Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive196

Anjem Choudary
Input is needed, and would be greatly appreciated. I've made two revisions on Anjem Choudary which were reverted by User:Parrot of Doom and User:Bencherlite. You can read the exchanges on Anjem Choudary (Talk). I know better than to get into an edit war, so I did not intentionally change anything after the reverts were made by the two editors mentioned. I remained neutral, maintained an open-mind, and started a discussion on Choudary Talk. I visited the revision history to review and compare the differences between edits in an attempt to understand the reasoning behind their decision. For reasons unbeknownst to me, clicking on cur or prev inadvertently triggered reverts, even though I never used the undo or restore command. Hopefully someone can explain why it is happening because the inadvertent reverts have escalated into vandalism notices, and later into page protection by Admin Darkwind. In fact, it happened to me again today on Darkwind's talk page, of all places, so I sent him an email explaining what happened. Could it be something Safari is causing? Whatever it is, I hope someone can provide an answer.

Back on topic - my revisions for Choudary can be seen here. I edited only the first three paragraphs of the article. The rest remains in tact. Back in January 2014 on Choudary Talk, User:66.225.160.9 recommended updating the article to include mention of Choudary's interview on BBC Radio 4 in the wake of the 'Lee Rigby' trial. No updates were made until my recent attempt to include mention of the connection between one of the murderers of Lee Rigby, and Al-Muhajiroun, a terrorist organization that was co-founded by Choudary. That part of the revision was omitted along with everything else in my edit. I was under the impression editors were supposed to collaborate, not WP:OWN, and prevent anyone else from editing or updating it, especially important updates. Unfortunately, that isn't the case with Choudary which is why I brought it here for discussion. There is an obvious POV/omission issue that needs to be resolved. To date, three editors are in agreement that Choudary needs review, including myself, Sportfan5000, and Coretheapple.

I also felt it was necessary to bring awareness to other POV/omissions in other bios and organizations of the same genre in hopes of finding common ground, and possibly even a standard that editors can easily follow. Admin DougWeller suggested bringing my concerns here. The common denominator for my examples are Islamism, Sharia, Islamophobia, terrorists, and extremists. I'll start with Pamela Geller who is portrayed in Wiki as being known "primarily for her criticism of Islamism and opposition to Islamic activities and causes.". That statement is only partially true, and there is no balance to the article whatsoever - no mention of the awards, or commendations Geller has received for her work. It goes on to say that her viewpoints are described as "anti-Islamic or Islamophobic" which is clearly POV, and not the result of a doctor's diagnosis of a "phobia", so whoever described her viewpoints are guilty of POV themselves. The lead-in further portrays her as a co-founder of organizations that were labeled as "hate groups by UK government officials". A "hate group" label is clearly a POV issue, and in no way portrays actual events, or self-proclamation. What would happen if one of the groups Choudary founded was labeled as a "hate group"? There is no mention of opposing views showing that Geller's organizations were given recognition and awards for their efforts in the U.S. Rather than go into lengthy detail, I hope editors will take the time to read the following, and provide input.

Please compare the editing of Pamela Geller vs Anjem Choudary vs Steven Emerson. Please do the same for SIOA vs Al-Muhajiroun vs Investigative Project on Terrorism.

Please pay attention to the "Series On Islamophobia" as noted in the SIOA article. Is there a similar series on Islamist Extremism showing a network of known terrorist organizations and offshoots of those organizations that were banned from the U.K., including al-Muhajiroun, Al Ghurabaa, Islam4UK, and the list goes on, all of which were either founded or presided over by Choudary?

I look forward to reading the responses. Thank you in advance… Ms Atsme (talk) 03:30, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


 * If this isn't forum shopping is very close to it. There's an open RFC. To me bringing this here while another process is going is dubious.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 22:51, 1 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Serialjoepsycho Sorry for the "dubiousity" - it wasn't intentional, and there's no forum shopping going on. If I'm going forum shopping, it's going to be at Forum Mall, and will involve the purchase of new shoes, and a dress.   Did you not see the notice of the move to BLP-N dated Feb 28th?  It's near the bottom of Choudary Talk.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atsme (talk • contribs) 01:50, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I did see where you moved it. That's how I got here. I also see where you didn't take part in it even though where involved in the debate prior to that. While it may not be Forum shopping per se it seems it is in spirit.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 03:01, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * You should add all of the articles and the issues that you have that you think violate BPL seperately. As for Anjem Choudary I suggest you ignore the inflamatory comments for a moment and read what else is being said. You proposed changes would violate BLP. You labeling this individual "Extreme" is certainly not NPOV. You use a number of sources that are in noway reliable. The Globe Mail is a tabloid. WP:BLPSOURCES Material should not be added when the only source is a tabloid. They are completely justified in their revisions. Take stock in what they have said on the talk page. Your professional carreer as a writer doesn't offer you any stature over those other editors. If really seems you are aiming at ownership with those comments. I would you go back to the talk page and propose those changes when you have reliable sources. I would also recommend you be careful in the language you use when editing. You may feel this individual is an extremist as may your source. Y'all have the right to your opinion. Wikipedia however does not have an opinion. It is nuetral. I'm going close this.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 11:41, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Cesar Milan - the Dog Whisperer
is a famous dog trainer but with controversial methods. This has affected the article for years. Yesterday two sections were removed from the criticism section (now retitled controversy). One section, criticising his methods and his show the Dog Whisperer, was removed with the edit summary "this belongs in Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan, not this BLP". I don't understand this as it was about both the show and his methods. A second section about a campaign against these methods backed by a number of well known organisations such as the RSPCA, Dogs Trust, The World Society for the Protection of Animals, " Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour was removed with an edit summary that it was not a reliable source.. I replaced it as I strongly disagree that it is not a reliable source for the campaign and the views of the sponsoring organisation, and it's been removed again. Here is the press release and here is a page about the sponsoring organisations. User:Dreadstar has brought this up on the talk page, asking if it is an organisation known for fact checking, etc. I don't think that's the point here. The edit itself says "In March 2010, various preeminent UK animal welfare, behaviour, training, canine and veterinary organisations issued a joint statement in which they warned against the dog training techniques used by Cesar Milan: "The organisations believe that the use of such training techniques is not only unacceptable from a welfare perspective, but that this type of approach is not necessary for the modification of dog behaviour." I see no reason to think that the website is not telling the truth about this. I also think that the other paragraph that was removed should be in both articles as it is about his methods. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 05:56, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No comments, so taking this to RSN. Anyone still interested please respond there. Dougweller (talk) 05:52, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Lupita Nyong'o
Ignoring the obnoxious edit-wars the article currently presents, there's a BLP issue right here. IP, aka are saying that Nyong'o is not Mexican, as being born in a country does not necessarily gives a nationality to a person. The evidence the IP editor gives is CNN en Español (link). In the interview, Lupita allegedly said "Mexico was very strange to me, coming from Kenya, but I found such friendly people and fell in love with the food, to this day, I love eating steak tacos before going to the red carpets.” she also states she made friends in Mexico when she went there to study Spanish “I still have a lot of friends [in Mexico] and I hope to go there soon." I speak Spanish, and nowhere in that video interview or the article's text Nyong'o says this, she talks about her Oscar nomination for her performance at 12 Years a Slave. There are two videos, my mistake. The problem is this IPs are saying that as she never said to CNN she is Mexican and Kenyan, it is therefore false. Despite the fact already presented Nyong'o said "Ojalá que me nominen, sería genial, y si me lo gano, garantizo que diré que soy orgullosamente mexicana" ("I hope I was nominated, it would be great, and if I win it, I'll say that I'm proudly Mexican"). Also she said (same interview, but full) [http://entretenimiento.terra.com.mx/cine/actriz-de-12-years-a-slave-presume-orgullo-mexicano,741bce2e04ef0410VgnVCM5000009ccceb0aRCRD.html "Nací en la Ciudad de México, y antes de cumplir un año me llevaron a Kenia, donde crecí. Mi padre tuvo un trabajo (como diplomático y profesor) allí, y por eso mi acta de nacimiento dice que soy mexicana, tengo ambas nacionalidades..." ("I was born in Mexico City, and before I was one-year old [my parents] took me to Kenya, where I grew up. My father had a job (as diplomatic and professor) there, and that's why my birth certificate says I'm mexican, I have both nationalities)..."].

There is a current case at ANI, and a report at AN3. The problem is Nyong'o's page has been a constant target of edit-war by this IP editor falsifying a direct quote, vandalism, and as Nyong'o won the Oscar minutes ago, updates by other users. This article needs more eyes. ©  Tb hotch ™ (en-2.5). 03:46, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Mufaddal Saifuddin
This page has been constantly edited by User:Summichum"(cur | prev) 10:57, 2 March 2014‎ Summichum (talk | contribs)‎ . . (9,222 bytes) (+326)‎ . . (assasination attempts by burhani guards controlled by mufadal)" and User:Ftutocdg. they are adding information that are libelous and sourced from forums"(cur | prev) 15:25, 28 February 2014‎ Smtchahal (talk | contribs)‎ . . (8,825 bytes) (-326)‎ . . (→‎Involvement in Illegal Hunting of Wildlife: change.org petitions can be signed by literally anyone; using one of these I could add defamatory content about anyone. Something like a newspaper or magazine publication makes for a better WP:RS)" . they are using it as a propaganda against the said person. they contantly delete any information added by any other person citing valid references.Mufaddalqn (talk) 06:20, 3 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Regarding change.org then it was reconciled long back as I did not know about it, but I would say that many users are adding unsourced and partisan source information in that article. The above user had tried many times to remove the claimant position and is taking the side of one of the disputants namely Mufaddal. The succession controversy characterizes Mufaddal hence partisan sources from his own site regarding controversy are not reliable.Summichum (talk) 06:55, 3 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't think this should be closed just yet. There are floods of users adding unsourced or poorly sourced information regarding the succession controversy, or removing sourced content in this article. I've frankly given up, as I can't stop them all and stay within 3RR. Here's one removing that he is a claimant, addition of poorly referenced claims to support a political position. This article needs, at least, semi-protection, and should be rewritten entirely by a competent editor capable of using grammatical English. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:20, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I Agree. The article is constantly being used as propaganda. This Article should be written maintaining Wikipedia standards.Mufaddalqn (talk) 10:41, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Names in Templates
I came across a situation today that has me wondering. There is a template, Kurdish–Turkish conflict and maybe others, that list names of supposedly living people as insurgents. Names are redlinked, and in the case of Hüseyin Yıldırım (insurgent) is not discussed in any article in the encyclopedia. So we are now calling Hüseyin Yıldırım an insurgent without any sources at all. I take responsibility for changing the template link to include the (insurgent) dab but the name was there and linked prior to that action. Should a template include names of possible living people and call them insurgents without any references to verify this? GB fan 13:56, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Use of any reference to any living persons in any space falls under WP:BLP and I suspect that a redlinked claim is not going to have a strong reliable source backing it. I would tend to think that labeling a person an "insurgent" is intrinsically a "contentious claim." Collect (talk) 14:24, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I have removed all the redlinks from the insurgent section of the template. GB fan 14:41, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Kathy Castor
[(Kathy Castor)]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Castor

Information under U.S. House of Representatives has been removed three times since 02/14/2014 and one of the users who removed this information cited copyright violation. Information originally posted under U.S. House of Representatives is from the biography page of castor.house.gov, and according to the Biographies of Living Persons Wikipedia policy, "Living persons may publish material about themselves, such as through press releases or personal websites ... "

These are the usernames that have removed the referenced information: HangingCurve, Bgwhite and Ronhjones.

I would appreciate your attention to this matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.231.249.137 (talk) 16:39, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Your understanding of WP:BLPSELFPUB might be incomplete; there are a number of conditions for use. In addition, anything added here cannot violate WP:COPYVIO. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:52, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

if you add content from another local that is cool only you must rewrite it to avoid copyright problems - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:COPYVIO - Mosfetfaser (talk) 20:51, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Jake Maymudes
Any Bob Dylan fans feel like adding to this biography? I've referenced two articles regarding a book he's authoring. I'm too much of a noob to figure out the wiki syntax. -st — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snaketown (talk • contribs) 18:51, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Michael Grimm (politician)
Has an extended section with a single source in the BLP
 * In 2011, The New Yorker magazine reported that Grimm had been the subject of an internal investigation into allegations he abused his authority as a FBI agent in a nightclub in 1999. According to the article,[4] written by Evan Ratliff, the incident resulted from a dispute between Grimm and his date's husband. A former NYPD officer working as a bouncer at the time said that Grimm remarked about the husband, "I’ll fucking make him disappear where nobody will find him." Grimm reportedly then returned to the nightclub twice, pulled out his gun once, and brought FBI and NYPD officers the second time. Grimm said the article was written by a reporter "on a witch hunt" and that "this incident was fully investigated and I was cleared of all of the ridiculous and absurd allegations. To further entertain this partisan attack on my exemplary career and service to this great nation would be to give [the allegation] credence, of which it deserves none." The New York Police Department and U.S. Justice Department have refused to release documents regarding the incident.[5][6][7] Ratliff subsequently released additional material corroborating his article.[8

All of which is sourced to one "investigative article" and the rest to a press release from a political opponent in a campaign which basically says Grimm should waive his Constitutional rights and have sealed documents made public. There is no "outside RS" provided, and while the event might warrant a sentence, the weight in the BLP is WP:UNDUE to say the least, and stresses a "fucking" quotation which has only the single source - the main accusation and demand that he release the sealed documents seems to be a political campaign issue raised by DeBlasio, and not actually reaching other reliable sources. Ratliff, byy the way, did not give anything substantive "corroborating" the incident. (yep -- reading sources sometimes shows them being overstated in articles, alas)  So the questions are -- is the section coverage UNDUE? Does it contain material not strongly sourced to reliable sources? Is the reporting in the BLP in any way campaignish? Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:02, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The New Yorker is an excellent source. Grimm's quoted rebuttal is longer than the quotation giving Grimm's original remark, so I don't think there's any problem with balance here (I wouldn't want to reduce the former -- would you??).  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:09, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * And it is worth the length and weight given thereto?   Note that it is the sole source for the claims made. Collect (talk) 15:15, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Posit this:
 * In 2011, Evan Ratliff in a The New Yorker magazine article said Grimm had been the subject of an internal investigation into allegations he abused his authority as a FBI agent in a nightclub in 1999.  The allegation centered on a dispute between Grimm and his date's husband.   After leaving, Grimm reportedly re-entered the bar with FBI and NYPD officers.  Grimm dismissed the story as a "witch hunt" and that "this incident was fully investigated and I was cleared of all of the ridiculous and absurd allegations." ''

Which covers the allegation and denial, and avoids the weird bit that agencies which can not release the sealed material did not release what they legally could not release. I suggest this is NPOV and gives sufficient and proper weight to the allegation and denial. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:22, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait, you want to quote from Grimm's rebuttal but not from his original outburst? That's odd.  From what you write above and from the way you posted about the other quotation where he said "fucking", I get the sense you don't like "fucking" very much.  In any event, I don't understand the objection to quoting from what he said (as reported in a perfectly reliable source), particularly if you want to quote his rebuttal.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:13, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

The "reliable source" makes a contentious claim not found in any other source ... his response is found in several RS sources. But to be fair then:
 * In 2011, Evan Ratliff in a The New Yorker magazine article said Grimm had been the subject of an internal investigation into allegations he abused his authority as a FBI agent in a nightclub in 1999.  The allegation centered on a dispute between Grimm and his date's husband.   After leaving, Grimm reportedly re-entered the bar with FBI and NYPD officers.  Grimm dismissed the story as a witch hunt.

