Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive198

Abdur Raheem Green
Under the "controversies" section of the article, Mr. Green is reported to have said "Muslims who meet a Jew or a Christian walking down the street, should push them to the side."

The reference links to an article which cites a blog called "Harry's Place". It is on this blog, the article claims, that Mr. Green has made this quote in a video. A search of that blog reveals no such video, and the site itself is on Wikipedia's blacklist.

In fact, the quote may be attributed to the article "Labour and extremism jeremy corbyn and abdur raheem green" on the blog. There is no evidence that Mr. Green made the quotation, as the linked video on the page does not exist. There is a blurb about alleged quotes that Mr. Green has made, but without any citations. It is on someone's personal blog so the source is not reputable.

Mr. Green also is charged with saying "Why don’t you take the Yahudi [Jew] over there, far away, so his stench doesn't disturb us, okay?" on the Wikipedia article. There are two references. The second reference links to a page that is NOT about Mr. Green, and the first to another page that links to a video which does not exist.

These two quotes should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.104.247.109 (talk) 04:18, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * An unreliable source doesn't become reliable just by repetition, and the fact that the reliable source is not stating in its own voice and own words that the quote is true is telling. In the absence of reliable sources for the material in question, I have removed it per BLP. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:58, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * More eyes are needed on this article subject. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:46, 8 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Dear NorthBySouthBaranof, I hope you are well. Pleasew help me to understand why were these sources were considered inadequate? http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/69540/arsenal-ban-islamist-preacher-emirates-stadium and  http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/176773#.U0Q_lpuKDIV   Thanks and regards, George Custer&#39;s Sabre (talk) 18:40, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The first claims that "videos of the preacher had been posted on the Harry’s Place blog." As noted above, the blog is blacklisted from Wikipedia and obviously not a reliable source. I can't even link to it here. The alleged video no longer exists. We cannot use dubious and unavailable information sourced to partisan blogs to make factual claims about a living person.
 * The second claims that "Abdurraheem Green has been quoted as talking of a Jewish “stench” and advocates the killing of homosexuals" but provides no evidence of this quote's existence. The "has been quoted" phrasing is telling - by using that phrase instead of "said," Arutz Sheva is refusing to use its own voice to support the existence of the quote, instead merely passing responsibility to an anonymous, uncited source that cannot be verified. Arutz Sheva is a neo-Zionist news organization with a known partisan slant, much as Newsmax or Truthdig in the U.S., and its claims about persons from opposing ideologies must be closely scrutinized. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:21, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Krista Whitley-Castellarin
Krista Whitley-Castellarin

This person does not meet notability guidelines — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.144.156.126 (talk) 09:28, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * If you feel the article merits removal, you may nominate it for deletion. This noticeboard's purpose is to report serious problems with biographical material. § FreeRangeFrog croak 19:19, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Hamid Aboutalebi
Hamid Aboutalebi is a new article that is bound to get some negative attention due to stories such as this one making this person a potential flashpoint of international relations... I've done some cleanup, but more watchful eyes & careful sourcing will help. &mdash; Scientizzle 17:12, 8 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The above article its a bio about Hamid Aboutalebi, current Iranian envoy to UN, there some of the wikipedia users that add unfounded claims about him that has been expressed in the media but denied by him and no legal grounds for the claim exists. The users insist upon adding an organisation to his past that is denied by him and by the Iranian government. Since this is a bio i tried to remove the part from the article a couple of times but they keep repeatedly pasting the same part after deletion and they have warned me that I will be blocked if i delete the unreliable part !!! I therefore decided to raise the issue with you this is the link of his denial. http://www.iranreview.org/content/Documents/Rohani-s-Special-Achievement-Is-to-Thwart-Iranophobic-Efforts.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cherabtidare (talk • contribs) 17:42, 8 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I've added further sources & request additional help in editing the article to meet WP:BLP., please acquaint yourself with WP:BLP and don't just delete the sourced content. &mdash; Scientizzle 17:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The assertions about his connection to a certain group/activity are backed up by ABC News and the New York Times, two major, reliable news organizations. —C.Fred (talk) 17:53, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The statement that "he was one of the kidnappers" is not supported - no source refers to him as a "kidnapper" and that claim implies that he was among the leaders/people who stormed the Embassy, which is not supported. I have rewritten to state that "he was involved in" which is clearly supported by his own statements. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:05, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, those are good catches. This interview with an Iranian news agency could prove useful as well. &mdash; Scientizzle 18:11, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Ken Calvert
Could I have some eyes on please. There's a request for semi-protection at RfPP on the grounds that IP editors (likely connected to the subject) are removing a particular section, but I'm concerned that the sourcing or the statements in that section is weak. I'd appreciate input from experienced editors here. HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  18:40, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The incident seems to have been covered mostly by the local liberal press, which makes sense since the man is a Republican. But it's been picked up in bios offered by the WSJ and the Washington Times. I trimmed and re-worded it to remove the more prurient parts, and added one source. I don't think removal is merited, so protection might be a good idea. But it was worded rather inappropriately. § FreeRangeFrog croak 19:11, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The Riverside Press-Enterprise is hardly "the local liberal press," I would note. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:55, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * True, I was referring to the OCW, which is owned by Freedom Communications, which has often been styled as "libertarian" but has always seemed to me more like liberal. In any case that's neither here nor there. § FreeRangeFrog croak 20:08, 8 April 2014 (UTC)


 * It's also important to note that one of the IPs maps back to Congress, so care must be taken if they are blocked. § FreeRangeFrog  croak 19:26, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Allegations of "corruption" no matter how phrased are "contentious claims" requiring strong reliable sourcing and we do not repeat allegations at this level. Collect (talk) 20:09, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I am unsure about the "prostitute" bit -- apparently no arrest or conviction? Collect (talk) 20:18, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I admit I only looked at the contentious paragraph and ignored the rest of the article. I elected to call the woman what the sources call her, no more. Also, maybe the title change you made isn't the best-sounding one... I think it's worse! Maybe "Solicitation incident"? § FreeRangeFrog  croak 20:57, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * No claim of "solicitation" and apparently no arrest -- only a newspaper selling ads . I was more than half-tempted to remove it as basically of trivial importance where no consequences appear to have occurred. Collect (talk) 21:07, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I mean, except for the fact that even the most trivial google search shows up that he admitted to having sexual relations with the prostitute in the car..... Hipocrite (talk) 21:14, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * And no evidence of "solicitation" which was the query here ... and no money shown to have been exchange whatsoever, and no arrest and no conviction, and not, all in all, much of anything to scream "whitewash!" about. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:28, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Matt Haag
I'm sorry about how brief this is, but it is fairly simple. The Controversy is biased in favor of Haag, as it does not include his past racism, ban from MLG, or selling MLG accounts. The Rivalries is fairly useless as none of it barred him from anything important, and all rivalries have since been resolved.

Matt Haag — Preceding unsigned comment added by CoDRRuS (talk • contribs)
 * Discussion of negative activities must be impeccably sourced to verifiably reliable sources. Otherwise, they will be removed. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:34, 8 April 2014 (UTC)


 * None of the content in the "Rivalries" or "Controversies" tabs is verifiable. It is hearsay and potentially libelous, as it concerns 2 very prominent members of a community.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Creatingnew (talk • contribs) 21:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Bruce Merritt
There have been some problems on this article with, who claims to be the subject of the article, repeatedly deleting either the whole article or parts. I have tried to deal with it by adding references and speaking to him about wiki policy.

I'm hoping someone here with more experience with bio articles and bio policy can have a look at the article, make any edits that are warranted/needed and arbitrate the dispute. Jamesmcmahon0 (talk) 08:50, 9 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Simple answer - if there are sources that confirm the DoB then cite them. If User:Marshbird is indeed the subject and they wish to take issue with that, they should take a look at WP:BIOSELF and follow the guidance there.--ukexpat (talk) 16:29, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

haji nurul islam
Haji Nurul Islam- Basirhat- All India Trinamool Congress

A small-time zari businessman and resident of Chhoto Jagulia village in Barasat, Islam is a grassroots Trinamool worker and has been the leader of the Opposition in the North 24-Parganas Zilla Parishad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.184.142.130 (talk) 14:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)


 * This is not the correct place to suggest an article (if indeed that is what you are doing). Please follow the process set out at WP:AFC to create a draft article for review once you have satisfied yourself that the proposed subject meets the guidelines set out at WP:BIO.--ukexpat (talk) 16:25, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Miles Plumlee
In the article about Miles Plumlee, it claims he averaged "6.4 flops" per game in his junior year. "Flops" are not an official stat, and there seems to be no source for this make-believe stat. I believe this comment should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.186.16.216 (talk) 15:12, 9 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Appears to have been dealt with for now.--ukexpat (talk) 21:06, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Christie Administration allegations
There are discussions underway now at Talk:Governorship of Chris Christie concerning whether there are BLP issues in material that someone wants to remove from the article. See and. I think more opinions are needed on that point. Coretheapple (talk) 15:21, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I suggest the description is less than apt and complete. A section covering the NJT loss of equipment due to flood had been in place for a reasonably long time when material was added to the effect that Christie  "claimed" certain things and refused to name a person who did not properly act with regard to storing of trains during a flood.


 * There is no connection claimed in any source given directly between Christie and the inaction, nor has any national newspaper published such claims linking Christie to such acts.


 * The first source cited does not even mention Christie,
 * is an editorial blasting Christie so should be considered "opinion' at best,
 * (same newspaper) includes NJ Transit did not respond to questions about whether it falls under civil service or whether the employee is a civil service employee. which suggests the inference that Christie should have known specifically the status of NJT employees is pretty much irrelevant to a section on the loss of equipment in the first place, and lastly
 * (yep - the same newspaper again - it never got national coverage at all) basically only supports a claim that Christie believed that the decision was made by a lower level person, and does not in any way connect Christie with the loss of equipment.
 * In short -- the entire story was covered by a single newspaper (later quoted on DailyKos etc.)but Wikipedia does not use them as separate reliable sources.   IOW, the material makes inferences not found in the sources, the sources (especially the editorial) are not strong sources for contentious claims,  and are all from the same newspaper, and the inferences stated in the edit are "contentious" in themselves. Thanks. Collect (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Vance McAllister
Needs more eyes due to breaking story about his affair. in particular is making repeated (imo) WP:BLP violations - significantly misrepresenting sources. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:25, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Most recent linking to Open Marriage, based on a source which says "McAllister's aides confirmed details in the News Star exclusive, including that McAllister's wife was aware of the affair prior to the video's release."
 * Statements from the jilted husband made after the affair went public, presented as "A campaign donor said" followed by criticism of the subject's religiousness
 * etc.
 * I would ask you to please AGF. You have been making wholesale undos of anyone's edits other than your own. I note you have just recently selected to engage in dialog and initiate discussion on the Talk page and thank you for choosing this more collaborative approach. No BLP "violations" have occurred. Everything is as per BLP and as detailed in multiple RS sources. I, also, welcome additional eyes as we seem to have some serious attempts at sanitizing of this article going on. BlueSalix (talk) 17:31, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * To reiterate, I strongly request additional eyes. We have an aggressive level of sanitizing occurring from U.S. Government staff members regarding this article about a U.S. Government employee. No attempt at collaboration is made, just wholesale deletions of sourced text. BlueSalix (talk) 18:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * What makes you think anyone involved is a government employee? There is no sanitizing. The scandal is covered. Your BLP violations are being removed, because they violate policy. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:36, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The above user is now making absurd and unsubstantiated claims of a "conflict of interest" in an attempt to deflect attention from the fact that they are repeatedly inserting unsourced original synthesis claims about a living person. I am a federal career civil service employee and work for an executive branch agency several thousand miles from Louisiana. I have never heard of McAllister before seeing this request posted on the BLPN today. There exists no "conflict of interest." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:58, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Listen, I've been pretty patient but if you say I've been inserting "unsourced material" one more time, I'm taking this to ANI. This is Wikipedia. You can't lobby for people to be blocked by cranking up the noise machine to 11 and declaring a variety of non-existent violations. You had an issue with a Wikilink I inserted and I removed it when you expressed that concern. That does not equal "they are repeatedly inserting unsourced original synthesis claims." I don't know what the game you're playing here is but stop trying to manufacture drama and start fights. This is juvenile and unproductive in the extreme. BlueSalix (talk) 19:27, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Sure, go for it. Take it to ANI. I dare you. Anyone can see that you intentionally created the inference that the article subject was involved in an "open marriage" and attempted to revert-war this unsourced contentious/negative claim into their biography in the face of multiple objections. You're attempting to deflect discussion of the multiple issues with the biography by making spurious claims of a conflict of interest and now trying to claim you never did anything wrong in the first place. Laughable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:27, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Thomas Libous
Thomas Libous. Members of State Senator's personal staff have been attempting to stop legitimate additions to his page. WIthout the additions added by myself, the page would literally be his exact biography from his personal website here. My edits have simply tried to introduce 100% true and sourced additions to his page. Feel free to lock down the page.
 * I've tidied up the page, removed anything sourced to blogs or primary sources, cleaned up all the references and added cn tags. I agree there are a ridiculous amount of sock/meat puppets reverting on there, so I've added it to Pending Changes for anon/new accounts.  This can always be increased if necessary. Black Kite (talk) 22:42, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Aaron Taylor-Johnson
The career portion of this article makes it sound like he started acting at age six in 2006, when he was born in 1990. There are a lot of other issues in the dates and the order of the events in the career section at least. I think this should be gone through and fixed as there are quite a few grammatical errors as well, at the very least.

Roland Nilsson (athlete)
Hello,

I am the grandson of Fritz Roland Nilsson. My grandfather passed away on February 21, 2014 in Alton, IL. I just wanted to inform those maintaining the article so that they may update it. Here is a link to the funeral home online posting of his obituary for proof: http://www.gentfuneralhome.com/memsol.cgi?user_id=1250575

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.102.2.156 (talk) 03:54, 10 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I found an obituary from a local newspaper. My condolences. Two kinds of pork (talk) 04:41, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Scott Ourth
There is no citation to correlate to the false accusations that were deleted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scott_Ourth&diff=603340315&oldid=602784449http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Scott_Ourth&diff=603340315&oldid=602784449
 * Good job, thank you. I've trimmed it further to remove that entirely as the source only mentions Ourth peripherally. Also removed some stuff referencing primary sources. § FreeRangeFrog croak 19:59, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Yikes, that page was a mess. Good work. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:10, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The deleted material should be reviewed to see if it should be oversighted.--ukexpat (talk) 00:35, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Probably also worth taking a look at Suicide of Tom Pappas. Arbor8 (talk) 22:11, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

This edit to remove was obviously bias. The original facts were cited by primary sources. The first attempt to edit this was a username called Iowa house Dems. The OWIs were clearly cited in the Des Moines register. There we're many collateral sources connecting Ourth's statements to Pappas's death. Rep Dyson also connected the statements to Pappas' reason. Pappas is also cited as talking to Joe Trippi about his reasoning being the Ourth article published that same day right before he lept. — Preceding unsigned comment added by X46920 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * "obviously bias" That's interesting since I had never heard of this man until his bio was reported here. "The original facts were cited by primary sources" See WP:BLPPRIMARY. "username called Iowa house Dems" I'm not them, so that's also irrelevant. As to the rest of your argument, the only source you cited attempting to associate Ourth with the suicide was inappropriate. Assuming for a second that you can find a reliable secondary source that explicitly ties Ourth to the suicide somehow, please bring it up here and we'll discuss. Original research and synthesis of what you think the sources say is not allowed. § FreeRangeFrog croak 22:18, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Got it. I'm not trying to be hostile @FRF. I was discussing the earlier targeting bias of continued removal.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/02/nyregion/house-aide-dies-in-plunge-from-a-hotel.html

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-05-05/news/mn-3657_1_story-aide-killed

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1988-05-02/news/0030440155_1_ourth-pappas-dyson

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19880502&id=rawpAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w-8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6683,2792311

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZSgtlvzaRVMC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=tom+pappas+dyson&source=bl&ots=FL9tzSRSnw&sig=S83f6KbeDqQMP22G08TMPOVQ0o0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=65oFU-nsN8i6yAGux4DAAQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=tom%20pappas%20dyson&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by X46920 (talk • contribs) 22:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I'm not trying to be hostile either, but BLPs are serious business around here and material like the one in this bio tend to give us the heebiejeebies. We just need to be careful and follow policy. Please give me until tomorrow to look at these sources, or if another editor wants to look them over and see if they are relevant to the subject and how the material might be included, all input is welcome. § FreeRangeFrog croak 23:28, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I started finding the content for this and was amazed it was captured. I'm good at background research but still learning the wiki rules and markup. — Preceding unsigned comment added by X46920 (talk • contribs) 23:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * None of these articles so much as suggest that Ourth was in any way linked with misconduct. Most of them do not mention him at all. If anything, they depict Ourth as a victim of inappropriate demands by the aide. Attempting to smear Ourth by association with another person's scandal is totally unacceptable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:49, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

AP article on staff cashing checks for Pappas

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1989/Congressman-Says-Former-Aide-Improperly-Pocketed-Funds/id-2bd70660a9ce93d377b3d63a45a50346 — Preceding unsigned comment added by X46920 (talk • contribs) 23:57, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * This article does not mention Ourth at all. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:42, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Here is the official report. http://www.fec.gov/disclosure_data/mur/2599.pdf

Andy Hira was both implicated in cashing checks and making the allegations against Pappas with Ourth. Ourth's role is very well documented and multiple sources site the allegations as the reason for death. That article citing Pappas and his staff was days before Ourth and Hira made their accusations. True...this could be expanded into a more comprehensive article on the scandal...but Ourths participate as written on his page is true and well documented. His opponent in that house race he is in is also pretty sketchy, James Butler. That guy has a restraining order in Warren County IA in his file for beating his ex girlfriends head against the floor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by X46920 (talk • contribs) 01:02, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Primary sources such as legal filings are not acceptable for use in biographies. We're literally not even going to look at this. Wikipedia is not a scandal sheet or a place to grind axes, which you appear intent on doing. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:55, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

This isn't axe grinding. You acknowledge your bias in your profile. Ourth's statements led to the suicide. The congressional probe about Ourth's allegations said Outh's allegations were false. That is misconduct. His association with this is also notorious. Those facts are all verified by multiple sources. I put the primary sources on here for discussion for your benefit. But you instead use it as a red herring. I can't convince you because you are not looking for sound logic. You are looking for excuses to editorialize and limit information that is harmful to your politic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.216.246.50 (talk) 13:01, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Ourth was clearly linked to this and had culpability to the events. He directly made allegations and the allegations were the result of the suicide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by X46920 (talk • contribs) 01:04, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
 * You assert that he is "clearly linked to this" without providing a single reliable source that implicates him in any wrongdoing. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:55, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

And Ourth's two arrests are clearly documented by the Des Moines Register and he acknowledged them. His arrest is also on the Iowa Court page and the DC one. There was clearly no reason to remove that other than bias from another user. — Preceding unsigned comment added by X46920 (talk • contribs) 01:19, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I request that User:X46920 be immediately banned for personal attacks, outing and legal threats per this diff, in which he claims to have sought me out through social networks and is asserting that he will seek legal action against me. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:40, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
 * If you really want the block, I think you are more likely to get action taken at ANI than here. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:45, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Blocked, per WP:NLT. It's ridiculous how this escalated unnecessarily. § FreeRangeFrog croak 16:50, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Pretty funny that yesterday I was accused of being part of a conservative cover-up and today I'm accused of being part of a liberal cover-up. Wish the trolls would make up their mind which bias I have. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:13, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Koenraad Elst
After and  nominated the BLP article and all of the authors' book articles for deletion, one of the discussions centered on the serious NPOV violations in the article.

