Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive98

Andre Geim
Hello,

- There is a dispute going on in regards to Andre Geim's ethnicity. Most sources state that he is an ethnic German, and had a German Jewish grandmother.

Practically all members of the discussion agreed that that is how it should be phrased in his article's "Biography" section.

However, one editor - was canvassed by a blocked sock-puppeteer  into claiming that Andre Geim is 100% Jewish.

Russian.science (a vandal who has been blocked indefinitely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Russian.science) contacted Epeefleche using one of his sock-puppets and asked him to:

"I propose that you kindly edit the article as follow: (there is the same text in the Richard Feynman's page) Andre Geim is from a Jewish family. His family originated from Germany."

(From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Epeefleche)

The sock-puppet also contacted several other editors whom he/she thought might take his/her side: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Historian.X1

Currently user Epeefleche is not willing to discuss the issue, and is ignoring the majority of the sources. He also claims he was not canvassed, although he has never contributed to the article before he was contacted by the sock puppet.

Therefore, I would like to ask for assistance in resolving the issue, based on the sources provided, and in accordance with the Wikipedia editing style.

Regards, --Therexbanner (talk) 11:23, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You are seeing a contradiction where there is none: he can be both German and Jewish, there's no need for us to choose only one. Responded on talk page.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:31, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, I'm not saying he can't be. The sources state he is 1/4 Jewish which is great, and that's what the article should say. What some editor is trying to do is to say he is only Jewish ignoring his other ancestry. I don't think that is the right approach, I don't know.--Therexbanner (talk) 16:43, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Nomo -- that's a point I've made to Therex many times before. He continues to say -- as in his lead argument here, where he is trying to "prove" that Geim is not Jewish -- that "Most sources state that he is an ethnic German".  But while I have informed him at least three times that being Jewish and being German are not mutually exclusive (see German Jew), he keeps on making that "point" as his lead argument, as he did above.  It is somewhat confusing.


 * As mentioned more than once on the talk page in question, there are multiple refs that say without equivocation that he is Jewish. Full stop.  As our Arb Committee indicated just within this past year, in such circumstances it is not appropriate for an editor to edit war to delete the text (and reference), rather than reflect it.


 * Also, I was not canvassed, as I've told Therex previously more than once. But as I've edited many Jewish lists (feel free to check my entries, or ask for examples), I edited this one as well, and simply received a note of agreement subsequent to my indicating my opinion.


 * Furthermore, I've discussed the issue at length on the article talk page, contrary to Therex's untrue assertion. The Arb committee has just this past year addressed behavior similar to that of Therex here -- I suggest someone speak to him before he is sanctioned as others have been, as I seem not to be able to sufficiently express myself to him.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

User:Epeefleche has added Geim, who is Jewish, .. The subject has one jewish grandparent. This addition is clearly a BLP issue of undue genetic labeling, and no one would claim a person with one jewish grandparent fitted the description ..Geim, who is Jewish, Off2riorob (talk) 18:34, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * That's false, evidencing a lack of understanding. See the discussion at the Geim page.--Epeefleche (talk) 11:01, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

US politicians involved in the upcoming election
Just a note there is a discussion at ANI where BLP concerns have been raised. Please keep all discussion there! (I'm mentioning this here because I suspect quite a few here don't monitor ANI, I definitely didn't and having been there a bit recently, I'm thinking I'll go back to not monitoring.) Nil Einne (talk) 21:25, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * if there are BLP issues, I'd suggest protection until 3rd Novemeber. The other alternative is to nuke the article on the basis that candidates are not notable, and it will be after Nov 3 before DRV gets about to restoring them. Delete and indicate that you will restore on 3rd Nov, if requested.--Scott Mac 15:35, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't really looked in to the debate that much (I commented when it first appeared due to some confusion, came back a few hours later to find a massive debate) but I think the suggestion of BLP issue is that deleting or redirecting them in itself could create BLP problems, which I find an odd interpretation. (There is obviously the risk of stuff arising in these likely poorly monitored pages.) Nil Einne (talk) 06:24, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Lauren Hodges
I created a stub for the Rubicon (TV series) actress Lauren Hodges and I've been trying to flesh it out a bit, but there is a lack of decent reliable sources. The actress seems to pass WP:ENT because of her appearances in many TV shows and a couple of movies, but the lack of additional sourcing for verification has led to a dispute with a new editor. My attempts to improve and expand the article have been met with a series of removals of content and reversions. The instability of the article has forced me to withdraw from editing it for the time being, and another editor has wisely requested page protection. I would be interested in attracting new eyes to help resolve the dispute, and any advice about the quality of the sourcing and how it is being used. This version of the article contains the most content, and consequently it includes the content that is "under dispute". -- Scjessey (talk) 16:20, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Still hoping for a little help here, guys. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:51, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Juan Williams: Issue about acknowledged & apologized for verbal sexual harassment
I think it would be helpful to have some advice and thoughts on this BLP article. There is a difference of opinion about the relevance of including information (that is cited and sourced) about a well-documented matter whereby Juan Williams was disciplined for verbal sexual harassment over several years at his place of employment - the Washington Post. Williams publicly acknowledged and apologized for some of his behavior. The matter was widely reported at the time (early 90s) and the text in question is sourced and cited - including content drawn from the Washington Post's own report on the matter. One or two editors feel that it is a relatively unimportant matter in the scheme of things and prefer a minimal mention within the body of the article just as part of the section dealing with his chronological history. I and one or two others had felt that it should be in a separate small section fully sourced - which one of the first group of editors disagreed with. He enacted a compromise and placed it in the chronological section - but with a sub-heading. I thought this was a good compromise and I worked with it. However another editor has now deemed that the sexual harassment matter is being given undue weight and feels that it should be just referred to in the same way as all the subject's career information without any sub-heading. He feels that placing any focus on the documented fact that Williams was disciplined for multiple instances of verbal sexual harassment of women and acknowledged/apologized for it, is "puffing up" the matter. So the question is this:   Is documented sexual harassment (whether verbal or physical) that was a major news story at the time it happened something of import? Or is there some statute of limitations that permits it to be down-graded to a less important mention en passant within an article? Some guidance and constructive assistance would be appreciated at Juan Williams. Especially from women editors who may have a perspective on this that is not currently reflected in the article. See: Talk:Juan Williams. Thank you. Davidpatrick (talk) 16:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * For a point of reference, the charge of sexual harassment against Bill Clinton by Paula Jones consumes less space in his enormous WP article than what Davidpatrick had for the much smaller Juan Williams article. And the Clinton accusations obviously had far more new coverage than the Williams accusations, was a more serious charge, and it went through multiple courts, including the Supreme Court. Drrll (talk) 17:01, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * For a more apposite point of reference, the sexual harassment issue relating to Bill O'Reilly consumes 139 words and has its own sub-heading within the part of the article to which the topic pertains. The sexual harassment issue relating to Juan Williams as it has been pruned has been reduced to 109 words and has no sub-heading at all.  It is buried in the section.  I am prepared to accept that the version I thought was appropriate is too long by that frame of reference - and should be closer in length to that in the Bill O'Reilly article. And, by the same standard, should have the deleted sub-heading reinstated. However condensed, it should certainly ensure that both perspectives on the matter are presented, not just one side of the matter.  Davidpatrick (talk)

17:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Not an admin, but I have been following this from the sidelines since Williams was fired by NPR: I think that signaling out perceived bad behavior with any type of heading- when it could just as well be incorporated into the bio- is going to be contentious.  With BLP's, I prefer to see stuff like this incorporated into the overall bio, the exception being if the subject had publicly denied or contested the information, in which case BOTH sides of the issue could be included in a stand-alone section.  But this is just my preference, not a consensus that I am aware of. The Eskimo (talk) 18:24, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Those are good points. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with a neutrally-worded sub-heading. Drrll (talk) 18:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

American Council on Science and Health
Eyes open please for BLP issues on, there being something of a ruckus oing no within its power structure. Guy (Help!) 20:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Pankaj Mishra
'Controversies' section sourced to a weblog and two news articles. The news articles do not mention the subject of the article. May need page protection as I've removed the offending text countless times and IPs continue to add it. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 00:15, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * See Chittisinghpura massacre, and compare Mishra's persistent claims regarding purported "Hindu conspiracy" in the massacre with recent developments establishing Pakistani involvement. Mishra's polemical rants have largely been debunked as libel and fraud, and have profound geopolitical implications wrt the War on terror. Islamist and anti-American sympathizers have been regularly touting Mishra's bogus claims in Jihadist websites (and linking to his wp article as "proof" of his credentials). In light of these issues, his positions regarding the chittisinghpura massacre need to be stated in the article for balance, although, of course, sourcing should be kept consistent so as to not violate any policies (which is why I supported the removal of a paragraph in the article that was unsourced opinion).117.194.197.109 (talk) 00:30, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Blogs are never a reliable source for anything, let alone a BLP. See WP:SPS. Additionally, your use of news articles violates WP:SYNTH. The geopolitical issues that you bring up have zero relevance to Wikipedia policy. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 00:37, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "Blogs" are considered reliable if they quote a published source correctly (in this case, Mishra himself). In any case, Sepia Mutiny (the "blog" in question) is a fact-checked source that documents numerous political and social issues with the South Asian diaspora in the United States, is well established in the community, and has already been used as a reliable source multiple times on wikipedia when its claims suited the agenda of the pro-Islamist crowd currently editing the Mishra article. It's only when they report the fraudulent libel of one of the doyens of the Jihadist underground that they suddenly become a "non-RS". remarkable, that.117.194.197.109 (talk) 00:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you calling me pro-Islamist? &mdash; goethean &#2384; 01:29, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Joshua Gardner
- I nearly nominated this for deletion under WP:BLP1E but thought that before I do so, I would get feedback here. I found this article after reading the talk page of Duke of Cleveland - I had forgotten about this whole incident.

The basic argument for deletion is BLP1E, but it is also worth noting that there is a Wikipedia connection, which gives me additional concerns about a self-centered bias. If there had been no Wikipedia connection, would we have written an article?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:27, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * With three previous AfDs all resulting in keep, I believe that a further AfD would be a waste of time. Yes, I know that standards of notability and whatnot can change, but really the prospects here seem quite dim.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:28, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Reading those is an interesting tour through Wikipedia history. I notice that none of the previous nominations explicitly cited WP:BLP1E - I wonder when that particular acronym became popular, and the ideas around it fully absorbed.  At least some of the 'keep' votes are clearly for invalid reasons: to punish the guy for misusing Wikipedia or to warn other would-be frauds.  Those would be responded to effectively today, and discounted in the closing.  Additionally, the transient nature of the event becomes ever more clear with the passage of time.  The guy is still in jail, contrary to what the article suggests, which helps show how poorly maintained such obscure articles may be.  Until he gets out of jail, which is now slated for August of next year, the BLP issues are perhaps minimal.  But at that time, this guy is going to get out of jail, a convicted felon at age 28, and very possibly intent on setting his life straight.  At that point, I think there will be grave and serious reasons to consider whether this article might be causing harm.  (Or to be fair to those whose views differ radically from mine, to consider as well whether this article might at that point be a further public service to warn people away from him.  I don't think that's true, but it is debatable by reasonable people.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:29, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem with articles like this is that they are "interesting" - so we tend to drop any notions of objective notability and go for human interest. It's two and a half years since the last AfD, which had such low interest it is hard to justify it as "settled consensus", so I'd say it is worth another pop with a well-written nomination. Jimbo, IMO you should nominate this. We might as well have this discussion in a formal debate on AfD.--Scott Mac 09:41, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It was around May 2007 that the idea was being expressed by multiple people. The question to ask here is whether this is information about the person's life and works or information about the school. It seems to me that a lot of this is about activities that occurred at the school and the detective work done by the schoolchildren.  There's one of those badly named "Controversies" sections ("Controversies" and "Criticism" are such unimaginative section titles.) in Stillwater Area High School where we could merge, and that doesn't require AFD or administrator tools.  Perhaps future children at the same school reading about their school on Wikipedia in years to come will see how resourceful their forebears were, and be inspired. &#9786; Uncle G (talk) 13:24, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I like the merge option. Let's wait a bit longer to get more opinions on this.  (In my view, the article on the high school is unconvincing regarding notability.  But that's a question for a different day.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:25, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of merging to Duke of Cleveland, as that is where the encyclopedicity is really. It can be nominated at the pages to be merged page, where precious few people will see it. Ultimately AfD and Merge should be merged...but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon...Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:48, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I think it has absolutely nothing to do with the Duke of Cleveland, though. It's a name he picked more or less randomly, I am sure, and in any event, I doubt very much whether the rather serious folk who edit the history of the Peerages articles will be pleased for one second to see this kind of non-notable cruft turn up.  This will end up being a back-door deletion if we go that route, which I'm not opposed to since I think it should be speedied under CSD G13 "Give me a break".  (Haha, yes I just made that one up!)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:40, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

BLP1E should never lead to a deletion but either to a renaming/refocusing of the article on the event or at worst to an information-keeping merge. We don't delete something that has 10 reliable sources. -- Cycl o  pia  talk  11:47, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * In this case neither the person nor the event has any lasting importance. Wolfview (talk) 06:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree with Cyclopedia. BLP1E should often lead to a renaming/refocusing, but should also often lead to deletion.  Wolfview is right: neither the person nor the event has any lasting importance here.  This is like any number of cute human interest "true crime" stories that make the rounds globally.  It got press coverage because it's a cute story about high school kids tracking down someone who pretended to be nobility, not because it is actually newsworthy or important.  Merely counting the number of sources (which all say about the same thing, which is next to nothing) is not a valid means of editorial decision making.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Following up to myself to emphasize this point, I went to google news and typed 'weird news' and picked the first thing I found, and then did another search for that. I quickly found the case of "hiccup girl" Jennifer Mees with 652 sources, many of them from very high quality newspapers.  But there is nothing encyclopedic about her case at all.  She had hiccups for 5 days.  Now she's accused of murder.  She's mentioned in the Wikipedia entry for Hiccup for the original incident, including the murder incident.  I think that (a) there is no way to have an encyclopedia article and that a BLP1E should result in deletion, not an article about the incident and (b) the incident (particularly the murder) should not be in the entry on Hiccup since someone having hiccups for 5 days is hardly noteworthy outside of newspaper human interest fluff.  (Or, anyway, if it is to be included there, there needs to be some explanation of why it is notable, for example a medical authority saying it was the most unusual case in history or something like that.  As I understand it - but Wikipedia doesn't currently tell me - cases of intractable hiccuping are far from unknown in the medical literature.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * At this point, per our guidelines and polices, she's easily notable. BLP1E doesn't apply (now two events), and WP:N is trivially met (massive sources).  We can argue if that means our policies and guidelines are out of wack or if she should have an article of course.  Hobit (talk) 02:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete If we had articles about everyone who lied in order to have sex with someone that would be... at least 100 times... the number of artices we have now. -Wolfview (talk) 15:33, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Insane Clown Posse
User:Dylan Flaherty is trying to add a bit about the albums of the band Insane Clown Posse being an evangelized metaphor for Christianity, even though multiple sources, and the members of the band itself explicitly state that their lyrics are not overtly religious, and that they are not very religious themselves.