Which should fully meet your position that we ought not give too long a quote from Grimm. And yes when only one source says "fucking" that is a contentious claim. I am sure you would not want to possibly use a single source for a contentious claim, right? Collect (talk) 17:02, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Why is "fucking" a contentious claim? Does Grimm deny saying it?  He seems not to have a problem with the word.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:19, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The claim is found in a single source only -- and I consider the word to be of no actual encyclopedic value here -- do you find emphasizing fucking in BLPs to be a mark of great biographical writing? Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:37, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm only saying that I don't find your argument persuasive. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:40, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Pray tell -- what does fucking add to the BLP section under discussion? The section is surely not about his vocabulary but about the incident of him bringing in NYPD and FBI agents to the bar -- and does the word fucking really affect the incident and the lack of any charges being bought.   If a random person said say fucking would it be right to add fucking to each topic related to that person, or is fucking possibly there to simply reinforce the position that - totally unrelated to the section topic at hand --- the person can say fucking at times?  If the latter, than the use of it is "fucking awful".  Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:46, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Why do you only talk about the "fucking"? - what is about the "I’ll ... make him disappear where nobody will find him." part? Your edits regarding Grimm a clearly not NPOV


 * BBC: "You ever do that to me again I'll throw you off this [expletive] balcony." - for example. --IIIraute (talk) 19:23, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * In case you did not know it, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid, gossip sheet, or newspaper. The issue is whether the material is of biographical value in the BLP, and whether it is presented with proper weight in the BLP.  If you feel the salient and important issue is expletives, I suggest you seek to rewrite WP:BLP which is the governing policy.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:17, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * No no -- Illraute is not talking about expletives, he's proposed a way to convey the information by bypassing the expletive (which is fine with me). Instead of offering a condescending lecture, I suggest you engage with his proposal.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:31, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that is the best summary and also that it should be sourced to one of the papers reporting the New Yorker story. I question though whether it is important enough to include, since the fact only a few local papers picked up on the magazine story shows it probably is insignificant.  A member of the public complained about a police officer, but we do not know whether it was credible and the policeman's employers took no action against him following their investigation, and it was not reported at the time.  There is nothing significant about that.  TFD (talk) 17:50, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I disagree with removing that edit from the page, I further disagree with removing it under "BLP". The edit it sourced, reliably, the edit is a notable event and it was being reported just as the reliable source reported it.  There was no reason to remove it.   As it's not a BLP issue, it should be put back in per consensus on the talk page (which already exists )  KoshVorlon . We are all Kosh   20:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I object strongly to the political sanitization of this biography. The news event in question was not an "interview," the news event in question was an on-camera threat delivered by the Congressman, the text of which has been documented by the New York Times and elsewhere. That the editing disagreement has been locked down in sanitized state by Administrator User:John is an utterly reprehensible example of administrative tool abuse. That he refuses to undo his abusive action is appalling. It's pretty clear that tools do not belong in some hands, and I would include this administrator on that list. Carrite (talk) 02:36, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Nobody cares whether the text has been documented. The problem isn't that nobody believes he said it, the problem is that it's not important enough to include. Ken Arromdee (talk) 05:42, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * That's a matter of editorial judgment. It isn't a BLP violation (unsourced/poorly sourced), and so it isn't a situation where an admin can use the tools to enforce his preferred version.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 06:37, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with Carrite, Nomoskedasticity and KoshVorlon. The incident received worldwide news coverage - more than enough reliable secondary sources are available → WP:RS, such as: Reuters, Germany: Süddeutsche Zeitung, Die Zeit, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, United Kingdom: BBC, The Guardian, France: Le Figaro, Spain: El País, Italy: la Repubblica, Austria: Die Presse, Canada: The Globe and Mail, Australia: The Australian, Israel: The Times of Israel, Brazil: O Globo, etc. --IIIraute (talk) 01:57, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Robert D. Scinto
Robert D. Scinto started out as technically an autobio, although I assume its just a person acting on behalf of subject. It could benefit from being shortened in regards to details, have some of the overtly positive appraisal worded more neutrally, and especially having his prison sentence in a corruption case neutrally mentioned. Sources are there, but as it stands now you almost get the impression that he was unfairly treated. In all fairness it should be said that, judging from the sources, subject has done nice things for his community. Best, Sam Sailor Sing 16:08, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Tipu Aziz
In the article about Tipu Aziz it says in the first paragraph:

"Tipu Zahed Aziz (born 1956)" which is in contrary to the infobox, where it says:

"Born	1966 (age 47–48) East Pakistan (now Bangladesh)"

I can't find any reliable information about his age. If anybody does know his real age, please feel free to edit. Rosannn (talk) 23:06, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The change was made by an IP address from Oxford University claiming to be Tipu Aziz. Since no reliable source was found, I have removed both dates from the article. Ajaxfiore (talk) 19:19, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Indy_Selvarajah
Notability

This article is misleading, It states that he has created a comedy series for channel 4 UK, yet it was a short pilot, shown once on channel4's experimental comedy lab. The references and praise refer to the "Comedy Lab" show itself & not the segment produced by Mr Selvarajah

Other than this I cant find anything else notable to hang an entire article off for this person.

His IMDB lists one credit as a writer/actor, one episode.

His page also mentions advertising awards and yet I find zero references to this on alengthy google search — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.248.174 (talk) 17:48, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think notability concerns are dealt with here. I have nominated the article for deletion (Articles for deletion/Indy Selvarajah, editors will decide whether the article is deleted or not. Ajaxfiore (talk) 23:29, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Calling someone a child molester
It is pure coincidence that I'm on ANI again, but with User:BlueSalix reverting and insisting on calling someone a "child molester" who has never been charged let alone convicted of this extremely heinous crime, it seemed serious enough to warrant an immediate admin look-see. Additionally, the person he's citing never used the phrase "child molester," a label that implies a continuing pattern.


 * It is an ad-hominem attack to claim User:BlueSalix is insisting on calling someone a child molester. The issue is whether the statement made is true, well sourced, consistent with the source, notable, relevant and consistent with WP practices.  It has nothing to do with User:BlueSalix and it is wrong to focus the argument this way.Bob the goodwin (talk) 23:57, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I just thought before Wikipedia gives its imprimatur to a "child molester" claim against someone who is innocent in the eyes of the law, more eyes ought to look at this. ,. At the very least, we shouldn't call someone a child molester without talk-page consensus. --Tenebrae (talk) 5:14 pm, Today (UTC−5)


 * It might be better to quote the exact words, which according to at least one news report were "Missed the Woody Allen tribute — did they put the part where a woman publicly confirmed he molested her at age 7 before or after Annie Hall?" (see http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv-movies/ronan-farrow-takes-shot-woody-allen-tribute-article-1.1577594#ixzz2uqeBpO6O). Assuming that this quote is accurate -- and I rather suspect it is, although a 2nd source would be good in view of the serious nature of the comment -- then I don't find paraphrasing that as "Farrow called Allen a child molester" out of line. A molester can be anyone who has molested a child at least once, it need not imply a repeated pattern. In any case, edit warring over this is not a good idea. DES (talk) 22:49, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a contentious claim but one that has gotten a lot of coverage for years. However it should be treated conservatively. It's handled well at Woody_Allen, and that could possibly be a guide to how to handle it elsewhere. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:52, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I should add that there is a difference between "X is a child molester" and "A called X a child molester". The former we should not include without a conviction, but the latter, while needing clear and reliable sources, and some notability for the statement to be included, does not IMO require a conviction, though we should probably add "X was never charged with such an offense." DES (talk) 22:54, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Correct and agreed. The edit User:Bob_the_goodwin (not me) made was to say "X called Y a child molester," not "Y is a child molester." BlueSalix (talk) 22:57, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I am okay with all of the suggestions in the previous paragraph. Agree that this should be conservatively written.  I chose to be concise, which I thought was the more conservative approach, but am totally open to these other approaches.Bob the goodwin (talk) 00:07, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * DE, while we have your attention, would you mind closing this RfC at Ronan Farrow: Talk:Ronan_Farrow? I've filed a request at the requests for closures board but it's hopelessly backlogged. I think this is pretty cut and dry and in any other article I would close it myself, but I'm cautious on this article as virtually any edit I make gets me dragged to ANI. BlueSalix (talk) 23:22, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * First, I did not "insist on calling someone a child molester." User:Bob_the_goodwin made an edit in which he inserted "Farrow is estranged from his father, Woody Allen, whom he claims is a child molester." which is true, Farrow called Allen a child molester. BlueSalix did not call Allen a child molester (nor did I even make this edit except to revert a series of unilateral undos made by above editor to what User:Bob_the_goodwin contributed). A discussion on the merit of the insertion was initiated on the Talk page, but above editor decided, instead, to engage in continuous reverting of User:Bob_the_goodwin and myself. That's that.
 * Second, to the likely forthcoming question of WP:BOOMERANG; aside from this gross mischaracterization of the issue to cast me as some kind of culprit, I will need to note that above editor regularly files voluminous reports against me in ANI and direct appeals to Admins. While these have never yet been upheld, they have become so time consuming I have a standing policy that I no longer monitor these threads beyond an initial reply, so accept my advance apologies if I do not reply to the barrage of new charges and refutations of things I just said that I know are forthcoming. You may want to review the talk page for Ronan Farrow, or the editor's most recent ANI against me here: [], or one of his more particularly vicious outbursts of name calling against other editors in these Talk archives for the same article - [] - in which he calls me a "liar," "a little kid," "dishonest," a "crybaby," and a variety of other names. I know I'm risking WP:CIVIL when I say this, but his tone in this article has become so over-the-top aggressive that any modification of this article has become impossible. Many of us are really at a loss about what to do. (Note that this article has so far had 15 single-purpose sock accounts blocked at my initiation, see here for once of several cases - Sockpuppet_investigations/FortyTwoAndAHalf/Archive - and above editor has been outspoken in requesting investigations into these sock accounts not move forward. This may be the source of his anger at me, I really don't know.) Thank you. BlueSalix (talk) 22:54, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * BlueSalix, as he frequently does, produces a bludgeoning wall of text and makes bad-faith accusations. I happen to take child-molestation accusations against a living person very seriously, while he appears to be much more cavalier about the issue. He's saying that throwing around the label "child molester" is the most neutral language and the most encyclopedic tone. He and User:Bob_the_goodwin chose to use that blunt-tool phrase when more neutral phrasing could have been used.


 * I ask BlueSalix: How has modification of the article become "impossible" when you currently have the edit you want, calling Woody Allen a child molester? Methinks thou dost protest too much. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:05, 3 March 2014 (UTC)