They were already brought up at this noticeboard at least once. Some improvements were then made by User:Collect, but they were reverted by another editor. The article may need to be protected.

The NPOV violations were explained in great detail by the subject of the lemma here:
 * The wikipedia lemma on "Koenraad Elst": a textbook example of defamation
 * Meera Nanda against Hinduism

These links say among other things:
 * Well, there you have it. The lemma on me has ended up taking this form because some militant among your contributors purposely wanted to “warn readers” against me. Please cite me an instruction for encyclopedists that names “warning” among the legitimate goals of an encyclopedia.
 * Either you remove the lemma altogether, or you straighten it out and apply the rules of encyclopedia-writing to it. At any rate, in a encyclopedia, I count on being judged for what I myself have said or done, and not for the gossip my declared enemies have come up with.
 * If Wikipedia wants to live up to its promise of being a reliable encyclopedic source, it will strike this and all sentences resembling it from its article on me. At most, it can use me as an example of how it was fooled by some of its all-too-partisan collaborators. Speaking of whom: the history page accompanying my page proves forever that some Wikipedia collaborators wanted to inflict on me the maximum harm possible, an attitude incompatible with work for an encyclopedia.

The old discussion was here:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive178

Someone claiming to be the subject of the article Koenraad Elst has written a long blog post with a set of criticisms of the article. Some of the criticisms seem slightly overwrought but there's probably quite a few which are valid. Anyone want to sort this out? —Tom Morris (talk) 05:59, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Well -- the BLP was replete with "claims" and polemical wording which I did a little clean-up on. Not a shining example of Wikipedia biographies in any case.  More for others to work on.  I specifically did not seek out the blog, bit worked from Wikipedia normal best practice on it.  Collect (talk) 07:38, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear; in this edit reposted an old thread with commentaries of two editors, without signing it himself. --Soman (talk) 09:14, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reminding me to sign. --Calypsomusic (talk) 09:16, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment: Some users are even calling him a fascist in wikipedia space. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Negationism in India: Concealing the Record of Islam --Calypsomusic (talk) 10:43, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Diffs would have been useful. Looks like just one editor, NarSakSasLee, here.  I don't find the claim to be particularly outlandish.  See, for example, .  However, it would probably be best if NarSakSesLee explained what s/he meant.  Lesser Cartographies (talk) 11:29, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Commented. D4iNa4 (talk) 18:11, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

The guy is a nutcase. All of his books belong on his own article - not separated. No one is discussing them except fringe authors. There is also very little criticism or praise of him. He's part of Vlaams Belang (which is fascist) and is coming up with piles of bullshit no one actually cares about. So why have his own articles on irrelevant non-notable books? NarSakSasLee (talk) 12:35, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Look who's talking? One who believes that this book is related to science. If you already know now, that you are Incompetent about these stuff, you can just stop or pursue useful contribution, in place of typing extreme nonsense that violates the policies. I cannot find any source of him being fascist anyway. So stop making up. D4iNa4 (talk) 15:14, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Chris McDaniel
A new editor who is connected to the subject keeps adding and re-adding promotional POV content to Chris McDaniel. Rather than removing wholesale, I've tried commenting it out and working with him on it, but he simply keeps re-adding, and I'm becoming frustrated. I'm hoping some other folks can step in and help me get the article to a good place. Arbor8 (talk) 21:38, 9 April 2014 (UTC)


 * You have been very patient. I have given the user a COI notice. If they continue to edit war, will take it further.--ukexpat (talk) 01:46, 10 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Edit warring continues, some discussion on user's talk page.--ukexpat (talk) 13:23, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Heleen Mees/Willem Buiter
Heleen Mees and Willem Buiter are currently caught up in a court case where Buiter is accusing Mees, with whom he had a prior relationship, of stalking. It has been ugly, with allegations from both sides, but it is moving towards a dismissal presuming that Mees is able to meet certain conditions. This spilled over to WP, where it appears that people connected to the two parties were edit waring to write an account that is favourable to one side or the other on each of the two biographies. This went back and forth for a while, eventually resulting in semi protection. Unfortunately, the editor who seems connected to Mees, User:Bmwz3hm, was autoconfirmed, so they made their changes stick while the other party was cut off. I've asked the editor to refrain from directly editing the article due to their apparent COI, and attempted to reach a small compromise about what to cover, but haven't had much luck. I'm very concerned that we're only getting one side, and that a person with a COI is editing an article regarding a currently active court case.

My preference is for minimal coverage, simply stating that there is a case and that there are moves towards a dismissal, but any opinions would be much appreciated. My concern is that full coverage would require a lot of material from both sides creating weight issues, but I'd rather than that only presenting a single POV account. Current discussion has been at the editor's talk page. - Bilby (talk) 14:34, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Kermit Gosnell
There is an RFC that may be of interest to this noticeboard Talk:Kermit_Gosnell Gaijin42 (talk) 15:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Judy Greer
The birth name of Judy Greer is Judith Therese Evans. She says this in her new book. I think it's on google books if you wanna check. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matchstick wizard (talk • contribs) 19:51, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Nela Vitosevic
I prodded this, because it appears to be at least in part an autobiogrpahy. None of the sources are on Roman alpahbet, much less English. There is no real allegation of notability. However, I think it can be fixed, which is why I am listing it here. Bearian (talk) 22:16, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Bill Geist
The article says Bill Geist started his career in 2014. I don't know the correct date but I'm sure 2014 is not correct. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.173.140.183 (talk) 15:21, 11 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Looks like simple vandalism, reverted.--ukexpat (talk) 17:50, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Indiggo
On this edit User:Epeefleche Is insting on the fact that the subjects are "american" with the source being a youtube video (which claims citizenship not nationality), this is not a reliable source for something as sensitive as nationality. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:53, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Background is here: article talkpage discussion, editor talkpage discussion, reverts and edit summaries. --Epeefleche (talk) 21:27, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree with CombatWombar42 - Youtube has been shown time and time again to not be a reliable source. For a BLP, anything claimed has to be backed up by reliable sources, youtube doesn't cut it.  KoshVorlon . We are all Kosh   16:14, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Have your read the diffs? That point to official Youtube channel, official Twitter channel, etc.?Epeefleche (talk) 08:08, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Pavel Gubarev
Is it acceptable to label someone a neo-Nazi based on a rumor? Pavel Gubarev is (or at least was) a member of the Communist Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine. The article now claims that he was a member of the neo-Nazi Russian National Unity paramilitary group. The same claim is now repeated verbatim in the lede section of article on the Donetsk People's Republic. The "reliable" source for the claim is respected but somewhat partisan historian Timothy Snyder. In an article in the New Republic he attacks the Russian separatist movement in Ukraine by associating it with right-wing neo-Nazism. The claim he makes about Gubarev is however purely based on a rumor, and he reports it as such. Quote: In Donetsk Gubarov was known as a neo-Nazi and as a member of the fascist organization Russian National Unity. Being a Communist a leader of a "People's Republic", any association with Nazism would have a huge negative impact on Gubarev's character.

It should be noted, that Gubarev has been arrested for the last month and unable to communicate with lawyers or family. (In fact, rumors claim he is in a coma.) the claim only surfaced after his arrest, so he has been unable to address it. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:55, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

P.S. – This article is at the heart of WP:ARBEE disputes. I advise editors to use extreme caution. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:02, 10 April 2014 (UTC)


 * "was known" is not a "rumour". Note that there is also a second source provided for the claim: . The speculation as to whether being associated with Neo-Nazism would disqualify Gubarev in term's of his political ambitions is original research, and wrong one at that: see National Bolshevism. Maybe Petri's being naive. Basically, groups such as Russian National Unity adopt the ideology (adopted to Russian, rather than German, nationalism) and the tactics - which is why reliable sources describe them as "neo-Nazi" while also glorifying the Soviet Union. Honestly, when you get that "far" on the political spectrum, the "far-right" and "far-left" meet. It's not uncommon. See also the support for Putin's takeover of Crimea from various European far right groups such as Jobbik or the Belgian Parti Communautaire National-Européen (note that "Communautaire" - nothing strange in that). It's actually quite common and there's no reason to be surprised.
 * More sources Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:27, 10 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Or you can just type in the appropriate search phrase into Google images and see for yourself, photos of him in uniform, sporting the swastika-like Rnuflag.jpg insignia and all.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:31, 10 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The fact is also mentioned in the Russian Wiki article on Gubarev. The lines between far-right and far-left are especially blurred in Russia, this Russian National Unity for example supported the August coup, too. Lokalkosmopolit (talk) 21:36, 10 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The Russian language Wikipedia does not seem to make any association between Russian National Unity and Alexander Barkashov with neo-Nazism or World Union of National Socialists. Russian National Unity has multiple splinter groups using the same name. It seems like a generic label for multiple organisations, almost like Sovetskoye Shampanskoye nowadays. From the Russian sources we cannot tell which of the multiple groups Gubarev (allegedly) belonged and if this group had any connection with neo-Nazism. (And yes, National Bolshevism is a strange creature. :-) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:29, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Roy Wood. Not Ulysses
Can somebody give me advice on this old chestnut? I just looked at Roy Wood and noticed somebody yet again thinks his real name is Ulysses. A book search brings up a number of hits in reliable sources, but nevertheless I remain totally unconvinced. Imagine the scene, it's 1951, you're a week into primary school in Birmingham, you've got a silly name - come on, what parent would inflict such horrible pain and suffering on a small child? How can we settle this one way or another? Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   19:19, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * If it cannot be sourced reliably then... it can't be in the article. Simple as that. Just like a DOB or any other type of personal information. § FreeRangeFrog croak 17:08, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Not quite that simple - "Ulysses" is cited in The Guinness Encyclopedia of Popular Music and The Virgin Enyclopedia of 70s Music, both of which I would normally consider to be reliable sources. But Bruce Eder's biography summarily dismisses it as nonsense. Ritchie333  (talk)  (cont)   18:53, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It strikes me that maybe what is needed here is a footnote, similar to the one we ended up with on the Demi Moore article: 'Some sources state that Wood's first name is Ulysses. [1][2] Bruce Eder, writing on .allmusic.com however states that this is incorrect and that he is "listed as Ulysses Adrian Wood due to a flip comment made in an interview"[3].' Or something like that - we don't need to state anything definitive, but rather present the evidence, and let the reader decide. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:10, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Deepak Chopra concerns
Serious concerns have been raised on the Deepak Chopra talk page here. The editor raising the concerns has appropriately not edited the article and seems aware of the Wikipedia guidelines and policies which govern neutrality. They are respectfully asking for help. I'd like to ask for uninvolved eyes on the discussion and article. Thanks.(Littleolive oil (talk) 14:27, 10 April 2014 (UTC))
 * They identify virtually every recent non-supportive editor of the article as problematic. This looks very much like a WP:CIVPUSH attempt, and it's unlikely to be divorced from the recent issues with . Guy (Help!) 17:52, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Narendra Modi again
Few days ago, thread was archived, I would like someone to have their opinion on this issue. Thanks D4iNa4 (talk) 15:18, 10 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I would just like to point out that the reason none of the other editors is coming to discuss this here, is that the issue was discussed to death a few months back, consensus was established, and the disputed content inserted. For reasons best known to themselves, D4iNa4 has been ignoring all requests to read the archived discussion, and is also being remarkably obtuse when reading the source under question. Vanamonde93 (talk) 19:30, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Explained many times, so carry on the talk page. D4iNa4 (talk) 20:32, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Kate Mulgrew


First it started with IPs, now with registered accounts, insisting on adding unsourced and then poorly sourced material (Facebook and another that references her boyfriend) that Mulgrew and Tim Hagan have divorced. I can't keep reverting. Talking about it (on my talk page) hasn't helped. I'd request protection, but at least one of the editors is auto-confirmed. I could claim a BLP exemption, but once they started using sources, even if they're unreliable, I'm reluctant to do that. Maybe others could help. I did a little searching to see if I could find anything one way or the other and failed.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:56, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Mmph. It is her official FB page, therefore almost certainly true, so I can understand why people are adding it.  I can't find a single reliable source though. Black Kite (talk) 21:11, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not good at navigating Facebook (don't have an account and don't want one). The only times I look at it are at Wikipedia and only when I have to. I now can't find the entry about her divorce, don't know why. Before I accessed the page through the other editor's link. Now, I've accessed her account through her own website (which, btw, doesn't say anything about marriages or divorces that I can find). As I recall, when I accessed it with the other editor's link, it was a one-liner, and when I clicked on it, no more information is provided. Divorce is a legal concept. Even if we accept Facebook as a reliable source in some contexts, I don't think it should be accepted here. This requires a higher quality source.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:35, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, there's a conversation there where Mulgrew's account refers to a "current boyfriend" and the fact that she is divorced. As you say though, we'd need more than that. Black Kite (talk) 21:51, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Currently the article has her married. Isn't there a BLP issue with this as it's probably inaccurate and we have her talking about her boyfriend? -- Neil N  talk to me  03:45, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Ted Cruz
What are the guidelines to denote ancestry of living people? I read that this is based in self-identification, rather than identification by third parties.

The case in point is Ted Cruz in which there is a sentence in the lede in which Cruz is described as a "Cuban-American": (A Cuban-American, Cruz is one of three Latinos in the Senate.) using a third party source (not a WP:RS, in  my opinion);  there are no sources in which Cruz self-identifies as such. Any assistance would be appreciated. Cwobeel (talk) 22:57, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

The official biography of Cruz at senate.gov neither defines him as "Latino" or as "Cuban-American". So my question is: can we still describe Cruz as Latino and Cuban-American, given that his Father was Cuban? His Mother is American from Italian ancestry. Cwobeel (talk) 23:06, 13 April 2014 (UTC)


 * my read on this is that since it is an ethnic distinction rather than a nationality (if he held dual citizenship that would be a different matter) unless it is self-identified, then no.Coffeepusher (talk) 23:10, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, that is what I thought. I'll wait for additional comments before deleting that sentence from the lede. Cwobeel (talk) 23:19, 13 April 2014 (UTC)


 * BTW, Cruz has dual citizenship (US and Canadian), so should he be better described as Canadian-American? Cwobeel (talk) 23:27, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * There has been long, long discussions of all of these issues at the Ted Cruz talk page. Cwobeel is looking for editors that will support his position that Ted Cruz is not a "Cuban American".  There has been long, long discussions about Obama being called an "African American" in the Wikipedia article concerning him and the consensus was that Obama should be called an African American--even though Obama's mother is white.  That consensus decision is absolutely correct, but Cwobeel seems to believe that since Cruz's mother was white then no one on Wikipedia can call Ted Cruz "Cuban American" even though there are literally hundreds of reliable sources that call him "Cuban American".  Cwobeel's response to the Obama discussion is that the Obama discussion does not apply.  That is not a substantive reply that is merely stonewalling.--NK (talk) 23:58, 13 April 2014 (UTC)


 * (ec) Cruz only utilizes US citizenship - so he is as "Canadian-American" as George Romney was "Mexican-American" or John McCain was "Panamanian-American" (people born in the Canal Zone appear eligible to claim Panamanian citizenship under Panama law AFAICT)    Trying to hyphenate a person who does not consider himself hyphenated it the height of silliness in an encyclopedia, though I suppose political tract writers have laxer standards. IIRC, Cruz has tried to formally renounce all possible Canadian citizenship claims.  And claims that he is not a "natural born US citizen" are silly season speculation present since the days of FDR who actually voted in Canadian local elections.     Collect (talk) 00:10, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Ted Cruz appears to self-identify as "Cuban American" to indicate his ethnicity and not his citizenship.  Removal of that would thus be improper as we allow people to self-designate their religion, ethnicity etc.   /the only sources saying "call him Canadian" appear to be partisan in nature entirely. Collect (talk) 00:25, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, but what do you say about describing Cruz as "Cuban-American" or "Latino", when he has never described himself as such. And there are but a few sources that describe him in such terms (his official page ate senate.gov does not include any such) Cwobeel (talk) 00:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually he did use "Cuban American" in campaign biographies, official biographies, in speeches etc.  Do you have a real reason for disputing his self-identification in favour of a rather partisan claim?   You say he does not mention "Cuban" in his Senate bio but it does have Ted’s father was born in Cuba, fought in the revolution, and was imprisoned and tortured. He fled to Texas in 1957, penniless and not speaking a word of English. which seems clear enough. As does Before being elected, Ted received national acclaim as the Solicitor General of Texas, the State's chief lawyer before the U.S. Supreme Court. Serving under Attorney General Greg Abbott, Ted was the nation’s youngest Solicitor General, the longest serving Solicitor General in Texas, and the first Hispanic Solicitor General of Texas.     Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:25, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I could not find any such sources in which he identifies as "Latino" or "Cuban-American". His official biography does not mention it either, see http://www.cruz.senate.gov/?p=about_senator. Maybe you can help and find these sources? Cwobeel (talk) 00:39, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * my stance stays the same, if he self identifies or a source that can be attributed to him identifies as Cuban American then that is fine.Coffeepusher (talk) 00:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I found no sources in which he self indetifies as Cuban-American; just one source (his official bio at senate.gov, mentions "Hispanic" : and the first Hispanic Solicitor General of Texas. http://www.cruz.senate.gov/?p=about_senator Cwobeel (talk) 00:54, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * If a person makes a specific point in his biography that his father was Cuban, it follows that we can say he has a Cuban ethnicity here. And I find the cavil that "Hispanics" are not "Latinos" to be risible.  Last I looked, the two terms in the US are interchangeable with regard to Hispanics of American heritage.   Now can we have the real reasoning? Collect (talk) 01:33, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Per Hispanic and Latino Americans: While the two terms are sometimes used interchangeably, Hispanic is a narrower term and refers mostly to persons of Spanish-speaking ancestry, while Latino is more frequently used to refer more generally to anyone of Latin American origin or ancestry, including Brazilians. For the sake of WP:RS, we should use "Hispanic" as that is what says in Cruz's official bio at senate.gov.Cwobeel (talk) 04:38, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Collect says: "Ted Cruz appears to self-identify as "Cuban American"." Cwobel says Cruz "has never described himself as such." Collect replies, "Actually he did use 'Cuban American' in campaign biographies, official biographies, in speeches etc." Cwobel has asked for sources for Collect's assertion, saying he can find none; Coffeepusher says if Cruz self-identifies, or a source attributable to him identifies him, as Cuban American, then OK. Yet Collect's reply overlooks these challenges, and says that as Cruz identifies his father as Cuban he has "Cuban ethnicity."


