravo
Dear Sirs, I would like to respectfully ask that the Wikipedia web page about Alejandra Bravo would be completely eliminated. During part of 2012 and all 2013 year this page has posted biased information, without hard evidence about myself. This page has had multiple changes by people who clearly seek to discredit me and which have severely harmed my public image. This page contain poorly sourced material, with libelous potentially intentions. Most of the comments have been based on materials that were published in Mexican newspapers with information out of context, resulting defamatory. Wikipedia pages should not mislead the reader into believing that something false is real. In addition Wikipedia is not a forum for discussions, it is an encyclopedia and therefore the information described on the Alejandra Bravo’s page does not correspond to encyclopedic information.

If you want specific information on the incorporated slurs, I can mention some examples: 1. In the Wikipedia page Alejandra Bravo in Spanish said: “En septiembre de 2012 un grupo de investigadores publicó una revisión crítica sobre los modelos de acción de los insecticidas de Bacillus thuringiensis en el cual se concluía que los modelos mexicanos no eran replicables, basándose en el análisis de once publicaciones de Alejandra Bravo y su esposo Mario Soberón.4” (In September 2012 a group of researchers published a critical review of the models of action of Bacillus thuringiensis insecticides in which they concluded that Mexicans model was not replicable, based on the analysis of eleven publications of Alejandra Bravo and her husband Mario Soberón.4 ").  	Reference 4 (Vachont, Vincent ; Laprade , Reynald , Schwartz, Jean -Louis (2012 ) ' Current models of the mode of action of Bacillus thuringiensis insecticidal crystal proteins : A critical review "( in English ) Science Direct Accessed . . February 15, 2014), does not mention anywhere that the data on Bravo and Soberon were not reproducible. Similarly, it did not mention at all that eleven publications under authorship of these Mexican researchers were questionable. So this whole paragraph is a defamation that used a scientific article, that is solid, to support their false arguments. This paragraph is misleading real information it is a tort of false light.

2. In the Wikipedia page in Spanish said that " ... Debido a esto ambos científicos fueron separados de sus cargos, …” (Because of this both scientists were removed from their positions). Bravo and Soberon were never separated from their university positions; they are professors, senior researchers at the Institute of Biotechnology, UNAM. This statement was a lie published in the newspaper La Jornada. You mentioned that you will be very firm about the use of high-quality sources. A newspaper publication should not be taken as a reliable source of facts, especially if they were not true. This is also a clear defamation to Bravo and Soberon status.

3. The conclusion of the evaluation committee mentioned in Wikipedia are not correct. Again misleading information, presenting written statements out of context, completely biased, are damaging the researchers. The main conclusion of the commission was that the modifications of the figures did not change at all the scientific content of these publications and for this reason they did not recommended to remove any publication.

4. In the Wikipedia page in Spanish it states that "… También trascendió que los científicos habían aceptado su error, comunicándose con los editores de las revistas de aquellas publicaciones afectadas, quienes no pidieron correcciones o fe de erratas.4…” (... It was also learned that scientists had accepted his mistake by contacting the publishers of the journals of the affected publications, who did asked corrections.4). Bravo and Soberon sent corrections to their publications for " Motus propio" without anyone 's asked which were accepted by the journals. No retraction was done. This was reported by the La Jornada newspaper but did not take into account for the Wikipedia editors even thought that this newspaper has been the main source of information from this Wikipedia page. Ref: http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2013/04/16/ciencias/a03n1cie

5. The Wikipedia page in Spanish states "…por el hecho de haber «manipulado» las imágenes en 2 de las publicaciones. El caso llamó la atención de la Oficina de Integridad Científica (ORI) de los Institutos Nacionales de Salud de Estados Unidos (NIH), la cual revisó los hechos…”( ... the fact of having" manipulated " images in 2 publications. The case caught the attention of the Office of Scientific Integrity (ORI ) of the [ [National Institutes of Health (USA) | National Institutes of Health in the United States ] ] (NIH ), which reviewed the facts ... " This is another slanderous lie that has caused a lot of damage. ORI 's office did not review the case because the manipulation of images of two articles caught their attention. ORI review the case because the accused researchers had an active grant from the NIH. The ORI is responsible for monitoring complaints of misconduct in biomedical research projects that receive support from agencies related to public health services in USA. The final ORI 's report concludes that Bravo and Soberon researchers at the Institute of Biotechnology, National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM) did not commit misconduct. They did not suspend the financial support that NHI gives to Bravo and Soberon. This was reported by La Jornada and by the Mexican Academy of Sciences: http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2013/04/16/ciencias/a03n1cie http://www.comunicacion.amc.edu.mx/comunicados/concluye-la-ori-que-mario-soberon-y-alejandra-bravo-no-incurrieron-en-falta/

6. The description of the actions of the University Rights Ombudsman was incorrect. The UNAM-University Rights Ombudsman (DDU), determined to initiate an investigation for possible effects on rights of Dr. Alejandra Bravo and Dr. Mario Soberon. Advocacy recommended terminating the sanctions given the large number of violations of rights of these university researchers. The authorities involved accepted the recommendation of DDU and researchers can receive students and recovered their academic leadership of research groups at Biotechnology Institute of UNAM. This case was closed, researchers since both researchers showed that they did not commit any scientific fraud to the university authorities, to authorities ORI NHI, and to the scientific journals. Even more, it was published recently a scientific paper in the journal Biochemical Journal in which Bravo and Soberon showed experimental scientific evidence demonstrating that the model of the mechanism of action of Cry toxins that they propose remains valid.