 * There are, additionally, falsehoods and misstatements of fact in BlueSalixs post — all tangential, smokescreen issues not about his use of the phrase "child molester" against a living person who has never even been charged with child molestation. For one thing, the ANI posted about a fringe-science claim regarding a vaccine has been upheld with admins admonishing another editor and protecting the page. You can't just write falsehoods and then complain when someone calls you on it. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:10, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Can you point to the bit of the article where Allen is called a child molester by BlueSalix, rather than reported on as having been called a child molester by Farrow? In my mind there's a pretty big distinction between "X is a child molestor" and "X has been called a child molester". Could you explain why they're identical to you, and counter DES's argument? --Ironholds (talk) 01:52, 3 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Anybody can call anybody a child molester. We're repeating a heinous, unproven claim against a living person who is innocent both legally and as far as anyone knows. We — Wikipedia — are choosing to include this accusation, which a prosecutor did not feel had enough credence even to bring to trial. Since we could chose not to tar a legally innocent man as a child molester, yet are choosing to repeat this claim, then, yes, Wikipedia is saying "X is a child molester." --Tenebrae (talk) 05:35, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with DESiegel about using the source's actual phrasing. We should also state the allegation briefly but precisely (i.e. that it referred to Dylan Farrow) if we use it at all.  If the source didn't include the phrase "child molester" then Wikipedia editors shouldn't wp:synthesize such a description and pass it off as a "summary".  I'm neutral over whether there's already too much detail about Woody Allen in the article that's supposedly about Ronan Farrow.  I do think the article should say something about the estrangement, but a shorter treatment may be enough. 70.36.142.114 (talk) 06:08, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * For the record, there was no synthesis.  search for the text "Mia Farrow's son called the 'Blue Jasmine' director a child molester in blistering tweet".  I shortened this to four words to make it more encyclopedic.
 * Here now arrives another of the infamous Ronan Farrow IP editors. Right on schedule. BlueSalix (talk) 07:17, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * From a look at edit history, the above IP editor is most likely someone other than who you think.
 * The cited source did not have the term "child molester", so I changed the article text into a quote of Farrow's online post. Binksternet (talk) 07:43, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The M.O. of this PR agency's socks is establishing a minor edit history prior to engaging in this article, or the use of dormant accounts that were created in '07 and '08 and spring to life to grammar-edit miscellaneous pages a week before beginning full-time "BattleWiki" editing on Ronan Farrow. There's usually several keywords they use - and WP policies they invoke - that help you ID them, though. I can provide some examples of banned socks to demonstrate this pattern, or background from inquiries I've received off-Wiki from media who are looking into this article's extremely strange history, as I don't want to veer it off-topic. (Suffice to say I've become somewhat of an expert at identifying Bertelson's socks, though I think I'm about to throw-in the towel as I don't have the full-time bandwidth to devote to this like they do.) That said, this is a topic for another thread.
 * To your edit - I'm not sure Farrow posted "a woman publicly confirmed" that Allen "molested her at age 7" is functionally different from "Farrow called [Woody Allen] a child molester" but I don't have an issue with either version, so a warm thanks for offering this direction. My only real interest is that another editor made the choice to level the accusation at me in ANI that I (BlueSalix) had called Woody Allen a child molester (on the basis of me using the "revert" button to protect one of Bob the goodwin's edits). (Accept my apologies in advance if anything I just said sounds snippy; not my intent. Despite my best efforts, I have found my nerves getting a little raw due to having to daily defend myself from an editor, backed by a rotating cast of socks, who have seemingly devoted themselves to getting me blocked by spreading misrepresentations across ANI.) Anyway, thanks for weighing in on this, Binksternet! Best - BlueSalix (talk) 16:10, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * For the record, there was no synthesis. here is the link:  search for the text "Mia Farrow's son called the 'Blue Jasmine' director a child molester in blistering tweet".  I shortened this to four words to make it more encyclopedic.Bob the goodwin
 * That would need WP:INTEXT attribution to not be synthesis, but before being used it should also be assessed for weight and relevance, compared with the totality of documentation about the incident and about Ronan Farrow. The current version avoids the charged terminology but I think I'd back off on the tabloidy sources and rely more on the Vanity Fair article or other more careful sources.  I'd also cross-reference the relevant section of the Woody Allen article that Sportfan5000 linked, and possibly mention the outcome of the police investigation (which didn't find anything to go on).  70.36.142.114 (talk) 23:45, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I must not have understood the word synthesis, I had assumed that since all four words I used were in the article in almost identical context that I had contributed nothing but brevity. As for adding claims of Woody's guilt or innocence, it is a slippery slope.  While it is correct that charges were initiated by his ex wife, and that there was no trial, there are also well referenced articles that use other court documents to paint a very different picture.  I do not think that an Article on Ronan has any business going into the how much public evidence exists, but we should be careful not to seem to take one position if we aren't willing to expand on the issue.  Perhaps a simple solution is to leave the conclusion ambiguous and point to a different article.  All that matters to this biography is that this notable person has chosen to make this accusation, and then not leave the impression that the opinion is the last word.  I agree with your preferences for other sources.Bob the goodwin (talk) 05:40, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * There's a more detailed analysis someplace but the issue is basically explained at WP:YESPOV under "avoid stating opinions as facts". The formulation of Ronan's tweet as calling Allen a child molester is a synthesis/POV done by the Daily News, which we can use as a direct or indirect quote; but if we present the synthesis in Wikipedia's own voice (even with a footnote) then we engage in it ourselves.  Obviously we're looser about this if a topic is uncontentious or if there's lots of sources saying the same thing.  But allegations that a living person is a child molester is about as sensitive as it gets, so we have to use the highest level of care. I think you're right that the passage shouldn't go into the details of the controversy and should instead link to another article to supply the context.  Omitting the context completely creates a neutrality problem, however.  70.36.142.114 (talk) 07:29, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I should add: the reason "child molester" is a synthesis rather than a summary is that it's a highly charged phrase, so using it changes the sentence's pathos from what a straightforward quote would present. Adding this type of coloration is ok for secondary sources but not for us.  We can't convincingly assert that a rephrasing is neutral just because the factual content is equivalent. 70.36.142.114 (talk) 07:45, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Great observation and I stand corrected. I'm still fine with either wording. Your original word choice, "Farrow called Allen a child molester" is as accurate as the current version and simply reads cleaner and more succinctly than the current version which has the choppy pacing and timbre of composition-by-committee. But, since the page protection on this article is about to expire and the flood of resume burnishing about to resume, we have bigger fish to fry (and me, personally, am facing the unenviable new flood of block campaigns from Bertelsman's accounts I'll have to spend my time defending against) to worry about splitting hairs on this one. BlueSalix (talk) 00:31, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment. I'm a bit stunned by our current wording. We essentially are endorsing that Allen is a child molester of a 7-year old girl. We can equivocate about how we are directly quoting or not actually saying what we are indeed implying but the damage is done. If we're going to crack the defamation door ajar we better get into all the details and explicitly explain if any charges have been filed, etc. I think we have this one wrong, and need to back up quickly. Sportfan5000 (talk) 09:32, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * That the contextual info is omitted is is a good point. As you mention further up, Woody Allen seems to explain the situation pretty well.  Maybe it's enough to link to that.  70.36.142.114 (talk) 17:55, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree it may be enough to link to the children link you referenced.Bob the goodwin (talk) 05:44, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Question Are we bound to include everything someone writes about their father (on Twitter) in their article (even if it has been repeated by others)? --kelapstick(bainuu) 13:02, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * This has been a very good discussion. I put the original words in, and agree with most comments in this section about making sure that Wikipedia does not seem to be making an accusation, and thus the wording clearly matters.  It was my initial opinion that a few words clearly written in the voice of Ronan best met this goal, but the consensus decision will be better than my initial judgment.  On the question of whether this is notable, relevant, and well sourced, of course it is.  I think DES gave us some good guidance above on where the balance between useful and inflammatory information is drawn.Bob the goodwin (talk) 22:05, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, the correct answer to that rhetorical question is a resounding no. --kelapstick(bainuu) 22:38, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment BlueSalix, if you think there is a PR agency involved with this, can you open a thread at the COI noticeboard (WP:COIN) and post your evidence? That is better than making ABF accusations here. 70.36.142.114 (talk) 01:34, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Please go to RfC on this issue
Bob the goodwin at the Ronan Farrow article seems so intent on calling Woody Allen a child molester that he has just removed two sentences, ported over from Woody Allen, that balance this hugely serious claim by noting no charges were ever filed and that Allen has denied the allegation. Why? Because he says it's "POV" to provide this balance and context. Please comment at Talk:Ronan Farrow. --Tenebrae (talk) 11:44, 4 March 2014 (UTC) I have repeatedly asked Tenebrae to stop making accusations against me. There is plenty of room for debate on this wording.Bob the goodwin (talk) 12:50, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The reversion was bad because it removed the info that the allegations are disputed. I commented on this at the RFC. 70.36.142.114 (talk) 16:09, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * And, indeed, two editors aside from me, here and here, are asking Bob the goodwin to stop making his disruptive and violative edits. This follows a blatant falsehood he posted about another editor, which I called him on, here, supplying a link as proof. We and other editors at the RfC are all frustrated with this biased and argumentative editor who brought what has become clear from the RfC is a baseless BLPN charge. Could someone talk to him about his behavior ... please. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:25, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Tracy Morgan
Someone is inserting their names and changing information on Tracy Morgan's page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmischke (talk • contribs) 09:20, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I gave a warning.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:45, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Christian Parenti


A few eyes on this in case I miss more activity - an IP insists on adding unreferenced controversial/potentially defamatory material. Reported through OTRS. § FreeRangeFrog croak 19:50, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Emma Sky
Talk:Emma Sky

A lot of material has recently been added to this article's talk page, including at least one long quote from an unreliable source and some unsourced comments that seem to attempt to link her to various scandals. I'm unsure exactly which parts of it need to be removed from the page (and particularly whether links should be removed), so it would be good if someone more sure of what they are doing could take a look. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AKiwiDeerPin (talk • contribs) 07:34, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Wayne Madsen
Hi - the article subject has contacted the WMF requesting that the article be evaluated for content. In my opinion, the last section is just a coatrack of quotes and positions, without any actual structure. When viewed that way, I could see an argument that it is a violation of BLP. Would there by someone here who would be willing to take a look at this article? Thanks. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 10:12, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The entries in the "Reporting and opinions" section need to be scrutinized individually with possibly the entire section deleted. Some are irrelevant to the bio, some are mainstream views worded to make them look fringe and some are just wrong. For example one states that Madsen "suggested" that the prosecution of Eliot Spitzer was partly due to intervention by Mossad. Reading the source shows that in the 644 word article discussing the prosecution of Spitzer, only 56 words refer to Madsen where he claims that US intelligence believe the call girl service to be a front for Mossad and that he believes that organized crime outed him, in fact it is now known that Spitzer was outed by a federal wiretap on the call girl service making this entry no longer notable if it ever was. Another entry implies that Madsen is a Birther when in fact he was the first journalist to publicly discredit the Kenyan birth certificate. Some entries are Madsen simply reporting what third parties have claimed. Due to long standing difficulties in editing the article I suggest an admin be involved in any review of content. Wayne (talk) 17:33, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

James Bradley (surgeon)


Article was an adulatory press release, which I've cut somewhat. Could use further attention. Thanks, 14:09, 5 March 2014 (UTC)JNW (talk)
 * I'd really appreciate more eyes on this, not only for further de-puffing but for the efforts of several accounts removing maintenance templates and restoring an unencyclopedic version. JNW (talk) 15:37, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Watching. Where's the notability here? This looks like it could be AFDed. There are only two valid claims to notability (publications and being named to some list) and both are unsourced. For publications to matter we require citation indexes, and being somewhere in a list of 65 doctors is not too hot either. § FreeRangeFrog croak 17:14, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Good points all. Under references there's one newspaper article about him ; the rest is rather thin, or includes tangential mentions. JNW (talk) 17:34, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Vivek Murthy
Vivek Murthy

The final sentence of the article regarding gun control is not supported by the cited article ("US Senate Panel approves Vivek Murthy’s nomination as Surgeon General". IANS. news.biharprabha.com. Retrieved 1 March 2014.). The final sentence includes a characterization of Mr Murthy's gun control stance, which when looking at the cited article is clearly a quotation from a critic, the NRA. The Wiki article fails to indicate that this sentence includes a quotation from a critic of Mr Murthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.62.199.194 (talk) 02:13, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Yup, quite right. I'll remove this, and leave a note on the talk page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:22, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Juan Gómez-Quiñones
I am the eldest child of Professor Juan Gomez-Quinones and I am writing to you on his behalf concerning the DEFAMATORY & LIBELOUS CLAIMS being made under his biographical entry.

Under the section entitled "Criticism" under the entry Juan Gómez-Quiñones there is an UNTRUE and PATENTLY FALSE statement made regarding an UNCITED L.A. TIMES article which attempts to SLANDER my still living father's reputation with a contrived story involving former UC Regent Ochoa. This alleged incident is based purely on malicious gossip meant to SLANDER my father's personal and professional reputation.

I request that all WIKIPEDIA references to this alleged incident be EXORCISED IMMEDIATELY and that any future attempts to post such libelous stories on the WIKIPEDIA site be denied.

Failure to do so will result in legal action being taken against WIKIPEDIA on behalf of Professor Gomez-Quinones.

I also request from WIKIPEDIA any and all information regarding the POSTER of this information, as I intend to defend my father's reputation vigorously via legal channels.

Please contact me immediately should it be necessary to do so.

Your cooperation is appreciated.

Sincerely,

Tamara Gomez-Quinones [e-mail address redacted] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.171.173 (talk) 22:57, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi, I removed the cricism section from Juan Gómez-Quiñones as it was based on a site called Uclaprof.com which is run by Bruin Alumni Association and is not a reliable source per Wikipedia standard. Thank you for adressing the issue. Please don't make legal threats on Wikipedia though; legal issues must be dealt with off-line. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 23:09, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
 * That is the proper thing to do, but primarily because of the sourcing issue. The event actually did happen and is documented in RS. Tamara, legal threats can quickly get you blocked from Wikipedia and they also upset editors here. The Streisand effect can be pretty powerful! Wikipedia will not be threatened into silence or self-censorship. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:38, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * She is not a regular editor here, so we can't expect her to know about the ban against legal threats. As long as it is not repeated, it isn't a problem. People have the right to become upset if they see what they believe are wrong or misleading information about people they know or even are related to. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 03:45, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Steve Stockman
This page has been subject to campaign vandalism by certain group of editors on Wikipedia who may be acting for Senator Cornyns multimillion dollar negative advertisement campaign. They have removed Congressman Policy Positions and replaced it with misstatements and malicious libel. These editors Tillman54, Famspear, Fredkin and others have managed to engaged in bias on this site. They have also successfully managed to have Stockman page locked to outside and so they control the editing and have any editor who corrects their campaign vandalism be called a sock puppet and blocked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.163.168.218 (talk) 20:16, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Link to article: Ajaxfiore (talk) 18:32, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Tillman54, Famspear, and their cohorts have managed to engaged in bias, malicious misstatement and removal of objective content on this page. They have also successfully managed to have Steve Stockman page blocked from objective editing by having any editor who puts objective content be called a sock puppet and blocked. If Tillman54, Famspear and their cohorts Steve hate Steve Stockman they should not be given a free hand for editing this page based on their subjective bias and lock everyone from editing this page. Please remove the protection on this page and open this page for everyone to edit. Thanks Aflac123 (talk) 06:40, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Is this you? That's what you want to do on the article?  No thanks!  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 06:48, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * This issue is well documented both at Talk:Steve Stockman and at Sockpuppet investigations/1houstonian/Archive. Persistent sockpuppetry has been confirmed by SPI. The blocked editor (1houstonian) has been unwilling to follow or unable to understand wikipedia's policies regarding neutrality and sourcing and would rather engage in sockpuppetry and namecalling. Many attempts have been made to explain best practices to this editor without success. Due to the repeated disruption, I see no reason to remove protection from the article. Aflac123 is welcome to draft text that he would like to see on the article talk page, but he has to be willing to listen to experienced editors when it comes to the tone and sourcing of that text. GabrielF (talk) 06:51, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * (ec) Not a chance. Try using the talk page to discuss your edits. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 06:53, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It should also be noted that the edit linked by Nomoskedasticity contains at least one copyright violation - the first sentence (made into gibberish by the omission of the word 'ports') is copy-pasted from the source cited. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:57, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a community project with objective point of view. All you have in here is subjective misstatements, out of context stories which do not reflect this individual's bio. By protecting this page you are closing this page for edit by anyone who wants to introduce a neutral point of view and you have opened this page only to allow edits by Tillman54, Famspear, GabrielF and cohorts who do not like Steve Stockman and can only put in a biased hateful POV as you can see on this page. If they had some questions about Steve Stockmans policy positions or wanted a citation they could have requested it as is done on Wikipedia. They outright removed his Policy Positions to belittle a man that has been elected by 70% to Congressional office. In 2014 Senate Elections the incumbent Cornyn missed being forced into runoff by 9%whereas Cornyn outspent Stockman 14 million to 100,000. Instead Tillman54 and his cohorts focus the nonsense about TCR defense in the 2014 Election section.Aflac123 (talk) 07:30, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Why don't you read through the many objections to your preferred text that were raised at Talk:Steve Stockman and try rewriting the text to address those concerns? We have a pretty high bar for what gets into the encyclopedia, especially when its about living people, and when we reject contributions its usually because those contributions don't clear our bar, not because we don't like the ideas that were expressed. Instead of making accusations, why don't you assume that the dozen or so experienced editors who have looked at this are acting in good faith and try to revise your contribution taking into account the suggestions that we've made?GabrielF (talk) 07:56, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * @GabrielF if your suggestion is in good faith I suggest you the put Policy Positions of Steve Stockman back in the bio page even a reduced version with notes on why you removed the others and remove the protection to edit by everyone as Wikipedia is supposed to be. Steve Stockman bio in its current condition is totally subjective in every sentence from start to finish. It is the only bio of serving politician that starts "American politician and member of the Republican Party who has been the United States Representative" instead of saying who is the current.Aflac123 (talk) 02:11, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Richard Lee McNair
The article says he sucked off 28 guards, which is probably inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.28.149.129 (talk) 07:15, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Childish vandalism, subsequently reverted.--ukexpat (talk) 21:07, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Ezekiel H. Guti
This page just reads like an advertisement at the moment... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.45.182 (talk) 09:45, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Draft:Abby Martin
Is this the first draft article ever discussed here? Anyway, this draft BLP is languishing in draft status even though it's clearly ready for the limelight. There have been two AfD's and two AfC's and still it's just sitting there in limbo. Maybe an admin could give it a push?Anythingyouwant (talk) 08:20, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Resolved.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:10, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Ronn Torossian
This article has suffered down the years from POV editing in both directions and I'm trying to clean it up. I'd be grateful for some assistance at this talk page, where I'm trying to establish consensus. Please click this section. Thanks --Dweller (talk) 16:53, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Satoshi_Nakamoto
The founder of bitcoin was recently claimed to be a japanese man living in the US, with a tell-all Newsweek article that exposed tons of personal details about this fellow. The person in question never directly agreed to the link (and had taken great pains to retain his anonymity, even calling the cops when the reporter showed up at his door), so eyes of this board on this profile would be appreciated, esp with respect to privacy of the subject. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:08, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

David Grannis
This page has been created and repeatedly re-edited over the past three months to post false and inflammatory information. The comments in the edits and talk section imply a personal vendetta. Apologize in advance if I've not included enough information--am new to this process.