 * What would help here, in light of Collect's original claim that Cruz "appears to self-identify as Cuban-American", would be for Collect to address Cwobel's request by supporting the claim with sources. Collect will be well aware of the difference between self-identifying as Cuban American and identifying one's father as of "Cuban ethnicity," so in light of Collect's frequently-stated commitment to WP:BLP and his habitual focus on RS sourcing, I'm confident the sources for the "self-identifies" claim exist, otherwise Collect would not have made the assertion. It's just a matter of Collect citing the relevant campaign biographies, official biographies and speeches etc. that he mentions. Easy. Then the issue will be resolved. I hope this helps. Writegeist (talk) 02:28, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the summary, Writegeist. look forward to these sources so that we can get on with other edits. Cwobeel (talk) 04:33, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * , lets take 30 seconds and perform a simple web search for "Ted Cruz Cuban-American". As you seem to only be satisfied by the specific description of Ted Cruz as being Cuban-American, as opposed to various synonymous phrases and wording, I took another minute to parse through the first two pages of results.  Here is a sample of what this simple web search produced:
 * CBS Miami (October 14, 2013): Sun-Sentinel columnist Michael Mayo and the Miami Herald’s Marc Caputo discuss the government shutdown, including how local politicians are handling it, and whether Ted Cruz has replaced Marco Rubio as the hot Cuban-American for 2016 among conservatives.
 * Dallas Morning News (October 25, 2011): Last month, a Houston Chronicle political blog described Cruz as “a Cuban American whose family escaped from Castro tyranny.”
 * San Antonio Express-News (April 15, 2012): Hard right Cuban American tests Texas political climate
 * Austin American-Statesman: Cuban-American politician Rafael Edward "Ted" Cruz was born Dec. 22, 1970, and was elected as a U.S. senator from Texas in November 2012.
 * Fox News Latino (November 6, 2012): Cruz, who joins two other Latinos in the Senate, both also Cuban-American, becomes the first Hispanic to represent Texas in the U.S. Senate.
 * Mother Jones (November/December 2012): He is, with apologies to fellow Cuban American Marco Rubio, the up-and-comer du jour of the conservative movement.
 * As the effort to copy, paste, and format these results greatly exceeds the effort to find them, I will stop at six. Rest assured there are plenty more for anyone willing to repeat this simple experiment.  --Allen3 talk 12:37, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I note "Hispanic is narrower than Latino" which rather implies that Hispanic is a subset of Latino -- thus a person who is Hispanic is Latino. WRT "Cuban American" try noting NYT, WaPo, HuffPo and virtually every single major RS using the term. He has said: The idea that the son of a Cuban immigrant with nothing, who finds himself suddenly elected to the Senate, to have the opportunity to come in every day, it is truly awesome, in the real sense of the word, so as far as I can see, those who deny that he repeatedly mentions Cuba are being wilfully deaf here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:30, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * @Collect: No one is arguing that there are no sources that describe Cruz as "Cuban-American"; that is not what is being discussed. Per your assertion above and per response,  you are to provide sources in which Cruz self-identify as "Cuban American" and/or Latino. Once you provide these, the discussion will be over. Cwobeel (talk) 14:22, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * (ec) Thank you Cwobeel; and thank you Allen3 and Collect. First, Allen3: I had done the search and was well aware of the secondary sources. I'm sorry to have put you to the unnecessary trouble of duplicating my search and listing the results I and no doubt also Cwobeel and Coffeepusher and Uncle Tom Cobley and all had already seen. I also regret that my  post's wording "what would help here, in light of Collect's original claim that Cruz 'appears to self-identify as Cuban-American',  would be for Collect to address Cwobeel's request by supporting the claim with souces" (emphasis added) did not make it sufficiently clear that the sources I thought Collect could help with were the sources that neither I nor Cwobeel, nor, I guess,  Coffeepusher et al. could find for Collect's assertion that Cruz self-identifies as Cuban-American. I hope I've managed to make it clear this time (Cwobeel, incidentally, had already requested the same thing with what I thought was the utmost clarity, yet had been ignored; I was just reiterating the request). Now to Collect: Collect must be aware that saying Cruz "repeatedly mentions Cuba" does not support Collect's altogether plausible but as yet uncorroborated contention that Cruz self-identifies as Cuban American,  I can only think that, like Allen3, Collect misunderstood my poorly worded post. It will be easy, now that I and Cwobeel have cleared up the misunderstanding, for Collect to direct us, as requested several times now, to at least some of the RS sources in which Cruz self-identifies as Cuban American, as Collect stated (self-identification being incontrovertible for wp, which is presumably why Collect referred to it). I would post the sources myself but I just don't seem to be able to find the pesky little blighters. I hope we won't have to rely altogether on sources where Cruz does not self-identify in the way Collect says he does.  Cwobeel, my apologies for previously misspeeling your username. Writegeist (talk)
 * I can't follow all of the re-directs in that paragraph, but here is the bottom line. Cwobeel has been attempting to remove all mentions of the phrases "Cuban American" and "Latino" from the Ted Cruz article. Ted Cruz's father is Cuban that makes Ted Cruz Cuban.  It is as simple as that.  We have plenty of secondary reliable sources that call him "Cuban American" and "Latino".  There is zero sources that support the proposition of Cwobeel that "Cuban American" and "Latino" have to be removed from the article.  It is a ludicrous argument.  Anyone who wants to remove the phrase "Cuban American" or "Latino" from the article please provide a reliable source that states that somehow that even though Cruz's father was Cuban that somehow Cruz himself is not Cuban.  Please provide that reliable source.  I will waiting for the reliable source.--NK (talk) 15:14, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Summary

 * 1) The consensus in WP is that for ancestry and/or ethnic distinctions in BLPs, we rely on self-identification, that is, we report what the subject of the BLP identifies himself/herself as
 * 2) Collect has asserted in this page that: ‘’Ted Cruz appears to self-identify as "Cuban American" to indicate his ethnicity and not his citizenship.’’
 * 3) As of now, neither Collect nor any of the editors involved or other BLP patrollers have been able to find sources in which Cruz elf-identifies as “Cuban-American”, or “Latino”
 * 4) The only self-identification for Ted Curz ancestry we have found is one in which he self-identifies as “Hispanic” in his official bio at senate.gov  (quote: “the first Hispanic Solicitor General of Texas”)

Given the above, unless sources are forthcoming in which Cruz self-identifies as “Cuban-American”, the only term we can use to describe Cruz’s ethnicity in his BLP is “Hispanic”.

Please let me know if I missed anything and if these points above are correct.

Cwobeel (talk) 15:10, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * That is your summary. It is wrong.  It is your opinion.  There are plenty of reliable secondary sources that describe Cruz as "Cuban American" and "Latino" and in the absence of any reliable sources that support Cwobeel's personal opinion that Cruz is not a Cuban American or Latino then the article will state "Cuban American" and "Latino" based upon the hundreds of reliable sources that describe him that way.--NK (talk) 15:17, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * You have missed/ignored a lot.  You have missed the fact that Obama's mother is white.  You have missed the fact that there are hundreds of reliable sources that call Cruz "Cuban American".  You have missed the fact that Cruz's father was born in Cuba.  You have missed the fact that on the campaign trail and in interviews Cruz constantly talks about his father's escape from Cuba.  You have missed the fact that his father goes on the campaign trail with him and gives long speeches on his personal flight from Cuba.  You have missed the fact that wanting to remove all references in the article to Cruz's Latino and Cuban heritage is an agenda is not good editing.  You have missed the fact that you readily admit that Cruz's father comes from Cuba, but you don't give a reason why if Cruz's father is clearly "Cuba American" then how can it be that Cruz himself isn't "Cuban American".  You have missed the fact that you have not provided even one reliable source that says Cruz is not a "Cuban American".--NK (talk) 15:23, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Heres a source that has Cruz self identifying as Cuban, so that should resolve the issue unless there is some goalpost moving going on. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ted+cruz+cuban&FORM=HDRSC3#view=detail&mid=AEE900E9704C58924164AEE900E9704C58924164 Gaijin42 (talk) 15:28, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I listened to the video, but could not find it. Care to point at what time in the video this is asserted? Thanks. Cwobeel (talk) 15:35, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The very beginning. 0:50 "First you have one cuban, then you have two cubans, then you have three cubans [...] We need another one. When Marco [] started he was a 3%. When I [] started I was at 2%   You are really grasping at straws here, he talks about his father's leaving Cuba in a million different places.  I am confused as to why you think this is controversial. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:51, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Gaijin42. Is a single source, in a passing comment in a video enough to consider this as a self-identification? Cwobeel (talk) 16:06, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) yes. 2) we don't actually have a policy regarding self identification except for cats (WP:BLPCAT) - for prose content, there is no such policy. MOS:IDENTITY specifically says "Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, and Neutral point of view (and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article). When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used in reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, Wikipedia should use the term most used in sources; if it isn't clear which is most used, use the term the person or group uses. (For example, see the article Jew, which demonstrates that most Jews prefer that term to "Jewish person".)" - it is patently obvious that he is described as Cuban-American by a massive number of sources. Both branches of policy logic (self identified, and RS) lead to the same conclusion. He should be described as Cuban American. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:13, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Great, that resolves this then! Many thanks for the explanation and for clarifying about policy. I guess, this thread can then be closed now. Cwobeel (talk) 16:17, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I've added the phrase "Cuban American" back in the article, using the US - Cuba Democracy PAC video. Thanks for the link.--NK (talk) 15:55, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The words at 0:50 do indeed imply that he considers himself Cuban, although he falls short of explicitly self-identifying with such as "I am Cuban" or "As a Cuban, I . . ." or "we Cubans". The real clincher will be when Collect cites the relevant campaign biographies, official biographies and speeches etc. in which, Collect has told us, Cruz self-identifies as Cuban American. I'm sure Collect will be along shortly with a veritable sheaf of these RSs. Writegeist (talk) 16:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Per MOS:IDENTITY the reliable sources that we have describing him as such are sufficient (Although I certainly wouldn't object to including self identification sources just to cover all bases) Gaijin42 (talk) 16:22, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you Gaijin42. As I said, I'm sure Collect will soon furnish the self-identification sources whose existence he has already called to our attention, so that we can safely say in Wikipedia's voice that (1) Cruz self-identifies as Cuban American (per Collect's RSs) and (2) he has been described as both Cuban and Cuban American (per other relevant RSs). Writegeist (talk) 16:54, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * He repeatedly refers to his Cuban dad in almost every major speech, and I dasn't provide you with the hundreds of times he has done so. Is there any actual reason for doubting the reasonable use of the term other than partisan sources calling him "Canadian" and saying he is not a legal candidate?  Cheers Collect (talk) 21:02, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * (Assuming, from the indentation, that Collect is addressing me) It appears you may not remember what you wrote. You wrote: "Actually he did use "Cuban American" in campaign biographies, official biographies, in speeches etc." In reply, you were asked for RSs in support of that precise and emphatic assertion. You have not provided them. Are you going to? (A simple yes or no will suffice.) If he really has self-identified as "Cuban American" in the instances you claim, which seems plausible, inclusion of that fact would benefit the article. If in fact he has not, then your claim can be safely disregarded as a figment of the imagination or mere argument by assertion, neither of which carries much weight on Wikipedia. However, I am sure the sources you mention do, in fact, exist as you say they do, even though they have not yet come to light. If you can't—or don't want to—post them, just say so. But if you were to post them, that would be a real help. Yes or no? Writegeist (talk) 21:39, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The pamphlets are not searchable by Google alas -- but the speeches are, and make clear that he is quite proud of his Cuban ancestry, and that should be sufficient for the use of the term.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:42, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Why are you still pressing the issue? RS say he is cuban american. We say he is cuban american. There is no need for any additional sourcing to call him cuban american in wiki voice. If you think there is, please provide the link to the policy that requires it, or point out the defect in the hundreds of reliable sources available saying he is cuban american. (And in any case, we have a video to one speech already where he calls himself Cuban, plus his repeated references to his father coming from cuba) Gaijin42 (talk) 21:55, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * (I think Writegeist is trying to hold Collect accountable for his argumentation that Cruz, quote: "Actually he did use "Cuban American" in campaign biographies, official biographies, in speeches etc." I think we are beyond that, anyway, as per your explanation about MOS, we are covered already. Cwobeel (talk) 22:13, 14 April 2014 (UTC))
 * And it is also clear that your intense desire to obfuscate the true issue -- which is the fact that partisan sources seek to say he is "not a citizen" is WP:FRINGE.  Note that I made the edit "American of Cuban ancestry" which is so blatantly obviously correct that you can not say anything except ad homs about me.  Cheers -- and try to read WP:CONSENSUSwhen you have an hour or two. Collect (talk) 23:42, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * LOL, I think you have been too long in WP, seeing people with fringe theories lurking at every corner. The attempt here (believe it or not, it is up to you, was one of accuracy. Cruz is currently Canadian and American, with dual citizenship (alth0=ough he has said that he will rescind the Canadian citizenship),], s for ad hominem, where did I do that? Again, I think you have been too long in this pedia. Cwobeel (talk) 03:55, 15 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Collect, thank you for your interesting reply. A declaration of pride in Cuban ancestry does not seem the same as declaring oneself Cuban-American. If I may take myself as an example: I have English, Irish, Italian, French, Moroccan, and Russian ancestry. If I were given to ancestral pride (I'm not, as I don't see ancestry as some kind of achievement that warrants pride), I might declare myself "quite proud" of, say, my Moroccan ancestry. But that's not saying I am Moroccan or Arab at all. Neither is it grounds for me to be described as either. Pride in ancestry doesn't have any decisive bearing on the issue at hand. And speaking (or rather, complaining, as you did) of ad hominems, accusing another user of having "an intense desire to obfuscate the true issue", is a fine example. On a more positive note, "American of Cuban ancestry" is indeed meticulously correct. Writegeist (talk) 03:32, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Susan E. Roberts
Some dude seems to think she's a "reptilian?" And links to his 1997 throwback website that obsessively studies the way she blinks as though that's actually a source. Concerned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.141.99 (talk) 03:37, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Removed - thanks for pointing it out. Ravensfire ( talk ) 04:13, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Arnold Palmer (drink)
I noticed the AP article had a reference (to a restaraunts menu!) describing a beverage named after John Daly (golfer) as a Arnold Palmer with a shot of vodka. Besides being poorly sourced and general cruft, to me this is bordering on BLP abuse, or am I just going overboard here?Two kinds of pork (talk) 16:23, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Daly himself has marketed a vodka-lemonade concoction bearing his name. So while one could certainly question the tastefulness of naming a mixed drink after a recovering alcoholic, or the wisdom of said recovering alcoholic marketing such a beverage, I don't think there's a BLP issue per se here. Cruft, sure, but this is Wikipedia after all. MastCell Talk 17:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Paul Broun
Paul Broun This biography needs to be protected as it is a public figure and false, editorialized, misleading, or irrelevant information is CONSTANTLY added that is libellous and abusive and aimed to hurt the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.168.130.213 (talk) 19:01, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Please log back into your last account, Gentlemanscholar741776, declare any old accounts and conflicts of interest and stop edit warring or I will once again have you blocked. Sepsis II (talk) 19:27, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The IP's changes were a mix of good and not so good. I've tweaked their latest revert. -- Neil N  talk to me  00:42, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Nara Lokesh
Cited references do not support information in 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.169.232.4 (talk) 21:48, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Removed the unsourced content. -- Neil N  talk to me  00:57, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Crying Wind
Based on your statement below please remove the entire posting on Crying Wind, this "Orange Mike" Person doesn't know her, I do. Many of the accusations made in the article are false and when Different members of the family have tried to take them down or correct them we have been blocked. Many of the cited people profited a great deal from Trashing Crying Wind who DID live on the reservation (we can prove this) and WAS very poor and her mother had an affair which was covered up (We can now also prove this). Neighborhood bullies who were always jealous of her tried to find ways to sabotage this woman who merely wanted to earn a living for her children through her creativity, by the way the story is simply about depression and raising kids- it is not a political academic work. She is not a legal expert and did not know Moody publishers was going to put out her book as an auto-bio rather than a novelized auto-bio, and she would not have known the difference anyway, but the matter has been settled in court nearly 35 years ago. Can we all stop trashing her now? In the theme of if you can't say something nice (or true) don't say anything at all, Please take it down- I put the initial posting up no knowing it would harm her so severely as others went on to edit it with their usual false claims. If you need proof of my statements please tell me where to send it. We did a DNA test via ancestry.com and I have census data and pay stubs from the reservation.