Dylan is basing his edits on a recent article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/oct/09/insane-clown-posse-christians-god

Statements made by the author of the article are contradicted by member Violent J on his Twitter account: http://twitter.com/bigviolentj/status/27571693759

The themes of the band's lyrics are discussed here: Dark Carnival (Insane Clown Posse), which is sourced to the band's biography, multiple interviews with the band, and the band's website. The only source to explicitly mention an interpretation of Christian content within the band's work is the Guardian article, which is contradicted by the writers of the lyrics quoted out of context.

The BLP issue here is that while the material here has a source, it is contentious, and it relates to the religious views of a living person who has directly contradicted the claims made by Dylan.

Biographies_of_living_persons —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wisdomtenacityfocus (talk • contribs) 04:00, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a content dispute to me. If RS'es differ on a matter, list all the RS viewpoints and let the reader come to their own conclusion. Jclemens (talk) 05:42, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * At this time, any mention of the Guardian article has been expunged. I have tried to discuss this with the ICP fans, and have changed the wording to be more clear and accurate, but there has been no sign of cooperation. I am certainly willing to include any denials by the band, but the claim itself is entirely notable. The real BLP issue is that this reliably-sourced statement is being censored. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 10:20, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Such disputed weakly claimed content is better removed. If the simple claims are denied by the band and you have a single op ed guardian article, there is no excuse to keep it. Off2riorob (talk) 20:10, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * As explained on the article discussion page, none of what you said has any basis in reality. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 00:48, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The individuals whom the claims are being made about have directly contradicted the claims. How is Jonson a better authority on the religion of another person than the person himself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wisdomtenacityfocus (talk • contribs) 02:17, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I fully support including their denial alongside the journalist's conclusions, which come directly from what they freely admitted in an interview. I am not trying to suppress anything or force my version of the facts onto Wikipedia. I ask that you do the same, even though you are a fan. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 04:15, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Best left out per the contradictory info, BLP, and WP:UNDUE. --Ronz (talk) 02:56, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This is one of those times where we need to teach the controversy. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 04:15, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That's an extremely poor choice of words. I hope they were meant to be ironic. Regardless, NPOV and UNDUE applies, especially in the light of such irony. --Ronz (talk) 15:45, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * As a Christian who rejects Creationism, I am entirely aware of the irony. To be quite frank, this is the most interesting thing that has happened to ICP in years. It's extremely notable, and since it's both well-sourced (their own words!) and given no more than a sentence, I cannot agree with your conclusion. But let's take this discussion back where it belongs, please. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 17:58, 19 October 2010 (UTC)


 * In this comment another contributor seems to sum up much of the positions of those who oppose inclusion of this material, stating: "The individuals whom the claims are being made about have directly contradicted the claims. How is Jonson a better authority on the religion of another person than the person himself?" It seems to me that this position seriously lapses from both WP:VER and WP:NPOV. It is not our job to pick sides.  It is not our job to decide who is a more credible authority.  Compliance with the policy on writing from the neutral point of view requires us to present both sides.  Compliance with the policy on verifiability requires us to refrain from picking one position as the "truth". There are lots of topics I contribute to where all the WP:RS have taken positions at odds with my own personal point of view.  I don't have a choice.  I can't insert my personal position.  I shouldn't choose to leave out the positions of all those WP:RS, no matter how convinced I am they are mistaken.  And I shouldn't try to remove neutrally written, properly referenced, material.  Our articles should neutrally present the positions of all relevant WP:RS. Penultimately, I will remind our correspondent that subjects are sometimes not reliable sources of information about themselves.  They lie, or they have misconceptions about themselves. I agree with JClemons in this.  Geo Swan (talk) 04:29, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's still a BLP problem, "Material about living persons must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality, and avoiding original research." It's a single reference contradicted by multiple others. --Ronz (talk) 16:30, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, Geo. I think the consensus on the talk page is coming around to what to say as opposed to whether to say anything about this. I'm hoping we can hash out the details and come up with something that follows Wikipedia policy. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 04:32, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The user in question has made very little attempts to contribute to the discussion on the talk page, and has continuously made personal attacks. He has admitted to a conflict of interest in this matter, and has a history of edit wars. The matter of the article itself is that the author states his opinion that the group is Christian, though not once do the members say so themselves. Numerous others articles, both by the group themselves and independent sources dispute this claim. I do believe that this article should be mentioned in the "Lyrics and music" section, and have made two suggestions: "The Guardian contributor Jon Ronson suggests that the group's lyrics contain messages of evangelicalist Christianity. " or "The Guardian contributor Jon Ronson claims that the group's lyrics contain evangelicalist messages. ." Both have been shot down by Dylan Flaherty, who has also just continued to vandalize the Insane Clown Posse page by ignoring all discussions and writing what he pleases.Juggalobrink (talk) 13:44, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, just keep it out completely, a single strongly disputed opinionated editorial by someone that is not regarded as an authority on the band at all. Off2riorob (talk) 13:56, 21 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Disclaimer: I've come here by way of . I don't necessarily support removing it entirely, but : The Dark Carnival has been revealed as a metaphor for God, so the lessons are about repenting so as to avoid eternal damnation. If this is mentioned it should make clear which source this view comes from, and should make clear that this is not a widely-held view. ICP aren't reliable sources for anything other than their views, but thus far Jon Ronson's claims aren't held—so far as I can see—by many more sources than the Guardian (my request to Dylan Flaherty for sources met with only this (indirectly: I had to go through the talkpage with a fine-tooth-comb to find it)). Either of Juggalobrink's seem more than satisfactory to me: either The Guardian contributor Jon Ronson suggests that the group's lyrics contain messages of evangelicalist Christianity. or The Guardian contributor Jon Ronson claims that the group's lyrics contain evangelicalist messages.. TFOWR 10:14, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I'd just like to point out that the discussion here is hopelessly out of touch. Please see the talk page to get a more honest idea of what's going on, including additional references and an actual consensus for neutral changes. Thank you. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 02:03, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

A new article has surface from Christianity Today which questions Ronson's claim. The article is found here and is currently mentioned in the Spirituality section of the Insane Clown Posse article. There has been a dispute as to whether to add the information or not. So a consensus is needed to avoid any more edit wars. I am in favor of adding the article. (unsigned by Juggalobrink 29 October)

For those who have not been following this closely, let me recap. The Guardian article from early October made the questionable assertion that ICP were "evangelical Christians." That article sparked writeups in other RS-class venues, including the Washington Post. The derivative articles generally reported that "the ICP are evangelical Christians", crediting the Guardian. The newer Christianity Today article calls shenanigans on these me-too sources and points out flaws with the Guardian article, such as the fact that ICP has never actually used the words "Christian" or "evangelical."

There was originally some reluctance on the part of multiple Wikipedia editors to cite the Guardian article because of its questionable validity. However, it has become so well known and has sparked so many other articles in response that I think it's fair to say that there is now general agreement that it must be covered. Currently, the Guardian article is summarized and contrasted with tweets from one ICP member that appear to reject its thesis rather explicitly. The question now is whether it is relevant and necessary to cite and quote the Christianity Today article too. Like Juggalobrink above, I support adding it. The ICP's own denials are inherently suspect because the ICP are the subjects of the whole firestorm. The Christianity Today article points out flaws in the Guardian article from the perspective of an uninvolved (though not necessarily impartial) observer, so it is relevant as independent critique. NillaGoon (talk) 06:59, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Nilla about the derivative reporting, and I would welcome using the Christianity Today article by paraphrase so that we can mention this. However, that same article makes factual errors, which Nilla unfortunately repeats here, and we cannot include those as-is.
 * In specific, as I explained in some detail on the talk page, with quotes, at least one of the duo acknowledges being once-secretly Christian and there is no doubt that they included religious messages in their songs, which counts as evangelism of Christian themes without making them Evangelical Christians, as such. The error in the me-too articles is that they missed this distinction. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 12:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Mark Moring
I believe that this edit violates BLP.

The text it reinserted comes from Mark Moring, who writes for Christianity Today, which is an Evangelical Christian periodical founded by Billy Graham to counter the mainline Protestant paper, The Christian Century. As such, the periodical has a vested interest in protecting the reputation of Evangelicals.

The article is an opinion piece that is labeled as a blog entry; blogs are not RS. It is subtitled "Why is the media so quick to label these clowns as 'evangelical Christians'?", and is primarily written with the intent of disassociating the ICP from Evanglicals such as himself.

As I freely admitted earlier, part of what he writes is factually true: some of the journalists who wrote articles in reaction to the Jon Ronson one in the Guardian have misinterpreted the phrase "evangelical Christian" in such a way as to blur the distinction between being a Christian who evangelizes and being an Evangelical. I agree that this should be stated in the article, if we can reliably source it.

Unfortunately, not only is Moring not a reliable source due to the bias and blog issues, but he is guilty of very sloppy journalism that undercuts his credibility. I can't say whether it's dishonesty or incompetence, but he pretends not to have read the part of the Guardian article where Joseph Bruce admits to having been secretly Christian.

I am going to cross-post this now to WP:BLPN, but I'd really prefer it if the conversation could continue here.

P.S. Full disclosure: the person who twice reverted the article to reinsert the dubious lines left edit comments claiming I was a vandal. This bit of uncivil dishonesty was corrected elsewhere and should not factor into our discussion about the merits of the lines themselves. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 00:20, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * But Dylan, you were all about "teaching the controversy" above when the disputed article conformed to your perspective. :-)


 * Regarding "blogs are not RS", please see WP:NEWSBLOG: "Newspaper and magazine blogs...are acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control...Where a news organization publishes an opinion piece, the writer should be attributed (e.g. 'Jane Smith has suggested...')." Moring is a senior associate editor of Christianity Today, and he posted on the publication's official blog. NillaGoon (talk) 05:29, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Nilla, the reason that a blog under editorial control is acceptable is that it's supposed to avoid the sort of mistakes that this article has. Let's keep the parts that are reliable and dump the rest. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 20:42, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Michelle Wie

 * - is adding the nickname "Bubbles" to the infobox sourced to  this; the nickname is contained in the readers' posts not the text itself. I have reverted twice as WP:BLP states that "posts left by readers are never acceptable as sources", user has undone my revert. January talk 19:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No, as you say, that is not a WP:RS. I removed it again and left the user a note informing him the cite is not WP:RS and a link to this discussion. Off2riorob (talk) 19:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Martin McGartland
user:CEDAP needs help at. Thanks. Guy (Help!) 21:46, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I am speaking as someone who has reverted his attempt to rewrite the lead. Most of his edit is point-of-view and grammatically inaccurate - "one of their most trusted agents", "an intrinsical member of the IRA active service unit", "He is credited by the British Intelligence", "chronicling his life during these troubled times". Any changes to the article can happily be discussed on the article's talk page. O Fenian (talk) 21:59, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * What help do they need? Mo ainm  ~Talk  22:32, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Sean Parker


Someone has added grafitti to the article about Sean Parker. 68.63.2.152 (talk) 23:46, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Accusation against a living journalist working for major media – untrue story by unreliable journalist
In the comment given here "untrue story by unreliable journalist, inappropriate for the lead, and comic hilarity isn't justification for an unexplained misinterpretation of one email". This statement, connected directly to the article used as a reference, should probably be removed by an administrator (only asking for removal of the statement given in the Comments field - unhappily I've not admin rights here, so I can not do it). Nsaa (talk) 20:35, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:SOURCES requires us to consider the reputation of the source, including the author, for fact checking and accuracy. Jonathan Leake is well known as a polemicist attacking climatic scientists, and in one example his story was the subject of an official complaint to the Press Complaints Commission by a leading scientist, following which Leake's publisher retracted the story.(copy of retraction) As reported in a blog reporting expert opinion, other errors have been noted, and objections raised. Regarding the specific story cited, the claim that "scientists at the University of East Anglia (UEA) admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based" is blatant nonsense – as official inquiries have found, the UEA does not hold raw temperature data, that is archived by other organisations which allow the UEA use of the data. In at least some cases, the archiving organisations do not allow the UEA to store or pass on the data. . . dave souza, talk 22:07, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * None off the sources support your claim "untrue story by unreliable journalist" and I still Think this unsourced edit comment should be removed per WP:BLP (note, I'm only asking for removal of The comment, not The edit in itself. Nsaa (talk) 17:23, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Joan McAlpine
That's great, very impressed with the speed of wiki editor's intervention —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bruichlady (talk • contribs) 15:22, 31 October 2010 (UTC)



I am not used to wiki and have registered soley to correct the defamatory remarks on this entry. Someone is posting comments about this person claiming the Daily Mail is a source. These comments are completely defamatory and were not reported in The Daily Mail at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bruichlady (talk • contribs)
 * Yup, you are correct. The vandalism was removed by another editor in under a minute. If this issue arise again, feel free to report it here so someone can take care of it, but most of the time vandalism is gone within a few minutes. Netalarm talk 23:07, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Chris_Hutchings


The page on Chris Hutchings is being vandalised by fans of Walsall Football Club who are concerned at his lack of competence. I can't edit the page because I'm new to Wikipedia and if I revert then I will undo the stats box. Can an experienced editor take a look at this please (and, by the way, the Saddlers' message board at which vandalism to this page is being discussed also mentions vandalism to the Walsall_F.C. page). Filmfanman (talk) 06:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the note, ill have a little look. Off2riorob (talk) 12:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

jehmu greene: Please delete this bio


This wiki is clearly self-promotional, makes many spurious claims and is not a justified inclusion.