Kerrysg (talk) 19:18, 6 March 2014 (UTC)kerrysg
 * Can you be more specific? What content is "false and inflammatory"? I have seen some unambiguously subjective expression of opinion in the article, and have removed it, and there may well be more content that should be removed. However, since you know what you think the problems are, it will be helpful if you can tell us what they are, rather than leaving anyone who reads this to search through the article's history, search through the cited sources, etc etc, in order to try to find what problems there may be. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 19:34, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Russell Blaylock
Mr Blaylock, as an anon (AGFing that it is really him) has complained about aspects of the article on the helpdesk. 88.104.31.21 (talk) 20:32, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Please discuss on Talk:Russell_Blaylock - not here. Thanks. 88.104.31.21 (talk) 20:39, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Sabancı family
Will someone take a look at this? There's a large number of individual names, most living people, in an article which connects a genocide with the family as a group. I came to this through the article on Murat (now a redirect), I would hope my concern would be obvious. Thanks in advance. --j⚛e deckertalk 20:33, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Removed section. No comment on the rest. 88.104.31.21 (talk) 21:07, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * That satisfies my biggest concern, thanks. --j⚛e deckertalk 02:06, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Murry Salby
It's on AfD for a few more days but looks like a lot of !votes will keep the article. They noted (adn I agree) that the tone is exclusively negative and not about what he would be notable for. Per ATTACK page policy of someone that is otherwise notable but unbalanced, I stubbed it. Please let someone else take a look so I don't edit war over it. Thx. --DHeyward (talk) 22:29, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * An editor reverted to the attack page and Bbb23 locked the page as in almost completely negative tone about material the subject is not notable for. Please take a look.  --DHeyward (talk) 23:55, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
 * His firing should not be in the lead, at least in its current form.Two kinds of pork (talk) 04:09, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * There's been pending edit requests to improve it. Despite other editor requests to fix it and/or stub,  has not unlocked it or corrected it.  --DHeyward (talk) 06:24, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Rich Phillips
Recommend deletion. Page was created in farce about a minor local radio personality and is full of farce. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.35.35.34 (talk) 14:15, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yuck, some of that had been there since 2010 with nobody apparently picking up on it. Reverted to what appears to be a clean version and redacted all the BLP violations out of the log.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 13:12, 7 March 2014 (UTC).

Angelo Antonio Toriello
Angelo Antonio Toriello article seems now quite well cited by reliable sources which cover information of his early life confirmed by highly reputed source like UN as well, and much more cited than so many other articles published on Wikipedia which have pourer citing reliable sources. Therefore, I don't see the reason of not removing the "alerting noticeboard box" on this article page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.60.27.70 (talk) 07:54, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The concerns with sourcing seem to have been addressed, so I removed the tag. § FreeRangeFrog croak 17:45, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Keith Haring
I'm having trouble cleaning up this article.

Large sections (most of it) are non-neutral and either completely unreferenced or only have a self-published reference (which is inappropriate for non-neutral claims).

My edits are being undone as "vandalism" - example.

I don't want to get involved in an edit war, so I'd appreciate it if someone else could look at these unref'd BLP claims. Thanks. 88.104.31.21 (talk) 10:23, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Not a BLP issue, as this person died almost 25 years ago. That's not to say that there's no problem, but it doesn't come under the remit of this policy.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:32, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed, although I sympathise with trying to get the biography impeccably cited, the article talk page is the best venue for this. Lankiveil (speak to me) 13:08, 7 March 2014 (UTC).

Tom Harrell
playing as a sideman with Phil Woods Quintet - Bop stew (Concord 1987)

Philip Catherine Trio - I remember you (Criss Cross 1990)

Moods 2 (Criss Cross 1992) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.109.116.70 (talk) 13:33, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

George Hill - all state soccer
George Hill (basketball player)

So I stumbled across the reference to George Hill being an all-state goalie in HS. I was the same age and played in the same city/conference as him. As far as I know, he definitely did not make all-state as a goalie. He went to Broadripple HS, and they were terrible at soccer. They didn't have anyone in the Top Scoring, Top Assists, or Top Save or GPG rankings, and they lost in the first round of soccer playoffs (sectionals) every year I looked up. That doesn't mean he couldn't be all-state, but he doesn't show up on any of the official IHSAA all-state teams from his time in HS (in the links below).


 * http://www.ihsaa.org/archive/b-soccer/02Leaders.htm
 * http://www.ihsaa.org/archive/b-soccer/03Leaders.htm
 * http://www.ihsaa.org/archive/b-soccer/00AllState.htm
 * http://www.ihsaa.org/archive/b-soccer/01AllState.htm
 * http://www.ihsaa.org/archive/b-soccer/02AllState.htm
 * http://www.ihsaa.org/archive/b-soccer/03AllState.htm

I know this is original research, which goes against wikipedia policy, but I would just ask that it be looked at for removal. He clearly played soccer but the only verification for him being all-state as a goalie seems to come from him. 18:10, 7 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.181.202.215 (talk)

J. Michael Shoemaker
the page entitled j. michael shoemaker contains false and libelous information... i request that it be deleted.

sincerely, j. michael shoemaker — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swamichetanananda (talk • contribs) 20:24, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Dear Wikipedia Noticeboard and Response Team:

This page J. Michael Shoemaker was uploaded last night about myself by an editor named Joshua Jonathan   User:Joshua Jonathan. It appeared after we had a discussion over a change request on another page (Nath), which has since been resolved.

This page's primary source is a biased and defamatory web-page, which makes accusations against me which were never substantiated nearly 14 years ago. This source does not meet the standards of Wikipedia sources for living persons. Biographies of living persons

I do not wish to have a Wikipeadia page about myself. I do not feel I meet the Wikipedia criteria of a notable public person. I feel this page is a deliberate attempt to draw attention to biased, defamatory, unsubstantiated and accusatory material to myself. Additionally, the page has incorrect information about my biography, even the year of my birth is incorrect.

I ask your immediate attention to this matter to please remove the entire page from Wikipedia and also ask Joshua Jonathan to stop posting pages about myself.

Thank you very much for your consideration,

Swami Chetanananda (formerly J. Michael Shoemaker)

Portland, OR — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swamichetanananda (talk • contribs) 20:26, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Joey Moi
Several sources mention that Joey Moi attended a "CDIS School of Engineering", but I was completely unable to find any reference to such a school existing. There is a CDI College in Vancouver, but it appears to have no courses in engineering. Any idea where this erroneous claim could've come from, or what it might actually be in reference to? Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:28, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * This 2003 article from Canadian Musician magazine states: "Moi, who had taken a three-year program at Burnaby's The Centre for Digital Imaging and Sound (CDIS), when he met Nickelback in the mid-'90s..." CDIS is now known as The Art Institute of Vancouver.  Gong   show  20:46, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Here's a promotional page for CDIS from 2000. Not something that's appropriate to source an article, but I think it's safe to say that it at least existed.--Cube lurker (talk) 20:59, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

J. Michael Shoemaker
Notification Board:

This is regarding page J. Michael Shoemaker. You have previously been notified and asked to investigate libelous sources cited as sources to the biography on this page. This is a page of a living person, posted on Wikipedia without the consent or wish of the person, Swami Chetanananda, birth name J. Michael Shoemaker.

The contentious source citing keep reappearing. It is being posted by editor UKexpat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ukexpat

Please block this user from repeatedly siting the defamatory sources. This is clear and deliberate defamation of character and an aggressive attack on an individual.

Thank you for your very fair and quick action in this matter,

Monica O'Neal Research Assistant for Swami Chetanananda The Movement Center Portland OR Ratmcsc (talk) 05:49, 8 March 2014 (UTC)Ratmcsc (talk) 05:50, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It does appear that http://www.culteducation.com/reference/swamichet/swamichet2.html was used in violation of WP:BLPSPS. This link should not be restored. I offer no opinion about the other sources in dispute. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 05:56, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, please refrain from using terms such as "libelous" and "defamatory" when discussing this issue, since they could easily be misunderstood as a legal threat. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 06:04, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * As the article has now been deleted, I cannot see its history but as far as I can recall, Ms O'Neal removed the reference without explanation. I reverted during recent changes patrol, but obviously I should have looked at it more closely. I had no dog in this fight so was not motivated by any intention to "defame". --ukexpat (talk) 01:21, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Charles R. Conn
Could someone please help at Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Charles R. Conn, this seems to me to be a person who meets our inclusion criteria (as Warden of the Rhodes Trust, a non-trivial position). There are sources, but they are numerous rather than substantial. It would be nice to be able to help here. Guy (Help!) 13:38, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Sam Parnia
Since 6 March there appears to be a consistent effort to degenerate a scientists work as parapsychological and non scientific (pseudoscience) by individuals with what appears to be a bias towards skepticism. The scientists work has never been labeled in this way in any academic or major publications such as newspapers. It focuses on the state of the brain during sudden cardiac arrest and surviving patients reports of their psychological state including near death experiences. The goal of the work includes saving the brain from damage and avoiding psychological injury. The scientists work which is well respected by the main stream has been published and presented at major mainstream scientific peer reviewed journals including the biggest medical journal (new England journal of medicine) and conferences such as the American heart association. This mislabeling borders which remains unsupported by credible evidence or references borders on lible. While this has been explained in the talk section to the individuals concerned they continue to link it to the parapsychological without justification other than their own opinions. They have also significantly changed the article contents which when i last checked was more accurate and better supported by credible evidence.

Please block the subject of the article from this type of activity and also remove the name sam parnia from any association with the parapsychological. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.254.79.43 (talk) 14:06, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * You have been socking on various IPS, and you have been reverted a number of times for edit warring. This is already discussed on the talk-page of the article. Have you read the references on the article? Goblin Face (talk) 14:25, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Parnia has talked on Coast to Coast AM writing:


 * "The whole concept of what we are...mind & consciousness, doesn't seem to disintegrate after people have died, at least not in the first phase of death."


 * "Rather than the popular concept that death leads to unlimited knowledge in the afterlife, he suggested that "people take their own level of thought to the other dimension." Therefore, Parnia posited that perhaps the purpose of life on Earth is to prepare us to better understand this next level when we arrive there.".

Science is it? It sounds like paranormal speculation. Goblin Face (talk) 14:55, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Notwithstanding whether Parnia is first and foremost a parapsychologist, what it comes down to is that his research and frequent discussion of near death experiences is very much in line with the parapsychology article cluster. The parapsychology template on that page helps people navigate to other pages about people who study things like NDEs and the concepts underlying their study. Consensus is very clear on the article regarding the appropriateness of this, but certain IP SPAs, , ,  have been engaging in an intense editwar trying to remove this template. As three of the four IPs in question are New York IPs I'm suspicious that this might be sock puppetry, suggesting a particularly aggressive edit-warrior. Simonm223 (talk) 15:07, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * See my comments on the talk page of the article. 172.254 is not reporting Parnia's paranormal experiments it seems this user does not want it mentioned on the article (but this is what Parnia is most well known for). Parnia has set up targets in hospital rooms to test the idea that if the OBE/NDE are not psychological and are "transcendental" then one should able to project their consciousness or soul out of their body and read the targets. This sort of experiment has been conducted by parapsychologists since the 1970s (see Charles Tart etc) and all have failed. Rupert Sheldrake has conducted similar experiments which have been heavily criticized by the scientific community (see psychic staring effect). This is fringe science, some may even call it pseudoscience. There's a section that covers these kind of experiments here (which mentions Parnia) . The experiments have a long history of producing negative results. Goblin Face (talk) 16:55, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * This may be of use, from Susan Blackmore . Goblin Face (talk) 17:04, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Michael Roach
Michael Roach — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abhayakara (talk • contribs) 10:09, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

This article is virtually a stub article, with very thin detail about why Michael Roach is notable, on top of which a huge controversy section has been added, which seems to be aimed at publicizing the POV of some people who disagree with Michael Roach (full disclosure: I used to study with Michael Roach in Arizona). It would be nice if someone who doesn't have an axe to grind could look at the article and consider whether it is really encyclopedic and gives due weight to the controversy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abhayakara (talk • contribs) 10:07, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

reviewed Mosfetfaser (talk) 21:22, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, that was certainly a good edit, but it still seems remarkably unbalanced. Do you really think it's just fine the way it is? Abhayakara (talk) 21:51, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


 * hiya, yes I do - was his marriage to his student a reported controversy, did the Dalai Lama's people comment as such, was the death on his property a reported controversy, yes, yes. yes, I tried to make the reporting as neutral as I could Mosfetfaser (talk) 22:12, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The current controversy section is almost as long as the rest of the article, which covers his entire career up to the time of the controversy, and apparently stops there despite the fact that he continues to do stuff.  So apparently that stuff is not notable, which suggests that the stuff he did before the controversy isn't either.   If the controversy section is the only thing that's really interesting about him, then arguably we should just delete the article, because that suggests that he's not very interesting.   That is, if some random person did what is reported in the controversy section, but was otherwise not notable, we would never have heard about it unless it happened in our town.   So do you think the article ought to be deleted, or do you think it has value.   And if it has value, can you explain what about Roach is notable? Abhayakara (talk) 14:05, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, as for the student's death, he died in BLM land, not on the retreat center property (at least according to the cited sources). Abhayakara (talk) 14:10, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * If he "continues ot do stuff" please add to the article the details and reporting sources. "The current controversy section is almost as long as the rest of the article" - there is no longer a controversy section. - " as for the student's death, he died in BLM land, not on the retreat center property" - please correct that as the reports, I do not know about this person previous to reading this report. Mosfetfaser (talk) 18:51, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Abhayakara was instructed at COIN not to edit this article; I'm sure he remembers. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:52, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I do remember, although I think the request was bogus and the Wikipedia article is probably actionable.  Unfortunately, Buddhist monks take a vow not to engage in legal action, so Wikipedia is safe from lawsuit, but since only POV pushers seem to be interested in this article, it makes for a pretty non-encyclopedic article. Abhayakara (talk) 19:24, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

María Luisa Piraquive


This bio has landed here before as problematic, with a bunch of IPs and SPAs that have pushed hard to curate wholly negative content, and another set of IPs and SPAs writing flowery praise in the Biography section. Piraquive is a controversial figure in Colombia to be sure - I would liken her to one of those megachurch preacher/pastors in the U.S. who tend to garner unusual amounts of bad press. There were several sourced "controversies" that I removed per WP:BLPCRIME, because she has not been formally charged or otherwise convicted of them. These include allegedly having been involved in the death of her husband (!), ties to organized crime and fraud. I left a comment in the talk page with some more info, I'd appreciate a few more eyes in case the IPs return to add more negative material without appropriate sourcing. § FreeRangeFrog croak 19:55, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Russell Welch
I'd appreciate it if editors could take a look at Russell Welch. There are some extraordinary claims about CIA drug trafficking and anthrax which are unsourced or are sourced to what appear to be fringe publications. GabrielF (talk) 03:37, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Relationships of Dale Tryon, Baroness Tryon
This article contains information about living people involved with this woman. The article Charles, Prince of Wales doesn't mention her, and neither does Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall. I'm still wary about the system being gamed. --George Ho (talk) 22:08, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * All the "rumoured affair" stuff has to come out as it is completely unsourced - the other alleged party is still alive so BLP applies.--ukexpat (talk) 13:55, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅--ukexpat (talk) 14:49, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Tor (anonymity network)
Wikipedia says, "Andrew Lewman, the executive director of the Tor project, stated that even though it accepts funds from the U.S. federal government, the Tor service did not necessarily collaborate with the NSA to reveal identities of users." This is a non-neutrally phrased misinterpretation of a misquotation of a mailing list post by a poor quality news blog that has been placed in a way that implies a connection between government research grants (attributed to another source) and covert spying (a baseless conclusion) on the part of Mr. Lewman and Roger Dingledine. The misquote by the source is egregious and taints the source enough to render it also unusable as a primary source about Dingledine.

