Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Usernamekiran BOT 4


 * The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. To request review of this BRFA, please start a new section at Bots/Noticeboard. The result of the discussion was

Usernamekiran BOT 4
Operator:

Time filed: 19:47, Thursday, August 13, 2020 (UTC)

Automatic, Supervised, or Manual: automatic

Programming language(s): AWB

Source code available: AWB

Function overview: find and replace wikilinks

Links to relevant discussions (where appropriate): User talk:Xaosflux

Edit period(s): As required

Estimated number of pages affected: variable, based on task

Exclusion compliant (Yes/No): No

Already has a bot flag (Yes/No): Yes

Function details: I became active again at closing page move discussions. If there is a DAB page involved in the moves, sometimes the bot (RussBot) us unable to fix the links, as they are not double redirects. Recently, the issue came up with RM at Requested Talk:Chani (character), but the links to be fixed were very few. Today, similar issue came up with Talk:Bell Satellite TV. I had to update somewhere around 450 pages, from "Bell TV" to "Bell Satellite TV"; as Bell TV was moved to Bell Satellite TV, and Bell TV was converted into a DAB pointing to Bell TV should become a DAB pointing to Bell Satellite TV, Bell Fibe TV, and Bell Mobile TV. In this case, the RussBot is not an option, as there wouldn't have been a double redirect; and no bot removed mistaken repetition fully-automated bot will know what link to choose from the DAB page.

My method/task is pretty basic, and simple. I added basic find and replace rule: find, and replace it with. So far I have updated more than 150 articles, and there have been no issues. I have been checking the diff in AWB, and hitting ctrl+S; without any issues.