 * (above unsigned comment was by IP 165.124.162.246)


 * You could attempt to have it removed using one of the methods listed in Wikipedia's Deletion Policy. However, it seems that the person who is the subject of the article in question has received a great deal of coverage over a long period of time, so it may well be that the article requires a substantial re-write and much better sourcing, rather than deletion, unless you can find another criterion under which to suggest its deletion. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 08:23, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It is basically uncited, needs something...http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jehmu-greene is about all I found. Off2riorob (talk) 13:20, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Tommy Sheridan


Can other editors weigh in on this article, which I found via the Joan McAlpine link above? The Sheridan article needs lots of work, which I currently don't have time for, but I am also very concerned by the other two court case articles, one of which is largely unsourced and contains salacious claims about living people; the second, a perjury court case, is ongoing. These seem classic cases of WP:NOTNEWS and WP:COATRACK for negative information about a living person. What do others think? Maybe they should be merged to a cleaned-up Sheridan article. Slp1 (talk) 14:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Feel free to remove any unsourced material, particularly if it is "salacious".--Scott Mac 15:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Both these court cases have been very high-profile, and are surely notable. The first case took place 4 years ago, I think the article is stable. Both article seem accurate and well-sourced, I am not aware that they contain anything which has not received significant (and in many cases high-profile) coverage in the Scottish media alreday, if there are any specific problems please raise them on the relevant talk page. Merging them with the main article on Tommy Sheridan would not solve anything, and could just make the article over-long. Given the controversy surrounding him, we would still have to say quite a bit about these cases and ensure it followed NPOV, RS, no salaciousness. We cannot avoid having articles on people who have been the subject of controversial high-profile allegations about their personal lives e.g. Bill Clinton. As for the current trial, the judge explicitly warns the jury at the end of the day not to do any private research of their own, for example on the internet. PatGallacher (talk) 15:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, I agree. These trials are not just passing new stories, they are headline news in Scotland over a long period, and are important for understanding the demise of an entire political movement and not just one political career. Frankly, if we sere deleting nonnotable court cases, I wouldn't start here. Pat is doing a good job, although lets keep the referencing solid, and the lurid stuff down to the minimum. I mean, group sex, swingers, liars and politics (allegedly)? What's not to be notable? --Scott Mac 15:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I have added the BLP flag to the talk page of both articles. See Lewinsky scandal as the sort of issue where, although we might need to be careful what we say, we can hardly avoid saying something. PatGallacher (talk) 15:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * That's fine; I really don't see the issue so much about notability as about BLP and V. There are large chunks these articles with very serious claims, made in great detail, and quotations, that are entirely unsourced, or linked to citations that go nowhere. It's good that Pat is taking things seriously, and so hopeful the problems can be sorted out soon. Scott Mac's advice is very good.  If it can't be done soon, however, I suggest we consider a major prune and restore appropriate detail as time is available for proper sourcing. --Slp1 (talk) 18:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Link rot (see WP:LINKROT) may indeed be a problem with these articles and the main article on Tommy Sheridan, but that's a problem with a lot other articles. These articles do include serious claims, but they have been widely reported in reliable sources. A few weeks ago I did remove some links from the article on the 1st case which appear to have been taken down for legal reasons. I see a "sub judice" flag has been added to the talk page on the 2nd case. PatGallacher (talk) 19:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Rory Albanese


In the article, this appears:


 * At a Jon Stewart appearance at Barnes & Noble, a video shows Albanese in a very heated verbal assault of Matt Meyer-a member of We Are Change NY. Later, after a barrage of unkind words Albanese physically assaulted Matt Meyer by punching him near the edge of his left jawbone-leaving quite the mark. [5] He was later arrested when police reviewed the videographic evidence. Subsequently, the assault charge led to the posting by Meyer on Youtube on October 28, 2010, a month after the attack.[6]

Source 5 has a link to the meetup group of which Meyer is a part, and Source 6 has a link to a YouTube video, which claims to show Albanese punching Meyer. A search on Google (including Google News) seems to have only sources that would be sympathetic to Meyer's views on 9/11 mention the incident. To me, the video is not very clear what is going on. The video seems to be divided into two sections: One inside a store, where a man comes in and starts shouting (though what he is saying is unclear on the video) and Jon Stewart says to hear him out. Then in the second section, the video shows two men egging each other on until one of them finally throws a punch. Does anyone have any reliable sources? --Cornince (talk) 14:43, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree that these are not reliable sources for this information, and have removed the content pending proper sourcing, per BLP. --Slp1 (talk) 14:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Jennifer Lerner


I removed some coatracky stuff that was recently added to the article by newly created account. See my note on the talk page. It has been restored by that editor. Opinions on this, please. --TS 22:36, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Welcomed users that had edited the page. Removed the material that violates WP:UNDUE WEIGHT in a WP:BLP. Semi-protected the page. Posted a warning to talk page of user . -- Cirt (talk) 22:41, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * did it again. User blocked for two days. -- Cirt (talk) 10:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * And he did it yet again October 27, immediately after getting off being blocked. betsythedevine (talk) 02:15, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * And again today, same edit ; could some admin please reblock? betsythedevine (talk) 16:21, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Blocked indef. -- Cirt (talk) 16:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Lynndie England
Is it just me, or is placing three images of Abu Ghraib abuse on this page an unnecessary insult? I'm not sure that any pictures of her is not a violation of her personality rights; thoughts? Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I see no evidence that any use of these pictures in an article about the individual themself could possibly be violation of personality rights. What would lead you to believe this, exactly? Hipocrite (talk) 20:00, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I should have said privacy rights. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * We are not invading the privacy of someone whose picture was featured in articles at Marie Claire, the BBC, the Army Times.... Hipocrite (talk) 23:59, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree, putting three pictures of Abu Ghraib abuse stretches the boundaries of good taste. While opinions differ on how work-safe Wikipedia should be, there's no need to flagrantly offend people's sensibilities. This is not a BLP issue, however - England's ties to the scandal are very well known. Best resolved at the relevant talk page. Ray  Talk 14:58, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Rand Paul et al.
Second the question, as it is my understanding based on work with WP:USPE that this is the general consensus of that workgroup. When an article exists on an individual separately notable campaign, as opposed to on an election or candidate, that is the most preferred, with the election being the backup. JJB 16:33, 29 October 2010 (UTC) (ec)I agree. And so does Jimbo when asked about "political silly season." BLPs are not to be used as campaign vehicles for or against any candidate. Collect (talk) 16:35, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * and - There has been some contentious editing, close to edit warring, on some Senate candidate BLPs in recent days, especially this one.  I believe that there is a consensus to move all the issues and controversies, which are not directly related to one or another candidate, to some place in the campaign article, in a general election sub-section, rather than their biographies. Mistakes, past errors of the candidates, and the like, directly related to the person, should remain on their biographical articles.  Am I correct? Bearian (talk) 16:26, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * and has a similar situation. Bearian (talk) 16:30, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I believe neutrality means Wikipedians should not be trying to tie the BLPs concerning politicians too closely to their respective campaigns. But having said that if an opposing politician or campaign is tying the article subject to something controversial associated with his or her campaign, rigorous deletion of the material should be done judiciously since such deletion would be clearly opposed by the opposing campaign. It's not just some drive-by Wiki vandal that wants it in. If a campaign worker did something outrageous and the politician distanced himself or herself from the campaign worker, it should presumptively not be included in the politician's article. But if the politician has not distanced himself or herself and it is not just a few pundits that are making an issue out of it but the opposing campaign as well, I believe it should presumptively go in. An outrageous action by an employee might go into the BLP of a CEO, for example, if it became an issue for that CEO's management reputation. The idea being to minimize Wikipedia's discretion such that Wikipedia doesn't end up the only entity trying to distance a politician from his or her campaign. Follow the secondary sources: there should be a secondary source (usually the politician him or herself) that holds the POV that the material is not directly related to the politician if Wikipedia is going to consider that POV the NPOV.Brian Dell (talk) 20:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality is a fine thing. Unfortunately, one set of Rand Paul supporters justifies their repeated deletion of the "stomping" incident from Rand Paul with a claim that it belongs in the less widely-read campaign article. When the "stomping" is moved to the campaign article, a different Rand Paul supporter has now deleted it twice. This is a newsworthy event generating press stories on a daily basis. betsythedevine (talk) 14:13, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have blocked the vandal for edit warring (this is his third block so I made it for three months), and semi-protected the page for three days. Bearian (talk) 16:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Tareq Salahi


There are several issues with this article. Focusing on one paragraph, I started some edits due to the issues below. Another editor reasonably disagreed with my edits, but instead of improving reverted them. The problem is all the original problems persist. I am sticking to BRD but the issues are potentially libellous and need attention, so I'm asking for more editors to take a look. The nuances center around the Washington Post article source stating allegations from a court filing by one party against another, and citing them as such, but these allegations have ended up in the BLP as statements of fact. Plus they are word for word taken from the source (except for the explanation "as alleged in legal filings").

Issues in current second paragraph of “Oasis Winery” section:

Issue 1: Word for word plagiarism. WaPo: In the following years, he started calling "himself 'president' of the Company and 'owner' of the winery, although he never held more than a 5 % minority interest," WikiP: In the following years, Tareq started calling "himself 'president' of the Company and 'owner' of the winery, although he never held more than a 5% minority interest.

Issue 2: Reporting of points as fact when in WaPo they are clearly stated not as facts, but statements from a court filing. In a stunning feat, the wiki article manages to plagiarize without even saying the same thing, by dropping “According to his parents’ lawsuit” from the end of the above quote in issue 1.

Issue 3. Near word for word plagiarism. WaPo: Tareq also began operating a new business out of the vineyard, Oasis Enterprises, which included a limo operation, wine country tours and an events-and-catering business. Around 1999, according to his parents' lawsuit, he "diverted" a "substantial amount" of the vineyard's wine to Oasis Enterprises and had not paid the vineyard back. WikiP: Tareq also began operating a new business out of the vineyard, Oasis Enterprises, which was developed to raise ancillary income as a venue for polo events and other functions such as weddings. Oasis Enterprises included a limo operation, wine country tours, and an events-and-catering business. Around 1999 Tareq "diverted" a "substantial amount" of the vineyard's wine to Oasis Enterprises and had not paid the vineyard back

Issue 4: Reporting of points as fact when in WaPo they are clearly stated not as facts, but statements from a court filing. The difference in #3 is that WikiP does not use “according to his parents’ lawsuit” 96.247.118.213 (talk) 17:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * This discussion so far has gone against the IP though more eyes are needed. I haven't ignored the comments at all, I've tried to explain them.  The use of the Washington Post to make the comments made are wrong to make and another source is required to make claims that Tariq Salahi lied about things. It is not up to me to find the sources, it's up to the editor who states them.  On the talk page so far, my comments are agreed to.  Rob comments that this is here but if I remember correctly he doesn't give an opinion on things.  Also, I am concerned with sock puppetry.  This IP is a Verizon account which is what an editor who is stalking me uses.  I think that from the comments mado so far, that the duck test shows I may not be wrong.  I don't have enough to take to SPI or I would but this too needs sorting.  Thanks for listening.  I would have commented earlier but the IP didn't tell me that this was here even though the IP came to my talk page about this very same problem .  Something is wrong here, I hope it's me but well... -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  19:16, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Edits from this ISP follow exactly the pattern of the banned sock puppets of SRQ. The above editor is correct. Need more eyes here. DocOfSoc (talk) 19:47, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

George S. Livanos
There is no Countess Kasa-Hunyady, that's a scam, but don't know what is true and what is fake in the article.It needs the attention of an expert.

Replace this with a brief explanation of the situation. Csesznekgirl (talk) 18:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I wonder if this article could be a candidate for deletion. It's rare that we do that for billionaires, but if Mr. Livanos has been as private as the article suggests, to the point where there's even confusion over his name, then it might be best to respect his privacy and delete the article. Ray  Talk 14:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Rick Scott
Material relating to Columbia/HCA is covered at length in the BLP. An IP insists, however, on inserting a section in the lede duplicating material in the section. and asserting that it is "censorship" to not have extensive coverage in the lede as well as in the article. I consider it a matter of simple common sense that WP articles are not campaign literature for or against anyone, and inserting the duplicate material is thus improper in any article. Will foolks kindly weigh in? Collect (talk) 10:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I had a look. Someone else is now deleting the entirety of the discussion about the Columbia/HCA issues later in the article. I have reverted this, but the article might benefit from some sort of protection. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 10:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * BTW, all I had done was revert to the exact same status you reverted to :). The only "edit war" was from the IP. Collect (talk) 11:29, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't really see a problem with the IP's edits. Your characterization is incomplete: he/she is also adding detail to a later section, and the material added to the lead is a concise summary of a later section, not a duplication.  So even in regard to the lead I don't see anything inappropriate.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Margaret Thatcher
A user has been insisting on have a NPOV template on the top of this article for the last two years, adding the template are his only edits to the article for the last two years. After questioning he has stated the whole article needs re written for the template to be removed. He is imo setting standards on the article that are greater than we apply to our articles in general. The article was featured and is now only a good article and imo easily meets that standard. I would like to resolve the template but his demands of a rewrite are extreme. His insistence is a labeling of a more or less decent article as biased. I would like to get a few users comments about the article in an attempt to resolve the disputed template. No article should be unduly labeled for such a length of time and that is not what the templates are for. Recent discussion about the template is on the talkpage here. Do users consider the article to be so poor and biased to benefit from the template ( if it is please specify the most offending content so it can be improved) and is it so biased as to require a complete re write. Off2riorob (talk) 13:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The complaint is that the article reads like a hagiography, and after a superficial reading I agree with that. It reads as if it was based on something written by her PR team. All her achievements and honours seem to be made explicit, while you must read between the lines to get an idea of how controversial she was as prime minister.Hans Adler 15:27, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Are there specific sections that you see as being very poor in this respect? Off2riorob (talk) 15:29, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Michael Welner Page


There have been several edits made to the wiki page “Michael Welner”. Activity on the page has risen in tandem with Michael Welner’s role in the Khadr trial, Beyond the overt acts of vandalism in which one Khadr advocate went as far as to call Dr. Welner an “an awfull jackass”; there have been edits to the page that reflect more diplomatic advocacy – absent any real contribution to the page. I hope to clear it up with the posting below. What’s going on is people who are real advocates are attempting to sabotage the page and they will continue to do so. In order to prevent the page from becoming a forum for Khadr advocates to spout their disapproval and vicious libel, I respectfully ask that you restrict the page from outside edits beyond those of your editorial staff. The paragraphs below, which I have included on the page, updates the page objectively and informatively.Stewaj7 (talk) 16:18, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. Your edits to that page today amount to this.  What exactly is the problem that you are unable to resolve through discussion at that article's talk page? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:23, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

JORDAN HALSMAN
I would like to report abuse to the attached site ref. Jordan Halsman. This has been going on since yesterday with the person below changing all the correct details to absolute nonsense. Can you please block this person from any further use.

I will edit to correct information (cur | prev) 17:24, 1 November 2010 Steven1875 (talk | contribs) (2,670 bytes) (undo)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.168.117.142 (talk)
 * Will likely need to be semi-protected. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:10, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

How do you do this ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.219.229.44 (talk) 22:40, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Dick Wagner, American Rock Musician
The initial paragraph about Dick Wagner states his date of birth as being born December 14, 1943, in Oelwein, Iowa. The year is incorrect. It should be 1942.

I am Dick Wagner's official archivist and webmaster for wagnermusic.com. He has asked me to get this corrected.

Thank you, Don Richard Drakmar (talk) 05:00, 29 October 2010 (UTC) Webmaster & Archivist for Dick Wagner www.wagnermusic.com designer@wagnermusic.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drakmar (talk • contribs) 04:59, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The best thing to do then is to add that date to his official web site, http://www.wagnermusic.com/biography.htm for example, that would be a Verifiable source. --GRuban (talk) 15:13, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Chai Ling
There is much debate on Chai Ling’s Wikipedia talk page, including claims that are repeatedly appearing on the main article page, which are not in line with Wikipedia’s policy on biographies of living persons. The issues raised vary from criticism of her role in Tiananmen to inappropriate attacks on her personal life.

Most of the negative references tie back to the website: http://www.tsquare.tv, which one could argue should not be used as a reference source as it is a website run by those involved in the conflict with Chai Ling and the articles referenced either are an obvious attempt at character assassination or they violate copyright laws (http://www.tsquare.tv/film/harvard.html) Furthermore, some of the users posting negative materials are posting from China and are under active investigation by Wikipedia. It is therefore likely that they are attempts by the Chinese government to defame people who are friends with the recent Nobel Prize winner, Liu Xiaobo.

Wikipedia is an open forum for discussion and such comments are likely to continue to be posted until there is a significant cultural shift in China. However, readers should be urged to exercise their judgement when reading biased statements and to be understanding when some material is removed because of its open defamation of character. Chai Ling has committed her life to improving conditions in China, and is an accomplished business woman, as evidenced by her career history. It would not be just to leave false accusations and misquotations in such a public forum.

Please could Wikipedia act within its policy and remit, in order to ensure that repeated offenders are appropriately restricted from placing slander on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aurora07 (talk • contribs) 00:38, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * This is this users first post....interesting!

KoshVorlon Naluboutes ''AeriaGloris 18:15, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * - Article is a bit poor, I made a few edits in an attempt to improve it and as such it is added to my watchlist. Off2riorob (talk) 19:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Shahrzad Mir-Gholikhan
That "Fair and Balanced"(tm) "source" Press TV has brought up the case of Shahrzad Mir-Gholikhan.