Thank you for your time-

"This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard. If you are connected to one of the subjects of this article and need help, please see this page." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.171.199.173 (talk) 23:43, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I left a pointer to this discussion, at the article talk page.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:12, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I am re-adding this item to BLPN, because I don't think it's yet been adequately addressed. I started a discussion at article talk, but it doesn't seem to be making much progress.Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:23, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, I think it's up to snuff now. We'll see if anyone objects.  It was difficult getting hold of one of the refs.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:46, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Jens Stoltenberg
Norway's former prime minister. There is a discussion on the talk page what to include about his policies and the cabinets policies towards Israel. A criticism paragraph - in various forms - has been edited in and out. The last to be reinserted looks like this (full section). The discussion mainly involves me, Huldra, Mishae and Yambaram. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 23:17, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Update: As of now the article disputed section look like this. I added two missing references and this article might get GA nomination as soon as the dispute will be solved.
 * I also need to point out that I am a completely neutral person on this topic since my task is archiving refs. I did however took a note that user removed a 2K worth of content from that section, so I intervened. As a side note I didn't knew the user, but by reading his talkpage I came to my senses that this is not the first time he removed content by claiming it a POV even though its not. I left him a message to which he never replied. Assuming right away that there will no reply from him (it was proven as of today), I asked  and Randykitty for clarification of the matter and got directed to the article talkpage. Other stuff you can read from Jens Stoltenberg's talk.--Mishae (talk) 23:37, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * If you will read the talkpage, you will see that I have proposed an idea there to create criticism section. That way, any reader who would want to read his anti-Israel remarks, can read it there, while if a reader wants to read clean Jens Stoltenberg will probably skip it. According to NPOV we must provide a neutral point of view on all subjects, that's the reason why we have criticism sections on various leaders such as Vladimir Putin for example.--Mishae (talk) 00:13, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks to Iselilja for bringing this up here, though I believe we could resolve everything on the article's talk page. I fully agree with the Mishae's points, and appreciate the way he handles the issue. This article was featured on Wikipedia's main page last week, and I also think it should get a GA nomination after a few balancing edits.
 * Stoltenberg served as Norway's PM for many years and has been holding some of the highest positions out there giving him a lot of influence, therefore attracting notable different perceptions of him - critical, supportive, and neutral. His views on Israel are of due weight, as do the way these views are perceived in the media. As Mishae suggested, the alternative option would be creating a new perception/criticism section in order to address all similar issues (and apparently there are many more) in one place. Other than slightly shortening the section being discussed now, I see absolutely no reason to delete the information/sources that are presently there, and doing so would be a clear unbalanced POV edit. Yambaram (talk) 01:16, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I think we wouldn't be able to solve it on the article talkpage since it will lead to edit wars which are not allowed on Wikipedia. I would like to thank Iselilja for bringing it up here, but I also should mention that user Bjerrebæk also took part and became the main reason why I joined the discussion on the above mentioned article's talkpage. It would be a good reason to discuss both editor here, since there is more then Huldra who removes a due weight content (the reason why it was undue, was because there was only a couple of refs). Now, since Yambaram added 3 more (which I archived), I should agree on it being due weight.--Mishae (talk) 02:20, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Apparently, this ongoing discussion has been moved to this board, and is also discussed at the article's talk page here. Please do not use this thread to make new comments, thanks. Yambaram (talk) 08:43, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, a quick admin's opinion on the subject would be appreciated, as it's much needed. Yambaram (talk) 19:53, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

53rd Syedna succession controversy (Dawoodi Bohra)
Diff:

Same Edit Reverted by Admin Diff:

Attemp to solve on talk pages and User:Summichum Habitual consistency in negating any discussion and reverts without discussion:

Quote from pritish Nandi[edit source]

I've removed the sentence, as to me it seemed to be violating WP:BLPGOSSIP. On reading the article, the author seems to be using a strident tone and exaggerating the facts for dramatic effect. This is not immediately obvious when quoted out of context in Wikipedia, and could make readers think that the claims were meant to be taken literally.

Similar edit was done by admin user:Mr. Stradivarius in article Mufaddal Saifuddin.Rukn950 (talk) 16:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

No Rukn950 you changed before discussing here and above, anyways WP:BLPGOSSIP applies to BLP articles and this is not a BLP article, this article's main topic itself is succession controversy which requires that the views of third parties whether pro or against should be quoted if avaialible in reputed media outlets, remember we are not stating it as fact but as quote.Summichum (talk) 16:23, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

whether the article is about living person or not but the quote is, hence it is violation. you reverted my edit without discussion. that has become your habitual consistency. I would request user:Qwertyus and user:Anupmehra to look into this matter and also about Azad suplimentary.Rukn950 (talk) 19:29, 13 April 2014 (UTC) Rukn950 (talk) 19:48, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

User summichum again reverted the tag regarding violation: Diff: This has been going on for articles dawoodi bohra and mufaddal saifuddin since 2 months at a stretch.User:Summichum is consistent in his POV edits and reverts. even after he was blocked twice.Rukn950 (talk) 13:52, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * this is a false allegation firstly, I invited him to talk page for discussion regarding this issue and I explained the reasons that this 53rd succession controversy article is not a BLP article , and he has in bad faith reported diffs of two different articles. I only quoted the statement of an influential person in India , Pristish Nandy who has recieved the highest civilian award of integrity in India :padma shri by govt of India and was a leading editor of famous news papers, and he is completely non aligned third party who presented his view as a result of well thought research on the subject of succession controversy. These users are having conflict of interest as reported on COI noticeboard. they also reported me by copy pasting comments of a third party user User:Anupmehra and he also agreed partially that rukn and md_iet are involved in conflict of interest.Summichum (talk) 17:10, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Mr summichum has never invited me but on the contrary he reported me to editwar notice board, but failed twice to block me as his POV was clear. user Md iet and myself have been trying to reason with him but he is adamant. He claims that he is not familiar with dawoodi bohra yet his POV is clear from his edits.This is his sole purpose in joining the Wikipedia.Rukn950 (talk) 06:04, 15 April 2014 (UTC) let difference and his history speak for itself.Rukn950 (talk) 06:04, 15 April 2014 (UTC) The Audacity of this user summichum is such that he flooded my talkpages with notices:

(cur | prev) 09:21, 2 April 2014 Summichum (talk | contribs). . (5,280 bytes) (+2,760). . (Notice: Conflict of Interest on Dawoodi Bohra. (TW)) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 09:20, 2 April 2014 Summichum (talk | contribs). . (2,520 bytes) (+332). . (Caution: Not assuming good faith onMufaddal Saifuddin. (TW)) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 09:18, 2 April 2014 Summichum (talk | contribs). . (2,184 bytes) (+833). . (General note: Using Wikipedia for advertising or promotion on Dawoodi Bohra. (TW)) (undo | thank)

and recently he harassed an editor:

Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring

13 User:Md iet reported by User:Summichum (Result: No violation)

This user summichum is consitent in his reverts yet again there is no way he can be reasoned:

14:33, 15 April 2014 Summichum (talk | contribs). . (20,266 bytes) (0). . (→Court Case against Mufaddal Saifuddin)(undo | thank)(cur | prev)

14:32, 15 April 2014 Summichum (talk | contribs). . (20,266 bytes) (+503). . (added new source HT on the court battle and azad magazine is a verifiable primary source which was used as quote) (undo | thank)(cur | prev)

14:12, 15 April 2014 Summichum (talk | contribs) m. . (19,763 bytes) (+3,139). . (Reverted 1 edit by Md iet (talk) to last revision by Rukn950. (TW)) (undo | thank)(cur | prev)

10:00, 15 April 2014 Md iet (talk | contribs). . (16,624 bytes) (-3,139). . (→Demands of Central Board of Dawoodi Bohras in wake of succession controversy: Proper citation required, however demands of independent group do not carry any weightage here in this article, the group has its own article.)

Rukn950 (talk) 15:37, 15 April 2014 (UTC) User summichum reverted my tag I had given on this page:

(cur | prev) 19:00, 15 April 2014 Lowercase sigmabot (talk | contribs) m. . (20,148 bytes) (-27). . (Removing protection templates) (bot) (undo) (cur | prev) 18:40, 15 April 2014 Summichum (talk | contribs). . (20,175 bytes) (+28). . (Adding (TW)) (undo | thank) (cur | prev) 18:39, 15 April 2014 Summichum (talk | contribs). . (20,147 bytes) (-183). . (Please dont overtag. All of the references are authoritative and the only azad mag source was used to quote the opinion of progressive stakeholders on the controversy) (undo |thank) (cur | prev) 15:50, 15 April 2014 Rukn950 (talk | contribs). . (20,330 bytes) (+64)

Angela Pulvirenti
The person is not notable enough to warrant an article. It appears to have been written by the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tyfgcv (talk • contribs) 00:11, 15 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The subject seems to meet WP:GNG. I've depuffed the content a bit. -- Neil N  talk to me  00:52, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Peter Luff
An IP identifying themselves as the subject raised an issue here at Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive178 in June last year concerning the following statement, but got no response:

"He later justified UK arms sales to serial human rights violators like Saudi Arabia and Bahrain as follows: 'I'm not condoning human rights abuses, of course not, but . . . sometimes you have to be pragmatic.'"

The same IP removed the material, but it has now been restored. The source verifies the quote but I'm not convinced it's been presented in an appropriate context.

The subject has also posted a request edit at the talk page on a separate issue. January ( talk ) 10:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I looked into this, and decided to remove the material per WP:UNDUE and WP:BLP. Will add the page to my watchlist for a while. Cwobeel (talk) 14:25, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Michel Chossudovsky
Several editors here have tried over recent months to add a criticism section on this academic and activist's page, sourced to random comments from political opponents, both on the left and right. At its recent maximum, all this content was being inserted. Subsequently, and following some talk page discussion here – originally started a while back by someone querying inclusion but never responded to – it has now been reduced to this paragraph, sourced to a book by a rival – and it would appear, non-notable – activist and academic that accuses Chossudovsky of "distortions" and of being a fan of an indicted war criminal. The editor backing inclusion has also referred to Chossudovsky as a "dictator lover" in discussions on talk. Quite apart from NPOV, UNDUE and CRITICISM concerns, both the page content and talk page contributions would appear to be a breach of WP's BLP policy. I don't see what reporting and indeed apparently endorsing spats and smears have to do with building an encyclopedic biography.  N-HH   talk / edits  12:11, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * if this is the man - - here he is on the profoundly propagandistic and Putin loving Russia Today, which is not, I believe, regarded as a reliable source on English wp, but shows something of the temperature of the mans political climate -  N-HH said Karadjis  was 'not an academic', but indeed, appears to be, so he is just 'smearing' a  man for not saying something N-HH finds congenial -- I cant find much in respected RS about chossudovsky- probably because he is regarded as a marginal figure -  denigrating differences of opinion on events in reality, wars and such, as 'spats and smears' is no use imo - if this bloke is a public intellectual, however marginal, 'spats and smears' are part of the story, that is the territory,  -that's how I see it. N-HH is trying to delete what looks to me like reliably sourced and pertinent criticism. Sayerslle (talk) 13:27, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Payal Rohatgi
I don't even know where to begin to fix this hot mess of poor citations. Bearian (talk) 16:25, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Chris Stewart
Hi I am an Aunt of Chris Stewart. His mother Susan Reed, my sister, is not of Arabic origin. We are English Canadians. Our Dad was born of Irish decent and our Mother, British decent all born in Canada. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cindyr 3CA (talk • contribs) 18:15, 15 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The ESPN source cited in Chris Stewart (ice hockey) makes no assertion about his mother's ethnicity, so I have removed that. However, the source does report the father as Jamaican. "For most of their lives, the only income their mother, a blue-eyed blonde named Sue Reid, brought in was a small disability check. Their father, a Jamaican immigrant named Norman Stewart..." —C.Fred (talk) 18:45, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Robert H. Schuller Unauthorized and Locked Data by Unknown User
I am the authorized representative for Robert H. Schuller. I attempted to make corrections to his biography adding to the accuracy but I think this page is set up to automatically return to a locked version, constituting endorsement by and of someone we do not know. Please assist us in unlocking this page so that we can also contribute to the content assuring that it is accurate and more complete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RHS Trust (talk • contribs) 23:23, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Many of the proposed edits appear to have violated various Wikipedia guidelines and policies, including requirements for material to be verifiable in appropriate reliable sources, to be written in a neutral point of view, to avoid promotion, and to avoid inappropriate external links. The existing version of the article may have some of these issues as well.  Schuller is an important figure in the history of televangelism, and the Wikipedia article could probably be improved with the addition of more independent reliable sources and better, more objectively written text.
 * A positive course of action for you here would be to raise specific concerns about perceived factual inaccuracies or poorly written content on the article's talk page, where other, experienced and independent editors can review the issues and make appropriate edits. Please review the pages Conflict of interest and Plain and simple conflict of interest guide for more guidance. --Arxiloxos (talk) 15:32, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Anca Heltne


We have two spas, probably the same individual, adding unreliably sourced material and deleting sourced material in an attempt to whitewash this article. I can probably justifiably claim a BLP exeption from edit warring, but I'd rather have more editors involved.--Bbb23 (talk) 08:04, 16 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I've wutchlosted this to see what happens next. Maybe other people have too. Or not... --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:56, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Obviously I have. Tried to find the source the individual (now on their fifth revert) claims to exist with no success. -- Neil N  talk to me  18:01, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * This is a routine athletics doping case. No need for alarm. I've expanded and cited as appropriate. SFB 20:31, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Benet Salway
After being emailed by Salway with a complaint, I have removed some personal unsourced information on this article (diff). Could the edits with this unencyclopaedic information about his family be suppressed please?

I have a mild COI as I am friends with Salway, so I would appreciate another pair of eyes on this enforcement of BLP. I will advise Salway on how to email OTRS if there are future problems. --Fæ (talk) 09:58, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed one link, reworded a copyvio from his online c.v. etc. Looks fine at this point, though I am unsure his list of articles is altogether necessary here. Collect (talk) 12:41, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

nl.wiki/Geoffrey_Deckers
"Encyclopedic content must be verifiable."

And this is NOT the case on

nl.wiki/Geoffrey_Deckers nl.wiki/EenDierEenVriend

and the only thing nl.wiki'pedians say is to "register so i can change the inaccuracies in these articles"

I (and i know EDEV & GDeckers) do NOT want to be wikipedians!

So much of what is written there is untrue and inaccurate, and the people have troubles in their lives & organisational work because of it!

libelous information & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation is used upon nl.wiki/Deckers & nl.wiki/EDEV and repeated requests to change or delete the incorrect stuff is being ignored; not just today but also before after complaining per email through official i n f o @ e d e v .nl emails

please help here as the nl.wiki does not seem to care! 83.232.236.174 (talk) 15:53, 16 April 2014 (UTC) (signing here but i dont think i'll ever be able to re-find this in the wiki-jungle ..)
 * The en.wiki has no jurisduction over the nl.wiki; just as they have no jurisduction over us. Stuartyeates (code test) (talk) 01:27, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Air rage
I'm concerned that the article Air rage consists mainly of a list of incidents where people behaved badly on planes or at airports. I'm not sure if the content is acceptable based on the BLP policy, and was hoping to get opinions from people who are more familiar with the policies. I wasn't quite sure if this was the right place to ask for opinions, since there isn't any dispute on the article, but this was the best place I could find to get opinions of people familiar with BLP policy. No one responded when I posted on the talk page of the article. Anyway, is that content acceptable, or is it problematic? Should the list of incidents be removed, or perhaps just the names of the people involved (or maybe just the names for people who aren't celebrities)? Calathan (talk) 16:47, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * This article is a mess. I've started in but more eyes would help. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:07, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for working on the article. Calathan (talk) 01:44, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Cleaned up the obvious WP:NOR and removed un-sourced content. Cwobeel (talk) 18:34, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Shingo Nishimura
Article is about a Japanese politician who has made controversial statements. It is currently categorized under Category:Disbarred lawyers and Category:Japanese criminals, but these claims are not mentioned in the text, and consequently not cited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.231.215.250 (talk) 09:37, 17 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Now fnixed, thank you for letting us know. (I don't see why people take objection to him ranting at Koreans; I rant at lots of people, regardless of their nationality.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:54, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Koenraad Elst (again)
After and  nominated the BLP article and all of the authors' book articles for deletion, one of the discussions centered on the serious NPOV violations in the article.

They were already brought up at this noticeboard at least once. Some improvements were then made by User:Collect, but they were reverted by another editor. The article may need to be protected.

The NPOV violations were explained in great detail by the subject of the lemma here:
 * The wikipedia lemma on "Koenraad Elst": a textbook example of defamation
 * Meera Nanda against Hinduism

These links say among other things:
 * Well, there you have it. The lemma on me has ended up taking this form because some militant among your contributors purposely wanted to “warn readers” against me. Please cite me an instruction for encyclopedists that names “warning” among the legitimate goals of an encyclopedia.
 * Either you remove the lemma altogether, or you straighten it out and apply the rules of encyclopedia-writing to it. At any rate, in a encyclopedia, I count on being judged for what I myself have said or done, and not for the gossip my declared enemies have come up with.
 * If Wikipedia wants to live up to its promise of being a reliable encyclopedic source, it will strike this and all sentences resembling it from its article on me. At most, it can use me as an example of how it was fooled by some of its all-too-partisan collaborators. Speaking of whom: the history page accompanying my page proves forever that some Wikipedia collaborators wanted to inflict on me the maximum harm possible, an attitude incompatible with work for an encyclopedia.

The old discussion was here:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive178

Someone claiming to be the subject of the article Koenraad Elst has written a long blog post with a set of criticisms of the article. Some of the criticisms seem slightly overwrought but there's probably quite a few which are valid. Anyone want to sort this out? —Tom Morris (talk) 05:59, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Well -- the BLP was replete with "claims" and polemical wording which I did a little clean-up on. Not a shining example of Wikipedia biographies in any case.  More for others to work on.  I specifically did not seek out the blog, bit worked from Wikipedia normal best practice on it.  Collect (talk) 07:38, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear; in this edit reposted an old thread with commentaries of two editors, without signing it himself. --Soman (talk) 09:14, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reminding me to sign. --Calypsomusic (talk) 09:16, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment: Some users are even calling him a fascist in wikipedia space. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Negationism in India: Concealing the Record of Islam --Calypsomusic (talk) 10:43, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Diffs would have been useful. Looks like just one editor, NarSakSasLee, here.  I don't find the claim to be particularly outlandish.  See, for example, .  However, it would probably be best if NarSakSesLee explained what s/he meant.  Lesser Cartographies (talk) 11:29, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Commented. D4iNa4 (talk) 18:11, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

The guy is a nutcase. All of his books belong on his own article - not separated. No one is discussing them except fringe authors. There is also very little criticism or praise of him. He's part of Vlaams Belang (which is fascist) and is coming up with piles of bullshit no one actually cares about. So why have his own articles on irrelevant non-notable books? NarSakSasLee (talk) 12:35, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Look who's talking? One who believes that this book is related to science. If you already know now, that you are Incompetent about these stuff, you can just stop or pursue useful contribution, in place of typing extreme nonsense that violates the policies. I cannot find any source of him being fascist anyway. So stop making up. D4iNa4 (talk) 15:14, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

The Koenraad Elst section was deleted (removed from public view) by Lesser Cartographies and later archived, but the issue is not resolved. --Calypsomusic (talk) 11:37, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I hatted the section, as an admin had taken a look and blocked the offending user. I think that's about as resolved as you're going to get.  What else did you want to see happen here?  Lesser Cartographies (talk) 14:04, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your clarification. But the issue is about the Koenraad Elst article, not about the personal attacks on various talkpages. It was not related to that user, so the blocking didn't solve the issue. --Calypsomusic (talk) 14:42, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Dan Patrick
It states on Dan Patrick's Wikipedia page that his spouse is Wendy Davis. I believe that not to be true. Wendy Davis is a political opponent. I believe that Dan Patrick's spouse is Susan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.170.169.129 (talk) 13:09, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Different Dan Patrick, but you're right about his wife. I've fixed the vandalism. -- Neil N  talk to me  13:23, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Billy Bob Thornton
Regarding the CBC interview incident, I have twice updated the paragraph to note that, despite negative press, Billy Bob's band The Boxmasters played the next night to not one, but two standing ovations from the Canadian audience at the end of the show. I am Mr. Thornton's Webmaster and work very closely with his team, and my source is someone who was physically present at the concert. Twice, this update has been deleted.