I am aware this is a very basic task. But there is no bot at WP:RM with this function. There is a possibility that some other bot might be approved with this task; but that would mean I will have to wait till the bot operator comes online. Whereas if I had the approval, I can do it whenever the need arises. As this is a basic, and uncontroversial task; I thought I should ask about it. Regards, —usernamekiran (talk) 19:47, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * PS: This method also handles previously piped links: special:diff/972777535. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:49, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion
What's the general logic / criteria for the task? Would this be automatic or assisted somehow (i.e. triggered by moves, or human-supervised, telling it 'fix those specifically') ? &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Basically, I would be making list in AWB after closing the RM, but before performing the actual move. I apologise for selecting bot's mode as automatic above. The operation would be just like manual AWB editing, with the only exception being "bot flag" to avoid hitting ctrl+S for a lot of times. It would also be convenient, and time saving. —usernamekiran (talk) 23:18, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * For the record, what you just described is "automatic mode". Primefac (talk) 23:51, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Then where do the bots like MuzikBot, and archive bots fall in? —usernamekiran (talk) 10:51, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * They are also fully automatic. Primefac (talk) 19:32, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Alright, then let's have a trial and see if bolts come off loose. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 23:22, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This is a classic case where context matters. There's a whole wikiproject whose goal is fixing links to dab pages (WP:DPL), and there are various tools they have developed over the years to help with aspects of the work. Sadly, a simple find and replace will not work, because the links are by definition ambiguous, so you can't know the intended target unless you examine the context. And you can't assume that the previous primary topic will always be it either. Fixing links in some very narrowly defined contexts can be helpful, like in New York City -> New York City), but situations where it's needed to do this at scale are quite rare. Also adding that, contrary to what was suggested in the Channi RM linked above, closers of RM discussions are not expected to fix dab links resulting from the moves. – Uanfala (talk) 10:19, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi. I am aware of the issues that can arise, like the ones you mentioned. Like I stated in the comment above, I will be making list in AWB (and then I will check the list, and the edits once before making the actual edits), once the list/edits are okay; only then I will save the edits. It will not be a "blind" task where I will make list of "what links here", and hit save. —usernamekiran (talk) 10:50, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes they are, see WP:FIXDABLINKS - "Before moving an article to a qualified name (in order to create a disambiguation page at the base name, to move an existing disambiguation page to that name, or to redirect that name to a disambiguation page), click on What links here to find all of the incoming links and repair them." Narky Blert (talk) 20:56, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the link, . This is indeed what that page says. This is an abomination we should be thankful is never followed in practice – otherwise many moves wouldn't happen because the editors involved wouldn't ever have the time and inclination to fix those links and we would be stuck with all the bad primary topics for perpetuity. – Uanfala (talk) 21:38, 22 August 2020 (UTC) I'm having a look at the talk archives and I'm not surprised that this piece of nonsense doesn't appear to have been discussed much. The one discussion there was on the topic, however, is clear that closers of RM discussions should neither be required nor expected to fix those links. – Uanfala (talk) 21:44, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * FIXDABLINKS is idealistic and unworkable, even penal. If there is only a handful of links, it does make sense for the closer to fix the links, as being quicker and simpler than asking the proposer to do so and checking to see if they've done it. The problem is with moves which break several hundred or several thousand links. (Example: a move involving one of the Jammu and Kashmir pages at the beginning of June broke over 2,000 links; two-and-a-half months later, 495 are still broken, see DPwL.) Is is unfair to expect an editor who has made an administrative change reflecting a WP:CONSENSUS should have sole responsibility for cleaning up the mess; especially prior to making it, which is what FIXDABLINKS says.
 * That 2014 discussion is still relevant. It includes a proposal which I came up with independently, that the onus should be on those who supported the move (and in big cases, there will always be more than one of them).
 * I once proposed a change to a guideline; I won't be making that mistake again. My legal training taught me that if one party finds a clause ambiguous, it is ambiguous and it needs to be redrafted. I found the wording of a guideline ambiguous; some agreed, others didn't, and the result was WP:NOCONSENSUS. Narky Blert (talk) 07:00, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * FIXDABLINKS is vague as to who should fix the links. In my opinion, it should be the person(s) requesting the move, rather than the closer who carries out the mechanics of moving the pages but may not be a subject expert.  All too often, it gets left for a passing gnome.  Certes (talk) 09:37, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, proposing changes to guidelines can be a pain (I would think even more so for like me who lack any legal training), and it sometimes may be easier to just ignore antiquated guidelines than attempt changing them, but oh well, there we go: Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation. – Uanfala (talk) 14:06, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I've seen that discussion, I intend to comment in detail once I've gathered my wool and rowed up my ducks. Narky Blert (talk) 18:31, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * a comment in general: I am okay with fixing the links from my normal (non-bot) account if there there are few pages to be fixed. If I am running the task from bot account, I will make sure there are no issues after my edits. I am requesting the bot flag only for the cases where there are a lot of page/links to be fixed. For example, in case of Talk:Bell Satellite TV: in step one, I created the list, after the pre-parse mode; there were around 450 articles to be fixed. In step two, I skimmed that list. In step 3, I made around 150; and in second run, around 50 edits with checking the difference before saving the edit. All were without any technical problems. I performed the remaining ~250 edits without checking the diffs; and after the entire session, checked a lot of them at random. None of the diffs I checked had any problem. What I am trying to say is, I will make a logical judgement before, and during step 2. I will not be changing the links without getting to know the context. The only difference in regular/normal AWB run, and this bot run would be the last step of saving the edit manually vs automatically. Given my previous experience of moving pages, and editing wikipedia in general; I can figure out where to use caution, and how to handle things. I am looking at this trial run as means to check only the technical accuracy of my method. —usernamekiran (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the detailed explanation. Just a clarifying question, what proportion of links do you manually examine the context of? By examining the context, I mean looking at the article text that has the link and reading the sentence in which the link is found (possibly also the sentences before and after). – Uanfala (talk) 16:10, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That is a very broad question. The solution, and context begins with the page that is being moved. The Bell TV was the easiest one. There was not much scope for linking to the incorrect page (the incorrect page being the one that is to be moved). Biographies are also easy. Till now whenever I came across such instances, I used to skim the page which is to be moved. That gives you a general idea what the topic is, and where can you expect the links to come from. Also, after making the first list, I remove disamb pages from the AWB's list; and edit it manually. Most complicated are the ones of communities/castes; sometimes incorrect process can lead to a (intended) group being linked to a language (eg: Tamils (people) with redirect Tamil people; then there is Tamil language, and Tamil script. A complete list can be found at the dab Tamil). I