Ref: http://payvand.com/news/09/mar/1120.html

Is she notable yet? Hcobb (talk) 03:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * - This is not really the location to ask if someone is notable. You can ask at Notability/Noticeboard or read WP:BIO AND WP:GNG - Off2riorob (talk) 15:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

List page about BLPs at AFD
Please see Articles for deletion/Honorary Guides of the Raëlian Movement. Thank you for your time, -- Cirt (talk) 04:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Cirt. This page does concern me as it appears that many haven't accepted this nomination and that labelling them as honorary guides of a UFO movement is a BLP violation, we can't ascribe a religious belief to BLPs on the basis of them being nominated as guides by that belief.Dougweller (talk) 08:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Eh, anyone can honor anyone else with anything they want, and the honoree can accept or reject it. I only think it's a BLP problem if we don't make the unidirectional nature of the relationship clear. Jclemens (talk) 18:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

New Life Fellowship Association
This page is being repeatedly edited with malicious and false information about me (Victor Nazareth) and my family members: Pastor S Joseph (father-in-law), Ian Hendricks (brother-in-law), Naomi J Hendricks (sister-in-law). I have once again expunged the contentious text. Not only is it factually incorrect, it seeks to defame us and impute to us motives that are mere conjecture. You can clearly see that the text is not in keeping with the spirit of your site.

I strongly suggest that this page be shut down as it adds little or no value to wikepedia. I understand that there has been a warning placed on this page but now request that action be taken and the page pulled off your site.

Thanks for considering this,

Victor Nazareth (vnazareth@gmail.com) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.161.179.203 (talk • contribs) 09:39, 2 November 2010


 * There have been some problems on this page. I've restored what appears to be the latest sourced version which I believe has no BLP violations. Dougweller (talk) 09:48, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I've taken the additional step of semi-protecting it. We've had persistent BLP violations and failed to spot and revert then. There's no way the subjects should have to continue to put up with that failure.--Scott Mac 13:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Gary Herbert
Article about a politician is a long term site for edit warring. The question I have regards the controversy section--it's all sourced, but the article in general could use some more attention re: neutrality check. JNW (talk) 19:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Benyamin Netanyahu BLP violation?
Some users claim the information added here: is a BLP violation, and it has now been removed from the article.

Source is Haaretz, its a direct quote, attributed to who said it.

Is it a BLP violation? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:38, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * - Its just an insulting attack with no informative or educational value at all .. Yes, imo it is a BLP violation, whether it is cited or quoted or gold plated. Off2riorob (talk) 20:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Its not an insulting attack, its the White House spokesman describing Netanyahu according to his pov. Could you please show me what text at WP:BLP this information violates? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

'''Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives, and the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.'''


 * - I don't think obnoxious liar, cheat, liar, complies in any way does it. Off2riorob (talk) 21:02, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * This quote is not a "titillating claim" that Lockhart said it, it is a reliable quote from a notable person. Its not a "claim" that he said it. How is the information not conservatively and how is it a "tabloid" or "sensationalist"? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Supreme, don't be absurd. It's an insulting, scurillous attack and we are not going to reprint it. Also, do not forum shop - I'm sure you can find people at Talk:Benjamin Netanyahu who will explain to you at length what words like "conservative" and "titillating" and "tabloid" mean, assuming you do not already, given your previous encounters with our BLP policy. Ray  Talk 21:11, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec)reply to user Supreme Deliciousness - I can't help you any more than I have, feel free to wait for more comments. Off2riorob (talk) 21:13, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * While Lockhart may have written these words, there are two big problems I see with their use in the article:
 * The quote is taken out of context, so we have no idea why Lockhart might have described Netanyahu this way.
 * Because this is presented as a pull quote, it not only prevents the use of prose to add the necessary context, but it gives the quote undue emphasis.
 * While it's generally best to use secondary and tertiary sources, in this case I find myself wanting to see the original source—Lockhart's book—to see if there's any context there that might redeem this quote. (Also, while Lockhart's book would be a primary source about Lockhart, to the extent that he discusses Netanyahu it might be a secondary source, but it's impossible to say without seeing it.) // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 03:03, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Ralph Watts
Can someone familiar with political biographies check Ralph Watts' quotes and issues sections? They are all well-sourced, but seem intended to turn his article into a political attack page. --Philosopher Let us reason together. 22:30, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I know nothing about US politics, but that version was an outrageous hatchet-job. I've reverted back to an earlier one, removing half of the article in the process. Can someone else watch list this, I expect the pov pushers will be back.--Scott Mac 22:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for taking a look at it. --Philosopher Let us reason together. 23:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Tabloid-like accusations against Clarence Thomas


Recently Clarence Thomas has been in the news, with his former girlfriend making highly-charged accusations against him (in e.g. The Washington Post). Some editors (IP accounts and regular accounts) are using the occasion of this news to introduce highly-inflammatory information into his BLP and related subarticle. Most of the material deals with accusations that relate to their former personal relationship, as opposed to a subordinate employee relationship. As far as I can tell, none of the material deals directly with his behavior or verbal interaction with his subordinates. If it did, then it would be relevant to the Anita Hill accusations, as she was a subordinate of his. Many people involved in the production of The Washington Post and The New York Times clearly strongly dislike Thomas, as he is a favorite whipping boy of left-leaning journalists. In my view, the following paragraph in the lead of WP:BLP applies here:
 * Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives, and the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to BLPs, including any living person mentioned in a BLP even if not the subject of the article, and to material about living persons on other pages. The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia rests with the person who adds or restores material. Drrll (talk) 12:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

WP is also not a good place to insert claims made in new books, as there is a tendency for book publicists to make the most scandalaous charges, which somehow then are not supported by the final product. This is especially a concern during the biennial US political silly season (vide the charges against Arnold S. two years ago, which then turned out to be of trivial significance, charges about Alex Sink using Florida state jets, and so on). Collect (talk) 13:02, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen anyone talking about inserting "claims made in new books". At issue is material covered in news items in the CNN, New York Times, ABC News, CBS News, Washington Post, among others. As far as I can tell, news items from these sources are acceptable, or even preferred, sources for a BLP. has objected because he considers the New York Times and Washington Post to be "left-leaning", "partisan" news outlets . And because he personally believes that "many people" at the Post and the Times "clearly strongly dislike Thomas" (immediately above). And because he personally considers this material "trashy" . None of those seem to be policy-based objections to me; they seem to be based on personal opinion and ideological viewpoint. This material seems to fall very clearly under the portion of WP:BLP which states: If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. So there is a strong policy-based rationale for including this material, and (as best I can tell) no policy-based objection. I would appreciate additional outside input, though, because I agree that discussion at Talk:Clarence Thomas tends to be driven primarily by editors' personal ideology rather than Wikipedia policy. MastCell Talk 17:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have never objected per se to using The NYT or The Washington Post as sources in BLPs. It's just that WP is not obligated to use whatever material these sources put out. The question is that of relevance of adding unrelated sensationalistic material to articles. Drrll (talk) 18:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Inter alia "I have nothing against McEwen, but I hope her book fails to find a publisher."   "Of course, McEwan has her own reasons to hype up the issue: she is currently shopping a book about her career and relationship with Supreme Court Associate Justice Clarence Thomas" and so on.  I think it was clear. Collect (talk) 17:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree strongly with MastCell, an attempt to make a policy-based objection to this material is utterly unconvincing. It is entirely relevant to his notability.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * As I stated a moment ago on the Thomas Talk page, I, too, agree with MastCell. There's way too much hoopla being made of adding this material. The resistance to adding it by a few editors speaks volumes.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * My understanding was that MastCell favored waiting on inclusion, due to WP:Recentism. In any event, why should the McEwen material all be included in the main Thomas article, instead of included in the applicable sub-article and then merely summarized in the main article; in other words, why disregard WP:Summary style?166.137.136.187 (talk) 23:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * As I counted it, 3 editors here favor major restraint and/or contextualizing McEwen's charges and 3 editors (yourself included) take a different view. Drrll (talk) 13:22, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Are charges of sexual assault relevant to Al Gore's notability? It was reported by reliable sources. Drrll (talk) 18:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you having a hard time finding Talk:Al Gore? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll take that as a no. Depends on the target of accusations, eh? Drrll (talk) 19:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

The main problem right now at the Clarence Thomas article is that WP:Summary style is being disregarded. By the way, Drrll, you should mention at the article talk page when you start a discussion here. Anyway, consensus here is quickly ignored at the article in question.166.137.137.161 (talk) 19:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Michael Spiegel
I strongly suspect that a Wikipedia page about me was created during the 2008 Presidential campaign by people who wanted to sensationalize the William Ayers "paling-around-with-terrorists" claim against Obama. It is clearly biased, focuses on one part of my life 40 years ago, and contains inaccurate information, some of which should be considered a violation of your privacy standards, at the least. Since the time period discussed in the article, I have become a civil rights attorney, I have worked on some notable cases of public interest, and have other achievements which may or may not merit discussion on a page about me. To the extent that there is information on the existing page which you think belongs in Wikipedia, and is accurate and sourced, I do not object to it. What I propose is that you immediately take down the page, and work with me to put up another one that complies with your standards. I have read your BLP policies, and I am not interested in self-promotion, but I would like to create a fair, balanced and accurate page about me if there is going to be one. Mikespieg (talk)
 * Now at Articles for deletion/Michael Spiegel. -- Cirt (talk) 10:33, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Stubified article pending result of AfD. J04n(talk page) 15:31, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Cork's 96FM and Neil Prenderville


This info was inserted into Cork's 96FM this morning on the back of a breaking news story where a radio stations leading DJ has hit the headlines for some pretty negative reasons on a flight from London. The story has been corroborated and the individual himself issued an apology on air. From what I can make out, at the time of the incident, Prenderville was operating in a private capacity. I'm not sure if this adds to the article on the station as it is about the individual and I feel could be counted as a sourced attack however I am hesitant to remove such well sourced info as per WP:NOTCENSORED. I would appreciate some third party input. G ain  Line    ♠  ♥ 11:52, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree removal could be seen as censorship. Its really a single report repeated in the other cite, if the comment remains as it is and is not expanded unduly then it is borderline for inclusion. It is not exactly headline news in major international publications and wikipedia wouldn't want to be the primary dissemination of such information about a person who is actually not Wikipedia notable...thoughts? Off2riorob (talk) 14:22, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The incident is probably only receiving coverage because it so is sensational, I'm not sure it is deserving of attention in the article unless the individual loses his job because of it. I really don't see how the controversy relates to the radio station and this seems to be introducing negative material for the sake of it G  ain  Line    ♠  ♥ 16:24, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've semi-protected it for a week. Fences  &amp;  Windows  23:47, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've boldly gone ahead and removed the section. I have moved the references used to the talk page (but without a references section) so that they are readily available for reinsertion if that's what's decided. I have no problem with someone or someones arguing for its reinsertion in the article if that's seen as warranted. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:01, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, seems reasonable. Thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 00:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Tranches: a new way to patrol BLPs
Please visit the page below and consider adopting one of the 100 lists of 5000 BLPs by putting your signature at the end of the corresponding line.

The idea is to get every single edit to a known BLP patrolled, even the articles that are not otherwise watched.

To patrol recent changes to the articles, click on the "related changes" link for your chosen list. Diffs can be inspected in the usual way; it's not unlike a normal watchlist. Start at the bottom and work your way up.

The lists will be refreshed regularly to account for changes in the content of the living persons category.


 * User:Tony Sidaway/Living people/tranches

Tasty monster (=TS ) 13:29, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani


Someone continuously tampers with the article on Sakineh Ashtiani in a way that spreads libelous information about a living person who is in fact fighting an unjust execution sentence in Iran. Most specifically, someone continues to include text that says that Sakineh Ashtiani was convicted of murder. Ms. Ashtiani was never convicted of murder; she was exonerated on the charge of murdering her husband and in fact another person was convicted for that crime.

When the Islamic Republic faced opposition to Sakineh's stoning sentence for adultery, they sought then to convince the world that she was instead a murderer, so that they could hang her instead (which tends to meet less political resistance than stoning) for a crime on which basis other countries also execute people (murder). The continuous inclusion of Islamic Republic fabrications to smear the name of Sakineh Astiani is unacceptable in any case, not least in the situation where this woman is fighting for her life.

Sincerely,

Maria Rohaly Coordinator, Mission Free Iran http://missionfreeiran.org . Maria Rohaly (talk) 17:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Steven Seagal
The introduction to Steven Seagal's biography contains several uses of profanity. Cnnjnnbnn (talk) 22:32, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Just normal vandalism, since reverted. Black Kite (t) (c) 22:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Dan Severn
NPOV issue with this article:

"The future of this renaissance man is unlimited."

"Severn easily established his place among the best fighters in the world with his awesome competitive fire to be the best."

"Severn has also had more of desire to do films"

"...dominating his opponents to capture the tournament championship at UFC 5: Return of the Beast."

nameless314 76.112.210.182 (talk) 00:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Feel free to be bold next time and make the changes yourself; I just went through and did a first pass. I'm currently moving around the references.  I'm sure this could use more work, too--so more eyes is more better.  Qwyrxian (talk) 01:40, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming
There's a discussion on the talk page about the selection criteria, but I'm concerned that there may be BLP problems in what is in any case a contentious subject. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 16:36, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I wasn't clear about my concern. It's simply that from looking at the talk page the criteria is being discussed, and that a suggestion being discussed is ".For the purposes of this list, qualification as a scientist is reached by publication of at least one peer-reviewed article in their lifetime in a broadly construed area of "natural sciences". The article need not have been written in recent years nor be in a field relevant to climate." Is that enough, or do we need reliable sources for each name in the list that they are indeed 'scientists opposing the mainstream' etc.? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 06:38, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I've been watching this page for nearly a week, waiting for the intellectually sound and morally stimulating debate to begin, but it looks like climate change issues are still persona non grata in polite society. So, "it's just us chickens"; we'd better sort it out among ourselves, as usual. --Nigelj (talk) 21:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

John Beyer
On 20th October, 31 August and 20 August "contentious material that is unsourced" was added to this page.(unsigned by User:217.44.124.228 - Off2riorob (talk) 11:27, 4 November 2010 (UTC))


 * - Removed, you are also able to edit articles, please be bold in removing such uncited content in BLP articles. I also removed the picture as it was copyrighted .. actually he is not really notable enough for his own BLP and the content would be better merged to the Mediawatch-uk article but he appears to have retired last year .. I have added the merge template. 11:36, 4 November 2010 (UTC)Off2riorob (talk)

Arash Ashkar's


The above-mentioned article lacks neutral point of view as it is obvious in all parts of the article. The article provides aesthetic opinions about the artist's artworks without mentioning any references. As you may see, the writer mentioned:"Arash Ashkar is one of the Minimal photographers who is very talented in this field" or somewhere else in the article:"He loves significant and meaningful art styles and he tries to create professional and effective photos" and in order to introduce some of the artist's artworks he/she mentioned:"Now here you can see some of his incredible art works" and it is obvious that these sentences are against NPOV (Neutral Point of View) which is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia. This article also is not verifiable and it is not attributable to any reliable published source. As a matter of fact the article is poorly sourced and the only sources mentioned in the article are the artist personal website and his personal profile in MyOpenid.com.
 * Gone via CSD A7. Interesting first edit by User:Pg326...  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:44, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Alan_Wolk_v._Walter_Olson

 * Arthur Alan Wolk v. Walter Olson
 * (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Alan_Wolk_v._Walter_Olson)
 * Arthur Alan Wolk
 * (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Alan_Wolk)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Boo_the_puppy

I represent Arthur Alan Wolk, Attorney in connection with the proper use of his name on the Internet. I came across several wikipedia pages regarding him. Arthur Wolk is a living person who is an expert in aviation law and air safety. He is also an author who wrote a book, "Reflections of My Puppy" at www.boos-books.com with all profits donated to animal shelters.