Finally it is important to mention that the same Mexicans newspapers that actively participated in this case publishing erroneous information also reported that communications in the newspapers contribute to generate an important public image damage of Bravo and Soberon, as well as harm their reputation and prestige as scientists.

The newspaper La Jornada reported that “A partir de la intervención de la Defensoría se trata de un caso cerrado, pero que produjo un gran daño a dos científicos mexicanos” (From the intervention of the Ombudsman is a close case, but that resulted in severe damage to two scientists" Ref: http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2013/10/15/index.php?section=ciencias&article=a03a1cie&partner=rss

http://www.comunicacion.amc.edu.mx/comunicados/concluye-en-la-unam-caso-de-alejandra-bravo-y-mario-soberon/

Finally the ex-rector of UNAM Dr. Juan Ramon de la Fuente wrote about the participation DDU-UNAM and said “Sobresale la UNAM, por supuesto, que supo poner en juego las fortalezas de la ciencia, para eviitar que dos de los mejores investigadores de los que Mexico dispone, Alejandra Bravo y Mario Soberón, vieran truncadas sus carreras, victimas de una suspicacia excesiva y de esa terrible distorcion vital que experimentan algunos ante el exito de otros: la envidia.” (The UNAM excels, of course, who knew how to bring into play the strengths of science, for stop that two of the best researchers of Mexico, Alejandra Bravo and Mario Soberon, saw their careers cut short, victims of excessive suspicion and a terrible vital distortion that some people experienced in front of the success of others: the envy. Ref: http://www.eluniversalmas.com.mx/editoriales/2013/10/66876.php

For all the above reasons, I suggest and request that the Wikipedia Alejandra Bravo’s page will be removed completely. A severe damage has been done and since the case is closed, all arguments must stop immediately. You mentioned that Contentious material about living persons that is poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Then I just ask that to keep your word and make it true. Attentively, Alejandra Bravo

--Yocize2 (talk) 21:02, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

You will have to take the matter up on Spanish Wikipedia. Unfortunately, I have no experience of using or editing Spanish Wikipedia, so I can't tell you how to go about raising the issue there. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 22:31, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * We've also got an article on the person here and Yocize2 removed a sizeable chunk related to a controversy here. <b style="color:darkred;">Ravensfire</b> ( talk ) 22:52, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw that after making the above post, and was writing a corrected version of my post when you edit-conflicted me. Here is the corrected version:


 * You appear to be concerned about an article on Spanish Wikipedia, but this is English Wikipedia, and we have no jurisdiction over Spanish Wikipedia. You will have to take the matter up on Spanish Wikipedia. As far as the English Wikipedia article is concerned, I see that you have removed all mention of the incident, rather than adjusting it to give a more balanced account. If my understanding is correct, it is accepted that you did falsify images, but it was decided that the sanctions taken against you were excessive, in which case it is not obvious why all mention of the incident should be suppressed. In any case, the fact that you believe that the account given of this one incident has been misleading is scarcely adequate reason to delete the whole article. (I also see that you are currently blocked on Spanish Wikipedia for repeatedly removing content from an article.) The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 22:57, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Erik Prince
I'd like a quick sanity check on Erik Prince. While the sources seem to check out, the tone is venomous. It's more a matter of neutral point of view and whether it's meaningful for the article. The subject of the article is a magnet for attacks due to his role in creating Blackwater, and I presume that's the reason the defamatory material was added. I've previously reverted uncited claims of sexual rumors, including a claim of a homosexual affair. With these recent additions, I'm not sure where to draw the line. Thanks, Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 06:51, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I have removed it all, pending a balanced rewrite that does not put massively undue weight on that part of his life. A mention of the fact that he had an affair might, maybe be proper, but three extensive blockquotes is inappropriate in the extreme. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:59, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I appreciate the independent review. Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 22:21, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Trinity St. Clair/Articles for deletion/Trinity St. Clair
I'm bothered by the extent to which the desire to keep this article about an otherwise non-notable porn performer has led to increasingly detailed COATRACKing of articles related to a notable, but not widely known to the public, movie industry figure. Even though the key elements of the associated scandal have never been reliably confirmed as factual (although a very plausible case has been established). In the nine months or so since the scandal broke, the (sex-related) details of the scandal were excluded from the article on the notable studio executive, with BLP issues raised -- but over the last few weeks editors pushing to keep this porn performer article have been adding reported (but never quite confirmed) details of the scandal to various BLPs (usually with the never-quite-confirmed details presented as established facts.) I believe the longstanding treatment of the matter was more sensitive to BLP policy principles and more appropriate, and that those concerns should not be outweighed by the desire to keep articles about the porn performers involved. Further scrutiny would be appreciated. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 14:38, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Sudhir Choudhrie
I'm surprised that we got nothing on Sudhir Choudhrie. Was a previous article deleted or is he simply not notable?