The [source] actually says, "Tor Executive Director Andrew Lewman wrote in an e-mail to users that just because the project accepts federal funding does not mean it collaborated with the NSA to unmask people's online identities." This is a very bad restatement of a [post] on the tor-talk Internet mailing list that is quoted by the source: "'The parts of the U.S. and Swedish governments that fund us through contracts want to see strong privacy and anonymity exist on the Internet in the future,' Lewman wrote. 'Don't assume that 'the government' is one coherent entity with one mindset.'" Nothing about unmasking people's online identities, and no mention of the NSA. It wasn't even in response to a question about him spying for the NSA. These are the blogger's words stuffed into the mouth of Andrew Lewman.

It fails verifiability for that statement so poorly that its claim about what Roger Dingledine told the blogger is suspect. It is synthesis because it combines material on funding from one source with the NSA misquote by another, implying a connection between the two and insinuating that there could be something to it. It's POV because the paraphrase on Wikipedia has a different meaning and tone than the source. There is a difference between something not meaning something else and someone "not necessarily" doing something. The sentence has become evasive, self-incriminating doubletalk with the new meaning that his behavior is subject to interpretation, or that he neither confirms nor denies it.

Talk page thread

Archived WP:RSNB thread

Archived WP:BLPNB thread 178.8.154.86 (talk) 00:27, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Ah, the super-secret imaginary BLP violation that 94.222.101.42 and 94.222.101.42 alone can see returns!
 * Once again 94.222.101.42 is talking about RELIABLE SOURCES on the BIOGRAPHIES OF LIVING PERSONS noticeboard. The reliable sources noticeboard is for discussing the reliability of sources. The biographies of living persons noticeboard is for discussing violations of Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy (which, I remind you, does not exist in this case other than in 94.222.101.42's fevered imagination). The fact that 94.222.101.42 appears to be unable to understand this basic concept is either a WP:COMPETENCE problem or an WP:IDHT problem.


 * I recommend closing this and sending it to WP:RSN where it belongs. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:39, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, RS, OR(synth), and NPOV. Please comment here if you disagree. Please don't chill discussion; this is important. Anything you want to say to me personally can go on your talk page. 178.8.154.86 (talk) 02:18, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Per 's comments above, there have already been several threads on this on the article talk page and multiple noticeboards, and in none of them has the IP been able to draw support, nevermind consensus. WP:BLUDGEONing. --&mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  |  03:13, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Guy Macon and Rhododendrites are the two editors who strongly want to keep the material. I dispute how both of them have characterized the discussion so far, and it's off-topic, biasing, and discourages community comment. Let's get back on topic. 178.8.154.86 (talk) 03:28, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't care what is in that particular article and I think the existing editors are doing a fine job without me. Make a persuasive argument and get some editors to agree with you, and if you reach the point where there is a clear consensus for the changes you wish to make except for one holdout, and I will tell that fellow that he isn't going to get what he wants. Again, there is no BLP violation and your complaint about (in your own words) "RS, OR(synth), and NPOV" is completely off-topic on the biographies of living persons noticeboard. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:25, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

I have, but that's still not the topic here. Since you are the one who restored the material, why don't you explain why you think it is usable? 88.75.168.80 (talk) 09:47, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Azam Khan
"However, Khan was detained at the Boston Airport for questioning, over his Samajwadi Party finances, and its links to Al-Qaeda and D-Company." Above line is not verifiable and seems to be written with malice intention. Needs to be verified and removed, if content is picked from dubious source to spread rumors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.106.103.52 (talk) 02:38, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Given that (a) the sources cited said nothing about Al-Qaeda etc, and (b) what was sourced was largely copy-pasted directly into the article, I've removed the section. If a section on the incident is merited, it needs to properly reflect sources - and avoid POV terms like 'ruckus'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:23, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Doug Kershaw
I posted this at WT:LOUISIANA in 2011 and again on March 7, but got no answers.

Interesting thing here. I've searched all over and cannot find any proof that his supposed hometown of "Tiel Ridge" ever existed. Literally every hit I found on Google, Gnews and Gbooks mentions him and/or his brother, and I've found no outside mention of the town anywhere. Does anyone have any idea what the origin is of this supposed town, or if maybe it's a typo for something else? Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 04:09, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * My search has also come up dry, including plausible alternate spellings. Perhaps it is just a region or neighborhood, like American Ridge, Idaho, where my grandfather was born 130+ years ago. But there is plenty of information about that place, including sources describing a cemetery where several of my relatives are buried. Maybe it is the Kershaws pulling our legs.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  06:22, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * This article mentions that Tiel Ridge is "a place he says was not a town as such, but was instead a section of coast on a small island where you could tie up your houseboat." Another article says it was in "Cameron Parish, Louisiana, an island just off the Gulf of Mexico". Also, a local type of ridge is the Chenier ridgeGoogle cache. Most have eroded away, so it's likely that it is no longer there. -- Auric    talk  14:29, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Dov Weissglas
1. I have edited my page but defamatory information is added anew. 2. How can I change the photograph? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shila peri (talk • contribs) 16:07, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * What might be defamatory here? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:06, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Georgi Konstantinovski
This completely unsourced BLP was mostly written by who has only worked on this article and has not edited in 1.5 years. What's the best course of action? -- Jprg1966  (talk)  17:00, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It's pretty non-neutral in a lot of places, and, as you say, completely unsourced. Shockingly, it seems to fall within the very narrow constraints of BLPPROD, which will either shake out someone willing to add a reliable source to this article, or not.  --j⚛e deckertalk 17:36, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * It wasn't too difficult to find at least some sources for Konstantinovski - in particular, this page from the Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts  (in Slovenian, but Google translate seems to make a reasonable job of it) seems to confirm the gist of it. He seems to have attracted international commentary (see ) as well as being a former Dean of the Faculty of Architecture in Skopje, which suggests to me that he probably meets Wikipedia notability guidelines. I'll add the Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts reference to the article, and put a note on the talk page regarding other sources I've found, then remove the BLPPROD. Further referencing may need accessing academic material behind paywalls etc, and will probably require knowledge of South Slavic languages, so it is probably beyond my skillset - but at least we'll have a start. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:34, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your help. It would be a shame to waste a lengthy biography, however problematic. -- Jprg1966  (talk)  20:26, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Pat Garofalo
This is an extended stub about a Minnesota politician who recently sent a tweet about basketball that has picked up some controversy. Several editors have turned this article into a coatrack for allegations of racism with poor sourcing. Please watch. Jonathunder (talk) 20:20, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I'd not call this particularly poor sourcing. WP:BLP policy isn't intended to protect politicians from legitimate criticism - and it is difficult to see how criticism couldn't be legitimate, given the apology Garofelo later made. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:33, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

tomas van houtryve
- The person is still alive and doesn't want any wikipage. PLEASE delete this page. I'm his assistant. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nordicpadawan (talk • contribs) 20:56, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * We don't delete articles on request. And I suggest that you desist from vandalising the article before you are blocked from editing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:02, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Rachel Sheherazade
The article is poorly written (as if someone just ran it through Google Translate) and reads like a publicist's piece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.20.14 (talk) 23:34, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Mark Dawidziak


I've attempted to de-puff this, but grow tired of backing and forthing with WP:SPA users. More eyes on this would be much appreciated. Not sure that the subject meets notability guidelines, or if so, that every publication requires mention. JNW (talk) 04:03, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Juan Pablo Galavis
Someone vandalized the introduction paragraph that you see upon typing in his name (it leads to the Wikipedia link). It is filthy and mean spirited and not a biography of him. Someone else's name is in the paragraph and it looks like a cut and paste for a portion of this paragraph. Since Juan Pablo is so controversial at the moment, this is even more demeaning and was put there by someone who obviously dislikes him and is inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.131.26.141 (talk) 00:06, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Article looks okay to me, don't see any suggestions when typing in his name search on Wikipedia (or Google). Raquel Baranow (talk) 00:23, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It looks like some vandalism that was reverted already. § FreeRangeFrog croak 00:51, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Reference_desk/Humanities
We have various users asking for speculation on the trial of the subject, and others saying what is obviously the case, almost none providing references for their questions, speculation, or answers. Given this is article space, not talk space, it should probably be entirely deleted, although some users seem to have a problem with applying BLP standards to comments regarding a living person. I have hatted it through here, but I am afraid it should probably be entirely removed. μηδείς (talk) 05:52, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Where is the speculation in that thread? HiLo48 (talk) 06:08, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The various users seem to be confused that making statements at the ref desks about the supposed criminal actions of living persons don't need very strong support from reliable sources in the form of proper citations and neutral language in every instance. Offering first-person driven "explanations", rather than bare links to reliable resources, is indeed problematic.  It's not my place to argue or explain this.  WP:RS is our deepest policy.  Those who think it so dire we expose WP to liability, moral or legal, for defaming any living person, have the burden on them and themselves alone to show why their comments are so important to the inquirent. μηδείς (talk) 06:24, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * It might not be your job to explain BLP to others, but when you claim a certain page contains a BLP breach, and when are asked now 4 times to point out exactly where the breach was, and you spectacularly fail to do so, then you have not succeeded in satisfying anyone that your claim has any merit at all. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  07:01, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Nobody's accusing you of being evul, Jack. You just don't seem to realize all that matters in ref desk space is article space, not talk space, and article space requires strong WP:RS to allow any discussion of defamatory material.  Criminal accusations are defamation per se.  Defamation per se.  Deh-fah-ma-shun per say.  I don' t need to prove otherwise--you and others need to prove your unsupported commmentary isn't defamatory.  No one has given any relevant refs for the hatted material. μηδείς (talk) 07:18, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * What defamatory material? What criminal accusations?  Where did anyone on that thread ever accuse anyone of anything, or defame anybody?  We are discussing a case that has been brought by the SA Police; THEY are the ones who have charged Pistorius with murder.  He is defending the charge, and he's innocent until and unless proven guilty.  We can ASK about details of the case that are on the public record, surely; or is that off limits now?  Some ANSWERS provided may well be inappropriate, but a simple QUESTION cannot possibly be, unless it assumes things the questioner is not entitled to assume, and I see no evidence of that from .  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  08:12, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Jack, you need to know two things: This is nto an appropriate discussion for the refdesk. Please just drop it. Guy (Help!) 13:42, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) This matter is sub judice, commenting on cases oin progress may amount to contempt of court.
 * 2) A statement can be defamatory even if it is true.
 * Then I need to completely revise my understanding of the English word "comment". The OP asked for some factual material, viz. what exactly Pistorius told the police as his reason for doing what he did.  That is a million miles from "commentary" in my understanding of the term.  If this is still somehow an inappropriate enquiry, can you explain where the line is drawn?  How come we can have an article on the case, but nobody seems allowed to ask questions about it?  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:37, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Update: I have now finally tracked down the information I sought, and it demonstrates I was well within my rights to ask for it, and that the original OP, was completely entitled to ask the question he did on the Ref Desk, and that this entire thread here at BLPN should never have existed.  See User talk:JackofOz.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  01:00, 14 March 2014 (UTC)


 * May I remind people, as I did on WT:RD that hatting WP:BLP violations is generally a dumb idea? The only common reason to hat relating to BLP is if you want to stop further BLP violations. But if a BLP violation has already occured, then there's rarely a good reason to keep it on the RD and hatting definitely doesn't help much with the BLP violation, it may even make it worse. As I also mentioned on WT:RD, I'm not commenting specifically on whether or not a BLP violation occured, simply dealing with silly hats. Nil Einne (talk) 20:26, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Are you suggesting, Nil, the entire thread be deleted? Or the currently hatted beginning with its exposition of supposed facts?  I have no problem with that.  I think it's clear from Guy's comment whatever certain ref desk regulars want, the place is not a free for all in regard to BLP.


 * I'd like a comment from Guy or someone else here not involved with the ref desk comments themselves to either say it is fine as is with just Nil's restorations and the original hatting or if some or all of the entire discussion should be hatted or removed. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 20:35, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * It is beyond ridiculous that on some obscure Ref Desk that almost no randomly picked person will ever have heard about, we would need to censor civil and well conducted discussions while in prominent reputable media like CNN you can have discussions on this very same topic that are less well conducted (like yesterday on Anderson Cooper's 360). Both CNN and we will make sure that no BLP violations occur in the articles or the news reports in case of CNN. Here on Wikipedia we do not tolerate gratuitous attacks on living persons on talk pages and other types of unproductive bad behavior. That's good enough and already a lot better than what you see in most news media. Going furhter than that by enforcing some ridiculously broad interpretation of BLP actually makes things worse, because that would bring in selective censorship leading to bias. Count Iblis (talk) 22:16, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Anyone unfamiliar with Count Iblis, should read the screed at the top of his User talk:
 * Count Iblis rejects most of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. He just edits in any way he sees fit to improve Wikipedia. Whether such edits violate Wikipedia's policies is neither here nor there.
 * Count Iblis sticks to the guidelines in the essay: Editing scientific articles as if it were official policy.
 * Count Iblis does not recognize the validity of ArbCom rulings. He calls on all restricted editors to violate their restrictions and on all Admins to unblock editors who are blocked on Arbitration Enforcement grounds.
 * μηδείς (talk) 22:29, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * See WP:IAR, which also makes your question about the BLP violation moot if the thread in question on the Ref Desk can be argued to not be a problem from any reasonable perspective. WP:IAR really says that we are primarily here to build an encyclopedia and we use the rules to help us do that, not the other way around. My experience in recent years has been that this fundamental idea has been overturned by powerful Admins and Arbs, they have changed this place into their fiefdom imposing their rule by enforcing their authority by enforcing rules even at the expense good productive editors. Count Iblis (talk) 22:42, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Bernard L. Schwartz
An editor wants to add negative information and also remove information about Schwartz having been exonerated by the US Justice Department on in a case where Schwarz was exonerated according to multiple reliable sources, including Google books. Relevant discussions are on the article talk and user's talk. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  09:25, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Any advice from the regulars here? Or have they all gone on March break? Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  23:49, 10 March 2014 (UTC)


 * If he was exonerated, then the article should obviously say so. The source used for that claim in the article, though, seems to say that his company was excused from investigation, which I'm not sure is exactly synonymous. Formerip (talk) 00:02, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I just reviewed the article. Needs a lot of work to flesh it out!   The subject text garbled two matters.  There was a campaign finance scandal (allegedly Schwartz personally donated so heavily to get approvals to for Loral to do deals in China) and separately, a there was a specific transfer of sensitive data to China by Loral (not Schwartz personally).  The campaign finance matter ended in 2000 with Schwartz exonerated as per the sources in the article; the scandal over the data transfer was settled in 2002 and was not discussed at all.   I made that more clear in the article and introduced a source.   Conflation of those two matters by both sides in the dispute seems to have driven some of the arguments. Jytdog (talk) 00:28, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you both for taking the time to provide your advice. I really appreciate your assistance. I also thank Jytdog for his edit which further clarified matters using a reliable source. As a further request, I would like to ask you if you could just keep an eye for any further developments from the other editor just in case he raises any other issues. However I am perfectly happy with Jytdog's additions and I do not seek any further modifications. Hopefully, this will be the end of it. Take care. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  01:13, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

I suggest adding: According to a House Select Committee, Loral under CEO Schwartz provided the Chinese government with advice regarding a guidance system for future PRC road-mobile intercontinental ballistic missiles. The Defense Technology Security Administration concluded Loral "committed a serious export control violation" and that the "significant benefits derived by China from these activities are likely to lead to improvements in the overall reliability of their launch vehicles [i.e., rockets] and ballistic missiles and in particular their guidance systems." Loral paid a fine of $20 million, the largest that a company has ever paid under the Arms Export Control Act.