This user "Boo the puppy" is posting information not relevant to Mr. Wolk's area of expertise and his username and description "I am a lovable golden retriever with no assets. Woof! I live in California and am familiar with California anti-SLAPP law." show that he CLEARLY has a conflict of interest or personal agenda to defame or otherwise discredit Mr. Wolk.

I am requesting that the page Arthur Alan Wolk v. Walter Olson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Alan_Wolk_v._Walter_Olson) be removed immediately and that "Boo_the_puppy" be banned from wikipedia.

Christine DeGraff 856-769-5600 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.165.58 (talk) 16:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Although Christine DeGraff claims to "represent" Mr. Wolk, she is not an attorney, but rather a web developer Partially redacted by Hipocrite (talk) 21:13, 4 November 2010 (UTC) . Racepacket (talk) 18:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

DJ Miko


Just a heads up about a section currently in the article claiming that a named individual is an impostor of the subject and had previously hijacked the article. (There is a reference provided for the individual having been arrested for identity theft.) Even so, does it belong there? Voceditenore (talk) 19:05, 4 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I have removed the section - it does not. Hipocrite (talk) 21:13, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Thomas Moody (musician)


This article has just been replaced with the text TMoody requests that this article be deleted to prevent further slanderous and defamatory information from being added to it. [and then some more]. The editor requesting deletion is the same editor who made the article. Maybe it should just be deleted per speedy deletion criterion G7: 'Author requests deletion'. Arthena(talk) 22:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There was an active prod, and so I've reverted that edit -- in another couple of days it can be deleted according to the usual procedure here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:45, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There was a lot of unreferenced material in there that had nothing to do with his musical career, it has now been removed. J04n(talk page) 22:51, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That's fine -- my intention was to restore the prod and I agree with the removal of unsourced material (I shouldn't have re-added it). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:57, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Arthur Alan Wolk
User Lawrencewarwick is working with Arthur Wolk on the Arthur Alan Wolk article: see and.

The same user is deleting information about notable court cases from the Arthur Wolk article. He claims that this violates living persons policy because blogs are cited, but no blogs are cited, just journalist Jacob Sullum, reliably-sourced newspaper articles, and court decisions.


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arthur_Alan_Wolk&diff=prev&oldid=394556114

But Lawrencewarwick's edits turn the article into a press release. That does not seem right. I looked up Arthur Alan Wolk after reading about his unsuccessful lawsuit, and there was nothing in the article about what seemed like a notable internet lawsuit. (I use this account name because I don't want Wolk to sue me, too!)

Can a third party help resolve this dispute? Thank you!

Why all the primary court reports? If this issue is actually noteworthy their will be independent reports about the issues and we can report on those reports. ? The content is overly primary cited to legal docs and it overly legalistic in detail resulting in this jargon bloated court report. Off2riorob (talk) 16:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The primary court reports are supplements to the secondary sources that discuss the primary court reports. I cited to the primary source for the most neutral and complete explanation. I am happy to collaborate on edits.


 * Should I cite to the Overlawyered post that was the subject of the lawsuti? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boo the puppy (talk • contribs) 16:54, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If you want to keep it, I would suggest trimming it to the bones and supporting it with two or three of the strongest secondary citations. Others may disagree, I have a dislike for publishing primary court reports as that as I see it is beyond our remit. Off2riorob (talk) 16:58, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Is it really independantly notable? Apart from the person that wrote the blog is it covered in major publications? Off2riorob (talk) 17:00, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes. It's been covered in Reason (magazine), The Legal Intelligencer, and Philadelphia Business Journal, all of which are cited.


 * You say "trim it to the bones," but the section discusses three notable court cases, and devotes only two or three sentences to each. What is fat? Boo the puppy (talk) 17:03, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, reason magazine is not a bad magazine but it is not a mainline major publication and we have few links, about 50 to it from our BLP articles., the same could be said of the other two. Off2riorob (talk) 17:06, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I am guessing, you have a legal background? I am thinking that as this content is in your field so to speak that is why it appears noteworthy?  Wikipedia is not read by legal experts and as such is not written by legal experts.Off2riorob (talk) 17:07, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Reason is major. "The magazine has a circulation of around 60,000 and was named one of the 50 best magazines in 2003 and 2004 by the Chicago Tribune."  That's bigger circulation than The New Republic.  The writer of the Reason article, Jacob Sullum, is a notable journalist.  I read about the lawsuit in Reason, read about Wolk's threat to sue Reason for writing about the lawsuit, and looked up Arthur Wolk on the Internet, and was surprised to see a press release written by an associate of Wolk masquerading as a Wikipedia article. I don't understand what you consider to be "legal expert" about what was written. Can you read the two short Reason articles, and compare and tell me where I can make things clearer? Boo the puppy (talk) 17:15, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Reason is not major at all. And Sullum's comments are all primary reports that don't assert any independent notability at all. I like press releases, I like neutral reports, we are not here to add a bunch of negative legal primary dockets that the bot removes and minor issues reported as if major. I would suggest that from your editing contributions that you would benefit from reading WP:COI - Off2riorob (talk) 17:21, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Off2riorob, Reason is a major magazine. That doesn't exempt what they write from our BLP rules, however. That said, the current form of the biography reads more than a bit like an advertisement. Ray  Talk 17:57, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough Ray, in its field/area it is a decent magazine but it is quite minor as far as being used to reliably support content in this wiki. The article is a bit like a CV but that is it really, simple stuff, the main details of his life. Off2riorob (talk) 18:13, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What a puzzling post. It only looks like a cv today because you have been repeatedly removing sourced material added by another editor.  Once that material is properly restored, it won't look like a cv.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:51, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Please don't confrontationally engage with me in a continuation of our previous dispute, thanks Off2riorob (talk) 18:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Since that's not what I'm doing, I'll let my own post stand on its merits. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

The addition by Boo the puppy "Unsuccessful libel plantiff" is not noteworthy at all and should be removed from the article... too much space (about 1/3 of the page) is devoted to a liabel lawsuit that was dismissed because of a 1 year statute of limitation law - how is that noteworthy isn't that a very minor issue? It set no legal precedent and is not relevant. Six (6) of the 8 citations in this section are to Jacob Sullum's blog on Reason Magazine the whole section is about Sullum's comments. Furthermore Boo the puppy says I am an associate of Arthur Wolk which is not true I wrote the article because I'm interested in air safety issues and from seaching the internet found he is an expert in air safety and aviation law I called him and asked if I could write an article for Wikipedia ... Also Boo says Wolk unsuccessfully sought the impeachment of a Judge there is no citation for this and in fact the judge later recanted her criticism of Wolk. I don't understand Boo the puppy's agenda ... why such a big deal about a lawsuit being dismissed for filing too late? Is it appropriate for me to delete Boo's edits or should I leave the descision to other editors? My agenda is I admire Arthur Wolk and am very unhappy that such weight is given to a conflict he is having with bloggers, please advise me as to what steps should be taken LEW (talk) 21:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You go ahead as you are aware of the level of actual notability, I supported trimming it right back to the bones myself. Off2riorob (talk) 21:39, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * In response to User:Lawrencewarwick, the fact that an attorney tried to get around the statute of limitations says a lot about the character of that attorney. So it is relevant to the article. Racepacket (talk) 17:27, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Joel Monaghan


The subject has been the subject of some fairly nasty rumours - which admittedly have now got some coverage in some fairly reputable newspapers. See the Sydney Morning Herald article here for example. I have deleted the offending edits and semi-protected the page&mdash;before I saw the SMH article&mdash;but given that there is now a reliable source for the allegation (but not the fact) someone else may wish to review what I have done. I stand by my edits given the seriousness of the rumours but would like some confirmation from others (or otherwise). Mattinbgn (talk) 05:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * As presented it was a major BLP violation so I suppressed the edits in question. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 16:43, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I learned about this BLP situation when List of scandals with "-gate" suffix had allusions to this scandal added to it more than once. (List of scandals with "-gate" suffix is now under "pending changes" protection for now...) There's a fairly long thread on Talk:Joel Monaghan that links to several proposed sources. I think, based on one of the oddest Google searches of my life, this probably does merit sensible, tasteful inclusion... &mdash; Scientizzle 13:58, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Glen A. Staples


This article is written in a rather hostile tone and makes some rather definite and uncited assertions about the tehology of T. D. Jakes. Mangoe (talk) 03:25, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed the unsourced/antagonistic stuff (e.g. calling Jakes a heretic) -- Mangoe, next time just take the initiative and do it yourself.
 * The article should probably be prodded -- a news archive search produces only a few results. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:37, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Lee Baca
A single-purpose account keeps adding a skewed view of Baca's recent statements on a marijuana vote, which is defamatory and not noteworthy to his bio. Please lock down.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I left User:Alienassasin a note about this thread and a note not to add that youtube link as it is an unofficial upload and a likely copyright violation. Off2riorob (talk) 16:39, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Rafer Johnson bio


Wrong information about Rafer Johnson subduing Sirhan Sirhan, In fact it was Roosevelt Grier

Replace this with a brief explanation of the situation. Kyoung4678 (talk) 16:25, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Rafer Johnson ....from our BLP .. In 1968, he worked on the presidential election campaign of Robert F. Kennedy and helped wrestle Sirhan Sirhan to the floor immediately after Sirhan had assassinated Kennedy

the cite is a bit blogish ..but does say .. "It was Rafer Johnson who wrestled Sirhan Sirhan to the ground and, with the help of football player Rosey Grier, pried the gun from his fingers". http://joeposnanski.si.com/2010/08/02/rafer-johnson-and-the-power-of-10/?xid=cnnbin&hpt=Sbin written by Joe Posnanski

Rosey Grier ....from our BLP .. the night that Kennedy was assassinated in Los Angeles in 1968. Grier and Olympic gold medalist Rafer Johnson heard shots fired ahead of them. Reacting first, Johnson subdued the shooter followed by Grier (as seen in official White House archives. As Johnson grabbed the gun, Grier placed his hand over Johnson's to help secure the weapon.

Seems pretty fair imo, perhaps a link to Griers BLP as in ...and helped Rosey Grier apprehend Sirhan Sirhan immediately after Sirhan had assassinated Kennedy.✅ - Off2riorob (talk) 18:09, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Ed Cunningham


Can use more eyes on this article. There's a controversy section using youtube and self published sources (my.journalstar.com) as sources, and every time I try and remove this information it's reverted. I've opened up discussion on the article's talk page to no avail. I don't wish to edit war over this, so extra help to settle the dispute would be appreciated. Akerans (talk) 17:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed the content as it is cited to not wiki reliable locations and left the IP:64.141.193.11 that has added it three times a note here about the content and a link to this thread. Off2riorob (talk) 17:57, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

File:FIT spotter card
This was uploaded as PD because The Guardian claims it to be so. It's beyond me how they can publish images of people that are explicitly not meant to be for public view. But for sure Wikipedia should not ! 217.235.14.122 (talk) 18:46, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see the claim of public domain is correct at all, I can't see any copyright info so it must be free is not a strong public domain claim to say the least. A whole bunch of unidentified people on a police card that clearly says it should have been destroyed after the event, clear BLP issues as all the people are unidentified and could well be uninvolved or whatever, which article does the uploader want to add it to? .. ah Forward_Intelligence_Team  - who is the alleged copyright owner that has released it into the public domain and grants any entity the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.? It can't be the police as they clearly say on the photograph that it is classed by them as confidential waste and that it was supposed to be destroyed, I imagine they are the actual copyright holders and the guardian have simply taken a picture of something they have found. Off2riorob (talk) 19:01, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thought this might come up after I mentioned it at ANI. I uploaded it in GF, if an RS says something is PD, then I'm inclined to believe them, no offence but I think they might have more of a clue about what makes something PD than we do. I'll try contacting someone at The Guardian to get some clarification. (Thanks Off2riorob for the note). SmartSE (talk) 20:06, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No worries, I see I forgot to sign, excuse me. I looked on the Guardian article, where do they say it is PD, I cant see it, perhaps for looking. If is is unclear can we keep it out of the article whilst we find out? Off2riorob (talk) 20:14, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No problem. It doesn't actually say beneath the big photo, but as I explained in the description, follow ups which used parts of the spotter card said that they were PD, e.g.  and others. IMO, there's a good chance of making a decent fair use rationale even if it isn't PD - it's relevant to the article, is irreplacable and it could easily be discussed in more detail in the article. Anyway, I've emailed the guardian, so should hopefully here back within the next week. SmartSE (talk) 20:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The fair use claim is plausible but then we have to start looking at the BLP issues of multiple unnamed people some of whom have no criminal record and one of them is named as being a notable person that we have a BLP on, personally I wish it hadn't been uploaded and is imo a net loss. In the uk it is not even normal to release pictures of criminals under PD never mind what are actually innocent people. If you like you can easily request deletion as uploader and get rid of it. Off2riorob (talk) 20:55, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess you're thinking along the lines of WP:MUG, but I don't consider it to "present a person in a false or disparaging light". The article and caption don't say anything about who they are, or whether they are guilty of anything or not, in fact it makes it implies that they have done nothing wrong. I'm a bit personally attached to the article, as it's what got me editing here in the first place, but I do think that it adds to the article, so am not going to request deletion at the moment. If you think it doesn't belong for whatever reason, theb nom it at WP:FFD or WP:PUF (not sure which) and I won't fight too hard. SmartSE (talk) 21:31, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I will have to disagree with your position that it doesn't show the people in a disparaging light, imo it very clearly does., well I don't support it but I can do what I usually do with such things that I really don't agree with and take it off my watchlist, presently it is unsupportable as PD and the license needs sorting out and I may be alone in my belief that it is a violation of the peoples rights in the picture, well the IP that opened this thread also agrees with that, so, the Guardian imo has already done the damage there but we don't have to continue to aid the posting of these people across the internet. Off2riorob (talk) 21:40, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the problem is it's questionable if the Guardian is even definitely trying to claim the photo is in the public domain in the copyright sense. The Guardians lawyers may believe they can legally use those photos. However the claim of photo: public domain is unlikely to affect any relevant fair dealing claim AFAIK and so they probably don't care whether journalists, who don't necessary know much about copyrights and may not even be intending to refer to copyrights when they say photo: public domain (possibly instead that the photo is in the public domain in a general sense as it came from a police pamphlet and they have no idea who took the photo). I do agree a fair use claim here on wikipedia is plausible. To put it a different way, we have to be careful about reading too much into random stuff even if they are in RS. Nil Einne (talk) 09:58, 6 November 2010 (UTC)


 * - I have sent the pic to PossiblyUnfeeeFiles for discussion here - Off2riorob (talk) 10:57, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added a fair use rationale and reduced the resolution. Looking at Image_use_policy I don't think there is a problem, as these people were all photographed in public places. (Not sure what to do about the PUF thread). Thanks again for the note. SmartSE (talk) 11:26, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You can see that these people were actually not all photographed in public places, some of the shots are smiling and square on to the cam, some of the pictures have clearly been harvested without permission from facebook sites and so on, so yes, imo privacy rights are an issue. Art least one of the people in the picture (without their permission) is an identifiable notable living person. Also imo it doesn't add anything to the article as way of information (apart from a colourful pic) that the explanation spotter cards are cards with multiple small pictures of people to watch out for on ..doesn't explain. Off2riorob (talk) 11:29, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The increased low res looks ok and comprimises are certainly a good idea. It isn't on commons, so I'm not sure why you've linked to a commons guideline, though and they're only identifiable by reading things off wiki. I'll ask Dcoetzee to take a look at the FUR and see if it can be improved. SmartSE (talk) 12:30, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, It was the first time I had over written a pic and I messed it up a little bit, I think this is about sorted, although I don't support its inclusion, the fair use rationale and the image size is all as good as it is going to get, those issues have been addressed, so I guess you are free to add it if you want to. Off2riorob (talk) 12:35, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I need an admin to delete from the history the latest version of Terrorist Screening Center
A name is identified, without any source and in an inappropriate place in the article, as being the latest addition to the TSC. Lulaq (talk) 07:14, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * All set, thank you. J04n(talk page) 09:39, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Dog and racism
Another editor pointed out that Dog_Chapman is 25% of the biography. This seems to be overly-weighted to me, and may be indicating that someone is trying to slur the subject of that BLP. I bring it to this board's attention now. I don't think it is necessary to excise the entire section, but is it possible, perhaps, that we pare it down? Also, I have a feeling that those blockquotes detract from the encyclopedic nature of the article.