do have a method for weeding out the pages that might get incorrectly updated, but I don't know how to put it in words. I do it when I see the "what links here" list of wikipedia, and/or in the AWB list. Its based partly on hunch, and mostly on logic (dont know how to put this logic in words). The only thing I can say is, I will make the edits carefully; and there wouldn't be any issues. Not trying to brag, but according to xtools I have moved 1,787 pages till now. That number is exaggerated as it counts one page swap/round robin move as 3 page moves. Assuming I have moved 400 pages, and performed this task (the one in discussion) a few times, there have never been any issues (however, there were two instances during the early days as page mover, where my closure was not perfect; but almost nothing after that). And I will try to keep things that way —usernamekiran (talk) 18:42, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the detailed reply, but I still don't see an answer to my question. Should I take it that you don't intend to examine each link in its context? In such a case, this task should definitely not go ahead in its present form. To decide the target of the link, you need to examine the link itself and the text around it, it's not enough to guess from the article title. You can use AWV or another tool in combination with whatever heuristics you choose, as long as you manually examine each link to be fixed: either before fixing it, or in the diff afterwards. A process that gets it right 99% of the time does not lead to a net improvement for readers: a link to a disambiguation page is merely an inconvenience that adds an extra step to a navigation path, an incorrectly disambiguated link on the other hand completely cuts off navigation to the intended article and also introduces a factual inaccuracy in the text. If you examine each and every link to be fixed, then it's up to you what technical means you use to save your edit; but whichever way you do it, you shouldn't be doing it under a bot flag, as this would be a manual edit that needs to invite the same amount, and type, of review from page watchers as any other manual edit. – Uanfala (talk) 19:10, 21 August 2020 (UTC) Adding that you can ask for more feedback at WT:DPL. – Uanfala (talk) 20:35, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with checking the edits. However, I cant understand why are you so much reserved with this task. If [ABC] gets moved to [XYZ], and if we have to divert the incoming links from ABC to XYZ from [foo], and [lorem]; provided there are already wikilinks in foo, and lorem pointing to ABC, I dont see much room for error that you are talking about, if any. —usernamekiran (talk) 08:25, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * We're talking about moves involving primary topics, right? Say, ABC to ABC (foo) and then ABC (disambiguation) to ABC. Your assumption seems to be that all links to ABC will be intended for ABC (foo). This is not necessarily true, and in fact it is very rarely the case. There will be links ABC where the target is not ABC (foo), but ABC (bar) or ABC (buz). See for example the incoming links to Gaddi, an article about an ethnic group of India: there are some links intended for it (like at Kareri Lake), but there also links not intended for it (like at List of biblical names starting with G). – Uanfala (talk) 11:41, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thats what I was trying to say when I gave the example of Tamil. Anyways, like said earlier; I don't have any problem checking the edits. —usernamekiran (talk) 11:58, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * When an article moves and a disambiguation page usurps its title, this is because that title is ambiguous. Many links will intend the moved article but some will have other meanings.  It is necessary to examine each link manually.  Requests to automatically change links which have been vetted by human eyes occasionally pop up at WP:AWB/TA, and I'm sure many editors use semi-automated tools for similar purposes.  (I prefer WP:DisamAssist.)  A bot to do that might be useful.  However, I would oppose an automated change where links have not been checked manually or even where a sample has been checked.  This would simply turn known unknowns into unknown unknowns, for example by replacing Foo by Foo (computing) where Adeline Foo was intended.  I recommend automatically generating lists of potentially good changes, then applying them selectively with manual supervision.  Certes (talk) 12:09, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I did a small amount of the cleanup after Talk:Vinyl, when a redirect was turned into a DAB page. That broke about 2,500 links. Only about 10% of them were intended for the original target, and the other 90% were mostly split three ways in roughly equal amounts. Eyeballs were essential. Narky Blert (talk) 21:05, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Another example is New York, which required checking and changing 119,000 wikilinks, of which more than 12,000 were not for the original target. (I did a tiny fraction of the work.) Certes (talk) 21:55, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Once my problem with AWB resolves (cant start it up) I can fix some links to a page from WP:DPL as bot trial, or maybe some other page. I know this is different than the proposed task involving RMs, but the task is same. Would it be possible to run the task on a page from DPL? —usernamekiran (talk) 09:25, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That sounds good to me, if you identify a DPL case where all links are intended for a single target. Do you actually need AWB for this?  WP:JWB can perform many AWB tasks, though you will have to get the list of pages to fix from elsewhere such as Special:WhatLinksHere.  Certes (talk) 09:32, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * No, I meant page links intended 2/3 pages. —usernamekiran (talk) 09:36, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * (ec) DPwL would be an excellent source for a test-run, it's updated twice daily, and you could choose the number of links from 1 upwards.
 * A thought. If a fix isn't obvious, could the bot be programmed to add a disambiguation needed tag? It's the DABfixer's last resort, and it's remarkable how often problems in Category:Articles with links needing disambiguation get fixed. Narky Blert (talk) 09:44, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I will look into DPwL as soon as I get on a computer. disambiguation needed tag can be added, but that would be just me manually adding it hehe. Seriously speaking, I think all that would get more clear after bot's 4-5 heavy runs. —usernamekiran (talk) 09:58, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I picked up Manny Perez from DPwL, but all the incoming links to the disamb were intended for only one article. I can easily fix the disambs of the likes of Chuuk, Stefan Marinović, and Wyn Jones. All of them have very few incoming links, but that's not the reason. As long as the targets are easily identifiable, I can do the task through AWB/bot; no matter how many links pages are listed on the disamb page. For example, Cruel Summer has only 5 entries, but all of them are songs. For now, I don't know how to approach such situations, but I can come up with some idea/solution if I keep working on the task. Tomorrow I will work on any two articles from above, and then we can have a bot trial for the remaining third article. note: there would be no difference in the working method at all, except for the automated saves. —usernamekiran (talk) 18:17, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not the best person to consult about these newfangled tool and bot thingies. I fix links to DAB pages the way my father taught me, which is the way his father taught him, and his forefathers taught him, and so on time out of mind - using craftsman-knapped flint tools and low cunning.
 * It's the bulk stuff - DAB pages with 10+ links, say - which is a problem. It's mind-blowingly tedious work, and I try to avoid it. Props to those who do firefight such links. Narky Blert (talk) 19:37, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Done with Wyn Jones, and Stefan Marinović. No technical issues found. There were a few articles where sortname was used. I fixed it one instance manually, and then a couple through AWB. Then there was this instance where first, and last names were used the other way around. Then there was this instance where initial was used. But all these edits will not be edited even automated account. I will be fixing one link manually (through non-bot account), at the same time I will be making the lists for other targets using AWB. The doubtful/problematic articles would be added to one list for manual editing, other lists would have no chance of error. Links to Chuuk have been fixed by someone. I can fix the links to Big box; there are 4 targets, and 109 incoming links. I am ready to do this with automated/bot account. Pinging not sure if I should ping the other editors as well. —usernamekiran (talk) 16:38, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