Also, Mr. Thornton did not complain that Canadians were like mashed potatoes without the gravy. He joked about it. Anyone who watches the interview can see that he is joking.

108.91.105.124 (talk) 17:01, 17 April 2014 (UTC)Amélie Frank


 * I've re-worded the section somewhat, as I found it to be overly focused on a Canadian perspective despite being justified by reference to multiple international sources which seem not to share that perspective.


 * Regarding the standing ovations, unfortunately personal accounts of the reception of the show can't be used to add material on Wikipedia unless they're published by reliable independent sources.


 * An argument could perhaps be made that the section is actually WP:UNDUE and therefore shouldn't be in the article at all, but I can't quite see that at the moment; would welcome comments from others. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:43, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It looks like it's being given undue weight. As a badly conducted interview (interviewer and interviewee), it was certainly covered, and it might be worth a sentence as a public incident under "other". But right now it's being given more weight than even his marriage to Angelina Jolie, and given equal weight as his music career as a whole. I don't usually like staff interventions for celebrities but there's no way this one interview is worth more weight than any single one of his acting roles, movies etc. Right now his career section is "Film, Music, CBC Incident".__ E L A Q U E A T E  20:21, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It also looks like the writeup of this incident relies heavily on the Jian Ghomeshi article. This was a page that had severe COI concerns in the past, as shown here. I don't think we should have more than a sentence on the interview in Thornton's BLP, and without the negative cast that could have originated from Ghomeshi's staff. If you look at the verbs used to describe Thornton's behavior, they seem to run foul of Neutrality and the spirit of WP:SAY.__ E L A Q U E A T E  20:28, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Victor Yanukovych
Lvivske keeps adding a defamatory information to the article about Victor Yanukovych.

The user reverted me twice,.

The user also lied about having fact checked the source :.

I hope the user is blocked cause it was intentional.

(I removed the section a few days earlier and then Paavo273 readded it. I believe the readdition was in good faith.)

For the record, the source says only:

--Moscow Connection (talk) 19:21, 17 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Moscow Connection is lying. First he blanked the content and another user reverted him, and today he tried blanking the fully cited content again. The content includes a direct quote from an article by the Kyiv Post. I have since opened a talk page discussion showing both the source link, quote, and even a screen shot for good measure. I don't know why Moscow Connection is denying the source exists; this is widely cited information that a quick google search would find further information from every major newspaper in the world it seems. I warned him on his talk page and informed him that I had fact checked the source, and he called me a vandal, and now threatened to have me blocked....for fact checking? --Львівське (говорити) 19:31, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I've looked at your screenshot and I've heard about what it says, but it was just a statement by a party official, not an official statement by the party. There were a few statements like that issued, but the party didn't officially disavowed Yanukovich. So what your added is incorrect even if some article actually says what your screenshot says. --Moscow Connection (talk) 19:49, 17 April 2014 (UTC) Cause you see, Yanukovich asked to exclude him from the party much later himself and his request was granted:. --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC) But I've explained above (and attempted to explain before on the talk page) why the info you re-added was incorrect. These are statements by some party official and by the parliamentary fraction (see the link Lvivske provided). Not by the party (the whole party). --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:58, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Is it possible the article was changed since it was originally posted? Ravensfire</b> ( talk ) 19:35, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, a quick google search using the first bits of the quote show plenty of other potential sources for that quote. <b style="color:darkred;">Ravensfire</b> ( talk ) 19:38, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Article's the same, posted a screenshot of how it appears today with the quote highlighted. I've since added refs from Bloomberg and the Washington Post to assuage any doubts.--Львівське (говорити) 19:41, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I saw your screenshot, and don't doubt you, but there is something odd happening then. (Perhaps some regional filtering, which I've seen before) I don't see that quote at all in the link provided.  I would recommend considering using an alternate source. <b style="color:darkred;">Ravensfire</b> ( talk ) 19:47, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see what you see. I will reply there on the talk page with a screenshot of what I see. (I've quoted the whole text I see above.)
 * The guardian.com timeline article says "Viktor Yanukovych, who has not been seen since his pre-recorded video apperance on Saturday, has been rejected by his own political group, the Party of Regions." The full statement is apparently posted on their website. But you've got a secondary source saying he's been rejected by his former party. Maybe just better phrasing is needed? <b style="color:darkred;">Ravensfire</b> ( talk ) 19:56, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Could you please help? Could you please ask the people who are adding the statement to either provide a link to the official statement or remove the section? --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you mean by "a statement by a party official" when it was made in a formal address by the head of the party itself. That's about as formal as it gets. Also, the quote is "The Party of Regions faction and members of our party, strongly condemn...", he is not speaking in a personal capacity, but on behalf of the entire party...as the quote makes clear. --Львівське (говорити) 19:58, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It's just a statement by the party's parliamentary faction, not by the party. I've just searched the net and there were reports about some statements like that by the party's parliamentary faction and by some regional section back in February. But I believe there never was any official statement by the party.
 * Let's remove the warnings to each other. If you remove the complete section on my talk page with some edit summary about it being a mistake or something like that, I will remove the section on your talk page. --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * If we're talking about the same thing here and I THINK we ARE, I had mentioned to Moscow Connection that the reason the info was missing from the cite (which IMO seems clear if you look at the cited source) is KP deliberately cuts off articles to try get paid subscriptions.  I had told MC that I would add a substitute link--the one I also added on the talk page in this section about 2/3 way down in the paragraph that starts "Здравствйте Мocow Connection...."  Unfortunately, that archive is for some reason a banned website and the article would not allow me to add it--just spit it back out.  That may be what precipitated all this--Causa causae est causa causati!  Well that, and my originally splitting off the newer info about VY asking 2B excluded from where User:Yulia Romero had placed it as part of her IMO seemingly tireless efforts to expand and improve the UA-related articles of this encyclopaedia.  Regards all, Paavo273 (talk) 20:38, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I obviously didn't notice the second half of that message.


 * Saying it's a statement by "the parliamentary faction, and not the party" is an obfuscation of the material. The faction is the party, Finkle is Einhorn. The quote by the head of the party clearly says "The Party of Regions faction and members of our party" --Львівське (говорити) 20:50, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The parliamentary faction is not the party. The parliamentry faction is the people who are members of the partliamentary faction. (I bet you know yourself what the situation was right after the coup.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:07, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Recognising that there may be regional filtering issues, as suggested by Ravensfire, may assist in explaining why you were arguing with a number of contributors on the talk page who could see what you couldn't is one thing, Moscow Connection; not accepting that others were telling you that the information was there is not assuming good faith. Blanking the section while we were all still actively engaged in establishing what the problem was on the talk page is tendentious editing by anyone's standards. It would have been reasonable to tag the section as needing better sources: removing it altogether (yet again) is not reasonable.

The article is a BLP. Please remove the incorrect info. --Moscow Connection (talk) 08:05, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * You've now essentially turned this into a demand for explicit evidence in the form of primary sources (i.e., as per and the one above) on the basis that implicit secondary sources do not meet your personal, exacting standards. Your problem does not appear to be with the sources but the content itself. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a reasonable or rational argument for striking a section from a timeline. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:19, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I've already explained 100,000 times that Yanukovich wasn't disowned/disavowed/excluded from the party until he asked to be exluded. I'm starting to lose my patience. Wikipedia lies. Thanks to you. --Moscow Connection (talk) 07:52, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Here: Talk:Viktor Yanukovych.

Steve Starr Pulitzer Prize Photographer
Hi. I'm still alive. My Wiki bio has me confused with another photographer who died in November 2012. Can I get the bio changed? It seems my efforts at changing the bio are not wiki literatre. Thanks - Steve, steve@stevestarr.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.173.252.247 (talk) 19:53, 17 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Looks like you made the change to remove the offending information. That should be good enough. Somebody had already raised the issue on the talk page for the article. — m a k o ๛  20:29, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

John Angus Campbell
This John Angus Campbell biography seems to have potential problems that I have detailed on the article's talk page. In particular, the article's subject has created a list of errors in fact and in imputation that somebody should look through carefully (also: ).

I think these issues are relatively easy to fix. That said, I am currently a faculty member in the subject's old department so I would prefer not to do the editing myself if somebody else can. — m a k o ๛  20:24, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Rand Paul - Quote from the Freedom Summit
Rand Paul spoke at the Freedom Summit on April 12. In his speech, he insisted that the Republic Party has to broaden its appeal in order to grow, and that to succeed, it can't be the party of "fat cats, rich people and Wall Street.”

Editor says that the quote is sensationalistic and as such it can’t be included because it violates WP:BURDEN. My position is that this is a quote from Paul, which has been widely reported in reliable sources, and as such it is notable for inclusion.

Here is the diff:

Discussion at Talk:Rand_Paul

CFredkin and I agreed in bringing this to the attention of this noticeboard for guidance. Cwobeel (talk) 21:06, 17 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Without re-creating the Talk page discussion here. I'd just like to comment that my main point is that the quote is not relevant to Paul's BLP and adds no value beyond being sensational.CFredkin (talk) 22:58, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Martin Landau
Just a heads up for the members of the Bio Project. A new user has made several post to Talk:Martin Landau. It looks as though they may need some guidance as to the way that things work around here. I am happy to AGF that they may be able to add information of value to the article but if we could get some an extra eye or two in explaining things that would be great. Thanks for any help that any of you can provide. MarnetteD | Talk 06:20, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Hassanal Bolkiah
The page about Hassanal Bolkiah does not provide information on him bringing back the death penalty by stoning. See the source below:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/22/brunei-sharia-law-sultan_n_4143352.html

http://rt.com/news/brunei-gay-death-stoning-104/

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/04/15/un-condemns-brunei-over-new-law-allowing-gays-to-be-stoned-to-death/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.227.151.206 (talk) 06:42, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The Huffington Post article is sourced from the "Religion News Service", whose use as a reliable source is unknown. In fact, RT and pinknews are highly questionable as to being reliable sources, especially for use in a BLP.Two kinds of pork (talk) 14:48, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Elon Musk
There is a severe case of vandalism on this page from Spicyitalianmeatball and CNMall41 I have edited the page, now countless times updating information that is false, or improving on the article... such examples include...

Adding 'investor' to the title list that is currently 'Business Magnate, inventor'. He is an investor in Solar City, Tesla, SpaceX, PayPal etc. He was also listed on Forbes 2014 Midas List of investors.http://www.forbes.com/video/3391084854001/ - This fully qualifies him as a investor, and Forbes is an extremely reliable source. However these two users, have deleted this reference every time I edit, then remove 'investor' from the list, with absolutely no reason.

Secondly regarding the Tesla Motors section, it currently reads... "The company was co-founded by Martin Eberhard, Marc Tarpenning, JB Straubel, Ian Wright, and Musk." While this is correct it does not give the full picture and is misleading, as Musk was not part of the original team. Musk came in as after the original team was formed AND had incorporated the company in July 2003. He then became involved with the company in series A round of funding as a INVESTOR. SOURCE: Mainly http://www.marketbusinessnews.com/tesla-motors/12064 This is a reliable Online Busness newspaper, however both users, merely delete the source and my edit, with no real reason. I have tried to change it to The company was co-founded by Martin Eberhard, Marc Tarpenning, JB Straubel, Ian Wright, and Musk. However the company was incorporated in 2003 by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning prior to Musk's involvement. Musk became an investor in the company in 2004 in the series A round, other such series A investment groups included...." But again this is deleted.

Thirdly I have removed inventor from occupation, this implies he is inventing on a day-to-day basis. This is hugely untrue. The only this he could be considered for in terms of inventing is Hyperloop, when in actual fact all he has done is conceptualise it, while announcing it as an open source project. This means that even if it were classified as inventing it would be more of a hobby that a occupation. Therefore this shouldn't be in the occupation section. It should be: Entrepreneur, Businessman and investor, there is no reference to any other occupation anywhere. Despite the fact they have provided no reason or COUNTER-ARGUMENT to this they merely deleted this and refer the article back to inventor. I have provided a good reason to remove however, they revert the article every time, meaning they are evidently conflicted by personal opinions.

Finally, I also removed 'inventor' from the introduction titles Business Magnate, investor etc. This is again for similar reasons above, but that compared to his activity as a entrepreneur and investor, conceptualising a SINGLE technology does not seem noteworthy or significant, for a introduction title. The titles are followed with 'He conceptualise the Hyperloop' which is true, but the only thing he could ever be considered for inventing IS hyperloop, therefore including inventor implies he has multiple inventions which he has not, they have failed to provide any list of inventions and have deleted my input with no reason.

I have tried improving/editing the article tim a and time again, and ever without failed these two users have undone ALL my edits with no reason. I'd appreciate if an authoritative user could sort this dispute out. Thank You. Dirac740 (talk) 11:03, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Eric Schlosser
Would someone please take a look at this article, with an eye towards achieving a greater level of neutrality? IMO its a little self-promotional. I would do it myself, but I'm a little annoyed with some of the subject matter involved.Two kinds of pork (talk) 14:42, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Adrienne Harun
The first name of Adrianne Harun is misspelled in the title of her Wiki page. It is currently spelled Adrienne. Please note that the references cited on her Wiki page support this correction. I was able to correct the spelling in the body of the page, but not in the title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Granitedesk (talk • contribs) 04:54, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I have used WP:MOVE to move the article to the correctly spelled title. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:34, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Ian Levine
- presently quiet, but far below standards. I just cut one completely uncited attack para, it's peppered with citation-needed tags; basically needs going over with a blowtorch. If others could watchlist it as well against attempts to readd, that would be helpful - David Gerard (talk) 17:15, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Watchlisted Cwobeel (talk) 23:31, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Bobby Bowden
Biographical article incomplete.

No mention of letter written on behalf of serial rapist Michael Gibson:

Bowden referenced in connection with another rape case by former state of Florida assistant prosecuter Adam Ruiz:
 * Just because there is something in a newspaper doesnt mean that it is worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia article. We almost never include unsubstantiated charges. WP:BLP -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  18:46, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Rosario Dawson _
The film Rumble in the Jungle does not appear in her list of films. Please include it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.174.168.171 (talk) 04:28, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Fayez Barakat
Is this page really appropriate? After thorough investigation, my conclusion is that it has been written by Fayez Barakat to promote himself. --Xedyn (talk) 06:13, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I've removed the majority of the article as unsourced and assorted fluffery. There is an in-depth profile offered as a reference so I suppose he meets WP:GNG. -- Neil N  <sup style="color:blue;">talk to me  16:53, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Doug Ose vandalism/edit warring/sockpuppet
Hello, on the page for Doug Ose, a user is reverting an admin's edits, deleting article sections, and pumping the article with biased and even blatantly false information. I tried deleting an edit made earlier by a previous user that did the same thing and had them reported, but now it looks like the vandalism is continuing under a new account. I think there is a conflict of interest with this editor because they seem to be highly in favor of the individual and could perhaps be a sockpuppet to include very unreliable and one-sided advertising. Perhaps the page ought to be protected or scrutinized by someone with more experience than myself. Thanks! Hubbardc (talk) 10:58, 19 April 2014 (UTC)Hubbardc
 * The page needs semi-protection, agree. Cwobeel (talk) 13:26, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Requested semi protection at WP:RFPP Cwobeel (talk) 14:10, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Patrick McCollum
The article on Patrick McCollum has a lot of extraordinary, mostly unsourced, claims. Some of it seems copied from http://www.patrickmccollum.org/ which I presume is a self-published source. The whole article looks self-promotional. Chris Fynn (talk) 14:35, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I've basically burned it to the ground. It was a truly awful article. -- Neil N  <sup style="color:blue;">talk to me  17:13, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Much better mow. Chris Fynn (talk) 19:14, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Suicide of Amanda Todd


Will experienced editors please visit this section of the article talk page where a discussion is being held about the inclusion of an arrested suspect's name in this matter. The man has been named in media outlets, though I cannot state the level of reliability of the sources. The man has not yet been convicted. Indeed I believe that even including his forename and the first letter of his surname is probably a BLP violation. Fiddle  Faddle  16:28, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Barbara Lerner Spectre
User:JeffLB is single-purpose edit warring here since May 2013, also editing games involving IP and self-reverts, , to avoid 3R rule. WP:UNDUE, WP:OR, source is an obscure social media upload in Swedish you have to redirect and take translation on trust. Won't get it, obviously pursuing personal agenda own shtick (I dare say he wouldn't use that word) and it must be personally harassing for Barbara Spectre: this is an example of the kind of vandalism that goes on at her BLP.

I feel appropriate administrator action is needed. Lizzy B52 (talk) 17:11, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Whatchlisted. Cwobeel (talk) 19:52, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Leigh Griffiths


User:Truth, reality and justice is repeatedly adding libellous assertions to this article, based on tabloid newspapers (Daily Record and Daily Express) if there is any sourcing at all. Griffiths has been involved in some controversial incidents, but these have been added to the prose of the article, rather than creating specific attack sections. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:14, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I think to state the edits I made being described as attack sections is somewhat harsh. Many of the incidents had not been included at all prior to my updating of the article which had previously been accepted. There are in fact so many incidents it only made sense to start a new section regarding these matters. It appears the article has been continually reverted over a short period of time (in one evening) by one user.

I made all edits etc in good faith.

The original edits only ever stated the multiple incidents as alleged. This can easily be checked.