References: http://www.house.gov/coxreport/chapfs/app.html

http://www.house.gov/coxreport/chapfs/ch6.html

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/print/volume-13/issue-4/departments/cots-watch/loral-arms-technology-exports-lead-to-20-million-government-fine.html

This is significant information from reliable sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimjilin (talk • contribs) 14:37, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * That is discussion for the article Talk page. I will say that a) the article already has one sentence about the settlement of the matter and the fine - which I added only because the editors talking there were conflating that matter with the campaign finance investigation that did personally concern Schwartz; b) the suggested detail about that matter is off-topic as it does not personally concern Schwartz; it would go into an article about Loral or China/US relations. Jytdog (talk) 15:28, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I fully agree with all your points . Including your point (b) namely: "...that the suggested detail about that matter is off-topic as it does not personally concern Schwartz; it would go into an article about Loral or China/US relations". Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  17:54, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Are you kidding? Since Schwartz was CEO of Loral the technology transfer of course concerns Schwartz!Jimjilin (talk) 18:32, 12 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Please relax. Schwartz is not synonymous with the company. Company details belong in the company article not in Schwartz's biography. It is apparent that you don't have WP:CONSENSUS to add this WP:UNDUE stuff into the BLP article. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  19:17, 12 March 2014 (UTC)


 * NOT HERE - take it to the Talk page. Jytdog (talk) 19:50, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see the purpose of taking it to the talkpage since I brought the matter to BLPN to ask for opinions about including the material we are discussing here. Further, since we agree on not including the company material the issue as far as I am concerned is settled and I have nothing further to discuss. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις   20:56, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * This page is not for hashing out specific content disputes. Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I think this dispute is specific enough and although it has been resolved, we still need more eyes on it for the time being, given the insistence of the other editor. I also think including this material is undue weight and a BLP violation, not to mention original research. The article talk does not have the visibility of this noticeboard and I think moving it there will let it fester for a long time. Δρ.Κ. λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις   00:36, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Now the same editor uses primary sources in the company article to directly attack Schwartz.

I also checked but could not find any support for the information in the primary source. At the same time the same editor renewed the edit-warring adding WP:UNDUE material in the Schwartz BLP. Δρ.Κ. <sup style="position:relative">λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις  03:53, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

RFC Announcement
A RFC has been opened at WT:BLP regarding adding maintenance categories to mainspace articles based on missing data. Please feel free to review and comment on the proposal. Hasteur (talk) 14:48, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Luke 'Ming' Flanagan


Apparent COI, with the intent of adding positive content, while removing sourced negative as well. Account has asked for page protection, claiming vandalism. Perhaps a return to previous version, with a discussion as to the relevance and necessity of content would be best. JNW (talk) 16:37, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Apurv Gupta
The article on Apurv Gupta seems to have been written to a large extent by Mr Gupta himself, as it contains quite a few peacock terms and references of dubious validity.

Vivek Murthy
The final sentence of this article attributes a statement regarding gun violence and heart disease to Vivek Murthy, but the article cited has this statement as a quotation from an opponent of Murthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.62.199.194 (talk) 20:16, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I removed that sentence on the basis that the source didn't support the claim at all, and as a BLP it should be held to a higher standard. Lankiveil (speak to me) 12:14, 14 March 2014 (UTC).

Marty Ingels
This is an article about a minor performer from the 1960s. 78 years of age, long out of the limelight. When I stumbled upon this article about a week ago approximately one-third of the article consisted of a "Legal Troubles" section recounting some legal issues he's had in recent years. It belongs in the article, for sure, but not as one-third of the entire text. I cut it down to two paragraphs, still arguably too much, and removed it as a separate section.

The separate section on "legal troubles" is continually being reinstated by an editor who mistakenly believes that the cure for a BLP violation is not to cure the violation but to add stuff to the article. Reinstating it in full and as a separate section is clearly contrary to both WP:NPOV as well as WP:BLP ("The idea expressed in WP:Eventualism – that every Wikipedia article is a work in progress, and that it is therefore okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced because it will eventually be brought into shape – does not apply to biographies.") Frankly I think my cut did not go far enough. I request that there be more eyes on this article to forestall further issues. Coretheapple (talk) 13:39, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that the reduced version is more appropriate. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:48, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Do we even need to have even the two paragraphs on the litigation in the shorter version? He's notable because of his role in an old TV series called I'm Dickens, He's Fenster. He is not notable as a litigant. Coretheapple (talk) 14:36, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Perhaps combine into one paragraph, to start -- and fix the dodgy sentence about suing for age discrimination (that will help make it shorter). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:54, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Good idea, that helps. I'm going to see if I can find more stuff on Ingels, maybe from way back when, but my feeling is that there is plenty on his legal issues unless this becomes as long as Lawrence Olivier. Coretheapple (talk) 15:46, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I should add that the user re-adding the material was not quite wrong on one point: it is a perfectly legitimate strategy to add more material to an article to reduce the proportion of "criticism" material. A two paragraph criticism section isn't as much of a problem in a twenty paragraph article as it is in a three paragraph article.  Of course, in some situations it's not always practical to do this, and in this case I think that reducing the amount of that material is quite an appropriate action.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 01:17, 15 March 2014 (UTC).
 * That strategy is specifically prohibited for BLPs. Coretheapple (talk) 21:01, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Startup company ‎ - describing someone as a psychopath...
See Startup_company. --j⚛e deckertalk 16:14, 14 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Gross WP:BLP violation. Revert on sight. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks, much appreciated. --j⚛e deckertalk 16:24, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
 * (ec) Entire section is platitudes about any endeavours by anyone at any time and in any place. Collect (talk) 16:24, 14 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Indeed.  --j⚛e deckertalk 16:31, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Syed Ali Shah Geelani
Could I get some expert assistance at Syed Ali Shah Geelani? Wikipedia editors have been blamed for contributing to rumors that kept Kashmir officials up late into the night, and now the situation is at least according to one source somewhat related to a protest in which a person was killed. I tried to deal with the problem by throwing data at it, but I haven't done so proportionally throughout, I don't understand the underlying politics, and nobody actually from the region is stepping up to edit, perhaps having something to do with threats made about tracking down the last IPs who edited... I'd like to see Wikipedia take this example and turn it from a black eye into something we could be proud of, but it will take more people to do that. Wnt (talk) 03:28, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Gayle McCormick
This is both a question and a comment. In the bio for Gayle McCormick, it says she married and lives happily in Hawaii. However, it also says she died in 1976. How did she die? I saw Smith/her perform in 1969. A few years later, probably in 1976, I heard a rumor that she had died from a drug overdose. Can anyone confirm her death, and also how she actually died.

Thanks,

Smilin' Jack — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:5B0:28FF:1EF0:0:0:0:35 (talk) 04:30, 15 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The article doesn't say she died, it says that her music career ended around then. I haven't been able to find anything reliable that confirms what she left the music industry.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 08:55, 15 March 2014 (UTC).

Hakeem Bello-Osagie
His surname is Belo-Osagie, not Bello-Osagie. It has a single "l", not a double "l" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaluko (talk • contribs) 01:04, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Diezani Alison-Madueke


There's a push to add poorly sourced content re: speculation of extramarital affairs among highly placed officials in Nigeria. JNW (talk) 02:13, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Multiple articles - hoax site
Just a heads-up to editors: Someone is spoofing US Magazine with the domain usmagazine.us and has created numerous death hoaxes (Wayne Knight and Brian Bonsall are two I've seen already pop up on Wikipedia) at that address. I've also seen indirect evidence that the hoaxer also created a spoof of TMZ to spread death hoaxes. Obviously the authentic US Magazine and TMZ are marginal sources at best (although IMO TMZ has proven itself reliable for deaths), but these spoof sites are completely unreliable. I'll post this to ANI so more eyes see it. --NellieBly (talk) 16:48, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Rachel Marsden
Message from the article subject of BLP: Rachel Marsden

My name is Rachel Marsden and I am the subject of this Wikipedia article. For the past week, this biography of me has been subjected to repeated outright defamation and fallacies by an individual who has waged an online campaign of harassment against me in various online forums, and through direct and indirect contact with my family, associates, employers, and clients, since approximately August 2013, the details of which have been included in at least two police reports and a U.S. civil court filing, and are available to anyone who might be interested in viewing them. The individual in question has posted on this article's talk page under both her IP address (resolving, as expected to Kansas City), and under the username "CammieD". A usercheck will serve to verify that this is indeed the same woman targeting me under different accounts. Moreover, this person has recently posted what she believes to be my home address and personal information on Wikipedia, in violation of all privacy laws of the jurisdiction in which I reside. She has made repeated allegations of criminality against a person who has never been convicted of any crime. She has further expressed a desire to obtain financial records related to my privately held company - a fact that should serve to underscore the nature of this individual's bad-faith intentions in targeting this biography. This biography was more or less accurate and complete, and the product of many years of Wikipedian collaboration, prior to this person creating a single-purpose account on February 27th, for the sole and intent purpose of targeting me for yet more of the same kind of ongoing online defamation, stalking and harassment to which she has subjected me, my family, and my employers for several months. Further details and documentation pertaining to this person's activities can be obtained via direct contact with me at rachelmarsden at gmail dot com. I kindly request, in the light of the aforementioned circumstances, that the stable version of this biography which existed prior to this person's targeted and bad-faith involvement please be reinstated and retained. Please feel free to contact me directly should you have any questions. Many thanks (in advance) for your time, effort, and consideration. Kindest regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.132.58.181 (talk) 03:05, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Specifically, what content does your biography contain that you believe should be removed? DavidLeighEllis (talk) 03:11, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note - ANI regarding this IP user and page for legal threats at Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:33, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Blocking was an appropriate response; note also that was blocked indefinitely in 2008. I didn't report the situation myself because I wanted to give Marsden an opportunity to identify any specific problems with the article before being blocked. Of course, no reply to my question was forthcoming. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 05:13, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note that one of the problems identified by the OP has now been revdeleted with suppression (i.e. oversighted), ashamedly without my involvement even though I did see it yesterday and think it was a problem. The OP's commenting style and lack of diffs doesn't make it easy, but it's always helpful to see if the OP has mentioned anything which sounds problematic. For me, the OP did raise at least one obvious BLP red flag and although it wasn't so easy since the talk page is awfully long and the precise comment not that near the end, I did find it. Nil Einne (talk) 17:21, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I corrected a couple more minor issues to remove more excuses for complaint. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:58, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It is very important you not disparage or disrespect the individual who has presented this complaint. Per BLP, please strike your characterization, "excuses".  SPECIFICO  talk  16:54, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Wikihounding me again SPECIFICO? Excuse/reason/whatever... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:10, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Dmitry Medvedev
Fresh eyes on this appreciated. Editor with dynamic i.p. is adding Category:Human rights abuses to the biography of Dmitry Medvedev, accusing him of promotion of genocide in edit summaries and justifying their edit with references to the Nazis and the US Constitution. This is clearly unacceptable per WP:BLPCAT and WP:NPOV. I've tried to engage with the editor on my talk page, but due to their changing ip I'm not sure if the message is getting through. Valenciano (talk) 14:35, 16 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Valenciano, I ask you finish defend the happiness of a large number of people in very terrible day of the world history: http://images.yandex.ru/yandsearch?text=cheka%20red%20terror&uinfo=ww-1007-wh-661-fw-782-fh-455-pd-1 (crimes of the organization, which was created 20 December 1917 year). And without any doubts, happiness vs millions of victims is violation of human rights on very high level. "The promotion of genocide" (this phrase is not displayed for a wide public, by the way). By the meaning (yes: holiday 20 December with approval of the state). If in the topic not will appear comment from administrator of English Wikipedia, when he says that you are right, will rollback of your last edit (Dmitry Medvedev). Time of waiting: 5 of hours from this moment. You personally not must make rollback. 78.106.176.223 (talk) 15:51, 16 March 2014 (UTC).


 * Medvedev wasn't alive in 1917, so I really don't understand your point here. What you're doing here is adding several things together: 20 December was the formation of the Cheka in 1917, Medvedev, according to you, approved it as a public holiday, even though it isn't listed among public holidays in Russia for 2014. Therefore Medvedev is promoting genocide. That's the same as saying that because Angela Merkel led a procession on 9 November, she was celebrating Hitler's revolution. It's logic which doesn't stand up and a blatant violation of WP:SYNTH, WP:OR and WP:NPOV, all of which I'd urge you to read. They will explain to you why addition of a category like that is unacceptable. As I explained to you on my talk page, Administrators on English Wikipedia don't have any special rights to decide one side of a disagreement, so either they or a non-administrator can give input on this. Do not change that again. Valenciano (talk) 17:03, 16 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Your words now have no any meaning (because the US government almost every day says that in Russia are violated human rights). MEANING: Even without any promotion of genocide - Medvedev must be in this category. When the US government says the truth on human rights in Russia.

If you will continue violate memory of victims - administrators will block you for the such relation to memory of killed people (millions). Because they are not bastards, but clever people with the good soul. 37.145.185.49 (talk) 18:06, 16 March 2014 (UTC).


 * Whether Russia did or didn't violate human rights is not the point under debate here. Wikipedia is, thankfully, not written based on the point of view of any government, including that of the USA. There are numerous governments around the world and world leaders which have been accused of human rights violations. Look at the George W. Bush article for example. Do you see a category like War criminals or Human rights abusers in that? No, neither do I and rightly so, because to do so would violate the basic principles of this encyclopedia, like WP:NPOV and WP:BLPCAT. The situation surrounding that holiday is already mentioned in the section Dmitry_Medvedev, although the relevant sentences are currently unsourced. Per WP:NPOV Wikipedia can mention controversies like that (though they should have reliable sources) but what it does not do is take sides on whether critics of a state or public figure are right or wrong. Those are the rules here and I can tell you, having edited here since 2005, upholding those rules will not get me blocked, but that continuing to violate them, as you are doing, could result in a block for you, especially if you add that category again. Valenciano (talk) 18:30, 16 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I am almost sure that you are agent of Medvedev to save reputation of Medvedev instead bad truth. By this reason your words have no meaning else more. With very huge perseverance you try defend this man without any support from other users and administrators. If you will make roll back (you know - violation of rules on Wikipedia). 176.15.250.110 (talk) 19:10, 16 March 2014 (UTC).


 * Adding such loaded language to the biography, is clearly a violation of the WP:BLP policy. You don't have to like the Cheka, you don't like to have Medvedev, but while you're on Wikipedia you do need to follow the WP:NPOV policy.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 10:41, 17 March 2014 (UTC).