BAG note Just as a note, I won't have time to check this for a couple of days/a week-ish so if some other BAG member wants to take a look, feel free. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:04, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Since my last comment here, I have been working on a custom/hybrid module for this task. I got input from David at their talkpage: special:permalink/975938658. I tested this module in my sandbox, and it worked successfully: special:diff/975939820. I tested this module on the Gaddi disamb. All the edits were as expected, including special:diff/977067060. The only problematic edit was special:diff/977066941, where it changed  to  . I updated my module, and fixed the issue: special:diff/977067363. I should have already anticipated that though. Anyways, I have updated the module to handle this scenario. In short: if there are many pages to fixed, I will create the lists first, and then I will handle it through bot account. In case there are not many pages, or creating the lists are not worth it, then I will do that task through non bot account. But now I can positively say that if I do it from bot account, there would be no mistakes. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:45, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The Gaddi run has introduced a number of grammatical errors. Replacing Gaddi with Gaddis doesn't work in all contexts as the first word is singular and the second one – plural. I've checked the first 10 edits, and the following contain this error:   . – Uanfala (talk) 20:04, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes. If I was told sooner, I could have easily done that. I generally ask this stuff during/while closing the RM (eg: Talk:Neurolathyrism). In either case, there were no incorrect targets, and there were no technical errors :) —usernamekiran (talk) 20:34, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, editors are expected to figure this out by themselves as part of their preparation before fixing the dablinks, regardless of the method they're going to use (I only pointed that out to you after I noticed an error washing up on my watchlist). This particular kind of error can be avoided if you don't change the visible article text, but use piping in the link (though of course, there are cases where linking directly is preferable). – Uanfala (talk) 21:28, 6 September 2020 (UTC) Adding that I've now fixed the 13 such errors introduced in this run. – Uanfala (talk) 22:39, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