I'm not sure why it has to come down to accusations being made towards any particular user. Working together will achieve the best results.Truth, reality and justice (talk) 21:25, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * You are both well over WP:3RR, so I'd suggest talking it over before you get blocked. Negative claims in biographies must be reliably sourced, must not pose a problem of weight and must be worded neutrally. Use this place or the talk page to come to an agreement as to how the material should (if at all) be incorporated. I'd highly recommend reading WP:BLP as well. § FreeRangeFrog croak 21:29, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * User:Jmorrison230582 you reverted six times in less than 2 hours, other than section in lead which gave undue weight, the main section was entirely sourced, should this of been included I lean strongly to no until he is or if he is convicted, however this was not a clear case of vandalism and I'm concerned even if it was that you would revert that many times, you state BLP excemption I would argue you are wrong as was sourced. This should of been discussed on talk page, rather than edit warring. You also didn't properly warn for vandalism if you felt it was or for a strong BLP violation which would be the same, nor did you report at such, reverting that many times is ridiculous. Im agreeing re content but not with behaviour. Blethering  Scot  21:31, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I would say Jmorrison230582 is in the clear here - they were removing information that has BLP problems so I'd be quite willing to accept they meet the 3RR exception. That leaves "Truth, reality and justice" open to a clear block. So the onus is on them to propose a BLP-compliant version of what they want to add to the article, or leave it alone altogether. § FreeRangeFrog croak 21:43, 19 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Tabloid newspapers (Daily Record and Daily Express) are not reliable sources, while the more recent edits were not based on any sources at all. 3RR does not apply in removal of controversial contents in BLPs (point 7). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:38, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry Jmorrison but i wasn't going to report you, but if you keep arguing I will, you are clearly very wrong on 3RR exception in this case, the only bit you would of been covered for is the lead and small non sourced info, the non sourced info is easily source able but that doesn't matter here, but you certainly aren't covered for the sourced material. As for sources, if you would like to fire sources at it you know as well as i do, we can broadsheets, SKY and BBC articles to back up that claim, and there is nothing wrong with those tabloid sources either, not to the extent your trying to make out. I Don't think we should be including that information at all, i do think your behaviour is substandard. Blethering  Scot  21:42, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I've requested page protection. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:46, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * A dispute between two editors probably doesn't justify protection, rather action against editors. Blethering  Scot  21:48, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Even if you were covered by that clause what vandalism warnings did you issue, what edit warring warnings did you issue, i don't see any warning or final warning templates on the users talk page, i see no reporting to the vandalism boards either. I don't see enough to justify six reverts. Blethering  Scot  21:48, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes it does, full protection actually since everyone is autoconfirmed and I'd rather do that than block accounts. Work it out please. § FreeRangeFrog croak 21:52, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, you would rather not block edit warrers, 6 times and think fully protecting the page is better, ill be taking that further. Blethering  Scot  21:57, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Knock yourself out. In the meantime, I repeat my request to that the faster they come up with a BLP-compliant version of the information in question, the faster we can do away with the protection. Otherwise we'll assume they are not interested in including it and we can all go on with our weekend. They do have a point in that the information probably belongs in the article, and Jmorrison230582 also is correct in objecting to the way it was added. I'd rather protect an article for a few days than block an account with a (so far) clear block log. Do you have an unrelated change you want to make in the meantime? Create a request in the talk page. § FreeRangeFrog  croak 22:14, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * If User:Truth, reality and justice wishes to include it in a neutral way and if User:FreeRangeFrog, thinks as he says it should be included then I'm happy to help him. Blethering   Scot  23:08, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Our own full protection policy clearly states  Isolated incidents of edit warring, and persistent edit warring by particular users, may be better addressed by blocking, so as not to prevent normal editing of the page by others. Blethering  Scot  22:34, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I posted a message at the user's talk page before the alleged edit war started explaining where he was erring. I then posted a message at his talk page that requested him to desist after he started to post controversial material. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 22:07, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Those are not proper warnings. Blethering  Scot  22:10, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * So just because it didn't have a shiny big triangle beside it doesn't mean that it wasn't a "proper" warning? Don't be absurd. I was trying to engage constructively with a new user who clearly doesn't understand WP procedures or policy at present. That user then chose to ignore my warnings by repeatedly adding what even you admit is controversial material. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 22:17, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Im not being absurd, there was no increased level of warnings there and certainly not a final warning. Your edit warring wasn't helping a new user. Blethering  Scot  22:19, 19 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I am concerned that page protection has been inappropriately added to this article and left it in a state where there is reference to charges brought against the subject without any conviction. Further, the reference to a quote from Neil Lennon about racism is also highly misleading as he did not say it with reference to the player or in this context. Both these issues need to be resolved to bring it into line with BLP policies. --nonsense ferret  09:10, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * @User:nonsenseferret the page protection is being discussed at ANI but they seem to feel appropriate, even though its not in the spirit of our full protection policy, although it is to the letter. Neil Lennon has since commented on the players future citing the racism story and Lennons previous stance should be included as its relevant. Now there are better sources including The BBC, STV, The Guardian, The Scotsman & The Herald that should be used Blethering  Scot  11:03, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Political positions of Hillary Rodham Clinton
is sequentially deleting content from this article, content which is sourced to some deadlinks, instead of using the Citation needed as customary. The content can be easily sourced and it is non-controversial. In total this user has performed 15 19 consecutive deletions without any explanation in talk page. Diff Cwobeel (talk) 23:19, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Insert live reliable source links supporting the claims as written. Griping about any editor who actually is doing what WP:BLP says can be done is simply not a productive use of this board.  This is not supposed to be a drama-board.  Collect (talk) 23:30, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I've removed content that is unsourced, not supported by the sources provided, or not reliably sourced. WP:verifiability is a core principle of the project.CFredkin (talk) 23:31, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

The content in question is non-contentious, and was sourced to a Hillary Clinton's website that is no longer online. WP:BLP tell us to remove contentious material that is un-sourced or poorly sourced, which is not the case here, as the content is non-contentious and easily verifiable. Rather than deletions, you could add Citation needed instead. Cwobeel (talk) 23:36, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * If the source is not available, it is better to find a damn source than come yelling here about another editor. If you want drama, go to WP:AN/I but this is not the place to do it.  This board is for concerns about biographies of living persons and making sure they comply with Wikipedia policies.  Verify the claims with WP:RS sources - make the cites, and do not try soring some sort of lawyer-points here -- AN/I is the place for that sort of stuff. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:44, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, will post on WP:AN/I. Cwobeel (talk) 23:51, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * And BTW, I think the one yelling is you. Cwobeel (talk) 23:52, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Benny Elias
Some users keep deleting the nickname section of Benny Elias. It is a fact that he has been known as "Backdoor Benny" and "Crimean war" since the early 1990's. I have recently sourced a news article and also another wiki page about these commonly used nicknames of Benny Elias. Can I please get some help to ensure this stays in place. Thank you in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peck7 (talk • contribs) 23:57, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * And I have removed the nicknames again. Your first source looked little more than a glorified blog and your second source was a Wikipedia article (not a reliable source in any article). -- Neil N  <sup style="color:blue;">talk to me  01:53, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

H.R. McMaster
This passage is completely inaccurate. "In his opinion, the military is not a political or diplomatic tool, and is instead a force to be used appropriately to inflict massive casualties and cause maximized damage to enemy forces in order to meet objective military targets and goals."[22] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.226.95.18 (talk) 03:14, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The statement in question is cited to a book he wrote. If you believe that is not an accurate summary of his views, then please discuss the matter and consider suggesting alternate wording at Talk:H. R. McMaster.  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328  Let's discuss it  03:30, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Song Zuying
Editor is intent on removing any references to Song Zuying's alleged affair with Jiang Zemin from her article, and has deleted these references three times. I admit I know nothing about this particular subject, but the fact of the allegation is sourced. Should sourced information about allegations about a person be included in a BLP or not? MaxBrowne (talk) 12:09, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It seems quite poorly sourced at the moment. We say "it has long been rumoured in China that Song was romantically involved with former president Jiang Zemin and owed much of her career to support from him". The Asia Sentinel source cited says "Song Zuying, one of China’s most famous singers and a close friend – perhaps even the mistress – of Jiang". And I'm not sure who the Association for Asian Research are either. They seem to be an NGO that "promotes understanding through truth"...which sounds a bit suspect to my admittedly cynical ears. There's this New Yorker blog, but I guess any decent source will just present it as rumor. Seems like a tricky one, an "enduring rumor" about a living person... <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Sean.hoyland  - talk 17:39, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It's borderline. I'd shy away from it. Generally, we want to be pretty conservative on the personal lives on living folks. We usually don't go into much detail on personal stuff unless it's part of their notability. Even more so for contentious personal stuff. When we do, I think we'd want to mostly stick to stuff we know is true. If she's married to someone who advanced her career, that's reasonable to include. If she's having an affair with someone who advanced her career, and we know it -- she said so, or she's seen in public canoodling with the guy, or like that -- that's reasonable to include. But a rumor? Not so much.


 * And, you know, rumors and allegations. People will start these things.


 * On the other hand, the New Yorker is the gold standard for fact-checking in the English-speaking popular press IMO. They employ many fact-checkers and take it very seriously, and if a falsehood gets into a New Yorker article it's a crisis for them. And fact-checker at the New Yorker, unlike most publications, is a plum job which people with expectations of a serious journalistic career compete to get. If it was a story in the main magazine, we could be pretty confident that every assertion of fact in it has been carefully vetted for veracity. But times change --my info on the New Yorker is few years old at least -- and also it's just a blog. I'd be shocked if they were lax enough to not vet their blogs, but I don't know that they do, and if they do probably not as rigorously as the print articles. That throws us back on the writer to a fair degree.


 * Jiayang Fan is a serious writer; she's also had bylines in the Atlantic and the New York Times and Paris Review. It says here she's a New Yorker staffer and here that she does or did "story research" which makes her a fact-checker herself. I'd be gobsmacked if she was willing to throw all that away by making a general habit of reporting stuff she's not sure is true, although anything's possible I guess.


 * OK, so a pretty good source. (The Asia Sentinel and so forth I've ignored; unless we are confident that these are AAA-level sources with excellent reps for fact-checking and general veracity we shouldn't use them for contentious material in a BLP.)


 * Moving on to the material in question. A relationship with Jiang Zemin would, since it's a reasonable explanation (in part) for her career trajectory, would be worth describing if it's true. The existence of the rumor doesn't tell us anything about her career unless it can be shown that the rumor has materially affected her career. And in fact Jiayang Fan writes "...the enduring rumor that Song owes much of her career to Jiang Zemin...". So it does. It's not just idle gossip. Even if it's not true but impresarios are of the mind "Jeez, I heard she's Jiang Zemin's girl, I'd better book her and give her top billing" it'd be worth including. Even if we could demonstrate that it's not true it'd be worth including ("For many years, people believed -- falsely -- that she was favored by Jiang Zemin, and this led to such-and-such opportunities...")


 * So it's a pretty good source, and it's something worthwhile for the reader and researcher to know in trying to get a handle on her career.


 * I still wouldn't use it. BLP, contentious and potentially defamatory material, "pretty good" doesn't cut it for me. It is a blog. It's not unreasonable to hold a different view. It's borderline. If we do use it, stick to what's written: "rumor that Song owes much of her career to Jiang Zemin" implies nothing beyond that people believe that Jiang Zemin is her friend and has spoken well of her talents, although Jiayang Fan elsewhere says she's "nicknamed... First Mistress". Herostratus (talk) 08:27, 13 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I've added further references for this to the article on top of the other sources - the Daily Mail had a piece on this, as did the China Times. These are both fact-checked publications, the Daily Mail obviously more so than the (Taiwan-based) China Times, but still, they aren't blogs/NGO publications or that kind of thing. The existence of the rumour is certainly relevant to her career for the reasons discussed above, in fact it explains her continuing prominence (i.e., the Daily Mail likely wouldn't have even published the story had there not been the Jiang Zemin angle which Chinese Netizens picked up on). FOARP (talk) 13:31, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * As sources go, the Daily Mail definitely comes into the "use with caution" category. It's a rather creepy tabloid. MaxBrowne (talk) 13:50, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * It's the UK's number-one selling newspaper and currently used as a reliable source in countless articles, including BLP articles. Some people may not like it's political slant, but this is hardly relevant. The LA Times also referenced the affair here. FOARP (talk) 14:00, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Nothing to do with it's politics. It's trash. See Reliable_sources/Noticeboard and many other discussions. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Sean.hoyland  - talk 14:06, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I see a long discussion chain with various people arguing various angles - nothing conclusive against treating the Daily Mail as a reliable, fact-checked source. Meanwhile here's an article in the South China Morning Post (Hong Kong's premier English-language newspaper - often accused of slanting pro-Beijing) which also references the affair. Even if you don't like the Daily Mail, aren't LA Times and SCMP acceptable on this? FOARP (talk) 14:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Editors on the CN wiki also found this source for the existence of the alleged affair in the academic literature. I get the hesistancy about including this, but the allegations around the affair really are relevant for understanding her entire career (i.e., as a singer in the Chinese military, and as a political figure in the Chinese Communist Party) as well as understanding why, for example, her name is/has been a blocked term on the Chinese internet. I think with the additional sources (Daily Mail, LA Times, New Yorker, South China Morning Post, China Times and the academic press) any concerns about these allegations should have been put to rest.


 * On another note, I think it might be a good idea to do an IP check on User:Songfans, since both on CN wiki and on EN wiki their (or should I say her?) edits have only been directed to the topic of Song's alleged affair with Jiang Zemin. FOARP (talk) 14:07, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a rumor. All the reliable sources say it's unconfirmed gossip. It can't be treated as anything but a rumor. It can't be treated as a story we think is probably true and then write about it as it "probably could have" happened. The gossip itself has had an outside effect, and we might have an argument to write about that, in the same way we would write about the effect of a health scare that had nothing behind it. But we can't repeat admitted speculation in any way that makes it seem like we think it is more than speculation. Putting an occasional "allegedly", while proceeding to add salacious detail and unknowable narrative, is still not BLP compliant. We can't have material like "Allegedly this person slept with a thousand people and allegedly liked it and allegedly is looking to steal lunch money." just because it includes the word "Allegedly". We could arguably have material like "Rumors of an alleged affair affected this person's career during this year, and the government censored material in this way." as long as it's supported by better sources. We can describe what (verifiably-from-sources) resulted from a rumor, but we shouldn't repeat made-up details of the gossip itself.<span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ E L A Q U E A T E  13:53, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Shorter: There's a huge difference in BLP-compatibility between A rumor of an affair forced her to reschedule this concert. and Here's the exact wording of what we think they might have written in their love letters. She was divorced and it allegedly could have been because of...<span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#01110f;font-size:66%;">__ E L A Q U E A T E  14:07, 16 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The edits seem OK. However, User:Songfans continues to repeatedly delete this section and is doing the same over at CN wiki. Perhaps this article could be protected? FOARP (talk) 10:52, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Jim Zeigler
A minor Alabama politician currently running for state office appears to be using his Wikipedia biography for promotional purposes. According to a blog post attributed to the subject himself, published less than 2 weeks ago, "Jim Zeigler, a candidate for Alabama State Auditor, is using Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia, to reach voters. Zeigler registered the domain name ZeiglerStory.com and linked it to the lengthy Wikipedia article detailing his life."

was blocked at the end of January but two other accounts have made multiple promotional edits since then, mostly/exclusively on the Jim Zeigler article:
 * (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jim_Zeigler&diff=prev&oldid=604371679 )
 * (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jim_Zeigler&diff=prev&oldid=604371679 )

I'm less concerned by a third username because so far they've just made one edit, today, which is inappropriately worded but is plausible based on the sourcing: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jim_Zeigler&diff=next&oldid=595665870

Semi-protection until the election (November) might be helpful, if the page survives AfD, but perhaps Historicalrevision and Alabamaverify should also be warned? Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 22:11, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree with Jodi.a.schneider. Open SPI at Sockpuppet investigations/Historicalrevision. BigDwiki (talk) 02:03, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Also noticed an older account that mainly edited this page, also promotionally, in 2008. Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 08:08, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Costas Varotsos
Can someone(s) cast their eyes over Costas Varotsos and assess if the puffery tag is still appropriate. Via OTRS the subject has been in touch requesting removal of the tag or deletion of the article. Nthep (talk) 16:11, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Why is the text of the article also on the talk page? Any special reason for this? --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 16:38, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe that was the proposed revision which don't garner any comment so the editor made the change anyway. Nthep (talk) 16:41, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank u. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 16:45, 20 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I did a bit of cleanup and added to watchlist. Cwobeel (talk)

Please change my last name
I am listed on Wikipedia with my former last name "Yush" I would greatly appreciate it to have my name changed back to my name "Kostiew". I have been divorced from Yush for three years and would appreciate my name to reflect my single status! Thank you. Kristal Kostiew
 * I've moved the article (the opening sentence was previously changed). -- Neil N  <sup style="color:blue;">talk to me  05:53, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
 * And I've added a source confirming the name, as well as removing unref info. GiantSnowman 12:52, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Sean Lien
Eyes needed at, especially those that can read and identify Chinese and Taiwanese reliable sources.

Running for political office and subject to both blatant promotional fluff from supporters and flaming from opposition. 12:40, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Devyani Khobragade
This article was previously referred to this noticeboard in draft form, see WP:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive195. There is an ongoing dispute regarding the content of the now published BLP article which is extensive and largely negative, see diff. The article currently as a 'controversy' section which I understand is not the preferred form of presentation for BLP articles. See also Devyani Khobragade incident, and Adarsh Housing Society scam. There are difficult considerations as to whether undue weight is being placed on sourced material related to controversial issues, and including information from primary sources. Reference is also being added to the caste of the subject which seems a sensitive area. I think this article would benefit from input regarding the current state of the article and the proposed changes from those experienced in this area. --nonsense ferret  21:33, 21 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The issue is worse, with sources being misrepresented to support factually incorrect statements to Khobragade's detriment, such as the claim that she was "implicated in the dismissal of Indian Foreign Service officer Mahaveer Singhvi" or that a 2013 inquiry commission stated "that she made a false statement in order to obtain membership of the housing society". Huon (talk) 22:04, 21 April 2014 (UTC)


 * It also should be noted that the article concerning Devyani's father Uttam Khobragade has a controversies section, and he is due to stand for election in May. --nonsense ferret  22:08, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Francis Charron
The article about NHL referee Francis Charron may need page protection to prevent continuing BLP violations such as this one diff. Edit warriors may need additional warnings or other admin actions. Dolovis (talk) 18:25, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Jason Russell RfC
I suggest the RfC at Talk:Jason Russell has a clear consensus barring a single editor holding forth on his position. It has run three weeks now (a full month from the start of the discussion this time out, but prior discussions going back at least two years each reached the same conclusion), and is pretty much a SNOW consensus IMO. I was told by the editor not to dare comment out accusations of a sex act which is a crime, as the matter was "still being discussed." The answer is to find someone uninvolved to determine whether a consensus exists at the RfC (which I believe to be the case) thus removing his cavil that the accusation not be commented out of the talk page. At ewhich point, archiving the whole mess would, IMO, be called for. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:22, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Carson Block/Muddy Waters Research


Hi all,

These two articles are absolutely disgracefully negative towards the subject. Whatever their misdeeds may be, there's no way (in my opinion) that it is encyclopedic to be presenting information in this manner. I was going to wade in myself and just stubbify both articles per BLP, but reviewing the history, I would probably be overrun in trying to do so. Would someone be able to help me out in reducing the articles per BLP and then assisting with maintaining them going forwards?