 * It is hard for me to understand you. Maybe it is hard for you to understand us.  POST HTTP:// LINKS TO WHAT YOU HAVE READ.  (or bibliography if it is not online)  It is OK if it is in Russian.  Don't just talk and talk without listing the sources. Wnt (talk) 16:52, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Craig S. Morford
A former acting U.S. Deputy Attorney General has an entry that is overly long, unbalanced and poorly sourced. The entry has been edited to support the claims of minor figures who believe they were wronged during Morford's career as a public corruption prosecutor. The insertions are tendentious and unsubstantiated, at best, and irrelevant regardless because they involve fringe claims of no broad importance. I'm a journalist who was asked by Morford's current employer (Cardinal Health) to correct the entry. I'm being paid to do so. I wrote an entry that's neutral, shorter, properly sourced and similar in style and proportion to the other entries listed on the Wikipedia page for Deputy AGs. The current entry is classified as a stub. I'd like to substitute a just-the-facts version for the current one but have not yet done so. I post here for advice. Thanks.

*  *   * ''Here's an example of how the entry has been edited to focus on a fringe figure (Detore) in the corruption case of Rep. Jim Traficant and how it uses questionable sourcing (Traficant's defense of himself on C-SPAN when he was expelled from Congress). These claims didn't make it into news reports of the thoroughly covered Traficant case (thus, no reliable published sources) and are clutter in an encyclopedia entry that exists because a person served as Deputy Attorney General.''

On July 16, 2002, the House Committee Standards of Official Conduct convened a misconduct hearing and heard testimony from Richard Detore, who testified on Traficant's behalf (broadcast on C-SPAN).[7]

Detore testified that the prosecutor, Craig Morford, was allegedly witness tampering, committing prosecutorial misconduct related to the alleged Youngstown, Ohio's Cafaro Company's involvement in tax fraud and mafia money-laundering. During Detore's second interview, Morford threatened that the IRS would audit him if he did not testify according to a "script", and that he would prove Detore committed bank fraud, which was false. Morford continuously attempted to harass, agitate and intimidate, "yelling, screaming, and throwing papers at" Defore for being "uncooperative", and warning him he "was getting on the wrong train". Detore refused to lie for anyone for any reason, and refused to testify. Detore's home was invaded and ransacked. Morford had granted him direct and indirect immunity, but denied it, after Detore refused to testify. "It was a process by ambush...an out-of-body experience."

Even with exculpatory evidence, Morford indicted Detore with one count of conspiracy to violate the Federal Bribery Statute by serving as liaison between his former employer, U.S. Aerospace Group, and Traficant, but was acquitted[8] by a jury. See C-SPAN videos: here[9][10][11]

Ohio Congressman Ted Strickland was so disturbed by these sworn televised allegations of DOJ misconduct that he publicly called for an investigation.[12] The DOJ 'internal affairs'[13] ignored Strickland, never investigating either the sworn military earwitness affidavit[14] or the attorney billing records [15] that corroborated the dates/times of harassing witness tampering phone calls testified to on C-SPAN and in the affidavit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dcauchon (talk • contribs)
 * Is the current text of the article your preferred version? It's not too bad, although I don't have a deep understanding of the case.  Certainly, the material that has been removed reports allegations as facts, and backs them up merely with primary sources of people making allegations, which strikes me as deeply unsatisfactory.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 12:27, 17 March 2014 (UTC).

Suicide of Phoebe Prince
I am concerned that the current article on the Suicide of Phoebe Prince is unencyclopedic, contains far too much detail about what is essentially a news item without covering the wider issues, and as a result of this, has a capacity to cause serious harm to those involved and affected.

To give an idea what I am talking about, I have created a dummy article User:Martin Hogbin/sopp to show how I think the article could be more encyclopedic and conform to our BLP policy. Input from new editors is welcomed. Martin Hogbin (talk) 11:04, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I went to college up the road from her town and thus became fairly familiar with her passing my freshman year of college. Apparently, I also created the article in 2010 over a redirect, but besides that, I don't understand why this merits removal, as no one's name is mentioned here. If you want to see real BLP violations, check out the version that I created. In terms of removing the information in your proposed sandbox, that material has stayed there for years, and removing it would be counterproductive to what was added over the past almost four years to the article. Finally, this isn't a BLP issue, as the people mentioned by name in that article are not at risk for being libeled in any way, as we have also removed the names of those involved. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 20:54, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Martin and I partially disagree about some specifics in this regard, so I thank Martin for seeking more opinions here. (I agree with what Kevin just said.) For a specific example, please see Talk:Suicide of Phoebe Prince. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:40, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, please do look at that link and join in the conversation.


 * WP:BLP is not just about libel it is about doing harm to people. Martin Hogbin (talk) 12:15, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Clark Aldrich
There is a troll chat room called GetOffMyInternets that is using Wikipedia to harass Clark Aldrich by adding the undocumented and untrue line, "born Clark Wezniak" to the Clark Aldrich entry. This is part of a continuous and ongoing cyber harassment campaign against many bloggers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Intrepid French Learner (talk • contribs) 17:14, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Conduit, the magazine of the Department of Computer Science at Brown University, have an article about him. He studied there. They refer to him as Clark Wezniak Aldrich (see pp 6-8). That's a good source that could be used for the article, which seems to be lacking sourcing required by WP:BLP at the moment. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Sean.hoyland  - talk 17:39, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Bradley Pierce


Just a few eyes on this one - some grossly inappropriate material added by an IP and account (already blocked) that had to be revdel'ed. Reported via OTRS. § FreeRangeFrog croak 21:26, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Watchlisted. Bjelleklang -  talk 11:10, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Funderburke
The author(s) of this article have quite an axe to grind regarding Coach Bob Knight. Wikipedia is not a forum for this sort of thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.190.198.95 (talk) 06:31, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It does come across as unduly negative, although I don't know how much is accurate, as much of it was unsourced. At any rate, the bulk of the content was a copyright violation from teh original source, so I've reverted it to the pre-copyright problem state, which also seems to have made it a lot more neutral. - Bilby (talk) 06:50, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Babu Thiruvalla
Self made article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.6.159.176 (talk) 22:11, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

14th Dalai Lama
Birtherism has received academic attention and media coverage, and yet is omitted from the featured Barack Obama article because its an extreme minority position (WP:BLP). The issue of Shugden is even less significant as the general public has not heard of Shugden. Robert Thurman describes the tiny Shugden cult and its orchestration by the Chinese government: WP:BLP states: "the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all." The Controversy section I deleted (whose very existence was a violation of WP:CRITS and something not found in featured Wikipedia articles) made reference to the Western Shugden Society. Columbia professor Robert Barnett says "the Western Shugden group's allegations are problematic...The Western Shugden Group is severely lacking in credibility". Inserting Shugden material would be a double standard (compared to the Barack Obama article), and would fuel the rampant NKT activity on Wikipedia. Heicth (talk) 01:00, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * "The cult of Dolgyal Shugden is that of a minor angel or demon, and never has been mainstream"
 * "The members of the cult do not come from numerous Tibetan sects"
 * "The cult and agency attack campaign is futile since its main claims are so easy to refute."
 * "substantial funding from, the United Front department of the People's Republic of China"
 * "operatives of the "United Front Work Department" of the People's Republic of China, the agency in charge of dealing with China's "minority nationalities," sees the cult as a potential wedge they hope to drive between the Dalai Lama and his people and between him and world opinion."

Joseph Mercola
Removed unreferenced, potentially libelous content from the Joseph Mercola page (clearly indicated this was reason for removal) only to find it’s been restored. Specifically, the lede describes Dr. Mercola as an “alternative medicine proponent” with link to wiki page for alternative medicine which states alternative medicine is “not based on evidence” and “not based on scientific method”, while Dr. Mercola is a licensed osteopathic physician and as such would be trained in evidence based medicine/scientific medicine (ie osteopathic medicine does not qualify as alternative medicine)   Additionally, the lede states Dr. Mercola is a member of numerous “alternative medicine organizations”. There are references attached to these sentences, but the references do not support either of these claims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Mercola&diff=598922034&oldid=598697508

Talk:Joseph Mercola shows concerns that the article does not represent NPOV have been brought up numerous times, yet it appears vigilant editors have maintained a non-NPOV article. Added the unbalanced tag twice but it was repeatedly removed.

Quick summary of the rest of the article shows other concerns such as:

-What appears to be undue weight given to a negative opinion piece editorial from Business Week which is critical of Dr. Mercola.

-Using a source called “QuackWatch” which exaggerates FDA complaint against Dr. Mercola instead of simply factually referencing the actual FDA complaint.

-Using a dead link to a provocatively titled article called “Can AZT and Other “Antiretrovirals” Cause AIDS?” to make it appear Dr. Mercola doesn’t believe the HIV virus causes AIDS. Located an active link for this article and the actual article states Mercola believes antiretroviral medication side effects can include immune suppression with references included for these claims.

http://www.omsj.org/issues/can-azt-and-other-antiretrovirals-cause-aids

Could someone objective please look over this article? It appears not to be NPOV, and even more concerning, it appears it contains unreferenced, potentially libelous, content. M endaliv, you were very helpful on Jahi McMath page, would you mind taking a look? Thanks.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 03:28, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 * There's no contradiction at all in the notion that someone with a proper medical degree might start selling bogus supplements and promoting ridiculous claims (e.g. that HIV is not the cause of AIDS). If the sources don't support the claims, then of course revision is needed, but I don't see a problem with the underlying notion that "alternative medicine" is the right frame here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:18, 10 March 2014 (UTC)


 * User:BoboMeowCat is a relatively new user who is too eager to go to the boards. Jumped right into the Paracetamol article and tried to edit war in (received a block for it) content over-emphasizing side effects there and filed a COIN complaint against editors upholding MEDRS, which was snowball-closed.   Now has moved to alt medicine topics and it appears that the same WP:IDHT behavior is happening there. This complaint, like the COIN posting, is without merit.  Mercola is a proponent of alt med and much of what he advocates falls within WP:FRINGE; the article is well sourced and abides by BLP and NPOV. Jytdog (talk) 12:56, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

User:BoboMeowCat is absolutely correct. The page seems to have been constructed by people who have negative, personal opinions on Joseph Mercola and his practice, and editors with similar viewpoints have contributed to this article getting away with being biased. The lack of proper sourcing and false information is concerning, and the page needs serious editing. Adamh4 (talk) 18:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 * User:Adamh4 is also a new user; has been an editor for about 2 weeks and was already complaining about this article on his/her 2nd day as an editor here and here and here and here - already getting into WP:IDHT territory on the Talk page there, and making very strong statements while just getting started.  Two new editors going down the warrior path too early :( Jytdog (talk) 19:06, 10 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I understand that I am a new user, but I didn't realize any of my comments on any of these pages would be considered disruptive; I thought I was just acting the same as all the other users I was learning from! Maybe I got carried away with my comments, but that doesn't change how I feel about them, although it will change how I voice them. I guess I just believed I have been following the guidelines this whole time, and became over zealous after a certain amount of discussions. I apologize for coming off as I did, like I said, every day is another learning experience! I will be sure to tread more carefully from now on though -- thankfully I have experienced editors to help me out as I go! Adamh4 (talk) 19:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 * you have not been dispruptive! you are just heading down that road.  i characterized you to provide admins and editors reviewing here with some context.  everybody is a volunteer here and very busy. (may have been inappropriate - i screw up sometimes) Jytdog (talk) 19:24, 10 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I was pinged by Bobo's initial post. I'm really not familiar enough with the source material to respond other than to say I think this is the wrong board; the concern for libel is in my view mere window dressing of what is more of a series of NPOV concerns. But on those grounds, I can't really say much other than I know of Ronz and QuackGuru, and don't believe they're the type to intentionally engage in presenting an unbalanced viewpoint. I should say, further, that I agree with the statements of principles on the talk page, indicating that NPOV does not mean we don't present the opinions of others: we do present other viewpoints, balancing them according to WP:DUE. In fact, one application of WP:DUE would be to conclude that presenting no opinion viewpoints would be to give undue weight to the minority viewpoint. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 19:18, 10 March 2014 (UTC)


 * My main concern is the improperly sourced or unsourced content. However, what appears to be NPOV concerns may have a lot to do with how such content got in there in the first place.


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joseph_Mercola&oldid=598922034


 * For example, the lede states Mercola is an “alternative medicine proponent” referenced by this article –


 * http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2003-05-25/news/0305250393_1_food-pyramid-diet-guru-osteopathic


 * This article does not support such a statement.


 * The lede also states Mercola is a member of several alternative medicine organizations supported by this reference.


 * http://www.aapsonline.org/newsletters/apr94.htm


 * …but this ref only shows Mercola’s membership in the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, which is not an alternative medicine organization.


 * That’s only the first 5 lines of text, which is all I’ve had time to go through, but as Adamh4 also points out, there appear to be serious referencing concerns throughout.


 * Isn’t it WP policy that improperly sourced or unsourced content is to be removed immediately on BLP (especially if potentially libelous)? I could remove again, but I’m fairly sure vigilant editors will restore it.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:34, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It isn't particularly wise to use BLP bluster to remove things on the basis of a faulty understanding. The reference that supports "alternative medicine" in this context is .  Per WP:LEAD, not everything in the lead has to have an in-line source, as long as the source is given in the body.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:54, 10 March 2014 (UTC)


 * According to WP:LEAD “The lead must conform to verifiability and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and quotations, should be supported by an inline citation.”


 * Also, the reference provided above is an opinion piece. It seems an opinion piece doesn’t authoritatively support the claim that Dr. Mercola is a proponent of medicine which is not based on research and medicine which is not based on scientific method. (There’s a link to wiki page for alternative medicine in the lead which defines alternative medicine that way). Seems maybe with the reference provided we could reasonably say something like “at least one commentator considers Mercola an alternative medicine proponent”, but it doesn’t seem this should be the opening sentence in the lead.  Additionally, that reference doesn’t support the claim that Mercola is a member of several alternative medicine organizations.   That statement is still unsupported.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 00:31, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Sigh you can WP:wikilawyer all day long, bobomeowcat.  Mercola is way way out there - not part of the medical mainstream.  He brags about being out there, opposed to the mainstream.   The laundry list of his alternative medicine stances is as long as my arm. (here is one of the many laundry lists you can find about him).   As long as you keep refusing to accept that Wikipedia is very  much mainstream with regard to health information (as you have been pointed to many times, please read WP:MEDRS, all the drama boards in the world are not going to help. Jytdog (talk) 00:53, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Read the link on WP:wikilawyer and curious why you think it applies here. Nomoskedasticity brought up WP:LEAD.  Quoted WP:LEAD.


 * Previously read WP:MEDRS and I'm not sure how it defends use of an opinion piece from BusinessWeek. Seems a much better way to comply with WP:MEDRS would be to describe controversial claims made by Dr. Mercola, and then use reliable medical sources to show how Mercola’s views differ from mainstream medical practice. I’m concerned you appear to repeatedly mischaracterized me, but I’d rather just stay on topic.