ScienceApologist (talk) 13:30, 6 November 2010 (UTC)


 * - Those quotes are a bit much, don't we have Wikiquotes where they would be better. Off2riorob (talk) 13:44, 6 November 2010 (UTC)


 * A bounty hunter? Wow. I had no idea this barbarous practice made it into the 20th century, let alone the 21st. It does look like a BLP vio to me, but that's really for Americans to decide. Hans Adler 13:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, for most people it would be a BLP vio. But certain people ... choose to be notorious for certain things, and are not in the last ashamed of them. Generally speaking, I've got a lower bar for what constitutes inflammatory or inappropriate coverage for media celebrities than for other notable people, particularly ones that cultivate such ... colorful public personalities. Ray  Talk 21:22, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Ray's cuts are a definite improvement, but that section is still poorly written in the kluged Wikipedia style of people adding a sentence every time something happened in the news without updating what had previously been written or considering how the section as a whole reads. An editor could easily consolidate what's there into four or five sentences (Dog said something bad, there was controversy resulting in advertiser(s) dropping, Dog apologized, Roy Innis accepted the apology, the show was briefly taken off the air) without losing any substance. THF (talk) 00:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Ian Blair
What a mess. It looks like it has been a mess for a long time, and once was stubbed due to the mess. The issue is the classic problem that we often have: the man has been involved in a fair number of controversies, about which there has been a ton of press coverage. But our tone is unrelentingly negative, and I believe we have a lot of cherry-picking going on by people who hate him.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:53, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What are the more positive things for which he is known? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:44, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * He was a policeman that joined the police force as a simple constable and after thirty years service, some of it walking the streets of Soho rose up to the highest ranking police officer in the Metropolitan police force.Off2riorob (talk) 15:51, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

The problem here is the usual problem is that we are writing a biography, without biographical sources. All we have are media reports which mention him. Media reports centre on controversies, and as a Chief Constable any controversy involving the Met (which is one of the largest police authorities in the world) will get his name attached because it happened on "his watch". So what dominates the article is "police problems during his tenure". All verifiable and true, but not a biography. A true biography would narrate the "boring" bits about how this particular pc was brilliant enough to rise through the ranks to the very top. Sadly, I doubt there's much can be done about articles like this.--Scott Mac 16:26, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sure there's something that can be done. The trouble is that, whether by bad luck or bad judgement (I have no opinion), Blair was commissioner at the time of some of the Met's most controversial incidents, such as the shooting of Jean-Charles De Menezis, the two terrorist attacks on London and was repeatedly outspoken in views that weren't popular with the politicians and controversy sells papers, so that's what the vast majority of RSs will focus on. I'll have a look at it in the morning. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   01:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Tom Brady
I have posted a true fact about Tom Brady's statistical football career three times now, the last time with two reputable references to back up the claim, so I'm wondering as to why the edits have been taken off both times. This is in reference to the TD:INT ratio career statistic edit that I have made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pendragonrah (talk • contribs)


 * The problem here appears to be the source you used for the statistic. Find the same fact mentioned on ESPN.com or NFL.com or a newspaper website or some other similarly reputable site, and no one should complain. This is a WP:RS issue, rather than a WP:BLP issue. THF (talk) 20:11, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The editor (admin) who has been reverting the edit really ought to have provided an edit summary explaining the problem... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:12, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Euan S McIver


This 'biography' read's like an advert for the actor. There is more content and so called knowledge on him than most figures who are actually in the public eye. The only sources are from local newspaper. Breaches terms of neutrality of biography of persons living in terms of neutrality, also as this actor is seemingly very little known there is not much justification for having so much information on him if any at all. 213.104.244.32 (talk) 19:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a piece of work... I've stubbified it.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)


 * - Content was a cut and paste copyright violation from the subjects own site http://www.euanmciver.webs.com - Off2riorob (talk) 20:02, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Harriet Harman
I would encourage editors familiar with British politics and BLP to add to their watchlists and contribute to discussions on the talk page. It's not a big deal at the minute and I'm hoping more eyes will prevent it from becoming one. Thanks, HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   01:37, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Harmon has been convicted for some traffic offenses. Based upon this, someone has apparently decided that she should be included in the category "British criminals." Fortunately, this has now been reverted. I consider it a blatant BLP and UNDUE violation and, pursuant to the rule that controversial BLP content is to be omitted unless and until there is consensus on the talkpage to include it rather than the reverse, in the absence of such a consensus this categorization is not to be restored. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Do we ever use British criminals for Summary offences? I presume her traffic offences are of this variety. Nil Einne (talk) 02:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Linda McMahon
Linda McMahon was an unsuccessful candidate for Senator from Connecticut. The article has material which is problemating in any BLP, but which is there because one editor says it must be there to prevent a "whitewash." Some of the material lacks cites from RS sources, and makes conjectures as to her acts and motivations. I tagged some of the unsourced claims, and the other editor quickly reverted. I used the same standards on Alex Sink which he did not object to, and I suggest that BLPs are not the place to tabloidify WP. I beseech others to examine what the reliable sources actually say, and determine which claims are proper in this BLP. Thanks! Collect (talk) 22:53, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * First of all, do not assume bad faith. I included information because it is factual and referenced. There is no disputing the material. It is cited and if you had read the sources, you would not be starting this illogical argument. I welcome feedback, sure, but do not beseech others to do something without your own due diligence first.


 * (side note) Regarding Alex Sink, I never edited that page. It must be on a separate discussion.--Sc r ew ba ll 23 talk 23:11, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I always think if someone adds some templates especially citation required templates in a BLP rather than just remove them it is better to just discuss them. Shall we look at them here? That whole section is a bit coatracky, lots of detail that reallty has nothing to do with her .. One of the cite req that was added, is .. Because of Hogan's testimony,[citation needed] Vince was acquitted of all charges... to me that is clearly a fgalse claim, you are aquitted because you are innocent.Off2riorob (talk) 23:14, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but that is wrong. Even in the best of worlds, you are acquitted because the prosecutor failed to prove his case beyond reasonable doubt (as determined by the jury, if it is a jury trial). It's neither necessary nor sufficient for someone to be factually innocent to be acquitted in a court of law. Without going into the details of this case, the testimony of a witness can certainly lead to acquittal. Of course, such a claim does need a reliable source. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:26, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Did I make any such assertion? I listed a page which I had edited, and made no claims about you at all. You have, moreover, edited a number of BLPs, to be sure.  And it appears you simply deleted the POV tag with the comment "Template with Unicode control characters"  which seemed a tad opaque when you meant that you were simply removing any and all tags you disliked. Collect (talk) 23:18, 7 November 2010 (UTC)


 * All readers look into Screwball's history and you will see a clear case for all editors to assume bad faith from him. He's been blocked numerous times now for 3RR violations and opinion pushing. Collect's concerns are absolutely correct. Conjecture (even from a realiable source) is not fact and BLP rules are very strict in this regard. Suggest that Screwball be blocked from editing the article due to his failure to maintain WP:NPOV and for in all likelihood a touch of WP:OR with an agenda. Needed to be said. PrinceJP (talk) 23:22, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * (to Stephan) Yes, excuse my feeble expression, I am far from a legal expert, it does seen to be at least a bit opinionated thought, who says she got off because of that persons testimony, at least if it is in the article we should attribute .. The cite is without an external link - can anyone provide a link to the actual article - ^ a b "A Promoter Of Wrestling Is Acquitted". The New York Times. Printed Saturday, July 23, 1994. Retrieved 2010-01-25.- Off2riorob (talk) 23:30, 7 November 2010 (UTC)


 * - here it is, I don't know how it is not in the article, http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/23/nyregion/a-promoter-of-wrestling-is-acquitted.html Off2riorob (talk) 23:35, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * - after reading the content of the cite it is my opinion that this it does not support this statement - . Because of Hogan's testimony,[citation needed] Vince was acquitted of all charges. Off2riorob (talk) 23:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I looked at it. I deleted one OR opinion, but I think the BLP abuse is problematic, in that most of it is via COATRACKing relatively correct material in a way that's certainly UNDUE. Jclemens (talk) 23:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * User:Screwball have reverted that edit and has removed the templates that user:Collect placed again, I have left him a revert warring warning on his talkpage. Off2riorob (talk) 02:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Again, these warnings and personal accusations against me are not productive. I can tell you that the material is cited, and I urge you to do your due diligence in reading these references. Linda McMahon was made President as part of a legal move in 1993. That has been supported by Counterfeit hero, as I have stated. As far as the tipoff memo is concerned, Collect has never raised a legitimate discussion- or any dicussion for that matter - as to why it's point of view is in some way a violation of Wikipedia's neutrality.--Sc <font color="4169E1">r <font color="00B2EE">ew <font color="FF6600">ba <font color="FFFF00">ll <font color="9400D3">23 talk 02:20, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment It's generally accepted people should explain the reasons for a template while adding it. However even if someone has failed to do so and you don't personally see a reason for the template, particularly if the person is active in the discussion it's better to give them time to explain rather then getting into a needless revert war over the template. Nil Einne (talk) 02:39, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You are absolutely right. I do want to make it clear that Collect placed a POV tag on the section previously and neglected to discuss any of his gripes with the section. I don't know what your feelings on that are, but a template stating POV without any rationale was not helping push this discussion forward. Even now, I'm getting threats from Off2riorob for removing the template, but I still see no discussion as to what his issues are with the section. I personally feel there is nothing wrong with the section, and no one is putting any ideas forward.--<font color="0000EE">Sc <font color="4169E1">r <font color="00B2EE">ew <font color="FF6600">ba <font color="FFFF00">ll <font color="9400D3">23 talk 02:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Eh? I was certainly quite present on the talk page and your assertions that I did not are paplpably errant.  Note further that you have been repeatedly warned about your POV pushing there.   The issue here is whether the templates were properly added - and the consensus here is clear that they were. I ask that those agreeing, please check the latest edits on that page, as I fear Screwball did not hear you. Collect (talk) 11:17, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't lie. You never placed any rationale as to why you put the template up. You just put them up and neglected to put any rationale on the talk page. Second, I put together most of Linda's page, including the good and the bad. You just came along, whitewashed the page, and then accused me of POV because you are immature and would rather delete and fight other people than read referenced research and listen.--<font color="0000EE">Sc <font color="4169E1">r <font color="00B2EE">ew <font color="FF6600">ba <font color="FFFF00">ll <font color="9400D3">23 talk 23:40, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


 * warned Screwball23, and reverted his latest edits. Obviously, someone else will have to do the honors, but I'm pretty sure we'll have quick consensus for at least a topic ban if he doesn't cut it out. Jclemens (talk) 01:18, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Austin Collie


Austin does not have 4 wifes and 9 children by his religious standards. He is married to Brooke Collie, only one wife. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, do not practice polygomy. It is illegal. Only Fundamentalist LDS, a seperate religion, practiseit illegally. Get your facts straight and change this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.166.113.116 (talk • contribs)
 * One of a number of unfortunate instances of vandalism in the aftermath of his injury before the article was protected, most including this reverted within a minute or two  Nil Einne (talk) 06:42, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Anthony G. Adams


The noted article is little more than an advertisement for a product, and one of dubious value at that. Beyond his role in the questionable product the article's subject is of no significance. I was inclined to edit it into oblivion after reading it but decided the route at hand may be the best way to handle the matter. Epischedda (talk) 08:52, 8 November 2010 (UTC) Epischedda

History of the Irish Guards
User has created a section in this article entitled 'War Crimes' and stated as fact the charges against three soldiers, named by the user. In fact the charges against all three were dismissed and the evidence given in court was rejected as per BBC News. Given the heading and tone of the edits the user in question has stated rejected charges as fact and is thus libelous. (Diff) Kernel Saunters (talk) 10:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


 * - Given the seriousness of the report, I have removed it whilst discussion occurs and left a note on User:MFIreland's talkpage with a link to this thread. Off2riorob (talk) 11:34, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

kylie babbinton webuyanycar advert dave channel
This is not Kylie Babbington appearing on this advert it is Carly Baker I think you should check this out before printing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 94.172.15.219 (talk) 11:04, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


 * - Removed, it was uncited and disputed. Off2riorob (talk) 11:39, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: the contested info was restored, but I have removed it again. Per WP:BURDEN, as the information has been contested, anyone wishing to restore it needs to include a source. --<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots 18:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It was not the subject, a case of mistaken identity. Off2riorob (talk) 23:07, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Yishayahu Yosef Pinto


I'm getting anonymous complaints that this is an advertisement for the guy; and posts to my talk page linking to blogs that say that this Kabbalist rabbi put a death curse on a NYC orthodox rabbi who died under mysterious circumstances! Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  23:02, 6 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Doesn't look like an advertisement article to me. Is well sourced in addition. Perhaps the list of famous people who consulted with him is a little tto extensive, but there is more to the article than that alone. In short, I see no problem here. Debresser (talk) 14:06, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * In addition, what about those blogs? What do they have to do with the article? Debresser (talk) 14:08, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * In addition to the in addition, but not related (smile), I moved to article to Yoshiyahu. Debresser (talk) 14:29, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

White Argentine


I consider that much of the content of the article 'White Argentine' may be in breach of WP:BLP policy, in that it assigns multiple persons to the supposed ethnic group 'White Argentinians' without providing any WP:RS, and indeed without actually demonstrating that this 'ethnicity' is itself recognised by a significant number of Argentinians - instead the article seems to be using an arbitrary 'ethnic category' only normally used by outsiders, given that (as one of the contributors to the article himself put it) "...it is probable that all the living people I mention in the article -if asked about their ethnicity- will not answer "White Argentine", but "Argentine of European/Spanish/Italian/German/Arab/Armenian descent", because the exact term argentino blanco is not commonly used in Argentina") here.