through my alt ac with this move. I checked all the diffs, no issues found at all. Sample diffs: sample diff 1, sample diff 2, and 3. —usernamekiran (talk) 18:58, 10 September 2020 (UTC) I am willing to accept requests which I can handle without any problems. I can handle doubtful requests with non-bot account (or the bot account, but with non-bot mode). If approved, I was thinking about putting a normal discussion thread similar to special:permalink/978981536 on WT:RM, and WT:Page mover; with a real long DNAU —usernamekiran (talk) 03:17, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * So, um... why did this not get run with the bot?
 * Second question, which I only just realized now since I haven't really been paying much attention (since Headbomb's been the primary BAG) - is there going to be some sort of request process, or is this just so you don't have to hit "save" a bunch of times when you close an RM yourself? Primefac (talk) 22:02, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Headbomb had approved the trial when the account didn't have bot flag. I was not sure if I should have used the bot account, so I went with non-bot account. I am also not sure if the bot needs to be enabled somewhere (from your side) to be able to edit the mainspace.

BAGAssistanceNeeded Techie3 (talk) 06:48, 29 November 2020 (UTC) says they can restrict the bot to non-problematic cases, so let's see that in action. One thing thought, concerning  → , I really don't believe those are needed. Especially given Jonathan David might become ambiguous in the future. Same for  → , which is straight up an error. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:25, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmm. thoughts on this? As far as I can see, there's a few arguments for/against the consensus and technical viability by editors for this task, some concerns seem more valid to me than others, though I'll admit I have exactly zero involvement in dab pages. I've advertised this to WT:DPL for comments, as well. I've only checked a couple diffs but I have a few thoughts. First, proposal says "replace  ", I presume you mean   (so it won't match , for example)? Second, edits like Special:Diff/977744374 or Special:Diff/977743962 are introducing the subject's first name, when it seems the article content explicitly is choosing to use last names only? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:46, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Just based on this note it's starting to sound more like a CONTEXT issue... let's see how well this trial goes. Primefac (talk) 15:53, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * thank you.  →   was part of the list. At the time, I thought it would be better to use the actual target page, instead of redirect. Also, should I use the bot account for trial runs, or normal account?  Yes, I meant , sorry about that. Regarding use of only last name (or partial name of target page), such instances can be handled in next runs, where only last name is required. Like mentioned in the above comments, I will be needing to create different lists in AWB, one list can be created for partial names.  I will use the same conventions which are already used in articles, the only context-issue here would be the one pointed out by Unfala above — regarding targets. I will be avoiding such tasks. —usernamekiran (talk) 16:02, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I've said this multiple times - it's a BRFA, it's a bot trial, so use your bot account. Primefac (talk) 16:03, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Bot account, yes. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Little concerned over the technical soundness here given the David error, though, and have a gut feeling the replacement may be overcomplicating things. Kiran can you publish the module code here? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:14, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I am a little confused, not sure how  →   is an error. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The link originally displayed as "David", after the edit it displays as "Jonathan David". The display of "David" was intentional on those articles, because the scoreboards used players' last names only. As I understand it, this bot task should never be changing how a link displays, it should only be changing the target (removing the pipe when the display = target is merely a technical point). ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:13, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Whether to write According to Einstein, ... or According to Albert Einstein, ... is not something the bot can decide. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:35, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

If you'd like something to practice on from the most recent update of Disambiguation Pages with Links, try Argos (3 links in, each needing a different fix (and one of them a MOS:OVERLINK), DSS (3 links in, all the same, but you'll need to find which one on the DAB page it is), Elizabeth Ferris (1 easy fix, 2 will need redlinking) and Saint Mary's College (1 easy fix, 2 might be soluble by googling). Narky Blert (talk) 15:17, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

D Status? Noticed the bot hasn't made any edits since September; do you still plan to proceed with this task, kiran? If so, could you please address concerns above, particularly clarification on the task's scope and ideally post the module code? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:51, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello. I apologise for my absence. There were two separate deaths in extended family, and a wedding in between. And each of it consumes 20 days. Regarding the conext issue, I will go with the style already used in the article. I will shortly respond to. Courtesy ping to. —usernamekiran (talk) 16:48, 17 January 2021 (UTC)


 * No problem, take as long as you need; was just making sure you still planned to proceed with the request. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:54, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks. I was not close to the dead guys, nor the bride. But I had to be there because of the norms. First my computer started behaving erratically, then that funerals and wedding. I have been very occupied, and away from computer. I think i will be back in 5 to 7 days. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:15, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Multiple reasons. If this were just a case of the bot operator not being around, I'd say "Expired", but the scope and implementation have also been questioned and every time I read through it I question whether this is a good task for bot and operator to be running. Primefac (talk) 14:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. To request review of this BRFA, please start a new section at Bots/Noticeboard.