 * I agree Mercola is out of the mainstream. A statement regarding Mercola being out of the mainstream seems like it would be a much better statement for the lead than an improperly sourced statement regarding him promoting medicine not based on research or medicine not based on scientific method.  Stating Mercola is out of the mainstream or even stating that Dr. Mercola is downright controversial seems like something we could actually support with solid references.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:11, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * ok... so medicine that is out of the mainstream, is "alternative medicine" on Wikipedia - by definition. That is the spirit and letter of MEDRS and FRINGE and NPOV.  You can try to Wikilawyer away the content and sources that describe him as such, or you can work to improve the article so that he is described as per Wikipedia norms.  No article on Wikipedia is perfect; all articles can be improved.   Either way, this is not a matter for BLPN - this is a matter of you understanding Wikipedia norms and working within them.  Jytdog (talk) 04:21, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Actually, on Wikipedia, according to the linked page for alternative medicine, alt med is medicine not based on evidence and medicine not based on scientific method.
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alternative_medicine&oldid=598490686
 * However, I can see why you assumed it meant that because in the popular press, the phrase “alternative medicine” appears to simply mean what you stated above as anything outside of standard or mainstream medical practice. This discrepancy in meaning seems to add additional problems to relying on non-WP:MEDRS sources from the popular press such as the Business Week article. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 05:16, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Since there are no real BLP issues here, and the matter should be dealt with on the article's talk page, we need a snowball close here. This venue is not the right place to deal with this, especially since possibilities at the talk page have not been exhausted.

I suggest that Bobo also respond to questions on the article's talk page, instead of persisting here. He seems to lack understanding of many of our policies. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:25, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Inclusion of improperly sourced potentially libelous content is the issue that caused me to post here. Also, which policies do you think I don't understand?  --BoboMeowCat (talk) 12:40, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Responding again to this issue, I think you're jumping the gun at calling the content you removed "potentially libelous", as well as rapidly reporting it to a specialty issue noticeboard. Bobo, with respect, your style of argumentation is a type not well suited to Wikipedia. You sound very much like you're trying to wikilawyer a minor balancing issue—and that's what this is at bottom—into a full-blown dispute by claiming that the local consensus at that page, or within the Medicine WikiProject and related projects, directly contravenes WP:BLP. That is not what's happening here, and the sooner you approach this as the basic content issue that it is, the sooner it will be resolved or explained in a manner that at least lets all parties understand the reasoning behind the outcome. The end result of this style of discussion is little more than a trainwreck. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 16:46, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I think that a lot of Bobo's claims are accurate, but I wouldn't necessarily label the information on the page as "libelous." I think that there are a number of things on this page that could be perceived as one sided or biased, and that should be balanced out with some added information to the page. There is a great amount of negativity of the page, but I think this stems from the negativity that stems from the media's view of Mercola. Nonetheless, I think there could be some balancing done. Adamh4 (talk) 20:16, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * User:Adamh4, Please note that WP:NPOV does not mean that we avoid calling a spade a spade. Where Mercola holds WP:FRINGE views, and he definitely does on several points, we do not dance around that. We state it clearly. If you have not read WP:FRINGE please do so.  Please remember that as an encyclopedia that anyone can edit people come here with all kinds of WP:pseudoscience (that wikilink is to a section of the NPOV policy - please check it out too) and want to claim it is true.  This is why we stand very very strongly rooted in mainstream science.  Otherwise this place would be a disaster.  This means that we will say things that appear "negative" about Mercola, but as Mendaliv wrote just above your post, following our policies on health-related content does not conflict with BLP nor with NPOV. I hope that makes sense to you!  Jytdog (talk) 20:52, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I just think saying Mercola promotes medicine not based on evidence and medicine not based on scientific method is problematic. There are no solid references to support such a claim and it’s the opening sentence of the lead.  As far as I can see, including an improperly sourced statement claiming a doctor promotes medicine not based on evidence and not based on scientific method seems to be a problem that isn’t erased by the fact that Dr. Mercola is clearly out of the mainstream and is controversial. Browsing Mercola’s online articles indicates he seems to base his controversial medical claims on his interpretation of research and he tends to include at least somewhat scientifically plausible explanations. Which I’m not claiming makes him right, but unless we have solid references showng Mercola promotes medicine not based on evidence or promotes medicine not based on scientific method, then calling him an “alternative medicine proponent” (along with wiki page link that defines alt med that way),  seems to violate BLP with respect to improperly sourced content, and considering this is being said about a liscenced physician, it seems it could be potentially libelous. which is why I posted here.
 * As you were at the acetaminophen article, you are fast approaching WP:IDHT with respect to refusing to hear the many explanations that have been offered to you about WP:FRINGE and WP:MEDRS and how they relate to how we deal within Wikipedia with claims made by those, including Mercola, who advocate alternative medicine. What you are saying may or may not be reasonable in a forum outside Wikipedia, but not here. We have policies and guidelines that govern how we do things that you are not dealing with. Jytdog (talk) 13:31, 13 March 2014 (UTC)


 * It appears Adamh4 is most concerned that the Joseph Mercola article is not balanced and violates NPOV, and I tend to agree that’s also a concern here, but my main concern is improperly sourced content. Maybe our respective arguments are getting confused. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 13:02, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Bobo, you think it's "problematic" that we follow the multiple RS which associate the words "alternative medicine" with this man. Maybe you should consider his behavior to be problematic. The FDA certainly does. It's his fault, not ours. If he doesn't want that association, then he should change his behavior. It's our job to follow the sources, so stop the IDHT behavior before you get topic banned or blocked. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:29, 13 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Jytdog, curious that you broke up my response above by putting your comment in middle.


 * BullRangifer You mentioned IDHT, yet seem to have responded as if you didn’t hear where it was indicated that the popular press uses phrase “alternative medicine” to mean anything outside of standard medical practice, while on Wikipedia we have it defined differently as medicine not based on evidence or medicine not based on scientific method.
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alternative_medicine&oldid=598490686
 * The problem is we don’t have any sources which support that Dr. Mercola promotes medicine not based on research or not based on scientific method. It would be interesting if I got blocked or banned for bringing this to attention of BLP noticeboard.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 14:18, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I think a block or ban may be a good idea when an editor is incapable of working with other editors or reading what sources and articles actually say. --Ronz (talk) 16:38, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * User:BoboMeowCat - the basic principle on Wikipedia that you are not hearing, and that you appear to be trying wikilawyer around, is that what matters with regard to WP:FRINGE, is where the individual stands with regard to the scientific consensus. If you are outside the consensus, you are by definition WP:FRINGE.  As you have already agreed and as the sources show, Mercola is admittedly and aggressively outside the consensus.  Please understand this basic principle, and please stop making wikilawyering arguments around it.  It is not relevant if someone cites some scientific publications to support their position - many folks on the FRINGE do that.   Your failure to recognize this thus far, is why we are saying that you are in territory of WP:IDHT. Thanks Jytdog (talk) 12:49, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow, how is this guy not in jail? A D.O. must understand the harm caused by promoting AIDS denialism, missed vaccinations, etcetera. LeadSongDog come howl!  14:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all the tips everyone, I appreciate you all giving me something to think about as far as interpretation of the rules! Also, thanks for trying your best to teach bobo how Wikipedia works; it seems like he still has a lot to learn as far as etiquette. Adamh4 (talk) 20:11, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

David Kagen
The website on David Kagen, http://www.davidkagen.com/html/newhome.html is out of date and incorrect. The correct website is www.davidkagen.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.251.159.49 (talk) 15:49, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thankyou. I've updated the information. - Bilby (talk) 07:25, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

John Mutton (Canadian politician)
John Mutton (Canadian politician) The author of this article, who the page claims may be close to the subject, repeatedly has deleted neutral comments which are well-sourced in order to preserve a one-sided image. Please review edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.208.187.248 (talk) 06:22, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Removal of alleged offences for which the person concerned was not found guilty is in accordance with WP:BLP. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:27, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Jeff Stein
The link within the bio pic portion of the article has the name www.jeffstein.info. That leads to a Chinese language wev page that is some kind of spam filler page when translated...references to "non-nude" women, etc. While ironically comical it is totally irrelevant to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.77.83 (talk) 07:21, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thankyou. I've removed the link. - Bilby (talk) 07:31, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Leonid Kozhara
The article in English states he was born in 1983, but the Ukraininan article states his year of birth was 1963. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.114.12.186 (talk) 10:29, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you. It appears to have been vandalised. That, or he finished his university degree with he was 3 years old. :) I've changed it back. - Bilby (talk) 12:16, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Andrew Slattery
Andrew Slattery the poet is not the same person as Andrew Slattery the screenwriter. The poet is Australian, the screenwriter lives in Newcastle, England. OTRS 2014031910000281 applies. Editors of have decided, based on the fact that the link seems to exist in a few external sources, that they are one and the same. I see no reason at all to dispute the correspondent in the ticket. The email address would simply not be available were the claim bogus, as far as I can tell. Guy (Help!) 13:46, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm one of the other editors Guy mentions. This isn't the first time this subject has been to BLP/N (or AN), but I'd welcome fresh other editors' input on the article talkpage where the issue has been discussed for many months. The concern raised is not the authenticity of this and other OTRS emails, but that (based on external sources) the subject is not telling the truth and the cause (or at least intended effect) contradicts our WP:NPOV policy. DMacks (talk) 17:46, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Paul Sandip
Paul Sandip (born 1979) is an Indian Product designer based in DelhiNoida, is the first Indian Product Designer to win the prestigious Red Dot Design AwardRed Dot Design Award twice. He has won numerous international awards and his work has been extensively published and exhibited internationally including the Triennale Museum in Milan, Ambiente Fair in Frankfurt, Red Dot Award Show in Singapore in 2007 and 2010, Avenue of Stars in Hong Kong, Lite-On Awards Show in Taiwan, Design Korea Exhibition/Design Olympiad in Seoul and Alliance Francaise in Delhi. His work - Disposable Mug designed for Indian Railways, is held in permanent collections of the Danish Design Museum in Copenhagen, as an example of Design to improve life! He is known for his simplicity with which he beautifully combine latent needs of consumers with appropriate technology to create highly differentiated products to fuel business growth. Paul specializes in Product Innovation through Consumer Insight & Strategy, Creative Engineering, Styling and Colour/Material Trends. He has designed over 100 products in the last 10 years, many of which have become “Iconic Best Sellers”. The objects designed ranged from Electrical Accessories, Home Appliances, Lighting, Furniture, Kitchenware, Tableware, Children/Baby products, Toys, Stationary, Bath accessories to Footwear.

Early life and background
Paul was born in Kolkata,a city known for its literary, artistic and revolutionary heritage. He graduated as an electrical engineer from Nagpur university. Then he did his post graduation in Industrial design from the National Institute of Design, Ahmedabad, where he won the Design Enterprenuer Of The Year in 2005, and was Awarded by then the Chief Minister of Gujarat Shri Narendra Modi and National Business Incubator (NDBI) at NID.

Career
He started his career in 2005 as a product designer. 2005 saw the beginning of his self initiated project: ‘Useful Art’ – desirable everyday objects! He has also worked for Multinational companies like Whirlpool and LG Electronics. PAUL has been a speaker at CII, IIT Kanpur, EDI Ahmedabad and various other notable institutions. Visiting faculty at NID & NIFT Delhi. Jury Member for the India Design Mark 2013-14, an initiative by India Design Council which seeks to inspire Indian manufacturers to bring to market well designed products.

Lucius Shepard reported dead.
according to this on http://www.sfsite.com/Lucius Shepard died on the 19th. I do not doubt it as has not been well. but do not feel it appropriate for me to amend the article at this point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SimonW11 (talk • contribs) 09:17, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Reports of Lucius Shepard's death on March 18 are now visible in reliable sources and the Wikipedia article has been updated accordingly. EdJohnston (talk) 21:59, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Suggesting a living person should be jailed
Is it appropriate, given the BLP guidelines, that in a thread above an editor suggests that a living person should be jailed? Isn't that tantamount to calling someone a criminal? Thanks. TimidGuy (talk) 16:26, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I asked a simple question, I did not say that he is a criminal. There are several possible answers, none of which have been furnished as yet. He could, for instance, have been found not criminally responsible for various reasons. It could be that someone has been hacking his website to present these falsehoods. It could be that prosecutors have never considered charges, or that they were unable to make them stick, or that charges are still in the courts, or that they settled out of court. He may even be in a jurisdiction which does not consider such actions to be unlawful. I don't think we should be guessing, we should be trying to find out what the explanation is. LeadSongDog come howl!  16:51, 20 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not about what should be but about what is.--SimonW11 (talk) 17:19, 20 March 2014 (UTC)


 * No. WP:BLP applies everywhere, not just articles. So, LeadSongDog, don't do that. § FreeRangeFrog croak 17:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * He didn't actually suggest that Joe should be in jail - it was asked why he isn't in jail, and it looks very rhetorical to me. There is a difference. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 17:49, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Aye. Don't rhetorical questions exist for a reason? If we force editors to make outright declarations, aren't we no better than thieves, stealing away the avenues down which our forefathers backpedaled? I say he worded it well enough. Who here hasn't bent a rule or two on a talk page? InedibleHulk (talk) 17:50, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see "Wow, how is this guy not in jail" as being a BLP violation, but it certainly is WP:SOAPBOXing, does nothing to improve the encyclopedia, and adds fuel to the argument that Wikipedia is biased. We all need to stick to the question of whether such pages reflect what is in the sources, and to keep going back to that question when someone accuses us of bias. Personal opinions like "Wow, how is this guy not in jail" are simply not helpful. --22:08, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Aye on the first two charges, nay on the more serious one of fire-fueling. It's only Wikipedia's voice when there's no username attached (ahem). LeadSongDog, unlike "us", is only human. He has views, but they don't necessarily reflect the views of this station. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:23, 20 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Nope, it's not appropriate, but I also don't think it's worth having a long discussion about which brings even more attention to this remark. So I move that we table this discussion and issue the appropriate trouts.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 22:32, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note for non-US editors; "table" means "withdraw" as opposed to the completely opposite European meaning. Black Kite (talk) 01:03, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Weird. I didn't knew that. Question Time makes a lot more sense now. Gamaliel  ( talk ) 04:11, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
 * And I didn't know the rest of the English-speaking world counted as European. Fun fact. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:02, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Mubin Shaikh
This page is poorly formatted and contains highly subjective opinion with little citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.126.225.180 (talk) 04:30, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Pattern of BLP issues surrounding tech CEOs
Recent edits and  follow a final BLP warning User_talk:Solarlive I issued after previous incidents, in particular Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive196.

I applied a block myself, but quickly realized that an edit or two (without BLP implications) at Google bus protests may leave me "involved", so I reverted the block, and am now reporting here for someone else to figure out what to do with. I'll leave a note for the editor. Cheers, --j⚛e deckertalk 06:19, 21 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Solarlive has made multiple clear and unambiguous WP:BLP violations - I've reverted, but I think this should probably be raised at WP:ANI if it continues. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:09, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Clearly not here to build an encyclopedia, and has the audacity to claim that editors use POV to exclude free thinkers, while deleting content as "POV" on another article. ''' Flat Out   let's discuss it   03:11, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Richard John Taylor
Hi, it looks like Wikipedia may have been used to support a false narrative about this individual; see this article in the Guardian. Article could probably use trimming back to the bare basics and rebuilt. 92.20.13.70 (talk) 11:53, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

mike tranghese
please review the page for this man's biography. It should be about the former big east commissioner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:77FC:4C0:55B9:68C9:21:30D0 (talk) 14:48, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Elizabeth Holmes
Need someone to take a look at Talk:Elizabeth Holmes/Archives/2015. A user is repeatedly adding negative information (diff) using a pseudonymous blog post as a source. Except the user, everyone agrees that the blog post is not a reliable source (see Reliable sources/Noticeboard).

The user insists that the information should remain on article until "the issue is resolved in discussion", despite being told about WP:BLP multiple times. utcursch &#124; talk 14:32, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Resolved for now. The user backed off; thanks NatGertler for chipping in.