I'd draw particular attention to Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality in relation to this issue.

I have tried to discuss this on the article talk page here, but have had little useful response. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree that the title is quite unfortunate and misleading. I am uncertain that it is a direct BLP violation, but does run afoul of reasonable categorization guidelines, in my opinion.  Perhaps something like "European ancestry: Argentina" or the like? which would allow parallel construction for other national demographic articles?  Collect (talk) 22:42, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * This is the problem, the expression does actually exist as it does in Brazil, but it is almost uncitable in relation to notable people that are stuffed into such articles by people in the know - as in .. just look at his picture he is clearly an African American, awful, wikipedias ethnic categorization car crash at its worst. Off2riorob (talk) 22:56, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * A response to Collect: I'd not actually object to the title as such, if it was a reasonable translation of a term customarily used to self-describe ethnicity in Argentina. The problem is that as the article itself explains, it isn't. The only scholarly sources for the term (at least when used in the same way) seem to be external ones. The article includes people of Middle-Eastern descent among the whites, which rather rules out the title you suggest, too.
 * In any case, I think the real difficulty is that it then applies this largely external 'ethnic category' to living persons (many of rather doubtful notability), which might be problematic even if it were sourced - it isn't. The sad thing is that ethnicity in Argentina is clearly an interesting case: this just isn't the way to discuss it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:22, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I noted that the article as it stands violates categorization rules on WP. All I did was suggest that there might be a possibility for articles based on sourced information about ancestry of people in nations, but not using the term "white" which is a highly difficult thing to source.   Collect (talk) 10:18, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It is just about impossible to source, the articles are better with the uncited and original claims removed. Bloated and uncited, written by users who are interested and involved, a real mess, I could make that article into a decent stub, which would be a huge improvement and would bring it in line with policy and guidelines. Articles been basically written by a single user Off2riorob (talk) 16:07, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Yitzchak Ginsburgh


The user "Nomoskedasticity" repeatly re-inserts libelous material of a severe nature in the Controversy Section of article. m656 (talk) 22:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The material is not libelous; instead it is attributed to a perfectly respectable source, i.e. an academic book published by SUNY Press. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:37, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's expand a bit. This guy made a name for himself by praising the actions and character of Baruch Goldstein.  He said what he said, and academics now write about what he said.  There are certain types of rabbis who believe that a Jewish life is worth more than a non-Jewish life -- that's what Ginsburgh's game is.  It is a matter of WP:NPOV to omit the fact that people have noticed this about his views.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

If you just read the particular quotation that is being contested (that was deleted and repeatly reinserted), you'll see that it crosses the red line and is outside the boundaries of what should be acceptable on Wikipedia. m656 (talk) 01:01, 9 November 2010 (UTC)


 * There's no issue of "libel" here given that the individual made the comments in question. It also is well sourced and relevant, so there's no BLP issue. You might be able to argue that the section on this controversial view is too long compared to the rest of the article. The solution to that is to add more well sourced content elsewhere in the article. JoshuaZ (talk) 04:14, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

You say that this is a well sourced quote. The book quoted itself is highly controversial. How can you guys possibly see this quotation as well sourced when the book itself is highly controversial, up to the point that even the name of the book contains the term "fundamentalist" which is officially recognized (in WP:LABEL) as a contentious label ? It is a book of political polemics, and is clearly labeled as such by the author already in the name of the book, Jewish Fundamentalism and the Temple Mount: Who Will Build the Third Temple? This is not exactly a standard reference book. m656 (talk) 09:20, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I wasn't so much concerned about the BLP issue. I just think the quote from Inbari is too detailed, and should therefore be removed or referred to a footnote. I don't think we need a four-line quote in the main text here. Debresser (talk) 10:16, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Just answered Nomoskedasticity at []m656 (talk) 16:27, 9 November 2010 (UTC) I wrote there "Nomoskedasticity does not seem to understand that not everything that is published at a university automatically complies with all of the important Wikipedia restrictions. I have explained to Nomoskedasticity that the material is extremely libelous. Please note that it is not libelous just to Ginsburgh, but is defamatory to Judaism and the Jewish people as a whole. This type of irresponsible text is used by neo-Nazi-style fringe websites."m656 (talk) 16:34, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What utter bullshit. Ginsburgh is what he is, and he doesn't get protection from criticism just because he happens to be Jewish; the things he says can be criticized without the criticism somehow becoming anti-Semitism.  I'll repeat that Ginsburgh's critic (Inbari) is himself Jewish.  The issue here is NPOV; it is entirely reasonable (indeed, necessary to uphold NPOV) to include the kind of academic critique Inbari has published.  That view is part of the range of positions observers have adopted on people like Ginsburgh, and to omit it is to have the article present Ginsburgh in a false light.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:03, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Louis Farrakhan
The picture on Louis Farrakhan's page is not of Louis Farrakhan but of Billie Buckwheat Thomas. This is racially offensive. Please change the picture.(unsigned)
 * Removed. Off2riorob (talk) 23:39, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Ned Yost biography
Ned Yost's 2010 managerial stats do not add up. It shows he has more wins and losses than games managed. 69.150.193.1 (talk) 20:40, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed (I think). Unfortunately, the Wikipedia community does a poor job maintaining sports stats. It's something that many other sites handle much better. Zagal e jo^^^ 00:52, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Charles Jaco
I find my biography on Wikipedia is peppered with false and libelous references to allegations that I and my CNN colleagues reported our January, 1991 Gulf War I coverage from a studio, and not from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Not only is this patently false, it denegrates all of the journalists who covered that war. I would ask that all references containing these demonstrably false and libelous statements be removed. Many thanks, Charles Jaco. 71.81.149.111 (talk) 13:05, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I tweaked the dodgy claimed stuff out of the article, the video upload to the youtube is a likely copyright violation and not an official upload by the owner of the video and the whole thing was a basically jumped up titillating claim that is not borne out by support in high quality sources. Off2riorob (talk) 13:29, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * [ Pssst!] Uncle G (talk) 13:34, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Marc Haynes


Repeated re-instatement of a minor spat as some indication of his 'Politics'. Presented as the (understandably) distorted accusation of his accuser rather than a neutral tone. Results in a misquote - even his accuser in this incident, Toby Young, only points out the implication of his Tweet. History shows that Hanyes's apology was inserted at some point for the sake of neutrality. This was a decent effort, but really, this seems trifling and petty to include. It was not a notable incident, just one that happened to occur between two men over the internet, so there is evidence remaining, unlike if it were a sharp exchange of words in person. If the only references are the two men involved, surely this is not notable? Appears politically motivated, and not what Wikipedia is for. Is this incident any more notable than any other Twitter exchange or blog argument? Haynes barely seems notable enough on his own to me! RentaCenta (talk) 00:11, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing this to the noticeboard. The content as worded was potentially defamation so I suppressed the edits in question. Additionally, I protected the article since the material was repeatedly added in over the past few months by different accounts and ip addresses. Discussion about how to address the content for mention in the article can be discussed on the talk page. If there is agreement, then it can be added to the article. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 09:58, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

allen timpany


It seems there are additions to Allen Timpany's biography that don't comply to the BofLP policy. Being sensationalist, defamatory and slanted. When checking the editer of these additions. It seems that he has been banned before from editing biographies. Please advise. Myrtletheturtle2010 (talk) 11:42, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I have removed all the uncited and imo the gentleman is not really wiki notable or there is not enough independent coverage in the press that I could see for him to require his own Biography, it would simply end up as a CV, and it would be better redirected to the Varco company article, but perhaps someone interested in business will add a few citations and expand a bit. Off2riorob (talk) 12:26, 10 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I have boldly redirect it to Vanco. – ukexpat (talk) 20:15, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Stephen Gammell
The article for Stephen Gammell (the children's book illustrator) states that he died. There is no source cited, and I did a web search to verify this and found no source to back it up. I believe this to be inaccurate.

Replace this with a brief explanation of the situation. 64.134.97.125 (talk) 23:39, 10 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I've simply deleted this "information". I could find no evidence either. It is probably not a coincidence that it was added on Halloween . Voceditenore (talk) 00:02, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * As the death report and date sat in the article unreverted for nine days I have requested pending protection, this will require any future such vandalism to have to be reviewed and accepted before it is visible to the public. Off2riorob (talk) 13:14, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

robert swift pro -wrestling entertainer wrestler

 * robert swift born sept.19,1960,michigan wrestler.has been in pro wrestling and independent wrestling since 1994.starting out in sarasota,florida.and tampa areas in 1992 and going pro in 1994.his short term pro career ended.after a move from the sarasota,florida area to the mobile,alabama.area and a 18 year absence from the ring,he has regained his status and has made a comeback march to the ring.

ad to exsisting list of related persons in the wrestling entertainment area. Wrestling editor mega (talk) 10:00, 11 November 2010 (UTC)


 * - This is not the location to request additions to articles like this. I have left the user a note and a link to WikiProject Professional wrestling the talkpage of which may be a better location. Off2riorob (talk) 13:20, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Werner Erhard vs. Columbia Broadcasting System
Allegations of BLP violations. The article itself appears to be a POVFORK (none of the material is in Werner Erhard, which has multiple tags), and there also appears to be WP:BATTLE issues. The article has above-average sourcing, but it's also an article about a libel lawsuit that did not even result in a court decision. I don't take a position on the BLP issue, but this controversy does appear to need more eyes from uninvolved editors. THF (talk) 20:02, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * These issues had already been raised at the AfD and dealt with there. Multiple respondents commented at the AfD that the article is appropriately sourced, neutral, notable, not a coatrack, not pov . -- Cirt (talk) 20:33, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If that's objectively true, then you should have no concern about uninvolved editors without off-wiki agendas taking a look. Wikipedia doesn't particularly care about consistency, but right now this AFD is being treated differently than very similar AFDs about similarly structured articles. THF (talk) 21:54, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The user that started this BLPN thread has a COI related to the other unrelated AFD he referenced himself, per his own self-disclosure, here diff link. -- Cirt (talk) 22:03, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * And what does that personal attack on me have to do with the BLP accusation in this AFD, where I have no conflict of interest? Yes, the articles are apples and oranges: the libel lawsuit article that is about to be deleted actually has a legal opinion associated with it and doesn't repeat the alleged libelous statements, while this one involves a lawsuit that was withdrawn immediately and coatracks claims of incest and a completely unrelated controversy on a completely unrelated website. THF (talk) 22:07, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It is the nature of some forms of litigation, particularly libel, that it is equally informative and interesting when someone starts a case but withdraws it (with costs) as when someone fights and wins or loses. (I've already voted Keep by the way so I am not "fresh eyes").Fainites barley scribs 22:17, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Filed cases with no Court opinion, if covered sufficiently in RSs, are notable.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:49, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No, they're not. See WP:PERSISTENCE and WP:NOT. Now, maybe the events related to the court case are notable. But the court case itself is not notable.  And a review of this article shows that next to nothing in the article is about the court case, but is rather about events relating to the court case, such as the 60 Minutes piece. THF (talk) 09:15, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure they are. The same rules apply whether or not there is a court opinion.  If they have sufficient coverage in RSs, obviously the "not sufficient coverage" guidelines that you refer to are of no moment.--Epeefleche (talk) 12:36, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment This event is clearly notable enough for an article, but the current state of the entry is an atrocious WP:COATRACK. If it is kept it should be stubbed and people who are not closely involved with any POVs surrounding this subject, on either side, should go about writing a NPOV entry about 1/10 of the size.Griswaldo (talk) 00:04, 12 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I think THF may misundersand WP:POVFORK. He says "none of the material is in Werner Erhard". A POV fork occurs when the same content, more or less, is in two articles with different POVs. Instead, this might be considered a "content fork" which is perfectly acceptable. When an article is too long for all relevant content it can some material can be split off into a new article. That's routine.    Will Beback    talk    00:25, 12 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Beback misunderstands my complaint, since there is much biographical material of Erhard in this article. NB that I just think all this stuff should be in other articles to the extent it complies with BLP. THF (talk) 09:15, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If there is too much material that's not directly related to the topic then that can be addressed by editing. We wouldn't say "There's too much biographical info about Roosevelt in World War II, so it must be deleted".   Will Beback    talk    01:20, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Sourced information removed by COI editor

 * George Ducas (singer)
 * User:Texasmusicgirl

I'm not sure how to proceed here and would appreciate some input. User:Texasmusicgirl, who has admitted to being George Ducas' publicist, continues to edit his article to remove sourced information. I have pointed her to our COI guidline page and also suggested how she could go about making any proposed changes by obtaining consensus to remove the material, however she simply blanks it out again without discussion. Perhaps if another editor explained why publicists should not be editing their client's article they may stop removing the info and actually discuss the issue? Given the multiple speedy deletion and copyright violation warnings on their talk page, it may not be an easy task. --<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots 17:29, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a Q, where is the DOB cited to? I can see a year but no date. Subject seems to want his article removed from Wiikipedia and you can't blame him for that. He or at least his publicist should ask the foundation, or at least be given the contact details. If the user wont talk perhaps request protection, that may get him talking but it will likely end in tears anyway. Off2riorob (talk) 17:34, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There are a number of sources listing his birthdate. The reference in the article is behind a paywall, so I can't read it from my location, but it is confirmed elsewhere (such as here) (or here, if the above link doesn't work -- SoV). There may be a legitimate reason to have the info removed, but we're certainly not the only source out there - without the publicist actually coming to the table to discuss the matter, who knows? --<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots 17:47, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed, if he won't talk about it he is on a hiding to nothing. Thanks for the link, I am seeing 1966, but still no exact date. The trouble people have (such as this person, I opine..) is there may well be in some obscure place on the www or in some book that reveals there exact DOB and little known birth name, but what wikipedia does is source (obsessively in some situations) the minutiae of a minor notability who released a couple of albums that are actually of little value really and then raise itself to the top of the search engine and publish those obscure details in a single easily accessible location to the whole world...so he was born George Harrison or whatever, its worthless personal detail added just because it can be cited somewhere. His exact DOB is also of no encyclopedic or informational value, really its trivia. Just a couple of personal thoughts as to what may be the cause of the removals. Personally, looking at the last article the publicist edited to, we still have all the real detail, one way to resolve the issue would be to accept the removals ... a bit controversial perhaps but it one option.  Off2riorob (talk) 18:01, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You're not seeing the exact date? Weird. It clearly states "b. August 1, 1966" just under his name, and then again in prose form "Singer-songwriter George Ducas was born on August 1, 1966" in the first paragraph. The name change is also covered in multiple independent sources. Removing it from the article would not accomplish much, and I imagine another editor will eventually come along and add it back in as it is unusual for a biography not to include basic details such as DOB, especially when there are sources for confirmation. I disagree that birthdates and persondata in biography article are trivial, they are specifically listed in "What the opening paragraph should have" at WP:MOSBIO and are a significant way we sort information (via WP:persondata, naming conventions, and categories - e.g. "People born in 1966). --<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots 18:10, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * in this link I don't get any book content? here it says he was born in 1971, but it doesn't look very reliable..People born in 1966, sheez, does anyone even look at those list? no worries. Off2riorob (talk) 18:21, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * So strange, when I click the same link I can see it. It's from All Music Guide to Country (1997) by Michael Erlewine, Page 133. If you Google "George Ducas" and 1966 in Google Books you can likely pull up the page. --<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots 18:26, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yea, the google book issue was brought up at ANI, we are not supposed to use it as a citation because what is seen is different in every country, I still don't get it with Sarek's addition link. I get, no preview available. Off2riorob (talk) 18:29, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I just linked directly to Google books above for convenience, I use the "Book Cite" template for any article citations. The birthdate and corresponding info is also included in "The Billboard Book of Top 40 Country Hits" (2006), "The Virgin encyclopedia of country music" (1998), "International who's who in popular music, Volume 4" (2002), and "The encyclopedia of country music" (1998). Unless the publicist discusses what the particular issues are with Wikipedia including the information that is readily available elsewhere, I can see no reason why it should be removed. --<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots 18:37, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No, go for it. I have personally been unable to access his DOB but I happily accept it is out there.Off2riorob (talk) 18:41, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Nancy Bargar


First, there is no relevancy for why this person should even have a Wikipedia page. I beg Wikipedia to ask user JMyrleFuller on why he created the page originally, and how it meets Wikipedia's standards for having a biography of a living person.