 * http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2559367/Lib-Dem-donor-gave-Clegg-500-000-arrested-multi-million-Rolls-Royce-corruption-probe.html
 * http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Sudhir-Choudhrie-High-flying-arms-dealer-may-finally-be-grounded/articleshow/31300678.cms
 * http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304703804579382912304294786

Etc. Hcobb (talk) 21:29, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * There's no sign of a previous article. I doubt it would get deleted if you created one.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:34, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Mary Tyler Moore
I have tried more than once to change wording in the lede of this article to read non-POV and to not give analysis of Moore's acting career. I've been reverted each time. Edits are here:, ; , , , , ,. Requesting new eyes on this and comments that address the edits I've tried to make as well as the reversions happening each time I attempt to make the edits. Of course, I believe the version I changed it to is better than the article status quo, otherwise I wouldn't be changing it. Thanks in advance. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 04:39, 21 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't see this as a WP:BLP issue; it appears to be a simple content dispute, and you appear to be edit-warring and need to stop and get consensus on the talk page. Recommend closing this thread here as it's not a BLPN issue. (By the way in point of fact MTM's role, casting, and acting in Ordinary People was astonishly different from anything she'd ever done before, so much so that no one could even immediately understand why Redford cast her. It merits being mentioned in the lede, although talk page consensus should be ascertained wither way.) Softlavender (talk) 04:51, 21 October 2015 (UTC)


 * 1 - It's a BLP article where there is a content dispute. I don't see how a content issue at a BLP isn't a BLP issue.  2 - Obviously, I'm not edit warring there any more than anyone else, but you blame me alone for edit warring?  How very biased of you, .  3 - Yes, her acting in Ordinary People was quite different than anything else she had done before, however, to include that in Wikipedia-voice is inappropriate.  If it's in the article, it needs to be attributed to a reliable source, not Wikipedia.  Wikipedia isn't a movie review site nor is it an actor's fan site where such analysis would be appropriate.  In an encyclopedia, not appropriate unless it's in quote form or prose form coming from the voice of a reviewer/reputable source.  -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  05:11, 21 October 2015 (UTC)


 * "This page is for reporting issues regarding biographies of living persons. Generally this means cases where editors are repeatedly adding defamatory or libelous material to articles about living people over an extended period." What you have here is a simple content dispute, nothing whatsoever defamatory or libelous. Resolve the simple non-controversial, non-libelous, non-defamatory content dispute on the article's talk page, and if necessary avail yourself of WP:DR methods. Do not edit war, and do not bring simple non-controversial content disputes to the WP:BLPN. You are edit warring: You made a substantive removal from the status quo and instead of observing WP:BRD when it was replaced you are edit warring with two other editors to keep your removal out rather than retaining the status quo ante prior to obtaining consensus that it should be removed. If you want a citation on something add a CN tag; don't remove it. -- Softlavender (talk)


 * Fine, perhaps I came to the wrong noticeboard - that will be righted later. Being at the wrong noticeboard doesn't change the fact that the article lede contains non-encyclopedic and POV wording.  The other fact is the edit warring flag you are flying is inconsequential in light of that POV and inappropriate wording.  And any edit warring happening there certainly is not one-sided.  No edit warring ever is.  -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  06:02, 21 October 2015 (UTC)


 * The lede contains a clear neutral statement of fact which even you agreed is factual. No noticeboard at all is necessary for this issue, simply a talk-page discussion if you still take issue with the lede, or a CN tag if you want citations (but if the material is discussed and cited in the body text it does not have to also be cited in the lede). And the two other editors were simply restoring the longterm status quo ante per WP:BRD. Softlavender (talk) 06:13, 21 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Maybe one of them. The other is exercising article ownership and has been doing so there for a while now.  And I didn't admit anything.  -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  13:34, 21 October 2015 (UTC)


 * You wrote above: "Yes, her acting in Ordinary People was quite different than anything else she had done before". You were edit-warring to remove a fact that you yourself admit was accurate, and failing to observe WP:BLP. -- Softlavender (talk) 06:37, 22 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Agreeing with the statement doesn't mean I think it should be in the lede or the article in Wiki-voice.