Screw it, I just went ahead and stubbified myself. I'm going to semi-protect both articles due to the severe BLP violations over the past week, but some more eyes on it would be great.

Regards, Daniel (talk) 20:46, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * (Ping Happymonsoonday1.)

patrick stump
he's not marrried to anyone named kyra. he's married to elisa yao — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.65.198.151 (talk) 04:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thanks. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Sean.hoyland  - talk 04:45, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Subhash Kapoor (art dealer)
Subject is on trial, but has not been convicted of a crime. Article refers to him as "disgraced", and I am unconvinced that they are notable independently from their legal troubles. Thoughts? VQuakr (talk) 06:50, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I made it a bit more neutral and removed some OR and unsourced information. Not sure if this would qualify as a BLP1E, since I didn't actually research what other coverage of the man is out there. But if it is then an AFD is probably a good idea. § FreeRangeFrog croak 07:44, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Ronn Torossian
Need fresh eyes as there are many special interest editors here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronn_Torossian Richielapiock (talk) 09:57, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
 * This is a big mess of poor references. I commented.  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  10:39, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Victoria Espinel
I reverted an odd and unsourced note that she is not a patent attorney, but then reviewed the article. It looks pretty good except likely out of date - the last sentence appears to suggest that she left the White House job last year. But the lede still describes that in the present tense. I'm too busy today to study it further so I thought I'd flag it here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:38, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I sorted that issue for you Jimmy, updated the head and added verification. Mosfetfaser (talk) 21:04, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I have the same issues as Jimbo; the article could use additions about the policy initiatives Espinel undertook in office as well. --Doctorow (talk) 17:19, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I just removed the six-point plan stuff - that belongs somewhere else. There are still some WP:UNDUE and OR concerns with that article. The problem with adding that type of content to a biography is that the article ceases to be a biography and becomes a coatrack for issues instead. § FreeRangeFrog croak 19:55, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Good idea to remove that, it was copy paste from the internet. Mosfetfaser (talk) 21:07, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Kiesza birthdate source twitter synthesis
In the Kiesza article the birthdate is being sourced to a Twitter thread, where somebody thanks somebody for wishing them a happy birthday. That gives the month and day of the birthdate. They then combine that with the age, from a reliable source (the Guardian) to give an exact date, which is not available anywhere else (confirmed by Googling date with name together). --Rob (talk) 03:10, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Removed and placed a notice on the user's talk. Cwobeel (talk) 03:21, 24 April 2014 (UTC)


 * No reliable source, no DOB, period. § FreeRangeFrog croak 03:21, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley
How much space should be discussing his climate change views? See Talk:Christopher_Monckton,_3rd_Viscount_Monckton_of_Brenchley. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:32, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Where his views take up two sentences, and the criticisms take up seven paragraphs, there is an eensy chance that UNDUE is being hit - especially since his views as stated do not appear to be sledgehammer-worthy. Collect (talk) 23:32, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * As of right now, Christopher_Monckton,_3rd_Viscount_Monckton_of_Brenchley is down to a respectable, undue, size. I suggest semi-protection for a week or so. Bearian (talk) 17:48, 24 April 2014 (UTC) The indef protection seems to be overkill. Bearian (talk) 17:49, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Asian Boyz
Named article is about a criminal street gang. At issue is the "own work" image depicting (presumably) living individuals, File:Members_of_ABZ_2014-04-22_21-11.jpg. It is my feeling that this constitutes a BLP violation as its inclusion effectively states that the individuals depicted are members of a criminal organization. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 01:28, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Sergei Ivanovich Vasiliev
There's a bit of clamoring here about this BLP on a Russian big shot. If someone who knows Russian could have a look at it, that would be even greater. Drmies (talk) 17:38, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

peggy noonan
The current wiki page for peggy noonan mentions rumors of an affair. One of the two sources is a dead link, the second merely refers to rumors. I tried to delete this text but it was reverted. I think it should be deleted because (a) it is poorly sourced and seemingly libelous (b) because, even if true, it is a personal matter not appropriate for a wiki biography. I note that the other party in the alleged affair has a wiki page that does not mention the incident, which is a dubious double standard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:EA00:103:4804:0:0:0:1F (talk) 18:43, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I have removed the sentence about the rumors, and watchlisted the article. Cwobeel (talk) 20:06, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Ken Ham
This BLP is turning into a biased attack piece, spearheaded by an editor who insists that when editing a biography of a deeply religious person, it's okay to take the position that "Scientists do have facts, what religious people have is faith" and describe the subject's beliefs as "this particular religious nonsense" Assistance is requested. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 00:14, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * This same editor also asserts that the article subject "believes his fiction is reality" . DavidLeighEllis (talk) 00:23, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * So I'm "spearheading" a coordinated attack on Ken Ham? I feel so important now :P
 * I welcome any editor to stop by the talk page and revise the article, I'm not the only editor making edits and discussing them in the TP by a long shot. And I stand by my comments: scientists have facts, religious people have faith and claiming the Earth is 6000 years old is nonsense to the full extent of the word. That's pretty much common sense I'd say. Regards. Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  00:30, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Editors who are absolutely sure the person is a "loon" should step back for a minute or two and recognize that we can only use the opinions directly expressed in reliable sources, and cited as opinions. The problem is that some editors are absolutely sure that Ham has a hole in his head and therefore Wikipedia must state he has a hole in his head.  The real issue is that Ham believes in the "literal inerrancy of the Bible"  and we are seeing the classic intersection of science and religion once again on Wikipedia. Collect (talk) 00:34, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * "we can only use the opinions directly expressed in reliable sources", agree 100% "and cited as opinions" disagree to some extent. WP:ASSERT is clear on stating undisputed facts as such and WP:UNDUE prevents us from putting WP:FRINGE nonsense on the same level as hard facts as if they were two sides of the same coin. Whether an editor believes Ham is a loon or not is immaterial if said editor does not let it affect its editing. Regards. Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  01:11, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * But that's exactly the problem, isn't it? The belief that science is fact and religion is fiction is a POV, not The Truth. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 01:22, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Moreover, only as science are Ham's beliefs fringe. As religion, they're shared by rather large number of Christians. WP:SPOV was rejected for a reason. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 01:26, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * And this an encyclopedia, not a religious pamphlet so science facts are facts and religious claims are, at best, unprovable & unfalsifiable claims. In this particular case Ham's religious claims are also WP:FRINGE utter nonsense. I'm sorry but this isn't Conservapedia and we do not give equal weight to what religion might say about scientific facts about the real world we live in. Regards. Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  01:35, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:ASSERT is not a policy, folks. And it clearly states that opinions must be stated as opinions. When people say they wish to state something as a fact because of WP:ASSERT it means they did not read it much at all. (when a statement is an opinion (a matter which is subject to dispute) it should be attributed to the source that offered the opinion using inline-text attribution. ) Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:38, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It also clearly states that "When a statement is a fact (a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute) it should be asserted without prefixing it with "(Source) says that ..." which this case fits precisely. There is absolutely no serious dispute (keyword: serious) about the age of the Earth.
 * The status of WP:ASSERT might not be a policy but it is directly related to a very important one: WP:NPOV. We could discuss its importance as a stand-alone section, but that's a whole different issue. If you think we should go around WP attributing all known and undisputed facts to the "scientific community" then this would look like a terribly different encyclopedia. Regards. Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  01:52, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Such attribution would be superfluous in a purely scientific context, where only the scientific POV is relevant. When we're dealing with the nexus of science and religion, as in this article, attribution becomes necessary to avoid taking sides by implying that science = truth and religion = fantasy, as indeed you are claiming. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 01:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * This page is to discuss BLP problems, not claims about other editors. Please provide a brief outline of what text in the article is a BLP problem, or what text should be added to the article. Johnuniq (talk) 01:37, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The lead gives undue weight to Bill Nye's comments and does not attribute the mainstream scientific view of Ham's beliefs as the mainstream scientific view, but simply asserts that they are unqualifiedly inconsistent with the available evidence. The lead also uses "former high school science teacher" as a derogatory epithet. The reception section is comprised entirely of negative material. And that's just for starters. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 01:46, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Re "attribute the mainstream scientific view": what edit is proposed? Surely you do not think an article needs to say "according to X the universe is older than 6000 years"? It would be silly to require attribution for such the sky is blue statements. Science makes planes fly and provides the infrastructure used by Wikipedia—it's a different kind of "belief" than when someone declares the world is 6000 years old. Problems on articles like this often come from each side trying to push the article too far. Johnuniq (talk) 01:59, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The proposed attribution is, for reasons explained above. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 02:06, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course, if you take only the most positive aspects of science and the most negative aspects of religion into account, something along the lines of "science makes planes fly and religion makes planes fly into buildings", the result will be very skewed. Is that in fact Wikipedia's house POV? DavidLeighEllis (talk) 02:13, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * That diff shows the insertion of "The mainstream scientific view of" which carries the suggestion that there is some doubt concerning whether there is any physical evidence to support biblical literalism, presumably on the basis that one person's opinion is as good as another's. There is no BLP problem shown in that diff, and there is no need to suggest that there is something called a "mainstream scientific view". Sometimes there is scientific disagreement about details, and it may occasionally be appropriate to refer to a mainstream view, but there is absolutely no difference of opinion regarding the text shown in that diff—it's just FRINGE vs. reliable sources. Johnuniq (talk) 03:24, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree. DavidLeighEllis claims are just bizarre (being called a "former high school science teacher" is derogatory...since when? Should I be ashamed of having taught science in my life now?). I would understand moving Bill Nye quote from the lead to somewhere else in the article, but apart from that, facts are facts, and any dilution of the utter clash between Ham's views and reality would be pushing pro-creationist fringe POV. -- cyclopia <sup style="color:red;">speak! 11:33, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old. We don't need to "attribute" that fact to the "scientific community". It would sound ridiculous to say that the Earth is round, or that it revolves around the sun, "according to the scientific community". It sounds just as ridiculous here. These are widely accepted objective realities, and as a reality-based encyclopedia we convey them as such. Where a specific individual (for instance, Ham) holds beliefs which conflict with objective reality, then we can respectfully describe those beliefs without calling him names. But we cannot pretend or imply that there is any serious dispute about the objective reality of the Earth's age. MastCell Talk 16:28, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * per WP:LEAD and WP:NPOV we acknowledge any prominent controversies in the lead. Ham's notability lies entirely  in his controversial advocacy of pushing utter fringe non-science into the classrooms, and particularly science classrooms, on an equivalent basis as science. Nye's comments are fully representative of the mainstream academic views of the controversies surrounding Ham and Ham's advocacy of promoting non-science nonsense as science. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  17:51, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Having just skimmed the BLP policy, I don't really see a violation of that policy here. Describing him a former high-school science teacher doesn't seem derogatory at all, and is relevent. If I understand the BLP policy correctly, the main thrust to eliminate risk of defamation. What is potentially defamatory in the article? Howunusual (talk) 18:47, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

note: as of this point, the following is in the lead of the BLP:
 * His claim that the universe is 6,000 years old, based on his interpretation of the Bible, is contradicted by evidence from astronomy and from the Earth's fossil and geological records.[3][4][n 2] According to an article in the Courier-Journal, Ham's rejection of established science during the debate with Bill Nye was a "harm [to] the education of children and hamper[ing] the nation's ability to innovate."[6]

so the issues are: Is this a fair summary of the article? and Is this material neutrally worded per WP:NPOV and WP:BLP.

One earlier version read as:
 * His claim that the universe is only 6,000 years old, based on his interpretation of the Bible, is considered incorrect by the scientific community as it is contradicted by all physical evidence found in the Earth's fossil, biological and geological records

And earlier yet was:
 * His claims about the young age of the earth have been condemned by virtually all members of the scientific community.[4][5][6][7]

So one may note the evolution of the last part of the lead. Collect (talk) 19:30, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Personally, I'd prefer something simple and factual, like: "Ham argues, based on his belief in the literal truth of the Bible, that the Earth is 6,000 years old rather than its actual age of approximately 4.5 billion years." Is that a problem? MastCell Talk 21:24, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * If that is all that is in the lead, then yes it is problematical in that it fails to identify why Ham is notable - that he is promoting non science as science and has been at the center of much controversy for doing so. per WP:LEAD / WP:NPOV / WP:BLP.--  TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  22:26, 16 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Editors may find that Why Wikipedia cannot claim the earth is not flat is of some relevance to this case. Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 19:19, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that the current language does not adequately reinforce the magnitude of evidence against Young Earth Creationism. What about an alteration of the version above:
 * "His claim that the universe is only 6,000 years old, based on his interpretation of the Bible, is contradicted by the scientific community's overwhelming consensus on evidence from astronomy and from the Earth's fossil and geological records."
 * This references the controversial nature of his notability, rather than presenting his beliefs as possessing an (even remotely) equal footing with science, or even average Christian beliefs. Finally, coming from an educational background, there is absolutely nothing defamatory about referring to him as a high school teacher.  Granted, if he also happened to have worked at CERN then that should take precedence, but in the meantime... The Cap&#39;n (talk) 08:16, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Deny science


The article List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming is a list of scientists who have expressed some differences of opinions with the mainstream understanding of global warming. For example, one of the scientists on the list is Judith Curry, widely recognized as one of the leading experts in the field, and currently the "chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the Georgia Institute of Technology". In this edit User:Ronz states:



Let's be clear, these scientists are like creationists in that they deny science.

While there may be a creationist in the list, the remark is not limited in any way, and cast aspersions on all entries on that list. IMO, to claim that a scientist denies science is not acceptable (save very solid evidence, which is not supplied). I hoped this was just a rhetorical excess, and the editor would remove if asked. I asked (with the intention of removing my own quote) if the editor would revert, but the editor declined to remove the remark and claims it is supported. These are all scientists, who have expressed reservations about some aspects of a UN document. To characterize those reservations as "deny[ing] science" is over the top.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  23:53, 17 April 2014 (UTC)


 * This is a problem, specifically as the editor is trying to insert other creationism items into this list in order to share his (perceived) link between these scientists and creationists. Capitalismojo (talk) 00:03, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Seems that some editors are incapable of reading comments, sources, and related articles. Where shall we start? The main discussion is here. Note that both editors above have claimed that I am saying the entries in the list are of "denialists". In both cases I pointed out that this is (at best) changing the topic of the discussion. I've tried to make it very clear, making initial attempts to provide sources and links to related Wikipedia articles, that clearly show that the entries are scientists who are part of the climate change denial efforts: "Specifically, the denialists find (often paying) people who can be passed off as "experts" to be used to create a sense that there is scientific doubt." So to be even clearer, I'm not saying that each person in the list is a denier, only that each person is important and listed because they are part of the denial efforts in that they are held up as "experts" when they are not. --Ronz (talk) 15:54, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

So, let's actually focus on improving the article. The content in dispute is the addition to "See also" of a link to Project Steve. The BLP concerns are that: --Ronz (talk) 16:02, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Adding the link implies that the people listed are creationists. --Ronz (talk) 16:02, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * 2) Adding the link is insulting to the people listed. --Ronz (talk) 16:02, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * 3) The article is not actually related to science denialism and climate change denialism in any way, much less evolution denialism. --Ronz (talk) 16:02, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Ronz I agree that the above diff is problematic in relation to Wikipedia's strict policy on BLPs and has a general disrespectful tone that is not appropriate for talk pages involving BLPs. The same disrespectful tone is seen in their next edit about the listed scientists being paid by "denialists" and then passed off as experts. It's important to keep in mind that Wikipedia is not the right place to sound off how stupid you think some people are or similar. The more controversial the topic is, the more weight should be placed on keeping the discussion formal and correct; avoiding loaded language, insinuations etc. Unfortunately, I have seen also before that there is a problem with this at that particular talk page, as well as with multiple others. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 16:12, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Have you looked at the sources and related articles, or are you saying it doesn't matter? --Ronz (talk) 16:15, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, if it is "tone", do instruct me on how to change the tone while keeping the information and context. --Ronz (talk) 16:16, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I thank Ronz for posting here, and making clear the lack of knowledge of the subject matter. Many of the editors not familiar with the climate debate may be reading but are not familiar with some of the terminology. Roughly speaking, "skeptics" are those who disagree with some aspects of the mainstream scientific consensus as embodied in the IPCC reports. A small subset of skeptics are those who could be called deniers. They actively and vehemently deny almost all aspect of the climate change issue, sometimes even claiming that is not a greenhouse gas. We have an article about climate change denial. The article in question List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming is not about the denialists.


 * There is a tiny bit of overlap, but the climate change denial article talks about the entire effort to deny the scientific consensus, but is not limited to scientists. In fact, most of the major players in the denialist group are not scientists. In contrast, by definition, all the members of List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming are scientists and most would not consider themselves denialist. Most accept that is a greenhouse gas, most accept that the earth has generally been warming over the last century, most accept that human action contributes meaningfully. However, they are not all on board with all of the conclusion in the IPCC reports.


 * As the talk page will demonstrate, Ronz has been told this many times. Yet Ronz persists in acting as if List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming is about denialism.