If that can be sufficiently proven, then I would then like to raise the fact that this same user, JMyrleFuller, has edited and reinserted text that was already deemed insupportable. I believe Wikipedia has a "three strikes" rule on re-editing text to incorrect versions, yes? If so, that should be grounds to remove his accessibility of even editing this page.

Moreover, the actual living person of this page does not want, nor did she give, any permission to have this article created. In fact, I can support the claim that this page falls under a libel.

Please answer my questions, prove to me that this page has merit under Wikipedia's conditions for Biographies of Living Persons, and prove to me how a user, JMyrleFuller, can continually edit the page (i.e., "perennial candidate") when that allegation has been proven to be incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.88.54.27 (talk • contribs)


 * Your first question is about the notability of Bargar. It appears that she received press coverage for her candidacies, and as a former county legislator, there are likely to be a considerable number of media references to her. That would appear to satisfy the criteria at WP:POLITICIAN; I think you'd have trouble getting the article deleted on notability grounds.
 * You claim that JMyrleFuller is making "unsupportable" edits, but you haven't provided any evidence of those edits or their supposed lack of supportability. I see no discussion on the article's talk page about that user's edits, nor any discussion on that user's Talk page.
 * Wikipedia does not have a "three strikes" rule. There is a guideline for identifying edit-warring called the three revert rule, but that isn't applicable here.
 * Wikipedia does not need the permission of the subject of the article to create an article about them. Regarding libel, please identify the statements you believe to be untrue; per Wikipedia's policy on libel, we'd remove any libelous statements that are identified. However, it's highly unlikely that the page would be deleted entirely.
 * Can you explain your specific objections to the article? // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 04:53, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've nominated the article for deletion. Every person running for office is going to get some press coverage, that does not make them notable by WP policy or important by common sense. Borock (talk) 13:33, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Tani_Cantil-Sakauye

 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tani_Cantil-Sakauye

I removed this line... Electioneering "She has voted to raise wages to staffers to the tune of $1MM, 3.5% as quoted by the Sacramento Bee, let's kick her out of office."

And made some biographical changes, removing her job a card dealer and extraneous biographical information about other people. The card dealer job was only a matter of months. This is was excessive detail combined with her other experience. Also I added some current committee positions and responsibilities.

Moises Salinas


Potentially libelous material repeatedly inserted that don't comply to the BofLP policy —Preceding unsigned comment added by LiteraryEditor (talk • contribs) 14:52, November 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * IP warned. Favonian (talk) 13:59, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Welcomed the user that filed this BLPN report. Semi-protected the page during BLPN investigation. -- Cirt (talk) 17:10, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Mehrzad Marashi
The article is poorly referenced, and absolutely not correct, completely biased, I would not be suprised if the artist wrote it himself. It shows the artist in the best possible way, and at no point the article is written from a neutral point of perspective. Example? His CD review contains adjectives like 'glorious', 'groovy' or 'good'. Non of them are neutral. I request the immediate delete of the whole article. Thank you in advance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrzad_Marashi
 * article: Mehrzad Marashi

The article is poorly referenced, and absolutely not correct, completely biased, I would not be suprised if the artist wrote it himself. It shows the artist in the best possible way, and at no point the article is written from a neutral point of perspective. Example? His CD review contains adjectives like 'glorious', 'groovy' or 'good'. Non of them are neutral. I request the immediate delete of the whole article. Thank you in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.223.210.64 (talk) 14:48, 10 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Really this needs a re-write or something approaching one. I have made a start, but it probably needs attention from an expert (or at least someone who cares about the topic) because there's at least some of it that I don't even understand.


 * I'm not sure there are any grounds to delete it, however you are welcome to attempt that; see WP:DPR.


 * You could also add any balancing (negative) viewpoints about the artist, but they should be properly sourced.


 * --Demiurge1000 (talk) 15:03, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Welcomed the IP. Moved the unsourced and poorly sourced info from the BLP to the talk page. Semi-protected the page during BLPN investigation. -- Cirt (talk) 17:09, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Laura Callahan
I spotted some blanking here earlier, and semi-protected the article. If someone could take a swing through and make sure that it's BLP-compliant, that would be a good thing. It's mostly negative, but pretty well-sourced. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:51, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Trimmed a fair bit of content that was not actually about her and was coatracking on her BLP and edited the content a bit for undue negative weight. Off2riorob (talk) 16:04, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The page is still semi protected, some cleanup has occurred at the article, appears to be resolved for the time being. -- Cirt (talk) 17:05, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

SPA posting accusations
Two posts to date:, Novangelis (talk) 02:08, 11 November 2010 (UTC)


 * - User talk:Rosario300 was the account - Seems to have been oversighted and single issue warning issued from Administrator Alison. - Off2riorob (talk) 13:05, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It appears that this particular issue has been resolved, for now. Further disruptive behavior pattern would likely result in a block. -- Cirt (talk) 17:04, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

DAVID DAI JENKINS
DAVID DAI JENKINS DAI JENKINS WAS HIS NAME AT BIRTH NOT DAVID. THE SON OF RICHARD JENKINS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.188.99 (talk) 13:59, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about David Jenkins (rugby league), or David Jenkins (rugby)? Do you have any sources for this change? Also, TURN OFF YOUR CAPSLOCK! Ian.thomson (talk) 14:12, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Welcomed the IP user. Semi-protected the BLP page. Not much else to do here, at this point in time. -- Cirt (talk) 16:58, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Marco Rubio
There has been a lot of activity on the Marco Rubio regarding Rubio's religion. Until recently the article was locked but now that it is unlocked an unregistered user has been making constant edits. I have tried to police the article but the task has become daunting. This is the gist of the dispute. As the cited sources indicate, Marco Rubio identifies himself as Catholic. There is no dispute about that. However, a single news report remarked that he has attended an Evangelical Church for the past six years and that he has made donations to that church. As a result of this report many blogs have begun to question whether Rubio is actually Catholic. While I have made sure this ambiguity is noted in the article, I think the best and most accurate policy is to continue to label him as Catholic, since that is how he identifies himself. In addition there is a great deal of evidence calling him Catholic while there is only one line of a single article that suggests that he has attended a non-Catholic church. While I think in general, Wikipedia should not dispute someone's own religious identification, this should especially be true in this case where there is so little evidence to indicate that Rubio is "Southern Baptist", "Protestant" or a "non-practicing Catholic" as one unregistered user has continually edited. I recommend that the article be once again locked and if necessary the problem-editor be blocked from Wikipedia or at least this article. Thanks. Lepanto (talk) 02:18, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * This page has been semi-protected until 15 November. It looks like some users have begun a cleanup process. Please post back here if a longer semi-protection is needed, and/or if some users need to be warned for disruptive behavior. -- Cirt (talk) 16:08, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Ted Kaptchuk


User:Ben.kavoussi is continually adding BLP violations into Ted Kaptchuk and also adding in original research. I have now left 4 warnings (including a final warning) on Ben's talk page. Basket of Puppies 05:16, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * An IP (likely sock) has come along for the ride and readding the same vios. Basket of Puppies  05:18, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * After review, I suppressed the edits as they clearly are violations of BLP policy, and protected the page. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 12:20, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * This particular issue appears to now be resolved. :) -- Cirt (talk) 16:06, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Biography Ibrahim Ben Kargbo
Please u need to contact him for a precise biography, e.g where he was born, where he grew up, schools attended, date of birth etc, i tried though to do some modifications...but please try to get in touch with him so u can get a rich bio of him ...thanks. 41.205.230.2 (talk) 08:15, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * We don't do it like that. If this person is actually notable, then this kind of information is available from published, reliable sources and should be extracted from them. The subject of an article is notoriously often not a reliable source. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  13:33, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I welcomed the above user. I posted notices to relevant WikiProject talkpages to see if anyone is interested in improving this particular article. -- Cirt (talk) 16:05, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Nagesh Kukunoor
db-attack — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.252.70.237 (talk • contribs) November 12, 2010
 * I linked to the deletion template instead of transcluding it - this page at least does not need to be deleted. Looking at the linked article now. - 2/0 (cont.) 14:53, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, that is not an attack page, but some of the statements might violate the biographies of living persons policy. I will do what I can, but you might have better luck asking at Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics, or just editing the article yourself. - 2/0 (cont.) 15:02, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I welcomed the above user. Moved unsourced info from the article's main page to its talk page. Semi-protected the article during this BLPN investigation. -- Cirt (talk) 15:59, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Robert Coles


In July 2009 an individual posted a "Controversy" section and subhead to Robert Coles' entry. In July 2010 I raised serious concerns about. Those concerns were addressed by several editors (the exchange is chronicled on the entry's discussion page). The editorial process yielded, among other things, removal of the "Controversy" subhead. The individual who created the sub-section back in July 2009 did not take part in the discussion. But he has now returned and re-established the "Controversy" subhead. How do you prevent someone from leap-frogging the editorial process and reclaiming an earlier position? Cooperddc (talk) 15:24, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Removed the material. Semi-protected the page. Warned the user. -- Cirt (talk) 15:55, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Bailey Jay
Some more eyes on this one would be good, I think; given the lack of references, and recent activity on the article. Cheers,  Chzz  ► 15:38, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I added it to my watch list, but won't be able to take a deep look at it until tomorrow, drop me a line if there's something that needs to be looked at urgently. --<font color='#66dd44'>j &#9883; e deckertalk 18:57, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Semi-protected, during ongoing BLPN investigation. -- Cirt (talk) 15:50, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. As a point of information, the article is now at AfD as well.  --<font color='#66dd44'>j &#9883; e deckertalk 18:00, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Duly noted; thanks, both, for your attention on this.  Chzz  ► 18:07, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Kyle Baker


User:Peace is contagious, who claims to know the subject's family, is being abusive and insulting at User talk:Peace is contagious after consistently violating a host of policies /guidelines at Kyle Baker. I've provided lins to policies and guidelines and provided links, have offered to work with him, and put out a call at the Project talk page for other editors to come work on this article together with him. Regardless, he continues to be belligerent, to add many uncited personal claims about a living person, and to willfully denigrate Wikipedia policies about WP:RS and WP:COI. Two examples:


 * so what's a 'reliable source' ?? Is that by UR esteemed opinion or Stan Lee's ? or Harvard University President Drew Gilpin ? or Charlie Rose ? or George Bush ? U surely see the 'slippery-slope' nature of that tenet. You do see the 'infinite regress' against dyadic ideals in what ur saying...so if I'm a journalist, I would have to 1st publish something in the NY Times & NOT the National Enquirer b4 I could add that info to WIKI, be it factual or fallacious ? No rule is etched in stone, take a law school class. Do I need PhD, EdD, JD after my name, b4 I may edit wikipedia ?

and


 * here's Cheryl's FB:
 * page (Redacted)
 * (Redacted)

Lastly, here is an example of the kinds of edits he keeps putting back in


 * 2000 saw Kyle's slap-stick, child-like style of humour create a debacle by corporate concern over 'responsible art'. Whilst working on DC's flag-ship of 'Superman' Kyle decided to take a look back at Kal-El's infancy, in "Letitia Lerner, Superman's Babysitter". Kyle applied a Wylie E. Coyote blowing himself up, "CRASH, BAND, BOOM" look @ how a young Kal-El's inquisitive nature, combined with his indestructibility scares the Bejesus outta his unknowing baby-sitter for the night. The issue was printed and the UK editions sent over-seas, but the American issues were destroyed before shipping, when a DC exec feared controversy and litigation over babies and/or children mimicing the 'tragedies' portrayed in the issue: a baby getting shut and 'zapped' in a microwave oven, riding backwards on a run-a-way horse through town, spinning around a ceiling-fan and book-shelf falling on top of him, as the baby-sitter The UK editions were also destroyed, but not before someone in the UK 'rescued' an issue, which then found it's way into Frank Miller's hands. Frank adored the uniquely creative, comical look at the infant Kal-El and the ensuing tale of corporate concern and panic. Mr. Miller nominated the story for a Harvey Award, which it subsequently won. Now realizing their error, DC commissioned an entire graphic novel of off-key and 'what-if' type tales titled 'Bizarro Comics', the cover of which was Matt Groening's interpretation of a slew of DC super-heroes

I'd appreciate any help. He doesn't want to work with other editors, he's behaving in a bullying, highly uncivil way, he reufuses to adhere to Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and his edits are both largely uncited and violate WP:NPOV, WP:SOAPBOX, WP:TONE, WP:V, WP:CITE, and probably others. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:20, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If I had a block button I would block him for you, he has been given all the help possible, well done for that by the way, and he has not shown he is here to contribute in a collaborative manner to the project. The posting of a living subjects private details (now over sighted) is a block-able offense in itself. I have requested deletion of the picture of Kyle Baker he uploaded as claiming to have permission from the subjects sister for an uploaded (Redacted) is a very very weak claim indeed. Off2riorob (talk) 15:54, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I provided the necessary sources via Youtube videos, after his 1st request @ info I had posted. (...and EVEN offered a phone # to verify the use of the photo !!) I've had no other problems in numerous Wiki edits. Tenabre was 'white-washing' my edits & not line-item, he is passive-aggressively bullying my contributions, by hitting the 'UNDO' button & removing ALL of my edits, surely that is not fair or reasonable. I have NOT been 'given all the help possible' ...he referred me to WIKI rules pages, INSTEAD of merely editing my contributions so as to fit policy. Being 37 & almost a college graduate, I do get the jist of legalities, copyrights & editorializing vs. factual info.

Maybe I'm not technically informed enuf on how these 'talk boxes' work, so if there's a phone # or living person I may speak w/ @ Wiki, I would gladly amicably resolve any confusion, I'm 37 & the internet was not part of my elementary education, so ur patience is more than appreciated!

All of his edits are comic book related and he apparently is taking my edit as some sort of 'blasphemy' to his hobby. I humbly apologize for the joke about Tenabre 'living in his parents basement & never having kissed a female human' ...it was out of line & I wish him the best of luck in this life. Thank you for ur time. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peace is contagious (talk • contribs) 18:20, 13 November 2010
 * I've deleted the image. F9 seems to eb applicable, and, of not, then I invoke IAR as a breach of the subject's privacy. has been blocked for 24 hours by another admin.  HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   14:09, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, support for that, there was no permission as required and if he goes and gets it the picture is available on facebook to upload again. Off2riorob (talk) 14:14, 14 November 2010 (UTC)