 * Most of the members of the list are scientists who spend much of their lives doing science, and applying for grants to do more science. To have them labeled "like creationists in that they deny science" is quite unacceptable, and should be removed. I asked Ronz to remove it voluntarily. I now ask for a consensus that this BLP violation can be removed (I do understand I could remove it, and then debate it, but I'd like to see some others weigh in first).-- S Philbrick  (Talk)  16:25, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I concur. Wikipedia is here to provide information, not to make judgments about people or to make such implications about people. Collect (talk) 16:40, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Hello? Sources? Related articles? Or just "tone"? --Ronz (talk) 16:44, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Ronz. I am not quite sure by which articles and sources you are referring to when you ask if I have looked at them. What I have looked at is for instance this article in a Norwegian newspaper written by holders of the mainstream view who discusses who the climate sceptics are and why they are sceptic. Money is not mentioned at all; nor that there are any "denialists" who lure them into becoming sceptics and then put them forward as experts. What is listed as reasons for scepticism among scientits is age and paradigm shift. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 16:48, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * So you haven't looked at the sources offered, and this isn't about "tone"? As I pointed out, I only offered some initial sources (19:59, 16 April 2014), which have been ignored so far. They are: "The Denial Machine", "The Scientist Deniers", and "The Oxford Handbook of Climate Change and Society" and are currently in the article. --Ronz (talk) 17:06, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I suggest reading the entire chapter to better get a sense of the context, but here's the beginning and end of : --Ronz (talk) 18:06, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * "From the earliest stages of climate change denial the fossil fuels industry and conservative think tanks, and their fronts groups like GCC, recognized the importance of employing credentialed scientists to manufacture uncertainty concerning climate change (building on the tobacco industry’s success with this strategy—Oreskes and Conway 2010), and they readily found scientists who were eager to assist (Gelbspan 1997; McCright 2007). Some had expertise relevant to climate science (e.g. Patrick Michaels and Fred Singer), but many did not.
 * ...Indeed, Monbiot’s (2007) characterization of the ‘denial industry’ reﬂects the fact that climate change denial now offers the possibility of a rewarding ‘career’ for contrarian scientists and others eager to work with CTTs, front groups, and conservative media."
 * I read the chapter. I found zero support for the notion that the list of scientists in the article were like creationists or that they deny science. Do you have other sources making the claim?-- S Philbrick (Talk)  19:10, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm glad we're finally focusing on the initial sources that I provided.
 * I am focusing on "deny science" which you have identified as the topic of this discussion. For sources relating evolution denial to climate change denial, I think we should wait, but if you like, start at NCSE's website, the creator's of Project Steve.
 * The source puts these scientists in the context of climate change denial, correct?
 * The source states the scientists are being used to manufacture uncertainty concerning climate change, correct? --Ronz (talk) 19:21, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The source puts these scientists in the context of climate change denial, correct?
 * The source states the scientists are being used to manufacture uncertainty concerning climate change, correct? --Ronz (talk) 19:21, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think it is appropriate to start with the National Center for Science Education website
 * 1) It is a primary source, which can be used with caution as a reference for the NCSE article.
 * 2) It is an organization primarily in the business of education re creationism (have you read our article, it is almost solely about creationism?) and only recently has it undertaken to do some work on the climate field, a subject matter which is barely recognized in the article.
 * 3) It isn't a reference to the List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming which is the article in question.

Do you have sources used in the article supporting your claim?-- S Philbrick (Talk)  22:20, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * So you are withdrawing your concerns about "deny science" and moving on to "these scientists are like creationists"? If so, I'm happy to offer sources rather than confusing people with suggesting they look for them starting with NCSE's website. --Ronz (talk) 23:08, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * No, I withdrew nothing. Please try posting responsibly. The claim you made is quoted in the fourth line of this section. It is a BLP violation, unless you can provide acceptable sources to support it. You have not. I'm tried of the obfuscation. Not a single contributor has supported your position. I've removing it, and you can see if you can get a consensus to restore it.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  23:30, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Then lets focus on "deny science". --Ronz (talk) 23:32, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * "The source puts these scientists in the context of climate change denial, correct?"
 * "The source states the scientists are being used to manufacture uncertainty concerning climate change, correct?" --Ronz (talk) 23:52, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * You are making the claim. You cite the source and show it supports your claim. Please. If you can.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  01:29, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Since the other editors involved in this dispute don't appear interested in examining the sources, or at least responding to questions about them, let's just forget context for a moment.


 * These scientists object to the scientific consensus because they are on the list. Correct?
 * Objecting to scientific consensus means they deny the science. Correct? (Strikeout: Because we are specifically ignoring the context of their objections, we simply don't know. --Ronz (talk) 16:19, 24 April 2014 (UTC))
 * Other well known groups that deny science are creationists and the tobacco industry. Correct?
 * These scientists are like the scientists that the creationists and tobacco industry have listed in their various lists. Correct? --Ronz (talk) 14:54, 19 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Please wp:FOC and avoid characterizing the motives of other editors. Thank-you.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  21:29, 19 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Your first statement is an overly simplistic summary. These people are on the list because they challenge some aspects of the consensus. It is at least misleading to baldly state they object to the scientific [consensus]. However, the real key is the second statement. One can object to some aspect of a scientific consensus without denying science. This isn't a small or technical point, it is quite common. For example Judith Curry largely buys into the mean projections of temperature, but believes the confidence expressed in the estimates is too high. This is a subject in my wheelhouse, but it is fairly obvious to anyone with scientific training. It is reasonably straightforward to calculate confidence intervals around artificial experiments, such as coin tossing or dice outcomes. It is significantly more complicated to do the same exercise with even simple models of reality, and climate models are far removed from simple models. Subjective assumptions must be made and reasonable experts can reach different conclusions about how to make such assumptions. That is an issue with a single climate model, but there are dozens, and the results need to be combined. That process isn't mathematically rigorous, and well-meaning scientists sit together and reach some conclusions. Not a single person would come up with exactly the same results if they calculated on their own, but presumably, they reach a conclusion that all in the room can accept. However, scientist not in the room may reach a different conclusion, and it might be sufficiently different that they are not willing to state that they share all aspects of the consensus. This is the way science works. They aren't denying science. (Creationism is denying science, but that's a different kettle of fish.)-- S Philbrick (Talk)  22:18, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Please stop wasting our time here. Thanks. --Ronz (talk) 03:01, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * One note about the assertion "Objecting to scientific consensus means they deny the science" - this is completely false as a general assertion. Objecting to scientific consensus is an important part of science, if made through reasoned arguments subject to peer review. So holding a contrarian posture does not necessarily make these scientists denialists. Diego (talk) 16:57, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Please someone kick me the next time I try to summarize something specifically out of context.
 * If a person places their name on a petition like the ones identified, they're either a denier or ignorant of what they're doing. As the article in question removes the people from the context of their statements, we simply don't know which applies. However, this is at best unrelated to any content changes being discussed, nor are the discussions on the article talk page violations violations of BLP. --Ronz (talk) 16:15, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the compromise of "like creationists, they reject overwhelming scientific consensus." That establishes that they are considered inherently disreputable as scientific sources while not entering the quagmire of whether scientists can dispute scientific consensus and retain the title (they can, IMHO; though most of the lists of denying scientists make me doubt their qualifications/ethics, that's OR). The Cap&#39;n (talk) 07:39, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, though this isn't related to any content being considered for inclusion. --Ronz (talk) 16:32, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

A procedural question
Ronz states ''content in dispute is the addition to "See also" of a link to Project Steve. ''. That is the subject of the talk page discussion but not the subject here. The attempt by Ronz to insert that link has been reverted, on BLP and other grounds. This discussion is about the BLP violation on the talk page added by Ronz (and quoted above). It just occurred to me that it might be a more efficient process to remove it as a BLP violation, and then discuss it here only if Ronz retries to revert it back in. I apologize for asking; even though I've been around for years, I think this is my first BLP issue.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  16:37, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * "See Also" is for links to material directly on point to the topic. "Project Steve" is not relevant in that manner.  And all talk pages must also conform to WP:BLP  which means if something is a BLP violation in an article, it is also one on a talk page.   Collect (talk) 16:40, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * We'll need more than a simple assertion to determine consensus. --Ronz (talk) 16:44, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * The discussion is about adding the link to See also, but we might just want to focus on what is and are not BLP violations on the talk page first. --Ronz (talk) 16:46, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * No it isn't. If you would like to start a separate section about that issue feel free. This discussion is about your claim that the scientists in the list are denying science.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  22:24, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * As I suggested, we agree to focus on what are and are not BLP violations on the talk page. --Ronz (talk) 22:56, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * You have not addressed the BLP concerns here. Adding refs (apparently blogs and opinion pieces)to support your supposition (that scientists who disagree with the IPCC are like creationists) at the talk page doesn't address the BLP issue raised by multiple editors above. Capitalismojo (talk) 00:14, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry you feel that way. --Ronz (talk) 14:59, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

BLPTALK
BLPTALK says, "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced and not related to making content choices should be removed, deleted, or oversighted, as appropriate."

The comment in dispute is on the talk page, in a discussion about content choices, as part of the explanation for including content to the article. Correct? --Ronz (talk) 15:57, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * My understanding of WP:BLP is that most of the rules, and especially those relating to mentioning contentious materials, apply only to the article itself. It's unfeasible to restrict what content can be discussed on the talk page in such a broad way.  The talk page is where controversial comments and perspectives belong, so they can be discussed and vetted.  If things veer into personal attacks or WP:UNCIVIL that's another matter, but I've seen far, far worse than an unflattering simile on WP talk pages without it becoming a BLP issue.  The comment in question would be hard to justify in the article itself without a direct, significant source, but seems perfectly at home in discussion on the talk page. The Cap&#39;n (talk) 07:47, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks! --Ronz (talk) 16:33, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Russell Targ
I am the subject of a Wikipedia biography. I am an 80 year old retired physicist. I have two issues: 1. From 1956 to 1972 I was involved in the development of the first lasers, working closely with laser patent holder Gordon Gould at TRG Inc. From 1985 to 1997 I worked at Lockheed and NASA on high-power lasers, laser communication and airborne wind-shear detection with lasers (LIDAR). Three review articles in Applied Optics. My numerous publications are continually expunged from my Wiki page. Why is this? My life's work is 25 years with lasers and 10 years with parapsychology. I am well known in the laser field. Why is all reference to my laser work erased. 2. In 1972 I was co-founder of an applied ESP program with Harold Puthoff at Stanford Research Institute. We were supported by the CIA to find American hostages, downed Russian airplanes, report of Chinese A-bomb tests. We found the kidnap car from the Patricia Hearst kidnapping, etc. Why am I not allowed to say that we had a "23 year, $20 million" program? That is well known to be true. Our remote viewing is widely replicated internationally. It is also criticized. But the CIA and NASA considered the criticisms bogus. I am willing for Wiki to feature the criticisms. But I feel it is unfair to erase my responses. We also made $120,000 forecasting changes in the silver commodity market in 1982. Widely published, Wall Street Journal, etc. Ex-CIA director Robert Gates said on television that we didn't provide any useful information to the CIA during our 25 year tenure. That's a lie. Why would they continue to give us $1 million a year for 23 years, if we didn't give them anything useful. Signed: Russell Targ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Torgownik (talk • contribs) 21:00, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Targ (if you are really him) you have a history of deleting criticism from your article. You also have a history of edit warring and inserting original research (and personal commentary) into your article. You need to read up on Wikipedia policies. You say you are "well known in the laser field" but no reliable secondary sources indicate this (you have cited none). You claim your remote viewing was widely replicated but you give no references for this claim either. You need to cite reliable secondary sources if you are going to add material on Wikipedia. Adding in your your own papers is not recommended because they have not been mentioned in reliable secondary sources (if they have then feel free to cite references) but other users such as myself have looked and there are not any, that is why the primary papers that you published were deleted. The references that are on the article seem to indicate you are well known for your paranormal claims, not scientific work. Goblin Face (talk) 22:47, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Where has he had more impact?


 * I've reformatted things, a little. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:18, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Cleaned up a bit as well Cwobeel (talk) 23:28, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I can imagine that would be frustrating as all get-out, Torgownik, but we do need sources to back up any statement on WP. That being said, individual editors add in the sources (and thus the statements) that they are familiar with, so skewed perspectives can inadvertently develop that leave out big parts of a given topic.  If you have sources (preferably secondary) that mention your work with lasers and ESP successes, please let us know.  If you're not familiar with the referencing process, let me know and I'd be happy to help get your page into shape as an accurate, neutral depiction of your life. The Cap&#39;n (talk) 07:56, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Ta-Nehisi Coates
This article was the subject of edit-warring by a single-purpose account and an RFC which clearly showed consensus to omit all mention of a childhood arrest. The same editor has returned after a block and implemented a version of the article which mentions the arrest, in contravention of this consensus. I have requested that the editor open a new RFC in order to determine whether or not consensus has changed before implementation, and this editor has instead engaged in revert-warring contentious negative material into the article. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:46, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The editor reporting this has made a consistent habit of deriding me and my contributions to Wikipedia and mischaracterizing the debate.  See my Talk page where I address the SPA issue, which the editor never mentioned.  I am trying to edit this article and started an RfC which was immediately deleted by an involved, opposing user, who then reported me on the Vandalism page  for this edit  to my own Talk page.  As a result, I was banned and the RfC was speedily closed by the same user.  I then worked out a compromise with an admin and offered it on the discussion page, where it attracted 4 user comments.  Based on that, I made the edit.  Now the above editor who was the dissenter from the discussion has again resorted to reporting me, ironically only now saying he thought the edit was mostly ok.  It's hardly fair to ignore discussion then run to the noticeboard if you can't handle a debate.  Useitorloseit (talk) 03:05, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * You clearly pass the duck test as an SPA. Don't like it, then maybe you should drop your single-minded fixation on inserting negative material into Ta-Nehisi Coates' biography - 95% of all your edits on the encyclopedia are related to the page. Your bias in this matter was declared way back in February, when you stated your intent to smear Coates as a "criminal." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:10, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Again you ignore my Talk page which addresses all this. I just don't edit Wikipedia very often.  And I think this is a worthy edit being dismissed by editors acting in bad faith such as yourself.  I provided diffs above to give examples.  Useitorloseit (talk) 03:26, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * On your talk page, you deny being an SPA but your current edit history shows that you have been totally obsessed with painting Ta-Nehisi Coates negatively ever since your very first edit on February 19, using an edit summary calling him a "criminal". Editing actions speak louder than user page words.  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328  Let's discuss it  03:37, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * So what? I only have one edit I wanted to make, yet it is impossible because those opposed (like you) won't discuss it, except to revert me.  Based on this experience, why would I want to edit anything else? Useitorloseit (talk) 03:45, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * When the one edit you want to make is not supported by policy nor consensus, that is a HUGE issue. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  01:15, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * So what? Here's what, . You came off a block and immediately resumed the same pattern of tendentious editing. Experienced editors here earn respect by neutrally editing a wide range of articles. You zero in on a single article, doggedly determined to make the subject look bad. The "so what" contrast couldn't be any more clear. Many of us are here to build an encyclopedia. It seems clear that you are here for another purpose entirely. Please cease and desist.  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328   Let's discuss it  06:46, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I happen to believe this fact enhances the reader's understanding of where the subject is coming from, and helps to evaluate his credibility on the issues he writes about. The fact that it's negative is essentially beside the point.  he writes about troubled youth; he had a troubled youth; that makes it relevant.  You have consistently impugned my motives despite my repeated attempts to focus on content.  I don't think you're displaying any of the proper spirit of Wikipedia.  Useitorloseit (talk) 20:49, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
 * You have not been able to support your personal belief by providing reliable third party sources that think it is as important as you do. Without such, your single minded insistence on this tiny aspect of a single topic is going to become more and more troublesome as people assess whether you are here to improve the encyclopedia or simply advance your personal agenda against a living person -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  05:01, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Anyone who's ever worked in editing knows the battles that can break out over seemingly minor wording. Wikipedia is usually the first thing that comes up when you Google anything now, so it's important to have it be as perfect as possible.  I am willing to bet a lot of Wikipedia edits are made by low-volume editors like me.  As noted on the Talk page, I have changed usernames several times but only have a few lasting edits total.  There's reliable sources for this notable event in the subject's life and I believe it deserves inclusion.  It's as simple as that.  Useitorloseit (talk) 19:35, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Otabek Mahkamov
Recently I wrote an article about the Uzbek actor and lawyer Otabek Mahkamov. While reading Mahkamov's interviews that have been published in Uzbek tabloids and entertainment journals, I noticed some contradictions in claims Mahkamov has made about his academic qualifications.

Mahkamov has claimed that he studied at the "Central European Legal University/the Central European University of Law" (Markaziy Yevropa huquqshunoslik universiteti), which is ostensibly located in Budapest. I spent two years in Budapest, but I never heard about this university. Moreover, I couldn't find this university on any website that lists universities in Budapest, including this one. When I personally contacted Mahkamov, I got some ambiguous answers. I pointed out to him that there's no university in Budapest that's called "the Central European Legal University/the Central European University of Law," but there's one that's called Central European University which has a department of Legal Studies. Mahkamov's response was: "Then that's the one (I meant)". Not knowing how one's alma mater is properly called is a bit strange, isn't it?

Mahkamov's other claims cast even more doubt on what he has said about his academic qualifications. In some of his interviews, Mahkamov has said that he graduated from the "Central European Legal University/the Central European University of Law" with a PhD! In 2005! Given that he was only 21 in 2005 and it had only been four years since his graduation from high school, this claim is just too unrealistic. Moreover, Mahkamov has also claimed that he has had time to serve in the army. In other interviews Mahkamov has said that he simply completed an internship at the "European University".

One more thing. Mahkamov has often claimed that he has a near native knowledge of English. However, in all of the films in which he has portrayed professional interpreters (and voiced them over), he has spoken in broken English and translated inaccurately. Nevertheless, it seems like he brags about his extraordinary English language skills all the time.

My question is will it be OK if I write about these issues in the article about Mahkamov? For example, something along the lines of:

"Otabek Mahkamov claims that in 2005 he graduated from the "Central European University of Law" (Markaziy Yevropa huquqshunoslik universiteti), ostensibly located in Budapest. However, there is no such university in Budapest. Mahkamov has also claimed that he graduated with a PhD from that university. However, that seems unlikely since at that time it had only been four years since Mahkamov’s graduation from high school.

Mahkamov has often claimed that he has a near native knowledge of English. However, in all of the films in which he has portrayed professional interpreters (and voiced them over ), he has spoken in broken English and translated inaccurately. Nevertheless, he takes much pride in his English-language skills. Mahkamov has also claimed that he knows French, Italian, and German very well."


 * References

What I wrote above is verifiable. I think it's notable too, since Mahkamov is a relatively well-known person in Uzbekistan and people should know that Mahkamov has made false claims about his academic qualifications (and language skills). However, writing about these issues might be considered original research, since nobody has written anything about them yet. Does this mean I shouldn't write anything about Mahkamov's contradictory claims in the Wikipedia entry about him? N ataev talk 09:03, 25 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Under no circumstances should you add material to any biography of a living person based on your own original research - which is exactly what you describe above. WP:BLP policy is absolutely clear and unambiguous about this. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:52, 25 April 2014 (UTC)


 * OK! N ataev  talk 15:16, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

David Jang
has been in the press a number of times, including recently. His BLP was somewhat of a hagiography and still needs work. He's been the subject of a lot of criticism, some more to do with an organisation he is involved with. Needs cleaning up, more pro and con stuff added without the puffery that is still in the article. I removed Christian Council of Korea as a source but I note some media use it. I wouldn't trust it for a BLP. Dougweller (talk) 13:46, 25 April 2014 (UTC)